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>> No. 411294 Anonymous
15th June 2017
Thursday 6:16 pm
411294 Grenfell Tower
Why haven't we got a thread on this yet? It's going to prove a turning point in Britsh history.
130 posts omitted. Last 50 posts shown. Expand all images.
>> No. 411500 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 7:53 pm
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>>411498
We don't live in a meritocracy, mate, sorry to break it to you.
>> No. 411501 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 7:56 pm
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>>411499
>Statistically, someone is always going to end up on the scrapheap.

Exactly. If you knew that if you didn't try hard at school or put the effort in in some other way or you'd end up on the scrap heap then you'd have to be DOUBLE STUPID.

It's not as if the bar is set unattainably high.
>> No. 411502 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:01 pm
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>>411500
Ah, yes. The local council estate scallies couldn't find a single job doing basic administrative work because of the nationwide old boys network for public school poshos making everything everywhere a closed shop. Come off it, lad.
>> No. 411503 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:04 pm
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>>411501
Personally if I didn't luck out in life I'd probably just kill myself rather than playing a game that's been rigged for decades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdZp5iw-UEo

I mean if I really luck out I could be reborn as a feudal peasant, where social relations are unfair but honest.
>> No. 411505 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:20 pm
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>>411498
Exactly. Which is why repeated studies have found that things such as stack ranking in the workplace doesn't work, because it doesn't actually reward hard work.

The people who end up at the bottom aren't there for lack of effort. A good many of them are there because the system has actively cheated them out of advancement. Saying people who end up at the bottom should have worked harder is like saying Whitney Houston shouldn't have taken cocaine in the first place.
>> No. 411508 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:35 pm
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>>411505
Lad, trying hard to get ahead isn't about how much effort you put into your job. If you're working hard and being overlooked then anyone with half a brain would look to apply for more senior jobs elsewhere. If you want to stay at the same company then you need to put some of that effort into making the right impression with the right people.

You can mope about the system being stacked against you or you can try to do the best you can with the hand you're dealt. Honestly, there is no excuse for being a pauper.
>> No. 411509 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:35 pm
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>>411502
I think you're interpreting the term meritocracy a bit too narrowly.

You seem to have an idea that if 1 million people are unemployed, they have all put in less work than every single person who doesn't find themselves in that situation. If some economic shock causes a recession and unemployment increases by 500,000, the people who lose their jobs and are unable to find other work were the 500,000 people who were putting in the least effort. This is a self-evidently absurd proposition.
>> No. 411510 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:39 pm
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>>411508
>If you're working hard and being overlooked then anyone with half a brain would look to apply for more senior jobs elsewhere
Then we return to the same problem: there are only so many more senior jobs.
>> No. 411511 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:43 pm
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>>411497
>which state requisition would be.

No it wouldn't. Legal experts have come out over the past few days to very bluntly state that Corbyn's knee-jerk reaction would be completely illegal and there is not a damn sight of that changing anytime soon.

If however you and your sticky-fingered pals push through legislation it would almost certainly be gummed up by Protocol 1 Art.1 of the ECHR and the side of the legal profession that doesn't have shit for brains.

>>411502
>>411505
Why can't you both be wrong?

The question of deserving and undeserving poor has been rumbling since 1351 and is much more complicated than "just try harder lol" -as particularly the New Poor Law demonstrates. At the same time the opposite extreme pretends that free will doesn't exist and goes down that old route you see in criminal law where a murderer blames his background when 99% of people with the same upbringing are reasonably law abiding people.
>> No. 411513 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:46 pm
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>>411508
When you take a position such as this, it's very tempting to say the only mistake the underclass in this country has made is not going all 1917.
And naturally when our benevolent vanguard party jail you for being a counterrevolutionary kulak, you'll have nobody but yourself to blame for arousing suspicions.
>> No. 411514 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:56 pm
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>>411509
I'm just saying they're a bit thick, that's all.

The system may not be fair but poor people are, on average, more likely to be stupid than the rest of the population at large. The two premises are not mutually exclusive.

>>411510
Then perhaps a change of career is needed. Either way, if you've progressed to the point that the number of senior roles is limited and a rarity then it's safe to say you're unlikely to be one of the paupers we're talking about.
>> No. 411515 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:57 pm
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>>411508
>>411514
>If you're working hard and being overlooked then anyone with half a brain would look to apply for more senior jobs elsewhere
>Then perhaps a change of career is needed.
If you're posting dreck like this then you clearly aren't capable of higher reasoning, which means you are stupid and should have tried harder at school.
>> No. 411516 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 8:59 pm
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>>411511
>No it wouldn't.
Yes it would, because it wouldn't be occurring otherwise. :^)
>> No. 411517 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:01 pm
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>>411511
That's like saying that murder can't happen because it's illegal. Murder and possession of a firearm are both crimes, but that's not going to stop someone who's stood over you pointing a gun at your head.

Plus all that ECHR stuff doesn't matter anyway, because we're leaving the EU and repealing the Human Rights Act and all the other evil checks and balances that Brussels and Strasbourg have imposed on us, innit.
>> No. 411518 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:01 pm
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>>411515
At least I'm not poor, though.
>> No. 411519 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:02 pm
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>>411514
No, you're saying there's "no excuse" for being poor. Personally, I don't think anyone should live in poverty, even if they happen to have been born with a lower than average IQ or denied a decent education.
>> No. 411520 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:06 pm
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>>411518
Hence your idea that meritocracy exists is bollocks.
>> No. 411521 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:08 pm
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>>411517
The right to property in the ECHR has an exception for the public interest anyway.
>> No. 411522 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:31 pm
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>>411519
Oh, I'm not saying people deserve to be poor. That'd be wrong. I'm simply pointing out they're thick for not taking advantage of the myriad of opportunities to climb out of poverty. They shouldn't be painted as wretched unfortunates absolved of all personal responsibility. "They can't help being poor, it's not their fault."

>>411520
No, lad. I didn't say trying hard at school is the only way to get ahead. One of the most successful people I know isn't overly bright but he's a sparkie and very good at it too.

Also, if I'm not overly bright and not poor then that shows how low the bar is set and how thick those at the bottom really must be.
>> No. 411523 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:35 pm
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>>411516
I appreciate it is hot but I have no idea what you're trying to get at here. Requisitioning property is something that has principally happened during the World Wars with statutory backing and even then was a legal clusterfuck to say to least.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303142

>>411517
Er no we tend to have the rule of law in this country. Although Parliamentary Sovereignty comes into it the government would have no luck trying to do things without appropriate legislation as has been discovered many times.

>Plus all that ECHR stuff doesn't matter anyway, because we're leaving the EU and repealing the Human Rights Act and all the other evil checks and balances that Brussels and Strasbourg have imposed on us, innit.

Even if we strike out the HRA we'd still be liable under our commitment to the ECHR but it would just take longer and be more costly for everyone. The current Tory plans to leave the ECHR (which will be done after the next election at the earliest according to even Mother Theresa) also call for it to be done so after a new 'Bill of Rights' is drafted that I don't see waiving the right to property.

>>411521
The right to life also has derogations but that doesn't mean the government can just start killing people willy-nilly. What you would need to prove is that the public interest is sufficient to overrule a fundamental freedom which I don't see happening given even Pye v UK on adverse possession turned on negligence regarding limitation periods.
>> No. 411525 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:47 pm
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>>411522
>Oh, I'm not saying people deserve to be poor.
No, lad. You can say that they're poor and it's their fault but that doesn't mean they deserve it, in the same way you can say you smoked weed but didn't inhale.

>Also, if I'm not overly bright and not poor then that shows how low the bar is set
No, it doesn't, but that you wrote that sentence unironically does show that you are indeed "not overly bright".
>> No. 411526 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:49 pm
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>>411522
>"They can't help being poor, it's not their fault."
If they're thick, they probably can't help that either. IQ has a significant genetic component.

90% of the time people try to play up personal responsibility, it's to downplay societal responsibility. You're personally responsible for refusing a job in a labour shortage situation, you're not personally responsible for not being fucking superman when there's a huge labour surplus.
>> No. 411527 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:56 pm
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>>411523
On the other hand: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20053244
>> No. 411528 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 10:03 pm
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>>411523
>Er no we tend to have the rule of law in this country.
No, we really don't. Any legislation that Parliament sees fit to pass authorising requisitioning can come into force immediately and could be enforced immediately, regardless of whether it conflicts with ECHR, as the passage of DRIPA and IPA will demonstrate. In the case of DRIPA, there was an explicit court judgment that the things it was trying to do were incompatible with ECHR.

>What you would need to prove is that the public interest is sufficient to overrule a fundamental freedom
The public interest is what the government of the day says it is.
>> No. 411529 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 10:40 pm
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>>411511
>Protocol 1 Art.1 of the ECHR
Well we won't be bullied by these fake courts after Theresa gives them the boot anyway.
>> No. 411530 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 10:45 pm
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>>411523
>I appreciate it is hot but I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.
"If there was any real risk of the government being penalized for taking people's houses, they wouldn't do it."
Mostly just a smart-arse comment. (In hindsight I realize it can also be read as "They're already doing it!")
>> No. 411532 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 11:06 pm
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>>411527
The distinction on prisoner voting rights is that Strasbourg rightly refuses to enforce anything beyond saying a blanket ban is a breach. Added to this consultations remain ongoing on how to resolve the stalemate even as the government has now traditionally put out contradictory positions.

https://fullfact.org/law/votes-prisoners-politics-versus-human-rights-law/

>>411528
Let's take a look at what I actually wrote shall we:

>If however you and your sticky-fingered pals push through legislation it would almost certainly be gummed up by Protocol 1 Art.1 of the ECHR and the side of the legal profession that doesn't have shit for brains.

What we would need (as you admit) is a piece of legislation that explicitly lays out a right to requisition someones property in these circumstances at a minimum i.e. the rule of law. We'd spend a few months back and forth with the Lords doing this too and maybe have constitutional questions raised. Then time will be spent with the case running up the national court system (not so immediate after all - even if it is quickly dismissed).

Once that is done and the government starts snatches houses we go up the fast track towards Strasbourg and end up paying out our arses in compensation because property is a quantifiable product. God help us if any of the other EU members states citizens got caught up in this too because then we'd have an already angry ECJ to contend with on top of the madness.

I appreciate we are all eager to have a tedious argument over where the judiciary sits but there is no need for it. Parliamentary Sovereignty is referred to as a legal myth because there is no way it is a reality and Corbyn has so fair failed to outline how he intends to do this with even some words to support squatting. Because he is a populist like that.

>The public interest is what the government of the day says it is.

Evidently not.
>> No. 411533 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 11:27 pm
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>>411532
>What we would need (as you admit) is a piece of legislation that explicitly lays out a right to requisition someones property in these circumstances at a minimum
Erm, yes. What was your point again?

>Then time will be spent with the case running up the national court system
What case would that be? Any legislation that gets on the books could be enforced immediately. The courts in this country have no power to suspend legislation, and if they do declare a bit of legislation to be unlawful Parliament can just ignore them (as they did with DRIPA). By the time the courts even agree to hear the case, the property has already been requisitioned and people have been housed in it. To use the original analogy, the gunman has already pulled the trigger and has Crown immunity.

>Once that is done and the government starts snatches houses
No. As pointed out, the government will already have started snatching houses because nobody can stop them from doing so - any legal action after the legislation is passed (and it could surely be pushed through as secondary legislation not requiring a vote) would be after the fact. There is already form for this in s.5 Public Order Act and s.44 militant daft woggery Act, both of which continued to be enforced (in the case of s.44, until its repeal) in ways the courts had repeatedly declared unlawful. Not that this is a problem, because the first required hurdle would be that the owners have been deprived of the enjoyment of their property, and this test fails because any property involved would be unoccupied and therefore not neither being used nor bearing rent.

>we go up the fast track towards Strasbourg
The only "fast track towards Strasbourg" is the one made of concrete and steel. Those cases would have to join the queue of tens and hundreds of thousands of claims at the back like everyone else.

>Evidently not.
No, lad. Not "evidently" not, no.
>> No. 411534 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 11:48 pm
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>come to .gs expecting Grenfell thread full of links to articles, interviews, death estimates etc

>find a cunt-off over legalities in progress

Never change, .gs
>> No. 411535 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:03 am
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>>411534
I'm still fascinated by that resident's blog thing. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

Despite it getting a reasonable amount of attention I'm surprised it hasn't been seized on more strongly. Maybe nobody wants to get into a cunt-off over libel law no matter how plausible and damning the claims sound. I mean, you can't just go around comparing local authorities and weird little not-quite-public-not-quite-private things like the KCTMO to the Mafia. That's unambiguous libel. To the mafia.
>> No. 411536 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:19 am
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>>411534
58 confirmed and they're still looking. There, are you happy now? Some people ...
>> No. 411539 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 1:19 am
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>>411536
>they're still looking

Fuck me...and I thought I had skeletons in the closet.
>> No. 411540 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 1:31 am
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>>411539
Bear in mind that they've got around 12-16 floors of this to contend with. They've managed to at least get to the top floor, but they haven't done the really thorough part yet.
>> No. 411546 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 9:37 am
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>>411540
What condition would a lot of the bodies be in at the temperatures the fire would've burnt at? I get the strong impression that a lot of the bodies will have been more or less vaporised and a final death toll would only be an estimate. Given that some of the tenants were immigrants of whatever status, some may have vanished into the ether in other ways.
The tenancy list/housing manifest compared against survivors will probably be the best bet.
>> No. 411547 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 9:46 am
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>>411546
Overcooked tandoori.
>> No. 411548 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 10:00 am
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>>411546
I'd also bet that a fair few of these properties have been sublet out on the down low.
>> No. 411552 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 11:15 am
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>>411548

Nailed on.
>> No. 411553 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 11:15 am
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>>411548

Nailed on.
>> No. 411554 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:20 pm
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>>411546

>Given that some of the tenants were immigrants of whatever status, some may have vanished into the ether in other ways.

Maybe some inhabitants took the opportunity to "disappear" following the fire. In a fire like this, some bodies will never be found or identified. So it's an ideal opportunity to go missing if you've got debt or other problems.

I think I read about a few people who did this after the 9/11 attacks. They were supposed to be inside the Twin Towers that day, but by way of sheer luck they weren't, and knowing that many bodies would never be found or identified, they "went missing" and got a new identity or whatever. Some even tried to cash in their life insurance through their spouses who were in on it.

The Presumption of Death only legally applies in the UK after somebody has been unaccounted for for seven years, so that's still quite a long time.
>> No. 411555 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:20 pm
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>>411496

>In the year 2017 in Britain there is really no excuse for being poor,

I hear this bullshit trotted out by rich cunts, those who claim they "made something of themselves" all the fucking time.
If these people had one ounce of empathy and had truly made their way "up from the bottom" they wouldn't talk like this as they know that personal circumstances beyond a persons control can often cake a person's life in shit through no fault of their own.
>> No. 411556 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:28 pm
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>>411555
When you've finished rehashing this debate do you want to bring up the legalities of the government seizing property again? I'm sure we all want to go over these two topics again.
>> No. 411559 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:40 pm
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>>411555

Why don't we just bring back Victorian poorhouses.

Being poor back then was considered a character flaw, and as such, poverty put you on the same level of disregard by the upper classes as criminals or the mentally insane. Because for one reason or another, all of which founded in you as a flawed person, you had failed to make a proper human being out of yourself.
>> No. 411560 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 12:58 pm
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>>411559

Is that a hook or a ship's anchor you're wiggling about?
>> No. 411561 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 1:00 pm
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Y'know for all I enjoy people finally talking about increasing public spending, I kind of wish more attention was thrown on the KCTMO. I get that general vibe of "weird sort of private organisation operating public services that shouldn't actually exist" from it. Until we abolish that sort of private involvement, I'm sceptical that there will be results to phone home about from increasing investment in public services.
>> No. 411562 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 1:08 pm
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>>411561

This piece offers another way of looking at it:

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/392856-london-fire-taxpayers-militant daft woggery/

(yes, it's RT, and all that, but it does have a point.)
>> No. 411566 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 3:41 pm
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https://youtu.be/GoKdsMB1064YDg

Video of firemen on the way to the incident, asking "How the fuck is that even possible?". Just sums up this whole catastrophe.
>> No. 411569 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 4:51 pm
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>>411566
Video unavailable.
>> No. 411570 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 5:22 pm
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Someone in Cardiff appears to have started a tribute fire on some grass. Coverage so far seems to be about six posts on the twitters.
>> No. 411572 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 7:37 pm
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>>411569
https://streamable.com/ods06
>> No. 411573 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 7:41 pm
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>>411572
Cheers.

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