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>> No. 413317 Anonymous
22nd October 2017
Sunday 2:07 am
413317 Free speech V2
Good news that UK universities will be deregulated unless they allow free speech under new plans. Hopefully more of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UwVD1Efqbk
21 posts omitted. Last 50 posts shown. Expand all images.
>> No. 413350 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 1:23 pm
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>>413348

An intriguing point but the core of his argument stands which is that Eric Pickles was no platformed which is an absurdity if you want to have a remotely balanced exchange of ideas.

It paints a narrative that no platforming is purely a means to an end, a cheep maneuver to silence your opponent deployed primarily (at least at this point in history) by left wing factions rather than for the protection of anyone. Which in that context talking about leftwing factions doubling down on ideological purity and becoming an echochamber is a sound follow up.
>> No. 413351 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 2:02 pm
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>>413346
Your ideas are not dignified in the slightest but here we all are.
>> No. 413352 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 4:35 pm
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>>413348

If you can't see the connection between Momentum and the NUS, I suggest that you attend either of their conferences. The two organisations are so deeply intertwined as to be almost inseparable.
>> No. 413353 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 5:23 pm
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>>413351
Go on, engage with the ideas, show everyone that they're without merit. Don't just say it, don't just cut off avenues to conversation.
Debate me. I'm sure someone will learn something and the world will be better off for having had the discussion.
>> No. 413354 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 6:19 pm
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So racists should be allowed to "debate" in unis, but converts that want to come back after the fall of ISIS should all be killed because the ideas in their heads are dangerous.

Impressive.
>> No. 413355 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 6:41 pm
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>>413354
It's almost as if the premise of this thread, as well as the government's argument, were complete sham.
>> No. 413356 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 7:09 pm
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>>413354

I don't recall anyone mentioning any racists. But even if they did, yes the bloke down the pub who talks ignorant shit is several ranks up on the ladder than a war criminal in terms of tollerablity in a liberal society, how is that a shock to you?
>> No. 413357 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 9:29 pm
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>>413356
Yes, I'm sure Abu Hashish's widow is a war criminal that should face the shooting squad.
>> No. 413358 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 10:13 pm
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Maybe, maybe not, but that 12 year old deffo' was so I'm glad the Yanks killed him. Who know's what he could have become?
>> No. 413359 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 11:48 pm
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>>413346
>The effort required to create bullshit is much greater than that required to clear it up.

You'll find it is easier for others. Whether that is because you fail to grasp how to string together a coherent argument or because your position is simply illogical is anyone's guess.

Anyway you seem to have missed the otherlads argument that restricting debates to what authority considers legitimate stifles society and is not something you would be cheering if the shoe were on the other foot. Furthermore simply pushing things out of view is not going to address the pressures themselves and even emboldens them as every idiot with a whistle seems to have done with Yiannopoulos.

>>413354
>>413357
Bit late in the year to be putting together straw men isn't it? I thought we were discussing free speech in universities not the complex issues involved with citizens travelling abroad to live in caliphates.
>> No. 413360 Anonymous
23rd October 2017
Monday 11:51 pm
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>>413359
>Bit late in the year to be putting together straw men isn't it?
... no? The perfect time for it.
>> No. 413361 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 12:22 am
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>>413359
It is factual. Every Brit other there needs to die.
>> No. 413362 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 12:28 am
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>>413359
So free speech should only be allowed in universities, and not anywhere else in society? Got it.
>> No. 413363 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 12:50 am
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>>413362

Said absolutely no one.
>> No. 413364 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 12:59 am
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>>413359
I'm not sure there's much complexity to "they must be killed". Killed for what is in effect holding radically different views from the majority. So much for freedom of speech, eh?
>> No. 413365 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 1:21 am
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>>413353
I'm too lazy, but I'm not asking the mods to ban you for your absurdity.
>> No. 413366 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 2:22 am
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>>413359
>Whether that is because you fail to grasp how to string together a coherent argument or because your position is simply illogical is anyone's guess.
It's because I enjoy arguing in bad faith and almost never change my positions (in the short term) on the basis of argument beyond a small amendment to the position held before. I do however lie about reality to make my positions appear stronger than they might otherwise look, if I think I can get away with it. especially on the internet. (either outright, huge lies about documented historical events not happening*, or smaller disingenuous moves like using data from foreign countries and handwaving why we can assume the UK is the same - while knowing it isn't.)

If I can do it, anyone else can do it. Certainly, those in power do it. All political parties do it. Hell, I'd assume it's almost a natural part of our worldview.

>Anyway you seem to have missed the otherlads argument that restricting debates to what authority considers legitimate stifles society
A pretty irrelevant point to universities. Angry students aren't the overriding authority in society.
>and is not something you would be cheering if the shoe were on the other foot
I probably wouldn't care. "Ah, we'll allow you to talk but not take you seriously" is a strategy that works perfectly fine against moderate and sensible ideas. It's only when you have bastards that appeal to people's stupidity, or risk offending someone, that there's any reason to question using the strategy. There's no need to censor the powerless. Would public discourse in the UK be significantly different if Paul Krugman saying "austerity is bad" was censored rather than just blithely ignored or shuffled to the back of a Guardian column to die? How many people know or care to begin with?

>Furthermore simply pushing things out of view is not going to address the pressures themselves and even emboldens them as every idiot with a whistle seems to have done with Yiannopoulos.
He just seems like an irrelevant twat tbh, even within the context of Trump's rise to power. All the "dangerous" ideas UK-side (i.e. aligning with Brexit/Drunken Racists) were in plain sight and in the broadly tolerated mainstream of discourse (even in the US, Trump basically said what was previously dogwhistled). They were looked down on as rot, but they were present. The reason people didn't think we'd vote leave wasn't because Tories were being no-platformed at universities, nor the refusal to have an honest debate on the merits of the EU (on the contrary, we had the "Let's get a token Drunken Racistsper onto Question Time to poke people" approach), so much as it was down to a general technocratic approach to politics. (i.e. "the polls say we'll win and they were 'right' in Scotland") Similar story with Hilary. What would more debate have done? Perhaps increased the number of people voting for Trump/Brexit until it was a large enough (likely) majority for opinion polls to pick up?

Something about the Scottish Independence referendum run-up being a genuine national debate and not really doing very much goes here. I'm not sure whether to defend it as "how a debate should be done" or note that it's the one example of such a recent debate where the "anti-status-quo" side played somewhat nice [i.e. not racist, publishing a big book to set out their vision - if short on detail of how to achieve it**.] and their reward was falling short of victory, while the pro-status-quo side was rewarded with a new status quo where all Scotland can do is talk about their constitutional position.

Going to tie this up by being purposefully incendiary and say: In conclusion what we really ought to do is make newspapers publish corrections in the same size and prominence as their original lies. Frontpage headline bullshit? Enjoy your frontpage headline "sorry, that thing about Bananas was bullshit."

*not the holocaust nor anything of that magnitude, for reference.
**in contrast to say, leaving the EU which could be anything you wanted it to be. From free trade to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968 to a new social democratic consensus, someone would argue for it. (Many of them to whom I'm sympathetic, lest my overall approach read as being arrogantly pro-EU.)

can you tell i'm procrastinating doing actual work?

>>413365
what you mean is that i'm right and you're just afraid to engage in an open and honest debate, guardian reading plastic coffee cup thingy holding macbook owning kent labour students attending "is there a discount" asking studentlad.
>> No. 413367 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 11:16 am
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>what we really ought to do is make newspapers publish corrections in the same size and prominence as their original lies. Frontpage headline bullshit? Enjoy your frontpage headline "sorry, that thing about Bananas was bullshit."
This is an excellent idea.
>> No. 413368 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 1:55 pm
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>>413317
Tory MP's Brexit demand to universities 'offensive' - Lord Patten - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41735839

>A Eurosceptic Tory MP has been accused ofcompiling a "hit list" of university professors who teach Brexit courses.
>Chris Heaton-Harris has written to universities asking for names of such professors and the content of their lectures.

Thank goodness for these great defenders of academic freedom, eh?
>> No. 413370 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 2:50 pm
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>>413368

Christ you have the brain of a child. Everything is oversimplified black and white, good verses evil isn't it. Just because one side has fault doesn't make the other side right.
>> No. 413371 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 4:29 pm
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>>413370
Either you support freedom of speech or you don't. You can't say you support freedom of speech in certain scenarios for some viewpoints you agree with.

If you can't see the fairly obvious shenanigans going on, then maybe it's you that has the brain of a child.
>> No. 413372 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 4:52 pm
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>>413371

I wasn't tring to have it both ways at all what I was implying was that one tory backbencher doesn't undermine a government intiative addressing the issue of institutionalised censorship. But apparently you can only deal in absolutes.
>> No. 413373 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 5:15 pm
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>>413372
Such is the nature of freedom of speech. Also, the "one rogue X" meme was old when the NotW were pulling it.
>> No. 413374 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 6:24 pm
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>>413372
"NOT REAL TORIES."
>> No. 413375 Anonymous
24th October 2017
Tuesday 7:42 pm
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Nothing to say; nothing to fear.

Nothing to hide; nothing to fear.
>> No. 413387 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 5:59 pm
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As a devout leftist, I can only wish that every single fucking university in this country and every wanker student enrolled at one be burned to the ground in the night.

I seriously fear for the future of the world we live in, where the political spectrum decades from now will consist of perpetually triggered LGBTQ snowflakes on one end and the kind of neo-liberal corporatism straight out of Robocop on the other.

We're already half way there. Families are going into the cold this winter starving, too skint to put the heating on, at risk of eviction, because of the shambles that is Universal Credit. Meanwhile, instead of putting up a fight, the opposition is busy purging thought-criminal MPs who allegedly called some slag a slag 15 fucking years ago.

Some of the posts in this thread hardly fill me with confidence that things will improve. It's going to be utterly fucking dystopian in the future if you cunts have your way.
>> No. 413388 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 6:26 pm
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>>413387
>instead of putting up a fight, the opposition is busy
How's life under that rock of yours?
>> No. 413390 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:13 pm
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>>413388

You mean how they're letting May fucking plough on with her trainwreck despite an almost unanimous commons vote? Totally effective opposition there.
>> No. 413391 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:16 pm
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>>413387

>As a devout leftist, I can only wish that every single fucking university in this country and every wanker student enrolled at one be burned to the ground in the night.


Nah, mate, you are plainly just a mouthy cunt, so if you could just spare us and stop chatting pure shit I think I speak for everyone when I say we'd be reasonably thankful. Stop spending so much time on the internet too, I can tell you need to from your meme spouting.
>> No. 413392 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:35 pm
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>>413390

What exactly is it that you expect them to do? Every time it comes before the House for a vote, they vote against it, as does pretty much every other party not in government. Are they supposed to superglue the doors to the Aye lobby or something?
>> No. 413393 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:39 pm
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>>413391

You could just no-platform him if he bothers you that much lad.
>> No. 413394 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:39 pm
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>>413387
> Families are going into the cold this winter starving, too skint to put the heating on, at risk of eviction
Survival of the fittest B1064lad
>> No. 413397 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:52 pm
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>>413393

He opened with "every single fucking university in this country and every wanker student enrolled at one be burned". Am I supposed to debate that?

>Hmm, but what if we didn't burn hundreds of thousands of people to death because you've assumed they're a monolithic other you're upset at..?
>> No. 413398 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:55 pm
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>>413397
I find nothing wrong with that line of thought.
>> No. 413399 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 7:57 pm
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>>413397

One only has to visit Sheffield on a weeknight night to be persuaded he might have a point.
>> No. 413401 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 8:29 pm
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>>413392
It wouldn't surprise me if Jim Callaghan survived more than once by pulling that one.

Can't find it now but there was a great article with MPs talking about the kind of stunts they used to pull in the commons back in the 1970s. On one occasion I'm almost certain (I think it was the nationalisation of British Aerospace or something.) Labour MPs broke agreed pairs to vote in favour. In the 1979 confidence vote, the Ulster Unionists openly tried to sell their votes for a gas pipeline.
>> No. 413402 Anonymous
25th October 2017
Wednesday 8:49 pm
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>>413401

At least he didn't drag a man from his deathbed to vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_vote_of_no_confidence_in_the_Callaghan_ministry
>> No. 413418 Anonymous
26th October 2017
Thursday 8:01 pm
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>>413402
tbh think it would've been kinder for the guy to do it, apparently he was devastated he could've saved the government and didn't get the chance.
>> No. 413437 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 9:21 am
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I wish I understood the politics that are being discussed in this thread. I feel like I fit into the category of being the racist pub drinker that has been mentioned twice.

Although not racist, I've been called it for moaning about the Muzzy kids that give me shit while I'm drinking a beer outside my local.

How do I get to the point where I can read through political discussion without being confused gents? Are there a list of books that political science or philosophy degree students have to read through and understand? I'd be happy to give them a tackle.

I didn't finish secondary school. I don't feel great about it.
>> No. 413440 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 11:00 am
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>>413437

I mean, just stop saying "muzzy" and you're on your way.
>> No. 413441 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 11:03 am
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>>413437

The most common degree for aspiring cabinet ministers is Politics, Philosophy and Economics at Oxford. At the link below, you can find the first year reading list. If you ask at your local library, they should be able to order you a copy of anything on that list. Alternatively, you may be able to download it from LibGen.

http://www.new.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/sites/all/files/PPE%20New%20College%20freshers%20Reading%20List%202016_draft_word_14Apr2016.pdf

https://libgen.pw/

>I didn't finish secondary school. I don't feel great about it.

Don't feel bad about it, as it's almost certainly not your fault. You're clearly an intelligent and articulate person. Our education system does a really piss-poor job of helping bright kids who are struggling with difficult circumstances. Far too many talented people are allowed to slip through the cracks. I'm one of them - I became badly depressed in my teens and left school with a handful of bad GCSE grades. After spending years bouncing between crap jobs and the dole, I went to university at the age of 30. I was absolutely terrified at first, but I liked it so much that I went on to do a PhD.

If you're thinking about returning to education, have a look at the Open University or the Access to HE diploma. You can study part-time and it won't cost you anything up front.

http://www.open.ac.uk/

http://www.accesstohe.ac.uk/
>> No. 413442 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 11:10 am
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>>413437
Recognising you are uneducated and that you actually don't know better than the experts puts you far ahead of most. There's no shame in it.

But yeah if you don't want to be called racist stop expressing racist thought. You get shit from kids because they're kids, not because they are from eskimo families.
>> No. 413443 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 11:13 am
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>>413441
Actual Professor?
>> No. 413444 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 1:34 pm
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>>413437

>I've been called it for moaning about the Muzzy kids that give me shit while I'm drinking a beer outside my local.

>How do I get to the point where I can read through political discussion without being confused gents?


These two statements are not connected. And yes, Shamanism is a cancerous culture.
>> No. 413450 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 7:12 pm
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>>413440
I've got a bad habit of calling things silly nicknames. Didn't think it was too big of a deal. I'll give it a miss I guess.

>>413441
Incredible, I didn't expect such a nice and helpful response. Thanks a lot mate! I think I'm going to give this a full on go. Much appreciated! I've got a couple of Bob saved up so money shouldn't be a barrier in the short term. Brilliant stuff.

>>413442
In hindsight, I'm a fully grown man complaining about kids. Quite childish. I don't care about their race though. My whining isn't racist. They tend to sing songs mocking people who drink alcohol on their way home from school as they pass the pub. I enjoy a quite pint or 5 on payday, kills the mood a bit you know. And it's not something I can do frequently. I assumed the hostility came from Shamanismic teachings, parents maybe.

>>413444
So I've spent 20 minutes reading about actual shamanism, interesting stuff. Incredible related art.
>> No. 413452 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 7:13 pm
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MUD IN THEIR BLOOD
SHIT ON THEIR SKIN
THEY KNOCK ON OUR DOOR BUT WE WON'T LET THEM IN
>> No. 413453 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 7:17 pm
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>>413450
Adolescent kids are mostly dickheads, I don't know if you've noticed that or not?
>> No. 413454 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 8:05 pm
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>>413450
What kind of songs?
>> No. 413455 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 8:58 pm
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>>413452

You're thinking of Muk, the Pokemon, lad.
>> No. 413456 Anonymous
30th October 2017
Monday 9:08 pm
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>>413437
>I wish I understood the politics that are being discussed in this thread.

It's low-level academic politics and one lad is deliberately screaming for attention. Best not to worry yourself because it is 100% bollocks that not even the majority of students care about, which is probably why it's bollocks.

>Are there a list of books that political science or philosophy degree students have to read through and understand?

Try reading 'Justice: What's the right thing to do?' by Sandel. He writes in a pretty straightforward way and you avoid getting caught out by works everyone references but nobody has properly read out of laziness.

>>413441 is right about trying to OU. It is what I did before going into regular university and it was ace - turns out nobody else has any idea on what they're talking about either.

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