>>2345

I don't think any major publisher would touch something so difficult - in the sense that the moral stance of the book would be difficult for someone of contemporary normal reading habits to grasp. Big books are often gimmicky - and 'cleverness' is also a gimmick. The game is also pared down to strict niche marketing. I think the likelihood of such a book being on some house's tick-list is very remote indeed.

>>2346
There were a few books out recentlyish that were popular and about child molestation.

>>2347

Would you say they were equally 'challenging' as 'Lolita'?

>>2349
I have no idea, popular books usually annoy me so I avoid them

>>2350

Well I hadn't heard of them, either. I suspect they'd be less nuanced, however, given that the majority of contemporary popular lit at times resembles the level of discourse found in 'Eastenders' - shrill, histrionic and a brute (if sentimentalised) traduction of the facts of reality.

>>2336
I saw a review comparing the book to American Psycho, and the book's cover seems to be deliberately echoing the movie version. So i'd recommend American Psycho if you haven't read it yet.

You might also enjoy The Wasp Factory and Complicity by Iain Banks.

>>2336
Judging by the reviews, I think you might like a bit of Will Self. He's very 'wordy', so you might need too read it with a dictionary in hand (Like I do), but you're rewarded with unrivalled filth.
I don't like comparisons, but the content and style is like William Burroughs, minus the gayness.
Pick up a book of his short stories or 'My Idea of Fun' to start off with.

>>2341
The stars have aligned. You mentioned Will Self, the OP is a German. Will Self recently gave a very impressive lecture about WG Sebald a German writer who lived the last 30 years of his life in the UK. I really don't think Sebald is the kind of author that OP is after (I saw Rings of Saturn described as an "elegiac rumination", and I think that's about right) but others may enjoy the transcript of the lecture: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article7003221.ece or a recording of it: http://www.bclt.org.uk/index.php/events/sebald_audio

ban was a mistake, sorry

>>2235
'The Room' is possibly the grimmest Selby although I found 'The Willow Tree' almost unbearably painful to read in its anguished compassion. I cried like a fucking baby at the end of that...at my age and all...

Kafka's 'The Trial' age 16 was life-defining for me.

It's probably not going to compare to some of the others in this list for sheer depressive storytelling, but, nonetheless.

George Orwell - 1984. The final acceptance and despair at the end of the book was the most profoundly depressing thing I had encountered at the time.

>>2165 Johnny Got His Gun - we were forced to read this in school - totally depressing book about a WWI soldier with his arms, legs, and face blown away, and who can only communicate by morse code.

>>2236 as far as crowds go, Mackay had it sussed 150 years ago

Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds

http://www.archive.org/download/extraordinarypop014178mbp/extraordinarypop014178mbp.pdf

>>2326
I'm reading that at the moment, and it's wonderful. Wordsworth have a cheap edition out at the moment that's well worth picking up for those who want the physical book.

>>2239

Not much worse than most "classics" and ancient sagas about watery tarts flinging cutlery or swans buggering women or princes playing games with each other.

I consider these to be another art, just as plays (and this most resembles a radio play) and operas are not judged on the same criteria as a novel.

>>2328
If that's the depth of your reading of classics then I pity you.

>>2331

I challenge you to find anything more worthy of being called a classic than a swan buggering a woman.

>>2332
I'm not disputing that.

>>2332
A woman buggering a swan? With a magical strap-on phallus forged by Vulcan?

Saged for wilful stupidity.

Ragtime by E.L Doctorow. BEAAAUDDDYY of a book

Only Forward by Michael Marshall Smith. I remember wanting to use it as a test on self-proclaimed psychics - if they can predict from the first few chapters the kind of book it will actually turn out to be, then I'd be impressed.

Try 'House of Leaves'

>>2268

I always hate in reviews, where the reviewer thinks they're being spoiler free by telling you there's a twist but not what saying what it is. Once you're aware of one it's usually not difficult to guess it, ruining the whole thing.

>>2287

Truth. That's why I almost never read a review for such an item properly. Only the most brief of opinions. A thumbs up or down almost. Anything more and it's spoiling the fun.

>>2320
I think there was a new one that was released with quite a fanfare in the past couple of years. There was a long article in the New York Times or something talking about this new translation, the Iraq war and war generally. I'll see if I can find it.

>>2320
In fact I can't find it, perhaps i'm remembering something else. Anyway, I found this nice comparison of different translations of the opening lines:

"Rage--Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles,
Murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many souls,
great fighters' souls. But made their bodies carrion,
feasts for dogs and birds,
and the will of Zeus was moving towards its end.
Begin, Muse, when the two first broke and clashed,
Agamemnon lord of men and brilliant Achilles."
-Translated by Robert Fagles

"Sing, O Goddess, the anger of Achilles, son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a heroes did it yield a prey to dogs and vultures for so were the counsels of Zeus fulfilled from the day on which the son of Atreus, king of men, and great Achilles first fell out with one another."
-Translated by Samuel Butler

Message too long. Click here to view the full text.

>>2320
Also, I highly recommend Christopher Logue's version of the Iliad, War Music http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Music . Almost more memorable than "proper" translations of the original.
http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoem.do?poemId=1531
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/000545.php
http://www.griffinpoetryprize.com/shortlist_2002.php?t=5#excerpt
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16599
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15247

>>2320

For years it was Richmond Lattimore's translations which were viewed as the best. Chicago imprints for both the Iliad and the Odyssey. I like them.

Thank you everyone.
I'll be looking into several of the mentioned versions.

I'm not the person who wrote that, but I think to write something off as merely a publicity stunt is neglecting the fact that every single cultural work ever produced has been just someone looking for attention.

>>2309

I would argue not just looking for attention, and then we'd be into a big ruck about artistic merit and we'd bore the shit out everybody more than we already have, so I guess we should just give it a rest and assume our points have been made.

Do people really do anything at all in public if it is not for recognition or attention?

>>2311
eat, breathe, urinate, tie shoelaces, industrial sandwich assembly, quietly slip some money into the head of a plastic Labrador, pick up litter and put it in the bin, clear snow out of your driveway, buy a packet of quavers..

>>2312

I think you know what I mean, and at least four of them could easily be attributed to the desire to appease the expectations of society.

>>2305
_{hmm i'm getting deja vu - have I already posted a very similar thread? Perhaps at Britchan. I think I even used the same picture}

http://www.youtube.com/v/QjcOK2T0lPo

>>2272

Lucky charm and some jerky, methinks.

>>2272

Jerky, Biscuit and the charm

Shall we say jerky and the charm then?

>>2280

I will vote that.

>>2280
2275 here, thirding that motion.

Haha true.

Going Postal is my favourite discworld book, it's excellently written. I never saw Hogfather but the above analysis of Ridcully sums up my mental image of him. He hunts and hikes, etc, is paranoid.

I love discworld. I'd love some tv movies based on the Watch, they're a great concept, such a deep possible cast as well. Actually any one of us would make an excellent Fred Colon.

>>2246
The Watch have always been my favourite cast of the Discworld novels. A well-produced Watch movie might complete my life, provided I am not disappointed by the casting of Sam Vimes.

Whilst we're on the subject of Discworld, does anyone else think Josh Kirby's art was shite and Paul Kidby's is far superior? Kidby actually has realistic, consistent well-defined characters in his drawings, whereas Kirby's was just a busy splurgy mess.

>>2265
I actually prefer the Kirby ones, they're interesting to look at.

>>2269
I think Kirby was a moron. He literally gave Twoflower four eyes in his Colour of Magic cover, and his depiction of Rincewind seems to change in every instance. Kidby on the other hand seems to have actually read the book he's illustrating and put some thought into it.

Oh for fuck's sake. Halfway through reading last month's Wired last night and the screen dies on me. Top 1/8th is fine, the rest is a blurry mess.

Back to pulped trees, enough of these pointless, hateful little machines.

Normally before a book gets pulped they try and get rid of them for an absolute pittance. I'll stick with dead trees.

I need something that-

- won't break easily. I'm clumsy, I sometimes drop things. A book could survive being dropped on a hard surface, but an ebook reader seems rather more fragile and likely to die in such circumstances

- won't need recharging at awkward times. I don't have a smartphone or any tech newer than three years, because only the old stuff actually holds charge adequately

- is cheap. I don't spend £200 on books in a year, because I borrow extensively from friends and make good use of libraries. What I do buy is generally bought in sales or as gifts for friends and family. £200 is two or three years of books, half of which aren't even for me.

A Reader just isn't worth it. It's overpriced, doesn't apparently work as well as a book (what with the formatting issues and all that), isn't as durable, and doesn't have the same comforting heft that a big fat volume of Kim Stanley Robinson's works does.

>>2266
The leather cover on the PRS-505 is surprisingly bouncy and impact resistant. Added to that, it currently contains 221 books of various lengths, I have almost 7,000 more I can put on from my other computers. That's more than two or three years of books. Even at a fiver a pop per book, that £200 is well spent. I don't even want to start thinking about the weight of carrying around 200+ books.
I can "lend" books to friends and still read them myself, and the battery charges surprisingly fast with only a USB cable.

My phone's over 5 years old.

A real book can last fifty years. I can have a hundred of them open at once if I need to research and flick between things. They can be in full colour when needed and with A4 and larger prints or fold-outs. There's no DRM, there's no battery issues, the print is always readable even in the brightest of sunlight, there's no worry about future-proofing or losing your collection when the company goes bust or the device breaks or they withdraw your collection or right of access.

The ease of access with real honest-to-god books and tactile touch simply cannot be beaten or replicated.

What are you expecting? A love interest? Jimmy having to save the world? Do all stories have to follow a three-act format?

>>2248
Thats not what I'm saying, I love the book and I know that there is something more that I'm not seeing, I'm just asking for help to uncover that.

>>2249

Take Proust's advice.

I've never read her but I understand Atwood is meant to be quite good.

Chomsky's got alot of stuff on this. Try interventions/rogue states/what we say goes.

I don't know.. Hannah Arendt?

Also, do you remember that anti Israel international meeting in Iran a couple of years back ? I remember a bunch of anti-zionist fundamentalist rabbis went. Might be worth digging out a few news articles.

_{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein}

>>2243
That group was called Neturei Karta. They criticise Israel and Zionism from solely a theological perspective, which seems to be exactly that the OP is looking fo'.

Where should a new reader start in this? Is it okay to go with published order?

>>1886
When in doubt, always go with the published order. The audience it was aimed at got them in that order, there's no way it'll be improved by going in any other order.

I've ordered the first book then. I'll see how it goes.

>>1888

It is on its way.

If it turns out to be crappy, I'll be sure to post a long whine about it here and blame everyone else for my purchase and time spent on it.

(just kidding, it sounds good and I'm looking forward to it)

I have recently read "A Song of Ice and Fire". It was not bad in some ways there were some things that stood out and are potentially off-putting for anyone else.

Repetition. "He felt half a man/babe/boy". Used far too often, along with other phrases and words. Even worse was "Almost a man grown" as in "He was 6 years old - almost a man grown". U WOT? This follows on neatly to the regular paedo scenes, which could be rather disturbing when the boy or girl really got into it.

George RR Martin is one dirty old man.