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178271782717827
>> No. 17827 Anonymous
7th February 2019
Thursday 9:40 pm
17827 Indian man to sue parents for giving birth to him
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-47154287

>A 27-year-old Indian man plans to sue his parents for giving birth to him without his consent.

>Mumbai businessman Raphael Samuel told the BBC that it's wrong to bring children into the world because they then have to put up with lifelong suffering.

>Mr Samuel, of course, understands that our consent can't be sought before we are born, but insists that "it was not our decision to be born".

>So as we didn't ask to be born, we should be paid for the rest of our lives to live, he argues.

>A demand like this could cause a rift within any family, but Mr Samuel says he gets along very well with his parents (both of whom are lawyers) and they appear to be dealing with it with a lot of humour.

>In a statement, his mother Kavita Karnad Samuel explained her response to "the recent upheaval my son has created".

>"I must admire my son's temerity to want to take his parents to court knowing both of us are lawyers. And if Raphael could come up with a rational explanation as to how we could have sought his consent to be born, I will accept my fault," she said.


Difficult to say really who is being the smuggest cunt in this.
Expand all images.
>> No. 17829 Anonymous
7th February 2019
Thursday 11:47 pm
17829 spacer
>And if Raphael could come up with a rational explanation as to how we could have sought his consent to be born, I will accept my fault," she said.

As there's no rational way to seek a dog's consent to be fucked in the arse, I suppose I have the freedom to fuck dogs in the arse.

Terrible argument for a lawyer to be making.
>> No. 17830 Anonymous
7th February 2019
Thursday 11:57 pm
17830 spacer
>>17829

>As there's no rational way to seek a dog's consent to be fucked in the arse

There will be indications though whether the dog is ok with you bumming it or not.

When I was a younglad, one of the council estate kids at my school told me that he and his brother wanked off the neighbour's Rottweil one afternoon. Broken Britain.
>> No. 17831 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:00 am
17831 spacer
>>17830

Coma patients, then.

I'm fucking someone without their consent, I don't really care who or what - and this indian lad is helping me get away with it.

There was a pervading rumour that a lad at school used to fuck his dog. His surname was Barker so I always assumed it was definitely made up, but years later he got arrested for filming dog porn.
>> No. 17832 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:08 am
17832 spacer
Considering he's well educated enough to be informed about anti-natalism and has the spare time to dick about like that it's pretty reasonable to assume that his lawyer parents are fairly well off and the only person who's going to really lose out of this is him losing some of his inheritance to the court system, fair enough. It may set some interesting precedents if he wins.

>Mr Samuel says his decision to take his parents to court is only based on his belief that the world would be a much better place without human beings in it.
The anthrocentric nature of mainstream anti-natalism puzzles me. Humans aren't special. There'd still be suffering without us. How much more or less is really impossible to say. If you genuinely want to end suffering you need to sterilise not just the planet but the entire universe. If you sincerely feel a moral imperative to end all suffering and not just your own, then you should throw in your lot with the accelerationists and aim to start an aggressive hegemonising swarm; a universal grey goo scenario that will destroy and prevent the emergence of all and any forms of life. As edgy as his behaviour may seem at a glance, it's actually quite quaint; parochial.
>> No. 17833 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:17 am
17833 spacer
>>17832

>The anthrocentric nature of mainstream anti-natalism puzzles me.

I'm kind of more puzzled at the thought that that's really "a thing" to begin with.

And really, where is this shitbag's gratitude? His parents changed his nappies as an infant, they afforded him a decent enough upbringing that he could become a businessman (in India, no less, where without well to do parents you pretty much end up a penniless slum dweller). And how does he repay them? By being a mopey manchild who posts daft self portraits with the words "Why must I work?" on the Internet.

What a fucking dickhead.
>> No. 17834 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:28 am
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>>17833

The idea that life is suffering isn't a particularly uncommon one. Not having a go or anything but you're sounding a tad sheltered.
>> No. 17835 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:29 am
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>>17833

And thus you miss the point of antinatalism entirely. I have some books you can read on the subject, although given the banal, vapid, vacuous, and inane content of your post I can only presume that they'd be far beyond your meager comprehension.

>>17832
> then you should throw in your lot with the accelerationists and aim to start an aggressive hegemonising swarm; a universal grey goo scenario that will destroy and prevent the emergence of all and any forms of life

Reminds me of the Auditors of Reality in the Discworld series of novels.
>> No. 17836 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:31 am
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>>17835
It's meagre, not meager lad.
>> No. 17837 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:48 am
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>>17833
If I break your legs, I don't deserve your gratitude just because I pushed your wheelchair around for a bit afterwards.
>> No. 17838 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 1:00 am
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>>17837
Breaking your legs was an act of aggression against you. I'm trying to think of how conception might be the same, but last I heard sperm and ova don't really have much in the way of sentience.
>> No. 17839 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 1:05 am
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>>17835

>And thus you miss the point of antinatalism entirely. I have some books you can read on the subject

Never change, .gs.
>> No. 17841 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 1:20 am
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>>17835
Antinatalism is good for nothing other than academic debate and literary analysis. Anyone who adopts the position in any seriousness is a mental case.
>> No. 17842 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 3:09 am
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>>17841

It gives me a good moral excuse to glass you in an Essex pub car park just because you're suffering anyway.
>> No. 17843 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 8:41 am
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>>17841
Good for? Is this some sort of meta-utilitarian ethics, judging the use of different philosophies? Have a word with yourself.
>> No. 17844 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 9:05 am
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>>17838

If you adopt a puppy knowing full well your house is full of bear traps, would you not consider that an act of aggression?

The same can be said for conception. You're fully aware of the pain and suffering humans must endure, yet you decide to bring another baby into existence. It's cruelty.
>> No. 17845 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:13 pm
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>>17844
>If you adopt a puppy knowing full well your house is full of bear traps, would you not consider that an act of aggression?
No. There, that was easy.
>> No. 17846 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:16 pm
17846 spacer
PR stunt.
>> No. 17847 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 12:18 pm
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friedrichnietzsche1-2x.jpg
178471784717847
>>17841

Finally, somebody with some sense.

It's a bit like taking Nietzsche's philosophies too seriously. It can lead you down a very dark path.
>> No. 17855 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 1:56 pm
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I knew a guy who got a vasectomy at 21 because he deemed it cruel to bring another person into this shitty world. Seems like a sad way to live.
>> No. 17858 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 1:58 pm
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>>17855

Now that's proper nihilist shit.
>> No. 17861 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 2:46 pm
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>>17855
People are actually doing this because having less children is currently thought to be the best way to help the planet. Respect to him if that's his reasoning.
>> No. 17862 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 2:56 pm
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>>17861

Sure there will have to be fewer children on the planet in the long run.

But does that have to include my own children? Why can't everybody else stop having kids?
>> No. 17869 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 4:04 pm
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>>17845

Why isn't it an act of aggression to introduce someone something into an environment you're aware will cause them pain and eventual death with absolute certainty?
>> No. 17871 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 5:35 pm
17871 spacer
>>17869
Because that's literally not what aggression means, you dense mong.
>> No. 17873 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 5:45 pm
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>>17871
It would be an act of aggression to do it to a person.
>> No. 17874 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 5:46 pm
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>>17871

Semantics is your argument? Call it what you like, violence, delayed violence, putting someone in deliberate danger, assault via beartrap, we're just arguing synonyms. It's still malicious.
>> No. 17876 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:00 pm
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>>17874
But it isn't, is it?
>> No. 17877 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:01 pm
17877 spacer
>>17873
No, it wouldn't. Now fuck off, Humpty.
>> No. 17878 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:04 pm
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>>17877

So you're saying kidnapping and torturing someone to death isn't aggression or malicious?
>> No. 17879 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:08 pm
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>>17878
No, I'm saying deploying enlisted troops to a war zone is not an act of aggression against those troops. It might be an act of aggression against the opposing power, but that's not at issue here.
>> No. 17880 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:37 pm
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>>17879
So when officers sent soldiers they personally disliked into no-man's land, or on otherwise suicide missions, that wasn't an act of aggression?
>> No. 17881 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:40 pm
17881 spacer
>>17880
I heard the IOC rejected mental gymnastics again for 2024.
>> No. 17882 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:42 pm
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>>17881
Okay I'm just going to keep you in this Iron Maiden for shits and giggles. Nothing aggressive about that.
>> No. 17885 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 6:58 pm
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>>17882
Are we taking before or after Bruce Dickinson joined?
>> No. 17887 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 11:26 pm
17887 spacer
>>17879

What about putting a puppy in a house full of bear traps?
>> No. 17889 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 11:43 pm
17889 spacer
>>17887
>What about
Stop that, lad.
>> No. 17890 Anonymous
8th February 2019
Friday 11:59 pm
17890 spacer
>>17889

Don't be dense, it's a perfectly relevant phrase to use while asking someone about their line of reasoning. Just because you read about 'whataboutism' being bad, that doesn't mean you're not supposed to ask the question at all anymore.
>> No. 17891 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 12:10 am
17891 spacer
>>17890
>Don't be dense
Says Mr. "puppy in a house full of bear traps".
>> No. 17892 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 12:21 am
17892 spacer
>>17891

I used the simplest and most obvious device I could think of to get my point across, yet you manage to be confused enough by it to call me dense, and 'no u' me at the same time. Incredible.

If nothing else, your parents giving birth to you was an act of aggression against the rest of us.
>> No. 17893 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 12:33 am
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>>17892
> If nothing else, your parents giving birth to you was an act of aggression against the rest of us.

Mirth
>> No. 17894 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:04 am
17894 spacer
>>17893

Passive aggression even, it seems.
>> No. 17895 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:50 am
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>>17892
>I used the simplest and most obvious device I could think of to get my point across
You succeeded in getting across that your point was patent bollocks.
>> No. 17896 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 2:49 am
17896 spacer
>>17895

Could you explain why you think that?

What is it about the example that doesn't work for you? It's bringing a lifeform into a known, dangerous area without consent. Perhaps to be accurate we have to add positive experiences to the house alongside the bear traps, then ask if it's still inherently bad to put the puppy in there?

If shrodinger got to use a poisoned cat in his thought experiment, I don't see why I can't use a puppy in mine.
>> No. 17897 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 3:55 am
17897 spacer
>>17896
>Could you explain why you think that?
Well, your point is patent bollocks, and I don't think anyone can deny you've done a good job of communicating that.

>What is it about the example that doesn't work for you?
Everything. It is literally in no way whatsoever an analogue for giving birth.

>I don't see why I can't use a puppy in mine.
Has the puppy consented to being used in your thought experiment? Is it from >>17829? If it's already been fucked in the arse I think the bear traps are just gratuitous at this point.
>> No. 17898 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 9:31 am
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>>17897
>>Could you explain why you think that?
>Well, your point is patent bollocks
That's a "No, I'm just responding emotionally to something that upsets my unquestioned world view" then.
>> No. 17899 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 11:09 am
17899 spacer
I can't believe we are actually having a debate about whether it's an act of aggression to bring a new life into this world.

You don't see other species pondering anti-natalism. When was the last time you heard a chimp complain about his parents not asking him if he wanted to be born into this world?
>> No. 17900 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 11:13 am
17900 spacer
>>17899
I never saw a chimp moan about philosphical blathering on an imageboard either, but it didn't stop you. If "chimps don't do it" is your threshold then why aren't you up a tree?
>> No. 17901 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 11:29 am
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>>17897

Why are you bothering to engage with the debate if you're unwilling to actually explain your reasoning? Saying "no you're just wrong" is how a ten year old argues, and it's very un-britfa.gs of you. Sort it out.
>> No. 17902 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 11:43 am
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>>17901
> and it's very un-britfa.gs of you
It's been like that for years.
>> No. 17903 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 12:32 pm
17903 spacer
>>17900

>If "chimps don't do it" is your threshold then why aren't you up a tree?

I'm probably more adept at climbing a tree than somebody like you who appears to have spent his life pondering pointless considerations like if it's an act of aggression to bring a human being, or other creature into this world.

Didn't think I'd say this at this point of the debate, but maybe your parents would have done us a big favour if they hadn't conceived you. Hey, I'm only echoing what you are saying.
>> No. 17904 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 12:36 pm
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>>17903

You tell 'im, Steve-Dave! Appeals to nature are never specious!
>> No. 17905 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 12:46 pm
17905 spacer
>>17903
>I'm probably more adept at climbing a tree than somebody like you who appears to have spent his life pondering pointless considerations like if it's an act of aggression to bring a human being, or other creature into this world.

Well, first off, this is the most appropriate instance of "weird flex, but okay" I've come across, and secondly that was the only post I've made ITT so 'ave that you hairy arsed, simian, tosser! Go on, lad, up yer' tree.

It seems fairly obvious that the lad you're arguing with is harmlessly philosophising for the sake of it, I don't know why it's gotten you so irate.
>> No. 17906 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:04 pm
17906 spacer
>>17905

>harmlessly philosophising for the sake of it

Didn't seem like it to me. Sounded more like a true belief in this kind of nonsense. Who else would say that they have actually read, and own books on anti-natalism, if I understood correctly.

Autism thoroughly checked.
>> No. 17907 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:09 pm
17907 spacer
>>17906

By that logic you're a true believer in sparkly vampires.
>> No. 17908 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:10 pm
17908 spacer
>>17907

That shit is perfectly real, lad.
>> No. 17909 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:16 pm
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>>17908

Still, the implication that everyone believes everything they read and therefore must deliberately only read things that agree with their preconceptions is a bit dodgy.
>> No. 17910 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:28 pm
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>>17903
>your parents would have done us a big favour if they hadn't conceived you
someone else already did this joke and they did it better
don't do it again.
>> No. 17911 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:32 pm
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>>17909

If you go through the trouble of buying a book on a nonfictional subject like this one, then presumably you will already have a favourable opinion towards the subject matter. At least when you then go on an image board and tout it like it's the best thing ever. True, you can still read a book out of interest and then throw it in the corner because you come to believe it's absolute tosh, but again, not likely when somebody defends anti-natalism based on the books they have read about it.
>> No. 17912 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 1:40 pm
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>>17903

>I'm probably more adept at climbing a tree than somebody like you

Fucking hell. I don't know what yet, but this has to become a wordfilter for something.
>> No. 17913 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 2:02 pm
17913 spacer
>>17912

May I suggest this as a word filter for "Have a word, lad" or "Have a word with yourself".
>> No. 17914 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 2:29 pm
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>>17911

You're arguing for the totally ridiculous sort of wilful ignorance that gets paediatricians murdered.
>If you go to the trouble of looking up how it's not the same as paedophile then you probably are one innit
>> No. 17915 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 2:50 pm
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>>17914

Fucking hell, lad.

Like I tried to argue, if you read a book on a subject and then appear to defend the key points of that book on an image board or otherwise publicly, then it's indeed fair to say that you identify with it. On the other hand, if you indeed read a book about paedophilia and then think what a fucked up lot of perverts they are, either before or after you've read it, then naturally you've informed yourself about the issue but aren't a paedo yourself.

For example, I've got an acquaintance who is a lapsed Catholic, and I gave her my copy of The God Delusion to read. And then three weeks later when I saw her again, she was furious about the ideas that ol' Dawkins lays out in that book. So you see, I'm well aware that it's perfectly possible, and reasonable to read a book and then afterwards passionately disagree with the views expressed in it even if you are interested in the subject matter itself.
>> No. 17916 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 2:57 pm
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>>17915

Both you and your friend seem to lack any sort of intellectual curiosity or the capacity it takes to play devil's advocate. We're getting off topic here though, you're yet to show why anti-natalism is at all wrong, other than because you say so.
>> No. 17917 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 3:04 pm
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As an aside, it's also pretty funny that you're the sort of person to give a copy of The God Delusion to a Christian yet still manage to be morally outraged by this.
>> No. 17918 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 3:33 pm
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>>17916

>you're yet to show why anti-natalism is at all wrong, other than because you say so.

I just think that anti-natalism is idiotic. It's a moot point in and of itself, and serves no purpose whatsoever in trying to make your brief existence in this world any more bearable or even enjoyable, not for yourself, and certainly not for others.

Whether you wanted to be born or not - on the one hand, it's all pretty easy to fix by offing yourself. That will unequivocally express your opinion to the whole world that you don't agree with having been born in the first place. But on the other hand, you can just accept the minor inconvenience of being an existent human being, in this world as we know it, and try to make the best of it instead of moping about the world being such a horrible place, and you being hard done by just because you were thrust into it after your parents had a bonk together.


>>17917

>that you're the sort of person to give a copy of The God Delusion to a Christian yet still manage to be morally outraged by this.

Lapsed agnostic Catholic, to be precise. I was not asking the Pope to read the God Delusion. And I don't think you can compare atheism to anti-natalism. Not to get off topic here again, but how is doubt in the existence of a divine being comparable to the idea that somebody didn't ask to be born and thinks it gives him the right to go through life as an ungrateful cunt. You will rightly say that atheists are ungrateful cunts if it ever turns out that there is actually a God who created them, same as all the other humans. But unlike there being indisputable evidence that you were conceived by a physically existing human father and mother, God, the old bugger, still refuses to show himself at all.
>> No. 17919 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 3:33 pm
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>>17831
>There was a pervading rumour that a lad at school used to fuck his dog. His surname was Barker so I always assumed it was definitely made up, but years later he got arrested for filming dog porn.

Maybe it was the rumours that turned him into an animal botherer though, a case of the tail wanks the dog.

>>17832
>The anthrocentric nature of mainstream anti-natalism puzzles me.

It's fairly basic misanthropy tied in with more established societal norms of consent and humanism. I'm not claiming that all anti-natalist thought is like this but you can see why some would adopt it as a fashion statement.

>>17899
>I can't believe we are actually having a debate about whether it's an act of aggression to bring a new life into this world.

I think the point your both getting lost on is this isn't "aggression" but more akin to negligence. His parents were aware of the indirect harm that would undoubtedly entail from his conception but did it anyway.

Although I'm sure it would never pass in a court of law there are legal precedents he can follow on this. If a company put out a product that by negligence led to kids being born fucked up you would be liable for the damages even if the foetus didn't hold personhood at that point. Although it falls apart in any system that allows mothers to undergo selective abortions until they have a disabled foetus.

>>17915
>if you read a book on a subject and then appear to defend the key points of that book on an image board or otherwise publicly, then it's indeed fair to say that you identify with it.

Have you ever heard of the devil's advocate?
>> No. 17921 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 3:43 pm
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>>17916
This is .gs, "because I said so" is a perfectly valid justification here.
>> No. 17922 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 3:52 pm
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>>17919

>His parents were aware of the indirect harm that would undoubtedly entail from his conception but did it anyway.

There is a scene in the nuclear war movie The Day After, after the attacks, where a mother's baby won't come out of her womb and she is overdue for some time. And she then says to the puzzled doctors in the basement catacombs of a hospital that was obliterated by a nuclear bomb, "If you had a choice, would you want to be born into a world like this?".

It's an understandable consideration if you were to conceive a child after a nuclear war. But in the movie, the mother became pregnant quite obviously long before there was even an inkling that there would be a nuclear war soon, so she had no way of assuming that her child would be born into a world rendered almost entirely uninhabitable by nuclear bombs and radiation.

You see where I am going with this.
>> No. 17923 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 4:12 pm
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>>17922
>You see where I am going with this.

Not really no.
>> No. 17924 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 4:17 pm
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>>17918
>But unlike there being indisputable evidence that you were conceived by a physically existing human father and mother, God, the old bugger, still refuses to show himself at all.
There's also indisputable evidence that being born causes you to suffer, whereas it's pretty safe to say that not being born doens't do you any harm at all.
>> No. 17925 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 4:23 pm
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>>17924
There's indisputable evidence that your post added nothing to the thread, yet you still posted it.
>> No. 17926 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 4:28 pm
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>>17925
>no u
>> No. 17928 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 4:53 pm
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>>17923

>Not really no.

The point I was trying to make is that whether or not being born causes suffering to the person who is born is such a first world middle class concept. It's academic tosh perpetuated by sheltered people who obviously don't have to struggle to survive on a daily basis.

If you lived in a poor slum in a third world shithole country with barely a shirt on your back, then yes, it'd be worth thinking about if you are really doing your seventh child a favour by conceiving him or her to live in your 25 ft by 25 ft single-room hut with six siblings.

But here in Britain, even if you are dead skint dolescum, you will still be able to afford your children a halfway decent living. Not saying that that child's quality of life will be stellar growing up, but they still grow up in a wealthy country that looks after its citizens.

Also, when you talk to the WWII and post-WWII generation, they had no time to debate the finer points of anti-natalism. They were too busy clearing away the rubble or not getting shot in a trench in France. What do you think they would have told you if you had said to them your parents didn't ask you if you wanted to be born? They would have put a machine gun in your hand and told you to walk right over to the Gerrys, because obviously you didn't stand to lose much from getting your head blown off.

I really think you don't fully appreciate your own life until it is in jeopardy. Which is an experience that all the sheltered twats who take anti-natalism seriously will probably never go through, although it would do them some good.


>>17924

>whereas it's pretty safe to say that not being born doens't do you any harm at all.

How can you just assume that for the majority of people? My own life hasn't always been great, I've seen some serious misery and fucked up shit in my life. And yet, I am grateful for every single day that I have been able to exist in this world, and I would not have it any other way. To me, never having been born at all would seem like an infintely more depressing thought than existing and having had to go through some serious shit in my life.
>> No. 17929 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 4:57 pm
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>>17927

It's not about money. You're not wrong that this is a first world concept, but more because people born into third world slums invariably don't have the time or inclination to think about such things, as they're trying to survive.

You can have depression even if you have money. You can be miserable and rich. You can be raped as a child even if you're a millionaire. You can contract, or be born with, a rare, incurable disease even if your dad is Bill Gates. You suffer heartbreak, pain, sadness, disappointment, fear, regret, no matter how much money you have in your bank account. My friend was on 180k a year when he topped himself.

Life is full of suffering no matter who you are. You're wrong to say that every middle class english person is guaranteed happiness, you should know that.

Of course, there's plenty of enjoyment to be had out of life too, but none of that is guaranteed either. The idea is that it's unethical to bring someone into a world with so many pitfalls and dangers, regardless of the potential pleasures alongside it.

And of course, every single conception is a guaranteed death sentence - there's no getting around that, yet.
>> No. 17930 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:00 pm
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>>17928

>How can you just assume that for the majority of people?

I'm not just assuming anything. Name five non-fictional people who suffered despite never existing.
>> No. 17931 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:00 pm
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>>17918
>the idea that somebody didn't ask to be born and thinks it gives him the right to go through life as an ungrateful cunt.
you're making an unreasonable connection of cause and effect. a moral position has no inherent link to action taken, especially if you factor in practical or selfish concerns.
i believe it's wrong to have children for several reasons - in practice, i won't do it for the completely different reason (I don't want to.) but i'm generally cheerful and the only problem i have to my parents is that of all the first-world english-speaking countries to have me in, it had to be Britain.
what i'm saying is, this sort of cunt off wouldn't be happening on ausfa.gs. or perhaps it would, but with smaller pints and better weather. except in Darwin which is too humid. would every thread be a cunt off in a country that uses the word cunt so liberally? some cunt find out. but don't tell me, i want to find out for myself.

>>17927
>>17928
> It's academic tosh perpetuated by sheltered people who obviously don't have to struggle to survive on a daily basis.
Ahh I love the smell of pathologically overjustified anti-intellectualism in the morning. people are obviously at their most ethically conscious when struggling to survive.
>They would have put a machine gun in your hand and told you to walk right over to the Gerrys, because obviously you didn't stand to lose much from getting your head blown off.
I don't think they were half the cunts you make them sound like, and I wouldn't take any ethical advice from your imaginary cunts. take your moaning twattery of relative privation and... go away. (Also it's Jerry.)
>I really think you don't fully appreciate your own life until it is in jeopardy.
welcome to basic and irrational human instincts. next you'll tell me we have an obligation to have children because your willy gets hard when you see the lady. (Don't.)
>> No. 17932 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:01 pm
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>>17930

In fact, name five existing people who've never suffered.
>> No. 17933 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:14 pm
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>>17929

>but more because people born into third world slums invariably don't have the time or inclination to think about such things, as they're trying to survive.

This is actually the point I have been trying to make all this time. I guess it's a kind of instinct that is useful from an evolutionary standpoint, switching into "first things first" mode when all that counts is your survival, either socioeconomically or physically. With often a lasting effect on the way you see the world for the rest of your life.


>You're wrong to say that every middle class english person is guaranteed happiness, you should know that.

I did not intend to give that impression, no. All I was trying to say was that anti-natalism is a middle and upper class concept, pondered chiefly by people who for various reasons have the time and excess thought capacity to do so.


> And of course, every single conception is a guaranteed death sentence - there's no getting around that, yet.

As you may have gathered earlier, I am a Dawkins-inspired atheist/humanist. And I believe that because all our lives will end so sadly, and because there is so much misery and suffering in the world, and because there is no afterlife, that all of that makes your life, your existence as a human being all the more precious. So why not spend your life making this drab existence of ours a little more enjoyable both for yourself and those around you. Even in the face of absolutely certain death, why not use the time you have to focus on the positive things in life.
>> No. 17934 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:20 pm
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>>17933

You do realise Dawkins is also middle, upper-middle class and always has been, right? I say this knowing full well that class is irrelevant to the philosophy itself. May as well complain that Buddhist scholars and the Abrahamic Priest classes don't work in fields. You're really flailing about looking for something to latch onto as an argument.
>> No. 17936 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:23 pm
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>>17930
The victims of the last five abortions that were carried out last week. They suffered despite not being born.

See? You're not the only one who can talk nonsense here.
>> No. 17937 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:31 pm
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>>17933
>This is actually the point I have been trying to make all this time.
Why would you ever take lessons on anything from people who haven't thought about it because they were too busy?
>So why not spend your life making this drab existence of ours a little more enjoyable both for yourself and those around you.
If existence is drab and miserable, why force it on more people? In the case of your idealised starving third worlders, there might be a flimsy excuse in that they didn't have time to think about that and a better one in that they need someone to look after them when they're old, but the more developed a country you look at the weaker that case gets. If life in Britain is near the best life gets yet still inherently drab and miserable, what's the excuse for having kids?
>> No. 17938 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:33 pm
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>>17932

I am not saying people never suffer, as a consequence of being born into this world. They obviously do, and some of them greatly. What I meant was, you can either allow the world and all the misery in it to bring you down and end up blaming your parents for being so careless to conceive you without your consent, or you can make the most of what you have been dealt and try to enjoy life.


>>17934

>You do realise Dawkins is also middle, upper-middle class and always has been, right? I say this knowing full well that class is irrelevant to the philosophy itself.

Dawkins's view seems much more grounded in reality though. He basically thinks that despite the Universe being a cold, probably godless, uncaring place, you can still enjoy your brief existence in it, and greatly so. And from everyday experience, I think you will agree that it is a view that is not exclusive to the middle and upper classes, but is at least congruent with the way many people see the world. Anti-natalism, on the other hand, very much seems to be a pursuit by posh people depressed by their own prosperity.
>> No. 17939 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:41 pm
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>>17936

Where did I say anything about "born"?
>> No. 17940 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:42 pm
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>>17938

Atheism is a pursuit for non-serfs depressed by their own ability to not have to spend their days in back-breaking labour in service of their ruler by divine right.
>> No. 17941 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:43 pm
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>>17939
PUT down those goalposts and read the story linked in the OP.
>> No. 17942 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:45 pm
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>>17938
>What I meant was, you can either allow the world and all the misery in it to bring you down and end up blaming your parents for being so careless to conceive you without your consent, or you can make the most of what you have been dealt and try to enjoy life.
That is in no way a valid dichotomy or engagement with the anti-natalist case.
You can make the most of what you've been dealt and enjoy life while maintaining nobody should create any more of it.
>> No. 17943 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:46 pm
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>>17940
Calm down, Citizen Smith.
>> No. 17944 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:46 pm
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>>17937

>If existence is drab and miserable, why force it on more people?

That's such a Hitchhiker's Guide thing to say.

"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move"


> If life in Britain is near the best life gets yet still inherently drab and miserable, what's the excuse for having kids?

Except, it isn't. See the chart of the 2017 UN World Happiness Survey. We rank at #23 and therefore below nearly all other developed Western countries.

So I guess it's no surprise that anti-natalism is seriously being debated on an image board like .gs.

You do wonder why the Japanese seem so unhappy, at number 53... you wouldn't expect it from the country of Banzai and hentai.
>> No. 17945 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:47 pm
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>>17941

I can just picture you giggling to yourself while you pretend that he doesn't mean "be caused to exist" rather than the technicality of being passed through a woman's vagina from her womb as a child. Calm down MacDuff, you're being deliberately thick.
>> No. 17946 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:47 pm
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>>17942
There is no "anti-natalist" case to engage with. It is, as Pauli would say, not even wrong.
>> No. 17947 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:49 pm
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>>17942

>That is in no way a valid dichotomy or engagement with the anti-natalist case.

Fuckssake, lad. Pardon me if I have stepped on the toes of the country's most erudite anti-natalism scholar by contrasting you.
>> No. 17948 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:52 pm
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>>17945
I don't know, lad. He does explicitly say "born", and your interpretation requires assuming the independent existence of a foetus.
>> No. 17949 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:54 pm
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>>17948

It's quite obvious you're just being obstinate for the sake of not backing down.
>> No. 17950 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 5:58 pm
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>>17949
You ok, lad?
>> No. 17951 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 6:00 pm
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>>17944

>So I guess it's no surprise that anti-natalism is seriously being debated on an image board like .gs

So you do understand.

>You do wonder why the Japanese seem so unhappy, at number 53...

I think it has a lot to do with their very strict and narrow social rules. You can be seen as an outcast by your peers for doing something as simple as being late for work. As a result a lot of people with depression or other mental illness will simply hide it as they don't want to be seen as different or as a burden. Of course this stuff happens everywhere, but Japan is such an insular society that it is amplified.

There's a condition called hikikomori which is essentially when someone is so overwhelmed by society they choose not to participate, and become reclusive hermits, with some hikikomori not leaving their bedrooms or houses for years on end.
>> No. 17952 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 6:05 pm
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>>17950
You still haven't named any people who've never existed.
>> No. 17953 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 6:08 pm
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It seems clear to me that some people in this thread don't understand what debate is, and are confusing philosophical questions, and literal thought experiments, with a genuine campaign to ban pregnancies or at the very least people who identify and operate as 'anti-natalists'.

I thought we built on devils advocatism, but apparently some of us are taking it very personally.

For what it's worth I just think we should sterilise half the population at birth, at random. Like they put the kid in a machine and it either zaps your balls/ovaries or it doesn't. Nobody knows until they try to have kids, and when they find out they can't the doctor just gives them a free kid from the orphanage.
>> No. 17954 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 6:10 pm
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>>17952
How about your girlfriend?

You'll get a serious response when you make a serious point, and not before.
>> No. 17955 Anonymous
9th February 2019
Saturday 6:14 pm
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>>17954

Your mother is very real, I assure you. Please, continue to have hurt feelings about philosophy.
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