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>> No. 27669 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 5:11 pm
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‘Hitler youths’ using Instagram to recruit children

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hitler-youths-using-instagram-to-recruit-children-xfgnglklv
Expand all images.
>> No. 27670 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 5:14 pm
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Teenage members of a neo-Nazi group that has threatened to carry out an atrocity in the UK to eclipse the Christchurch igloo shootings have been using Instagram to recruit and to spread propaganda.

The leader of the group, the British Hand, who is believed to be 15, says he is planning an attack on eskimos and refugees arriving at Dover after crossing the Channel. Other members have pledged to infiltrate the army and get weapons training.

The group’s activities across social media are laid bare in a new report by anti-fascism campaigners Hope Not Hate. Entitled Hitler Youths: The Rise of Teenage Far-Right daft militant wogs, the report reveals that children as young as 12 are being groomed online for the white supremacist cause. The British Hand, which uses a skull and crossbones logo combined with rifles over a Union Jack, launched on Instagram at the end of July. Although its official account has been shut down several times, its members have continued to use their personal profiles to spread hate.

The leader of the group, whose identity is known to The Sunday Times, had more than 1,000 followers until his account was suspended by Instagram this weekend. He is still at school and lives at home with his mother in Derby. He describes the British Hand as an “ultranationalist” group whose main goal is “to get rid of Islam and those little BLM [Black Lives Matter] fuckers”. Those who show an interest in its views are encouraged to follow the group on the encrypted Telegram messaging app. Once they have been vetted, they can participate in incendiary private chats.

In one recent Telegram message, the leader wrote: “Right lads, I’m gonna delete this after 10 hours. I am planning a attack against the Dover coast where every eskimo and refuge has been given safety. If your interested tell me now.” Other members offered their support. Referring to eskimos in London, one said he was “gonna mow ’em down”.

>> No. 27672 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 5:17 pm
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I read something the other day that mentioned that the average age for someone running a political meme account is 17.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/12/marxist-memes-tiktok-teens-radical-left

Is the internet politically radicalising young people or is there a lot of hyperbole involved?
>> No. 27674 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 6:13 pm
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>>27672
>Is the internet politically radicalising young people

Essentially yes. There have been active campaigns in the west, Bannon is probably mostly responsible as he had a whole program targetting chronic masturbators because they are "easy to manipulate" and weaponise. It's very sinister but incredibly effective.
>> No. 27676 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 6:49 pm
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>>27670
>Hitler Youths: The Rise of Teenage Far-Right daft militant wogs

That wordfilter will never fail to amuse me.
>> No. 27677 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 6:57 pm
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>>27672
I know a couple of young people who went from being fairly liberal centre left folks to becoming full blown MAGA hat wearing white nationalists over the course of two years, mostly due to browsing /pol/ and getting caught up in the Brexit/Trump train. They seem a lot happier now though.
>> No. 27678 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 7:01 pm
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>Right lads, I’m gonna delete this after 10 hours. I am planning a attack against the Dover coast where every eskimo and refuge has been given safety. If your interested tell me now.

So they uncovered an MI5 honeypot?

>>27672
Young people have always been prone to radicalism and actively preyed upon. Why do you think every political party has a youth movement?
>> No. 27679 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 7:02 pm
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These people don't exist in real life, you really have to go digging to find someone who's really a member of a teenage Hitler Youth group and not just people complaining about the perceived threat of them online.
>> No. 27680 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 7:32 pm
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>>27677
I bet being on the right is more fun. On the left you've got to watch out for sanctimonious bores and outright hostility from people a different degree of left to you whereas the right these days seems to be about nihilistically taking the piss out of everything and winning pointless culture wars.

In other words, I can picture the right being far more welcoming for a teenager/young adult than the left.

>>27679
These are the extreme examples, but the internet is undoubtedly shaping the worldview of young people even if it just starts out with something innocuous like sharing political memes.
>> No. 27681 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 8:21 pm
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>>27680
>being on the right is more fun

It is nowadays, particularly online. The lefties like to meet up, march, do things in person - the right just stay online and spray shit around. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to be on the right.

The internet is absolutely radicalising young people to a degree never seen before. People just get access to an extremely wide range of views that were never available in the past.
>> No. 27682 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 8:31 pm
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>>27681
>Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to be on the right.

I'm assuming you're on about real life as posting something positive about the right on Facebook if you're under the age of ~30 would turn you into a bit of a pariah, perhaps not with strangers but certainly amongst people you know.

Being on the left is also far more depressing. You've got to be angry over just about everything going to shit whereas on the right you've got to manufacture outrage over things that don't really matter like Sue Barker being ousted from A Question of Sport.
>> No. 27683 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 8:40 pm
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>>27680

This is the thing. The left has absolutely lost its rebellious spirit.

People have forgotten that the liberal age we live in today was helped into existence by a counter-culture rebellion of drugged up, promiscuous, unwashed hippies listening to songs and watching films that were decried as degeneracy and sin at the time. And yet there they are, unironically wondering whether it's okay to criticise rap artists for misogyny.

If the right is a motorcycle gang, the "left" (we've been over the fact it's not actually the left) is an autistic chess club.

>>27679

I'd also like to point out that this post was a parody of that line people always trot out whenever somebody complains that Twitter is full of tranny fascists and reverse racists.

Radicalisation and polarisation is a big problem, and it affects both the left and the right.
>> No. 27685 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 9:17 pm
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>>27682
>Sue Barker being ousted from A Question of Sport.

I upset myself this evening by reading the comments on a Telegraph article about this; yes I know. QoS is so bad it isn't even good, it's like something Smashy & Nicey dreamed up and discarded; it has always been utter, utter unfunny tedious embarrassing shite. No amount of (even more) tedious wokewashing will make it funny. But the Telegraph comments of (presumably 80 year old) people getting angry about this actually upset me - again I know I shouldn't ever read the comments, but for fucks fucking sake, these people walk among us and there are times when I read, hear or see the views of what seems like "the majority" that I just want to stick my head in a blender.
>> No. 27686 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 9:32 pm
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>>27685
You can't blame them. They remember what happened to Radio 2 when the BBC decided it needed more diversification.
>> No. 27687 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 9:40 pm
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>>27685
I think you're confusing what outraged people say under anonymity with well thought out opinions from sensible people.

And its a load of bollocks to push someone out after she spent over 20 years hosting a programme because you think young people can't enjoy older entertainers. The BBC needs to learn that pandering to groups is if anything counterproductive - it reminds me of those tapes the teacher would put on in school with people wearing backwards baseball caps and rapping about chemistry.
>> No. 27688 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 9:41 pm
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>>27686

>They remember what happened to Radio 2 when the BBC decided it needed more diversification.

It got some presenters worth listening to? The current line-up includes Jo Whiley, Trevor Nelson, Craig Charles, Ana Matronic and Marc Radcliffe. If they send Ken Bruce, Tony Blackburn and Steve Wright off to the glue factory, they'll be half way to a decent radio station.
>> No. 27689 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 9:45 pm
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>>27669
>British Hand on Instagram
I thought for a second this was about the Hundred Handers on Telegram.

Check out their delightful fash stickers.

https://t.me/s/TheHundredHanders
>> No. 27690 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 9:52 pm
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>>27688
>It got some presenters worth listening to?

The key slots are for people going to and from work. Shoehorning Jo Wiley into Simon Mayo's show was an absolute car crash that led to him leaving the network and it left a bad taste in a lot of peoples' mouths, which contributes to future backlashes when things are done for no other reason than to be "progressive". Zoe Ball shouldn't have the breakfast show as she's dire, as was Chris Evans to be fair, but it doesn't bother me as, at least when I had a commute, I listen to Lauren Laverne on 6 Music in the morning.
>> No. 27691 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 10:01 pm
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>>27688

It's all part of the great cycle. You have it all backwards. You think they adapted Radio 2 to try and catch up with a new, younger audience, but in reality it was you who has aged into the Radio 2 demographic and they had to shift the presenters to match. This is the same illusory effect that has kept Radio 1 getting younger and younger and even more tediously vapid year on year.

Of course, I only listen to Radio 4, because ever since visiting my middle class mate's house when I was younger I have envisioned listening to Radio 4 in the kitchen over cigarettes and coffee/wine, reading the broadsheets, as the very image of success in life.
>> No. 27692 Anonymous
14th September 2020
Monday 10:29 pm
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>>27691
I, for one, don't even own a radio.
>> No. 27693 Anonymous
15th September 2020
Tuesday 11:54 am
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>>27689
How is the .gs stickerbomb campaign coming along anyway?
>> No. 27698 Anonymous
15th September 2020
Tuesday 8:24 pm
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>>27693
Expect the next photos on there to be from Ossett and Nepal.
>> No. 27699 Anonymous
15th September 2020
Tuesday 8:27 pm
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>>27698
I used to work with someone whose family moved from Ossett to Flockton because the former was getting too enriched for their liking.
>> No. 27701 Anonymous
15th September 2020
Tuesday 10:45 pm
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>>27687

>I think you're confusing what outraged people say under anonymity with well thought out opinions from sensible people.

I think you have confused people being socially afraid to say what they think without the cloak of anonymity, with it not existing offline.

That isn't to say I think everyone is a closet racist. But the world has gotten so aggressive with its politics that even as a dye in the wool liberal I am afraid to speak my mind publicly because my 'sticks and stones' philosophy isn't considered woke enough.
>> No. 27702 Anonymous
15th September 2020
Tuesday 10:48 pm
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>>27701

That seems like a bit of a contradiction.
>> No. 27704 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 11:04 am
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>>27702

Which part?
>> No. 27705 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 11:34 am
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>>27704

The bit where he's afraid to say "words are harmless" because of the potential repercussions of his words.
>> No. 27706 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 11:45 am
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>>27705

You've misunderstood. The reason I am 'afraid' is that I find it mentally exhausting and I don't want to get dragged into the same ad nauseam discussions. I just don't have the energy for it.
>> No. 27707 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 11:51 am
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>>27706

That is one sort of potential repercussion to words, yes.
>> No. 27708 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 1:10 pm
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Is this the type of image that is radicalising people?
>> No. 27709 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 2:24 pm
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>>27708

It's made me radically hungry for a kebab.
>> No. 27710 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 3:00 pm
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>>27709
I had a couple pieces of lamb pakora (lush, try it if you haven't) and most of a Shish kebab last night and had to stop because the acid reflux almost had me in tears.

I'm hitting mid 30s with a bang.
>> No. 27713 Anonymous
16th September 2020
Wednesday 4:38 pm
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>>27710

>I'm hitting mid 30s with a bang

Mirth.

You are not going to enjoy your 40s.
>> No. 27762 Anonymous
17th September 2020
Thursday 7:23 pm
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>>27713
50s are much easier. It's all downhill from here. No expectations of greatness.
>> No. 27769 Anonymous
18th September 2020
Friday 10:29 am
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>>27762
This has, rather unexpectedly, lifted my spirits somewhat.
>> No. 27786 Anonymous
18th September 2020
Friday 11:20 pm
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>>27762

That sort of sets in in your 40s, I have found. Hitting 40 itself was really hard for me, and I pretty much spent the last two years from age 38 to 40 worrying about it, to the point that most sessions at my therapist were spent endlessly going on about it.

But now that I am in my mid-40s, somehow it just isn't that bad anymore. You eventually accept that you are getting old and that your body is basically starting to rot and fall apart, but you're at peace with yourself about it. I can honestly say, I'm looking forward to the few good years I've still got in me, and I will try to be the best me that I can be.

I think fundamentally, until about your early to mid 30s, it still hasn't fully sunk in that you aren't going to live forever. You still haven't moved much beyond the notion that the older you will simply be the present you with a few grey hairs. You will proper fucking age, from the way you will feel in the morning after a few pints the night before to your physical strength, your intellectual capabilities, and your wee coming out in a thinner stream.

But you will find yourself accepting all that, and it will still seem like the much better alternative compared to being dead.
>> No. 27789 Anonymous
18th September 2020
Friday 11:38 pm
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>>27786
I had it a few years earlier in my early 30s - by the time I got to 40 and now 50, that feeling is all a bit meh. I like nearly everything about getting old, although I'm probably a grumpier cunt than I used to be; I'm perfectly happy with it and generally a better lad than I was.

The ONLY thing I don't like about the physical aspects of getting old is food - in my twenties, like most, I could hoover up food and drink as much as I liked - now anything remotely calorific seems to add an inch to my waist. I watch my kids snorting huge bowls of pasta, noodles and multiple portions without any comeback, couple more years they'll be drinking for England, and it's the only thing I'm truly jealous of.
>> No. 27790 Anonymous
19th September 2020
Saturday 12:03 am
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>>27789

>I watch my kids snorting huge bowls of pasta, noodles and multiple portions without any comeback

I was like that as a teenlad. I was very active and into all kinds of physically demanding sports, granted, but I was pretty much eating nonstop all day long, from kebabs to crisps and sweets, and wasn't gaining an ounce. I weighed about 11 st at 6'1'' for most of my late teens even with a freakish daily calorie intake like that. People would ask me all the time just where I was putting all of it.

The first time I noticed that changing was when I got my first proper full time job after uni in my mid to late 20s. I still tried to stay reasonably active, but I was starting to put on the pounds despite eating less. By age 30, I had gained nearly two stone that way.

I think what I miss about being young is the way you could bounce back from getting off your tits. At uni, we'd often get totally smashed on a Monday or Tuesday despite having to be in class early the next morning, but you felt fine and capable of paying attention even with a mid-range hangover. A pint after work now really needs to be limited to one pint, maybe two pints on a really good day, or it is going to seriously impact my job performance the next morning.
>> No. 27791 Anonymous
19th September 2020
Saturday 12:13 am
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>>27786
>your intellectual capabilities

Fuck that shit. Which life extension charity am I supposed to donate to? There seems to be loads going by a google search.
>> No. 27793 Anonymous
19th September 2020
Saturday 12:28 am
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>>27789
>>27790
My bugbear is how my digestion just can't handle an interesting diet. If I spend a day in a room without ventilation then the place ends up smelling like farts.

I know we don't like silly internet videos but this gave me a chuckle:

>> No. 27795 Anonymous
19th September 2020
Saturday 1:02 am
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>>27794

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0wTtiJygY
>> No. 27796 Anonymous
19th September 2020
Saturday 1:14 am
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You lot are all proper old.

I actually quite enjoyed turning 30. It felt like a fresh start in a weird way, like the weight of all the things you felt expected to live up to in your 20s, all that youthful drive and ambition, having loads of mates, going out on the lash getting laid every weekend, all just evaporated overnight. I was given a new lease of life as an officially sanctioned Grown Up, permitted to be a bit more sensibly boring, and less engaged with all the tedious keeping up with trends you were meant to do as a youngster.

The goalposts seem to move in your favour too- Instead of a self-concious misfit of a 20-something, I'm relatively cool and interesting for a 30-something. I hope this trend keeps up and turns into that magic charisma that lets you pull 21 year olds in your mid 40s. I'm looking forward to having an affair with a young, tight, red haired fitty who considers herself to have been "born too late", and thinks everything that comes out of my mouth is witty and cultured, when half of it is just Mighty Boosh and Black Books references.
>> No. 27798 Anonymous
19th September 2020
Saturday 10:00 am
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>>27796

>I'm looking forward to having an affair with a young, tight, red haired fitty who considers herself to have been "born too late", and thinks everything that comes out of my mouth is witty and cultured, when half of it is just Mighty Boosh and Black Books references.

I'm not sure whether to applaud you for having those daring plans for your 40s, or to tell you what a poor fool you are.
>> No. 27819 Anonymous
20th September 2020
Sunday 2:58 pm
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At what age are you old or at least no longer young? People considering themselves young in their 30s seems mad to me. I'm 29 and feel fucking ancient, and miserable to boot. Most of my hairs gone already and I've piled on the weight. The idea of chucking the gf and starting again seems like a bad idea even if I now realise it was a five year mistake.
>> No. 27821 Anonymous
20th September 2020
Sunday 4:06 pm
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>>27819

Well, it's being overweight and having lost hair that's making you feel old. You should get in shape, and do whatever else you need to do to make yourself sexually attractive, and then chuck the gf for something better.
>> No. 27822 Anonymous
20th September 2020
Sunday 4:11 pm
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>>27819

I think old and young are always relative. Being in my mid-40s now, I think 30 year olds are envy-inducingly young. But if you're 25, you will seem proper old to an 18 year old.

That said, I think being in your mid-40s to early 50s is when you pass the threshold between being still young by some remote definition, and getting on a bit to where it'd simply be incorrect to call you young.

I'm in my mid-40s now, and I've simply stopped worrying about how old or how young I am. And I am beginning to enjoy the advantages of being no longer young, but still by no means elderly. Age can give you authority and dignity all in itself, if you know how to embrace it.


> The idea of chucking the gf and starting again seems like a bad idea even if I now realise it was a five year mistake

Not at 29, it isn't. On the contrary, it's the age where a lot of people begin to settle down for good nowadays, and settling down with the wrong person could seem to you like an even bigger mistake ten years from now.
>> No. 27840 Anonymous
20th September 2020
Sunday 7:55 pm
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I have had three pints today. It was enough to get me a little tipsy but now I have quite the headache. I don't know if I should stop drinking beer unless I'm going to get absolutely rat-arsed because the subsequent headache doesn't seem worth it. I am 32.
>> No. 27845 Anonymous
20th September 2020
Sunday 10:39 pm
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>>27819

It's a state of mind as much as anything. I know pensioners who are still youthful and dynamic, and people in their mid-twenties who have basically given up. Being curious and engaged and willing to change your mind is far more important than how many birthdays you've had IMO. Even if you're physically in decline, you can still grow as a person.
>> No. 27846 Anonymous
20th September 2020
Sunday 11:35 pm
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>>27845

Quite. And if you keep pushing yourself to keep doing new and interesting things, then that's not only a sign that you're still switched on, but it can actually slow down your brain's aging process altogether. There have been studies that if given the chance, you can be almost as quick to pick up new things as you were in your younger days. It's called neuroplasticity, and it was once thought that it fades dramatically with age, but if you keep challenging your brain even in middle age, then a lot of that ability can be retained into your 50s or 60s.

What I do struggle with being in my mid-40s are the new currents of public opinion and social acceptance of certain things that have taken hold in the last 15 years or so. I know that just by not being the same generation as all the Millennials or even people that came after them, I'll never quite relate to them. But their views on such things as identity politics or social justice are just something that I can't get my head around. I'm sort of stuck in the late 90s to early 2000s with most of my opinions in that respect. Most people forget that those were liberal times, too, and that the envelope just hadn't been pushed as far as it has today. We weren't homophobes, or racists or sexists. In fact, we thought that people in our parents' generation were. But I guess that always depends on what your vantage point is. My parents seemed to spell the end of all that was good and holy to my grandparents when my mum and dad decided to wear their hair long, listen to hard rock, and join student protests in the late 60s.
>> No. 27847 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 12:05 am
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>>27846

>I'm sort of stuck in the late 90s to early 2000s with most of my opinions in that respect. Most people forget that those were liberal times, too, and that the envelope just hadn't been pushed as far as it has today. We weren't homophobes, or racists or sexists.

There's a lot of try-hard bullshit in lefty politics and always has been, but I think the young people do have a point in this respect - we were a little bit racist and sexist and homophobic back in the early 00s, we just didn't realise it.

To our generation, it's obvious that something like The Black and White Minstrel Show is totally unacceptable, but we grew up with a lot of really iffy stuff on telly. It's natural to feel attacked when people are criticising things that you fondly remember, but if we can't face up to our mistakes then we're no better than previous generations. It'd be quite remarkable if we had just completely solved discrimination and there was no more progress to be made.

There's a vocal minority of twats on Twitter, but mostly young people strike me as thoughtful, sensitive and deeply principled. They've handled lockdown with far more maturity than I would have, they're leading the way on climate change and they're remarkably stoical in the face of inheriting an absolute shit-show.


>> No. 27848 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 1:04 am
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>>27847
>There's a vocal minority of twats on Twitter, but mostly young people strike me as thoughtful, sensitive and deeply principled. They've handled lockdown with far more maturity than I would have, they're leading the way on climate change and they're remarkably stoical in the face of inheriting an absolute shit-show.

You sound like an online journalist m8. What else do the coming generation do that you're on your soapbox about?
>> No. 27849 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 3:34 am
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>>27846
I'm on the same boat (a bit older), but as an non white. Things were much more inclusive then (in your class) - but only because racism was overt (back in the 90s/80s compared to now). I don't know how to explain it. I don't want to say the bourgeois, corporate and media types are stamping out how it was, but it truly feels that way. There was a real understanding, whether you were brown, white or black, we were all fucking proletariats & peasants, and we looked out for each other (at least in London and Bristol). Now, everyone is an individual, and nobody can match the state. Union memberships have crashed since the 30s. Wtf? How?

I hate this shit, and my kids don't understand it when I get too drunk and rant. I'm just the mental old uncle/dad from a "century" ago.

Fuck off.
>> No. 27856 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 10:52 am
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>>27849

You sound like a filthy class reductionist shitlord m8, but I'm not going to spend my emotional labour educating you [lipstick emoji]
>> No. 27857 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 11:08 am
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>>27856
😘
>> No. 27858 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 11:32 am
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>>27849


It's probably true that being white was easier than being non-white around the year 2000. What is also true enough is that ethnic diversity wasn't celebrated the way it is today.

What really gets on my tits though is when young people who barely have any recollection at all of those times besides shitting their nappies a few times a day now think they have a scholarly opinion about that era being awful.

It's the same as all those shows like "It was alright in the 90s" Or 80s or whatever. You've basically got early20somethings cringing at TV programmes from a time when they weren't around, which may not always have been in good taste, but nonetheless they're usually taken completely out of context. Just because one TV presenter grabbed his female assistant's boobs on live TV, doesn't mean that people were regularly going through their daily lives thinking that that was an acceptable thing to do. I can assure you it really wasn't. Also, to go back a bit further, Jimmy Savile was considered a wrongun in his heyday almost the way he is now. The only difference is probably that people are much more on alert about sexual violence now. And that is actually for the most part a good thing. I just think that we're forgetting that despite of what you see in occasional snippets of bad-taste TV from the time, the 90s and noughties were not a free-for-all where a blind eye was turned to that kind of thing.

There was plenty of racial stereotyping in those days, that's true, at least seen through the lens of our current times. But there is still a difference between racial stereotyping and all-out racism. There was a certain line that it usually didn't cross. And it's not like those things didn't provoke complaints back then. The difference was that you would write an angry letter, or e-mail to Channel 4 or 5, and not join forces with a livid Twitter mob that thinks the Universe revolves around it.
>> No. 27862 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 12:50 pm
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>>27849
The problem is that identity politics took precedence over class politics.
>> No. 27863 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 1:09 pm
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>>27862
Was class politics ever really a thing? The way people harp on about class solidarity reminds me of when you see Daily Mail readers harking back for the days of an England that didn't exist outside of their rose tinted imagination because they've been watching too much Heartbeat.

When precisely is this wonderful time that we should be winding our clocks back to?
>> No. 27864 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 1:59 pm
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>>27863
It certainly was in the North around the 1970s and 80s.
>> No. 27865 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 2:01 pm
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>>27863

>When precisely is this wonderful time that we should be winding our clocks back to?

My vote is still for the 90s, minus live-TV boob grabbing.
>> No. 27867 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 2:17 pm
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>>2786
>and us vs. them

*an. Can't delete my posts for whatever reason but I think I've reported myself.
>> No. 27868 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 2:21 pm
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THE GOOD OLD DAYS.


>> No. 27869 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 3:06 pm
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>>27868
The Unions had too much power, that much was obvious. This is one of the reasons Thatcher was so popular at the time because she took that ability to cripple the country away from them. The problem was Thatcher then handed too much power to the CEOs and boardroom executives and shareholders. With an emerging global market, the country was forced to adopt neoliberal market philosophies or go under very quickly which I think the left's reaction to was "well fuck, we better go with a different angle" which is where New Labour comes in. The recent phenomenon of focus on identity politics is driven by a, idealistic, left-leaning younger generation who grew up on social media and Twitter but of course, the youth vote never wins elections as can be evidenced by the spectacular failure of Jeremy Corbyn.
>> No. 27875 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 6:59 pm
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>>27869

Also, you have to remember that up until the late 1970s, Britain had one of the highest rates of industry nationalisation outside the Communist Bloc. That alone slowed and crippled economic growth and innovation. And then of course you had the unions.

Just look at British Leyland. They were shit throughout the 1970s and made piss poor cars, and then when the British government acquired its stake in 1975, things went even further down the crapper.

Margaret Thatcher is deservedly reviled today for taking things too far and putting the whole country up for grabs with her brand of unflinching 80s capitalism. But we also couldn't have gone on the way things were before she came to power.

Tony Blair was a realist in that he knew he couldn't turn back the clock to pre-Major and Thatcher times just to appease the old guard of Labour. But he then went on to sell down the river all that Labour traditionally believed was good and holy. It's worth remembering that many of the job market reforms that took job security away from the average person and saw a sharp increase in temp work and a decrease in wages happened after 1997 and into the new millennium, under a Labour government.
>> No. 27887 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 10:50 pm
27887 i have too much time on my hands
>>27869
The unions are over-blamed for Britain's pre-Thatcher malaise. Yes, they were chaotic bastards in the 1970s - but that was the nature of the period. The narrative that has stuck now is that in the 1970s we took a radical swing left and it all went to shit, which is practically the opposite of what actually happened.
Why was inflation so high by the mid 1970s? Unions? (They did bring down Heath after all) Not quite. Britain was running a highly inflationary economic policy under Heath to grow the economy in preparation for joining the EEC, while bank lending had been deregulated with the implementation of Competition and Credit Control. The result was that when the 1973 oil crisis hit and sent prices skyrocketing for everyone, Britain did particularly badly out of it.
The Miner's strike that brought down Heath was hardly union intransigence: They were some of the worst paid people in the country, they could've been given a raise in accordance with the government's pay guidelines, and on the eve of the election even the pay board was saying as much. Heath was the one who fucked up there.
So Labour came in offering the unions a fair deal: You keep down your pay demands, we'll up public spending so that your standard of living goes up, and everyone's happy. (This strategy actually worked very well for Australia in the 1980s.) Then Labour went back on that promise while expecting the unions to keep up their end of the bargain.
There's the famous IMF loan, which is usually imagined as a sign of national bankruptcy when it was really built on a succession of misunderstandings. The problem was never that we couldn't afford the domestic public spending deficit (measured in Pounds), the problem was that we calculated we'd import too much foreign goods without exporting enough of our own (the trade deficit), which meant we'd need a loan in dollars to make up the difference to stop the pound going down in value. The treasury at the time was operating with an economic model that says if the pound goes below a certain value, it'll go into freefall. We now know that to be untrue. On top of that, the treasury had miscalculated the cost of our imports in any case, so the loan was unnecessary. (Since about 1987 we've run a trade deficit every single year, for reference)
So Labour signed up to an IMF loan it didn't need and which demanded punitive public spending cuts, which understandably pissed off the unions. They were further pissed off when an election which was widely expected to happen in 1978 didn't. (Again, a miscalculation.) By the time the Winter of Discontent happened, the public sector unions had plenty of legitimate reasons to be upset with the government, and the private sector unions had plenty of legitimate reasons to demand their employers pay them more than the government's guidelines allowed.
But carrying on like this was never on the ballot paper: Setting aside the miners, the big reason for strikes was pay and conditions. Pay wasn't keeping pace with prices. This is a problem that would (world economy and non-implosion of the UK economy allowing) always have become less significant with time.

Britain doesn't exist in a vacuum. Almost every first world country suffered similar instabilities and changes of government through the 1970s. Many of them even tell themselves the same story of their pre-80s reform world. (New Zealand also likes to play up how they were the most controlled economy outside the USSR for example) What made ours sting particularly badly was that it came at the tail end of decolonization, when we were already in the mood to feel like we were in permanent decline. Relative to our European competitors, we were actually doing better on inflation, growth and unemployment in the 1970s (as the sick man of Europe) than we were in the 1980s. But because the 1980s were a much more stable decade, the popular memory is that the tough medicine was working even as our GDP slipped behind that of Italy (a position we'd not recover from until 1997), that powerhouse of good economic management.

>>27875
British Leyland is a good example for the general precedent of British failures. Setting aside our government, our private sector management isn't very good either. Both in the 1970s, and echoed again after Brexit, you can see a recurring problem of laziness and complacency on the part of our management. When the pound drops in value, you can reliably expect British companies to pocket the extra profits by increasing their prices rather than using the fact their goods are now cheaper to expand into new markets and make themselves more resilient in the future.
The government agency that acquired British Leyland had actually been designed to buy a slice of successful British companies and help them with long term planning, etc, as well as to support organizations like co-operatives. That was one of the actual left-wing ideas of the 1974 Labour manifesto. But the Labour right were dominant in cabinet at the time and had no real interest in that sort of thing, so instead it wound up being used to save companies that it would be too politically costly to let die. (There's an excellent quote somewhere about how the National Enterprise Board went from "socialist maternity unit to capitalist nursing home" or something.)

Blair is given too much credit and the Old Labour/New Labour split is misunderstood. There were a lot of modernizers inside Labour and a lot of them were far more switched on than he was. Blair himself wrote a very good analysis of Thatcher's success in his diary ( https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v09/n19/tony-blair/diary ) but then went on to embrace her legacy instead of committing to some kind of industrial (or at least export-oriented) rebuilding.
It suited Blair to portray New Labour as a break with the "Old Labour" socialists who were causing trouble in the 1980s, but this is historically misleading: Much like under Corbyn, the Parliamentary Labour Party was to the right of the Labour membership. Much of "Old Labour" were right-wing figures who stood behind Callaghan as he cut public spending and hiked interest rates. The true spirit of Old Labour is imagined to be Tony Benn where really it ought to be someone like Harold Wilson, a man who it's now common to view (somewhat unfairly) as a proto-Blair figure, lacking in principle and focused mainly on power.

One of the real tragedies is how the modernizers who weren't part of the Blair/Brown/Mandelson clique failed to build a faction around themselves. Bryan Gould was their candidate for the leadership and he wasted his chance by standing against John Smith in 1992, then left Labour (and Britain) because he could see he had no prospects of getting anything useful done by staying. So now you've got the Labour of today, caught between two factions that shouldn't exist and more than a few MPs who don't seem to have any political leanings whatsoever.
>> No. 27889 Anonymous
21st September 2020
Monday 11:25 pm
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>>27887
You need a hobby, possibly in writing political blogs.
>> No. 27891 Anonymous
22nd September 2020
Tuesday 12:04 am
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>>27887
This is great. Long, but great.
>> No. 27892 Anonymous
22nd September 2020
Tuesday 12:25 am
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>>27887

>British Leyland is a good example for the general precedent of British failures. Setting aside our government, our private sector management isn't very good either.

British Leyland suffered from attempted, and miserably failed central planning of operations and workflow between its constituent companies. At its worst, it was run like a government entity, and not like a private-sector conglomerate. Building cars isn't just about boshing together a few body panels with some nuts and bolts, you need to have people who ensure that factory A receives parts from factory B that are needed, when they are needed, and of adequate quality. Somebody trained in production logistics needs to be in charge of the big picture. Not politicians and government clerks. If you have them calling the shots, then you will run any private company into the ground, because their way of thinking just isn't compatible with running a private-sector, for-profit company. No matter if you've got a Labour or Tory government at the helm.
>> No. 27895 Anonymous
22nd September 2020
Tuesday 3:34 am
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>>27891
I agree. Long political posts are great because they let you co-opt opinions about things you care nothing about, thereby fooling people into thinking you're more worldly than you really are.

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