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>> No. 82573 Anonymous
8th June 2017
Thursday 6:27 am
82573 2017 General Election polling day/results thread
Morning, lads.

As per .gs tradition, it's time for the separate polling day/results thread.

Results are expected slightly earlier than previous years as there's no local elections at the same time.
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>> No. 83013 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 1:04 pm
83013 spacer
>The Scottish champions Celtic will play Northern Ireland’s Linfield or La Fiorita of San Marino in the second qualifying round of the Champions League.

>With Celtic drawn away for the first leg, the possibility of them playing in Belfast on 12 July, a key date in the marching calendar, is potentially problematic for security services given past sectarian tensions.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/19/celtic-linfield-champions-league-draw-marching-day

That's that, then. Troubles 2.0 all but confirmed.
>> No. 83014 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 7:09 pm
83014 spacer
>>83013
Double Troubles.
>> No. 83015 Anonymous
20th June 2017
Tuesday 6:33 pm
83015 spacer
>>82960

>We don't all pay the national debt, the government does. But yes, the government could decide to not issue gilts and refuse to meet its obligation to its debtors.

Government is supposed to be our representative. If the government is in debt, that ultimately means we are too.

>You've yet to explain why it should though.

Because it is stifling human development and benefiting the most power hungry.

>Profound though it may be to point out that countries and governments and debts are all just in our mind maaan, the reality is that we have collectively agreed to give these institutions meaning and legitimacy and power. I don't think you're going to convince anyone that we shouldn't if you're not able to even begin to develop your case.

Less collectively agreed and more just accepted without question how things are or put up with because no alternative is provided.

It's not just the institutions themselves that are the problem though, it's also the people who are given the power to run them (not always elected either). Government offers a type of power that attracts a high percentage of sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists and all the rest of it.
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>> No. 83016 Anonymous
20th June 2017
Tuesday 7:13 pm
83016 spacer
>>83014
Apparently there's going to be a legal challenge over whether this breaches the Good Friday agreement, so the double trouble may not bubble.
>> No. 83017 Anonymous
20th June 2017
Tuesday 7:56 pm
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>>83015
Electing people in government isn't always a good idea. Just look at the USA for a good example of this. I don't want public officials afraid of doing the right thing for fear of losing their bid for re-election. It's bad enough they've got us electing police commissioners, but just look at this sample ballot. The majority of the positions there have no business being on it. Elected officials end up wanting to consolidate power, which means either pandering to the voters or working to disenfranchise them, rather than carrying out one's duties without fear or favour.

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>> No. 82964 Anonymous
17th June 2017
Saturday 6:30 pm
82964 spacer
Anarchylad, I have mocked you for years, but now I agree it's time to end this bullshit.
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>> No. 83008 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:24 pm
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>>83006
>If the ballot paper didn't have the parties written on them do you think people would really have any idea of who they were voting for?
Er, yes. At least, if the evidence of how people voted in the days when party affiliation and logos were not printed prominently on the ballot paper is anything to go by.
>> No. 83009 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 9:28 pm
83009 spacer
>>83007

So you haven't noticed how people talk about Corbyn constantly, or voting for Corbyn, even though they probably don't live in North Islington? And therefore he presumably had no relivance to how people voted in the general election outside of that area.
>> No. 83010 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 10:27 pm
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>>83009
Are you an idiot? Of course he is relevant to all people voting Labour, not just those in North Islington.
>> No. 83011 Anonymous
18th June 2017
Sunday 11:42 pm
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>>83009
Yes I have. I've also noticed how other people talk about how they hate Corbyn but vote for the Labour candidate anyway because they like their MP or hate the Tories even more.

Party leaders certainly have relevance to national voter trends. That doesn't translate to "a vote for an MP is as good as a vote for a leader", though, that's total bollocks. To get a sense of how favourable people's opinions of party leaders are you have to, you know, actually ask them a question about it.
>> No. 83012 Anonymous
19th June 2017
Monday 7:41 am
83012 spacer
He reaction to Grenfell has really seen her take a battering.
Go down and talk to the firemen but avoid the people because they might be ruffians. Jez goes right down and hugs people. He walks among the people like he has his entire life.

Theresa is essentially shamed into meeting a select few at downing street on her own terms a couple of days later.

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>> No. 75779 Anonymous
20th July 2016
Wednesday 1:55 pm
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The Liberal Democrats have started a consultation process on what the parties next manifesto should look like. Its open to non-members and I thought everyone could benefit from you lads giving views.

https://libdems.getfeedback.com/r/jKh47Fw8

It asks an interesting question: What would you spend £2 billion on?

I thought about putting the money towards adult education programs. Things like the Open University are fundamentally good ideas that gives people who otherwise can't study because of career and family commitments the chance to learn new skills and achieve lifelong learning. It sounds non-controversial but I'm sure there is ample chance to start a cunt-off on that idea.

Another interesting question is that it asks whether the Lib Dems should focus on staying in the European Union or on what Brexit should now be. An interesting option given the party is fervently pro-EU and I wonder what will fill the vacuum if its abandoned.
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>> No. 82932 Anonymous
14th June 2017
Wednesday 8:13 pm
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I'm glad he has stuck to his views. The fact the liberal party is crushing him for it is shameful on them.
>> No. 82933 Anonymous
14th June 2017
Wednesday 8:18 pm
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>>82931
If he'd simply given a straight answer then the spectre of homosexuality wouldn't have lingered around him like a bad fart. His failure to deal with this made it an issue.
>> No. 82934 Anonymous
14th June 2017
Wednesday 8:33 pm
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Funny how the leader whose father was a vicar and presumably has similarly backward views didn't get pulled up on it.
>> No. 82935 Anonymous
14th June 2017
Wednesday 8:53 pm
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>>82934
Similar backwards views as in she was the first prominent Tory to support Out4Marriage?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTsXoNkiY3g

Similar backwards views that she, together with Gideon and Hague, wrote a letter in The Telegraph in 2013 telling other Tories to back same sex marriage?

Similar backwards views that it was Theresa May herself who wrote a foreword to the 2010 Tory manifesto pledging to look into expanding civil partnerships into gay marriage?

Please don't tell me you're basing your opinion on Theresa May on social media memes.
>> No. 82936 Anonymous
14th June 2017
Wednesday 9:54 pm
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>>82935
Sorry, you're right. When Tim Farron publicly supports same-sex marriage, he's betraying his religion, whereas when Theresa May publicly supports same-sex marriage, she really means it.

I've got a bridge you might be interested in.

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>> No. 64250 Anonymous
15th July 2015
Wednesday 6:46 pm
64250 US elections 2016
This man is going to be the next President of the US and it's going to be fucking awesome.
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>> No. 82870 Anonymous
11th June 2017
Sunday 2:24 pm
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>>82868
>I would like to see more world leaders do this kind of thing, only way to deal with him.

As much as I'd love to see the Tony Blair version I don't know what good former politicians rehabilitating their legacy would achieve.
>> No. 82872 Anonymous
11th June 2017
Sunday 4:07 pm
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/11/donald-trump-state-visit-to-britain-put-on-hold
>> No. 82876 Anonymous
11th June 2017
Sunday 7:37 pm
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Of course, the best part about all of this is that we can't be shot of Trump. Just look down the order of succession and see the cunts that would replace him. Remember that for any of those people on the list to reach the presidency, everyone above them has to come and go, and their jobs have to remain vacant. If Mike Pence takes the reins, only if nobody is appointed to replace him does Paul Ryan get a go.
>> No. 82879 Anonymous
11th June 2017
Sunday 7:47 pm
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>>82872
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/873919798161412096

Fast times
>> No. 82883 Anonymous
12th June 2017
Monday 1:11 am
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>>82868
Yep, this youtube video sure will be what takes him down.

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>> No. 80668 Anonymous
2nd December 2016
Friday 12:09 pm
80668 spacer
What an upset, also a pleasant surprise.

Perhaps the Lib Dems can make a comeback at the next election.
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>> No. 82811 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 11:07 pm
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>>82810
Because they're not human.
>> No. 82843 Anonymous
10th June 2017
Saturday 5:47 pm
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>>80686
>If you were getting grilled at work by somebody and getting paid 75k a year, no matter how unfairly you perceived it, you wouldn't just walk out would you?

I'd fire them for insubordination.
>> No. 82847 Anonymous
10th June 2017
Saturday 7:34 pm
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>>80686
Corbs has done exactly the same to be honest.
>> No. 82867 Anonymous
11th June 2017
Sunday 12:45 pm
82867 spacer
>>82796
>Never kissed a LibDem.

Come on lad,
There's only one way to beat them
Get round the back


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqvxRVSLrcM
>> No. 82873 Anonymous
11th June 2017
Sunday 4:32 pm
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>>82867

Jesus wept. It's as if the lib dems don't want to be taken seriously.

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>> No. 82568 Anonymous
7th June 2017
Wednesday 6:49 pm
82568 1984 Internet
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/theresa-may-internet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html

Justify this, Tory voters.
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>> No. 82572 Anonymous
8th June 2017
Thursday 2:58 am
82572 spacer
I don't think it's a party political issue. A Labour government instituted the first Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. Blair was mad keen on identity cards and instituted vast swathes of dodgy counter-terrorism legislation. The majority of Labour MPs voted aye on the final reading of the 2016 RIPA; Corbyn and Abbott both abstained.

I think that the general public are just very ignorant about technology, so the cry that "something must be done" is far louder than any voices of caution. Encryption is too boring and technical for the mainstream media to talk about in any meaningful way.
>> No. 82814 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 11:46 pm
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>>82572
N-Now now lad, don't you go pointing out the commies crimes and injustices! W-why everyone knows everything bad right now is because of the last 2 Governments!
>> No. 82817 Anonymous
10th June 2017
Saturday 1:38 am
82817 spacer
>>82814
I don't think you can really blame the other lot when you've had two parliaments in which to fix things. In most jobs, if you just slacked off and blamed everything on the guy that was there before you, your prospects wouldn't look too good.
>> No. 82818 Anonymous
10th June 2017
Saturday 1:54 am
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>>82814
>Blair
>"Commie"
>> No. 82819 Anonymous
10th June 2017
Saturday 2:55 am
82819 spacer
>>82817

I'm not blaming either party, that's my entire point. Neither side can be trusted with the internet, because neither they nor the general public understand it. The media has comprehensively failed to communicate the issues and the tech industry hasn't lobbied effectively to defend internet freedoms. There's also a peculiar acceptance of surveillance in this country, as shown by our extraordinarily high per-capita number of CCTV cameras.

Blaming surveillance on the Tories won't help, because a Labour government would do pretty much exactly the same. Parliament is stuffed to the rafters with PPE graduates and old codgers who just don't understand the value of encryption and an open internet. It's up to savvy, privacy-conscious people to push the issue.

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>> No. 82634 Anonymous
8th June 2017
Thursday 10:54 pm
82634 spacer
After this election, this man is going to be the next Prime Minister and it's going to be fucking awesome.
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>> No. 82774 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 3:08 pm
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>>82773
>That's how you calculate swing from the Conservatives to Labour, specifically .
Erm, yes. That being what swing is. A change in relative vote share between two parties.

>that would be a fucking stupid thing to talk about in an election where the collapse of support for third parties was a major factor.
You appear to have misspelled "important" as "stupid" there.
>> No. 82775 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 3:17 pm
82775 spacer
>>82774
No, sunshine, that's what two party swing is. The clue that I wasn't talking about two party swing was that I didn't mention two parties.
>> No. 82777 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 3:25 pm
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>>82775
>No, sunshine, that's what two party swing is.
Well, yes, what with there being literally no other meaningful measure of swing. Otherwise you end up saying stupid things like how Corbyn isn't so bad because he gained 10 points. Then you have to accept other stupid things like how May brilliantly delivered the Tories their best total since 1992 and their best share since 1983. All of which would be monumentally stupid things to say.
>> No. 82778 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 3:31 pm
82778 spacer
>>82777
Yes, there are in fact other meaningful measures of swing, and two party swing is particularly unhelpful when, I repeat, collapsing support for third parties is a major factor influencing the outcome. Never mind, though. We all make mistakes sometimes.
>> No. 82780 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 3:40 pm
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>>82778
>and two party swing is particularly unhelpful when, I repeat, collapsing support for third parties is a major factor influencing the outcome
Yes, if by unhelpful you mean helpful. Otherwise, no.

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>> No. 82607 Anonymous
8th June 2017
Thursday 9:16 pm
82607 US impeachment thread 2017
This man is going to fuck the President of the US and it's going to be fucking awesome.
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>> No. 82627 Anonymous
8th June 2017
Thursday 10:29 pm
82627 spacer
>>82626
And entirely fueled by the inter webs. I have loved it too. I thought it would end in tears, of course, but not so soon. To fuck up so badly so early on; bewildering.
>> No. 82664 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 12:19 am
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>>82627

>To fuck up so badly so early on; bewildering.

Sad!
>> No. 82738 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 8:27 am
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One rare upside to Trump getting elected is watching the grey, cringing invertebrates who pass for his supporters contort and twist themselves into ever more agonising knots of desperation and irrationality as they rush to defend his latest gaffe.

If you ever question your worth as a human being, take a quick trip over to /r/The_Donald just after Trump fucks up and have a read of the justifications they offer for it. I confidently guarantee you hours of amusement.
>> No. 82745 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 10:01 am
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I have a nasty feeling he'll get away scot free. If impeached, ex post pardoning.
>> No. 82761 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 1:18 pm
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>>82745
No point pardoning him since he hasn't done all that much to support criminal charges. As Comey said to the committee yesterday, it was everyone around him that was doing all that. Manafort, Flynn, Kushner, et al.

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>> No. 79922 Anonymous
10th November 2016
Thursday 2:41 pm
79922 UK election 2020
This man is going to be the next UK Prime Minister and it's going to be fucking awesome.
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>> No. 82177 Anonymous
21st April 2017
Friday 7:53 pm
82177 Question Time 2018
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This man is going to replace David Dimbleby, and it's going to be fucking awesome.
>> No. 82178 Anonymous
21st April 2017
Friday 8:34 pm
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>>82176
Huw Edwards was lined up to do the election in 2020, and is still the preferred successor for election night. I could see Marr taking on QT. He has the tenor to chair the debate and the hands to point at the audience members. John Humphrys has filled in before but he's only a few years younger than Dimbleby. Based on his performances on Newsnight, I'd keep an eye on James O'Brien.

My personal theory based on observations in 2010 and 2015 is that Dimbleby is actually dead and has been replaced by a robot. There's no way a 77 year old could have kept going from 10pm to 6pm with only a couple of hours sleep in the middle.
>> No. 82180 Anonymous
21st April 2017
Friday 10:22 pm
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>>82177
Oh Christ here we go again. Brace yourselves, lads.
>> No. 82746 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 10:03 am
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Bump
>> No. 82794 Anonymous
9th June 2017
Friday 7:23 pm
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>>82180
Thank god he stayed silent this election.

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>> No. 82553 Anonymous
28th May 2017
Sunday 1:29 pm
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This man is going to be the next Prime Minister of Canada and it's going to be fucking awesome.

Canada's opposition Conservative Party has just elected a new leader. He is primarily known as a backbencher, and beat out senior party figures, including former ministers, to the job. Despite being somewhat popular with the party members, he is considerably to the right of centre, and people are already suggesting that his positions are reminiscent of something out of the 1980s. So far the response from several MPs from the governing Liberal Party has been along the lines of "well this is going to make the next election much easier".

Remind you of anyone?
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>> No. 82554 Anonymous
28th May 2017
Sunday 2:59 pm
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I could not give less of a shit about the Canadian opposition if I tried.
>> No. 82555 Anonymous
28th May 2017
Sunday 7:35 pm
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Canadian politicians are a fucking train wreck across the spectrum.
>> No. 82565 Anonymous
6th June 2017
Tuesday 8:57 am
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>>82553

Well he's not ugly as a brick wall so he's in with some facet of a chance.

The problem is that Trudeau is also ULTRA open to immigration so I assume the Chinese and Indians will still vote for lolWeedman while calling this guy an ultra right wing nationalist for asking something like 'where do we get the money for these programs now our oil sales are ruined?'.

But given the world standard, Trudeau will win and whoever is opposed to him will just fade into nothing unless he manages something akin to a 49/51 parliamentary split.
>> No. 82566 Anonymous
6th June 2017
Tuesday 9:38 pm
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I was reading up on Canadian politics the other day and while we might complain about our MPs, those cunts get ~£100k + expenses.
>> No. 82567 Anonymous
6th June 2017
Tuesday 10:04 pm
82567 spacer
>>82566
Only thanks to Brexit. Before sterling fell off a cliff it was only around £80k, and the consensus among people who aren't reactionary cunts is that our own MPs were substantially underpaid until recently.

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>> No. 82562 Anonymous
1st June 2017
Thursday 4:29 pm
82562 Nige 007
I suspect nothing major will come from this, but it gave me a chuckle all the same.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/01/Jimmy-Saville-is-person-of-interest-in-fbi-investigation-into-trump-and-russia
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>> No. 82563 Anonymous
1st June 2017
Thursday 8:23 pm
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Dead link friend.
>> No. 82564 Anonymous
1st June 2017
Thursday 8:31 pm
82564 spacer
>>82563
No, just the wordfilter. I'll let you figure it out.

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>> No. 82312 Anonymous
7th May 2017
Sunday 2:20 pm
82312 Fucking Tory pigs must die
If you voted Tory, or intend to in future then please please please take your own life immediately. You are an enemy of humanity and you are too stupid to continue living.
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>> No. 82510 Anonymous
17th May 2017
Wednesday 7:45 pm
82510 spacer
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100...

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.
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>> No. 82511 Anonymous
17th May 2017
Wednesday 7:52 pm
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>>82510
Neither relevant or by David R Kamerschen.
>> No. 82512 Anonymous
17th May 2017
Wednesday 8:22 pm
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>>82510
1. what is it with neoclassical cocksuckers and stupid analogies
2. all this does is create an argument for multilateral capital controls (i.e. keynes clearing union or something) as a contingency necessary for basically all major countries. (suppose the necessity to jack taxes up arises - let's say hitler comes back and WW4 starts: if the rich can all just hop off to the cayman islands, that's a problem for everyone except Helen Kilpatrick...)
>> No. 82545 Anonymous
25th May 2017
Thursday 8:31 am
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>>82509

Me and 4 other mates off to the isle of man with our It company, shit weather but less shit iykwim.
>> No. 82546 Anonymous
25th May 2017
Thursday 10:17 am
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>>82510
Ermergerd stupidest thing I've ever read. Public services aren't beer and there is more than one type of tax. And as above multilateral capital controls.

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>> No. 82497 Anonymous
16th May 2017
Tuesday 2:19 pm
82497 Trump impeachement... pending
What exactly is it that the man needs to do to get impeached? There seems to be a scandal that would damn any other leader every week.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/ar-BBBaWuJ
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>> No. 82540 Anonymous
23rd May 2017
Tuesday 11:45 pm
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>>82539
>Mike Pence
Is that the sole reason he put him on his vice president ticket? Insurance?

I have to give it to him. He may seems like a moron but he is actually quite clever.
>> No. 82541 Anonymous
23rd May 2017
Tuesday 11:53 pm
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>>82540
If your clock stops at just the right time ...
>> No. 82542 Anonymous
24th May 2017
Wednesday 12:53 pm
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>>82540

Trump polled quite badly amongst traditional conservative Christian republicans. He isn't very religious (probably atheist or agnostic) and is socially liberal. A number of churches opposed his candidacy. Pence was selected primarily to appease those voters.
>> No. 82543 Anonymous
24th May 2017
Wednesday 6:24 pm
82543 spacer
But it's not just scandal is it, it needs to be an impeachable offence that can stand up in court. So what has he done that he can definitely be prosecuted for?
>> No. 82544 Anonymous
24th May 2017
Wednesday 9:14 pm
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>>82543
You haven't quite grasped how this works. Let me translate some of those terms for you:

>impeachable offence
Anything that will pass the House by simple majority.

>can stand up in court
Senators can bring themselves to vote for it.

While the Supreme Court haven't entirely ruled it out, they have declined to hear every appeal against impeachment that has been put to them, and if one takes the Constitution at its face then there is no right of appeal against conviction. However, to convict requires a two-thirds majority in the Senate and, unlike the filibuster, it's not a procedural rule but mandated by the Constitution.

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>> No. 82525 Anonymous
20th May 2017
Saturday 6:15 am
82525 Facebook blocks Pulitzer-winning reporter over Malta government exposé
Remember when we started talking about Facebook gaining a worrying power to censor the news?

>Facebook has censored a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist for publishing a series of posts alleging corruption by the prime minister of Malta and his associates. Matthew Caruana Galizia, a member of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists’ award-winning Panama Papers team, was temporarily locked out of his Facebook account over four posts, which were deleted for violating the social network’s community standards.

>“For me, this process was enlightening because I realised how crippling and punitive this block is for a journalist,” Caruana Galizia told the Guardian by email.

>The posts, which were written in Maltese, contained allegations of wrongdoing by prime minister Joseph Muscat, his chief of staff Keith Schembri, and minister of energy Konrad Mizzi. Each post included images of documents from the Panama Papers leak. The censorship of Caruana Galizia comes amid considerable political turmoil and intrigue in the Mediterranean island nation, where a snap election is scheduled for 3 June. It also again raises concerns over Facebook’s incredible power to disseminate – or block – news and information.

>On 7 May, Matthew Caruana Galizia, who is the son of Daphne Caruana Galizia, began publishing his own reporting on offshore companies and Maltese political figures on his Facebook page, using the hashtags #FattiKorrotti and #CorruptionFacts. The posts include scans of documents from the Panama Papers, including passports, bank statements, and letters, as well as Caruana Galizia’s explanation of their meaning.

>On Tuesday 16 May, Caruana Galizia was locked out of his account for 24 hours. Several #FattiKorrotti posts were deleted.

>The deletions raise questions about how Facebook moderates journalism. In 2016, the social media site ignited a global controversy when it censored an iconic Vietnam war photograph of a naked child fleeing a Napalm attack. Facebook initially defended its decision, going so far as to delete a post by the Norwegian prime minister, because it was consistent with its policy barring nudity. Facebook subsequently amended its policy, announcing that it would allow people to publish material that would otherwise violate its standards if it was found to be “newsworthy, significant, or important to the public interest”.

>Documents related to alleged wrongdoing by public officials in the weeks before an election are in the public interest, and they have certainly been deemed newsworthy by the Maltese press, which has followed Caruana Galizia’s lead in reporting on them. “It’s important that journalists can publish information that is in the public interest,” a Facebook spokesperson said in a statement. “We are investigating these posts and have spoken with Mr Caruana Galizia today so that he can publish what he needs to, without including unnecessary private details that could present safety risks. If we find that we have made errors, we will correct them.”
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>> No. 82533 Anonymous
22nd May 2017
Monday 6:28 pm
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>>82532

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1TnzCiUSI0
>> No. 82534 Anonymous
22nd May 2017
Monday 8:37 pm
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>>82533
How old is this?
>> No. 82535 Anonymous
22nd May 2017
Monday 8:44 pm
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>>82534

The Youtube video, oct 8 2005.

The jokes, old as time it self.
>> No. 82536 Anonymous
22nd May 2017
Monday 9:17 pm
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>>82535
You've managed to trigger my PTSD.
>> No. 82537 Anonymous
23rd May 2017
Tuesday 9:35 am
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>>82536

You are reminded of trauma old as time it self?

whiteline
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