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>> No. 27588 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 4:52 pm
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I feel like as I'm getting older, the people around me are getting shittier and shittier attitudes about women and girls.

I'm 28 years old, and all of a sudden now I'm starting to see a lot of blokes who will talk about the need to hang and castrate carpet-baggers but in the same breath, they will brag about how they much they want to do all sorts to "schoolies". I've told a mate that at this point that attitude is pretty fucking suspect and that it is carpet-bagger behaviour. Further to that, I seem to, now and then, be told proof of someone's very questionable behaviour regarding this type of thing and when I challenge it I tend to be met with silence. What I'm finding is that people seem to have an unusual tolerance of things they abhor if it's someone they know doing it, "oh he's a scumbag but he's alright if you know him". This goes for a few other things, not just grown men being perverts.

Similarly, I'm starting to find men my age are becoming more and more bitter about women. I hear a lot of men talking about how women will make up stories about abuse, yet the same men demonstrate behaviours that would indicate they're definitely the types to carry out abuse themselves or turn a blind eye to it. It's a constant "us VS them" argument, a lot of it seems to be totally exaggerated though.

How common is this for others, or am I just in a really shitty circle of friends?
Expand all images.
>> No. 27589 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 4:59 pm
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Honestly, none of what you're describing seems normal. My friend group is not the most politically correct and I doubt you'd ever find us down the pub wringing our hands about the gender pay gap or anything, but if one of us started talking how you describe, I'd be very concerned, and I doubt they would escape criticism.

I know the current political climate has allowed 4chan to leak out into the real world a little bit, but then again even my dodgiest of mates wouldn't feel comfortable talking about how much they want to fuck a schoolgirl in a social setting.

I think you just have shitty friends, honestly, and it's obvious you're not particularly in line with their views, so I'd suggest distancing yourself.
>> No. 27591 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 5:02 pm
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The polarisation that is characteristic of some Internet discussions has certainly crept into the RL recently. I do notice it too at times although in the country I live currently it's less visible.

Think that in the past the Net and the RL used to be rather separate entities; it is the recent few years that they started to really converge, and it shows.

I have yet to see something crass though.

> I hear a lot of men talking about how women will make up stories about abuse, yet the same men demonstrate behaviours that would indicate they're definitely the types to carry out abuse themselves or turn a blind eye to it.
For every piece of molten bread there is a piece of rancid cheese as my grandma said once.
>> No. 27593 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 5:19 pm
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>>27589

The one in question who I've quoted, I've kept away from him just out of principal now, because I think there's humour and there's also saying shit that's just really telling. I've basically asked a mate why he seems to tolerate it, and the most I've got is "oh he's a sound lad" but god forbid if a fucking non-white does it, I'll hear about it for days.

Just don't know how I got to a point in which I seem to only be surrounded by really shitty dickheads.
>> No. 27596 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 5:34 pm
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>>27593

>I've basically asked a mate why he seems to tolerate it, and the most I've got is "oh he's a sound lad" but god forbid if a fucking non-white does it, I'll hear about it for days.

>Just don't know how I got to a point in which I seem to only be surrounded by really shitty dickheads.

This might sound blunt, but are you/were you poor? These attitudes seem very familiar in my experiences of growing up in horrible council estates and flat roofed pubs. Bitter old men who blame everyone and anyone for their own shitty situation.
>> No. 27597 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 5:35 pm
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>>27588

>I'm starting to find men my age are becoming more and more bitter about women.

What is your age and how much do said friends get laid and what kind of relations have they had in the past? I feel like these details are cruital to me forming a picture of them and how 'normal' they are.
>> No. 27598 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 5:36 pm
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>>27597

The first line of the post is his age.
>> No. 27599 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 5:53 pm
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I have a terrible attitude to women. I really don't like them very much.
>> No. 27600 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 6:16 pm
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I think you've just matured more than some of your mates. It might be time to find people more on your wavelength.

As a society, we've always been a bunch of nasty misogynistic bastards. We started to realise it at some point in the last couple of decades. Some people have got the memo quicker than others. I mean, check the fucking state of this:


>> No. 27601 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 6:59 pm
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>>27598

Thanks I don't know why I didn't assimilate that information.

>I'm 28 years old, and all of a sudden now I'm starting to see a lot of blokes who will talk about the need to hang and castrate carpet-baggers but in the same breath, they will brag about how they much they want to do all sorts to "schoolies". I've told a mate that at this point that attitude is pretty fucking suspect and that it is carpet-bagger behaviour. Further to that, I seem to, now and then, be told proof of someone's very questionable behaviour regarding this type of thing and when I challenge it I tend to be met with silence. What I'm finding is that people seem to have an unusual tolerance of things they abhor if it's someone they know doing it, "oh he's a scumbag but he's alright if you know him". This goes for a few other things, not just grown men being perverts

I think there is a disconect between the bogey men of their mind and the reality, and they haven't reconsiled it. I've heard it said before 'sexual harrasment is the crime of ugly people', as the attractive can get away with outrageous things and it is just accepted by everyone involved. I consider this to be the same, your friend doesn't look like a carpet-bagger so everyone accepts it.


>Similarly, I'm starting to find men my age are becoming more and more bitter about women. I hear a lot of men talking about how women will make up stories about abuse, yet the same men demonstrate behaviours that would indicate they're definitely the types to carry out abuse themselves or turn a blind eye to it. It's a constant "us VS them" argument, a lot of it seems to be totally exaggerated though.

I think a lot of the hatred of women is bitterness about failure to achieve the relationship they want sour grapes as it were.

I think they are normal in that there seems to be a lot of it around in pop culture at the moment, the zeitgeist has started treating personal problems as systermatic and unsolvable/the fault of some invisible oppersition rather than an issue with personal attitude/self improvement and I think this is only going to make society sicker, we are living in the age of sour grapes.

We have all without realising it become social marxists in the true dialectic materialist sense of the term even the right wing, blaming bogey men for our short commings believing ourselves to be the oppressed true believers, we think 'the system' is all powerful, whatever it may be yet we don't play by the systems rules or try to change it, we stubbonly stand our ground expecting something that isn't us, and we have no power to change, to change out of nowhere.
>> No. 27602 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 7:52 pm
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I think men who aren't particularly intelligent don't notice cognitive dissonance like that.

I've also noticed a lot of men reacting in very telling mammalian ways, psychologically speaking, to trauma that centres on their relationships with women. It's a generalised learned response, much like what happens to kids who get bitten by dogs as children. They're scared of all dogs, not just Jack Russels, etc.
>> No. 27603 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 8:09 pm
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I'm not defending the OP's friends at all. The "schoolies" thing doesn't even qualify as a bad joke. That said, at least a couple of things in this thread has made me want to speak from another perspective.

>>27602

Just flip the genders here. Would you say a woman who's had bad experiences with a man and is weary of men is reacting to a 'mammalian part of their brain'?

And the OP:
>I hear a lot of men talking about how women will make up stories about abuse, yet the same men demonstrate behaviours that would indicate they're definitely the types to carry out abuse themselves or turn a blind eye to it.

Seeming like you might be abusive and actually abusing someone are two entirely different things, just think of all the lovely sound people who are actually downright nasty to their loved ones.

It's this sort of thing that gets my back up. I'm not an MRA, or a misogynist, or whatever else. But there does seem to be this constant, pervasive tendency to give certain groups of people the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt is an surprisingly powerful thing.

I hope I'm not shutting up the OP's thread by saying this, but I think a large part of the reason that young men become such abrasive twats is because of a sheer lack of compassion and empathy -- they obnoxiously reject cultural movements about acceptance because they've been taught they're on their own.

It sounds like the OPs friends may be a bit far gone, but this sort of behaviour (in my view) is almost certainly a result of not being able to handle the emotional and social expectations we have of young men in particular.
>> No. 27604 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 8:23 pm
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>>27603
>Would you say a woman who's had bad experiences with a man and is weary of men is reacting to a 'mammalian part of their brain'?

No, because that isn't scientifically accurate. I would say that it's a learned response brought on by trauma, which it is.
>> No. 27605 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 8:38 pm
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>>27604

So I paraphrased your post poorly, you were talking about a learned response brought about by conditioning. But my point was about the varying degrees of sympathy we have for people based on their gender, social status, and probably lots of other prejudices.

I suspect the reason young men develop such awful, mean-spirited attitudes is because of a very basic lack of concern shown for their well-being by society as a whole. We put young men in an impossible double-bind of rewarding their confidence/punishing their timidness, while also suffocating them of any compassion. The result is the kind of tedious edgelords the OP describes. What's more, I don't think it's entirely fair to hold the result against them, it is extremely hard to emerge from that situation as a healthy, well-adjusted, social being.
>> No. 27606 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 8:49 pm
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>>27605
This is sounding fairly anecdotal at this point. On of the most important things that predicts success in the workplace, i.e. conscientiousness, is more prevalent in males so that can't possibly be true.

Trauma never leaves a specific imprint. It's always generalised. Scratched by a ginger cat, scared of all cats not just ginger ones or that specific one. You're confusing peer pressure with societal pressure, also. There is no societal pressure on men to be arseholes. There is a lot of peer pressure on certain men based on their peer group to act in certain ways, though.

Now, the reason people knee jerk about brown skinned people is again a generalised response to trauma. Terrorism has caused that, in the same way men with shitty attitudes towards women were created by traumatic relationships with women.

The psychology is clear. What yours is telling me is that you feel abandoned by society and have experienced nothing but cold indifference in your life, and the trauma of that is causing you to generalise. It's a cognitive bias and not necessarily accurate though, mate.
>> No. 27607 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 8:59 pm
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>>27606

I disagree with a number of things you've said there and think you've used a poor example (success in the workplace is not necessarily indicative of a healthy social life) but can't spend much more time tonight hammering out posts.

Instead I'll put the question to you again, would you be coming up with such a strictly individual and behavioural explanation if a woman were telling you she was wary of men due to some past trauma? At what point does it become 'fair' generalisation? What's more, how many people does it have to happen to before it becomes a tangible, real world phenomenon?
>> No. 27608 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 9:14 pm
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>>27607
>if a woman were telling you she was wary of men due to some past trauma?
Yes, I would. Who said anything about it being fair? If you interpreted that as being a rational response to trauma, I have serious concerns.
>> No. 27611 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 10:05 pm
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>>27588
I think as one gets older, you become more confident about what you do/don't stand for. Or maybe you just have a shitty circle of friends.

Life is too short to hang about with people/friends you don't like.
>> No. 27613 Anonymous
29th October 2018
Monday 10:33 pm
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>>27611
>Life is too short to hang about with people/friends you don't like.

I'd do anything to hang out with people I don't like let alone anything else.
>> No. 27616 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 1:29 am
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Personally I find open racism, misogyny, and various other views considered to be off-kilter refreshing because it shows I'm talking to someone who hasn't been blindly indoctrinated with RightThink. It seems to me that you can have more genuine conversations with people who don't self-censor.
>> No. 27617 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 3:45 am
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>>27588

As regards your second point:

Google the "manosphere" which is the internet for chauvinistic men (the survivors of the PUA explosion of about a decade ago), or go for a wander down r/Thesissify or just google "the red pill".

These aren't isolated beliefs, they're thoughts conceived of independently by various men who have then found each other through the internet.

I would not personally consider any echo chamber of this type to be healthy, but then what the fuck does a random cunt posting at bollocks o'clock know about anything?

As regards the "schoolies" regards, sixteen is and has always been pretty acceptable and sixth formers (17-18) are definitely open season for a lad in his uni years. Now, if your thirties and your mates and eyeing up the schoolgirl talent using their sister's driving license to get served then maybe it's time to rethink the company you keep.
>> No. 27620 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 1:27 pm
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>>27616
People who aren't "blindly indoctrinated with RightThink" can be tedious in their own way. I've known people who could turn any conversation about any topic into a rant about how globalist Jews are ruining the world and promoting white genocide. Even fairly innocuous subjects, like talking about the Star Wars series, turned into "the latest Star Wars films star a black/a woman which is proof Hollywood Jews are trying to push that women and blacks are equal" and shit like that.

Having lots of experience with both sides of the spectrum (self censoring SJWs parroting whatever dogma the left wing media comes up with versus the alt-right shitlords deifying Trump and trying to trigger snowflakes), they're both tiresome.
>> No. 27621 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 1:36 pm
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>>27606

>Now, the reason people knee jerk about brown skinned people is again a generalised response to trauma. Terrorism has caused that

In my experience, racism was considerably worse in the 80s when Irish people did most of the terrorism.
>> No. 27623 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 2:02 pm
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>>27607
>>27608

Men are generally physically larger than women so could usually outmatch them in a physical fight, even if it wouldn't be in a specific guy's character to do so. It would be reasonable for younger kids to be more wary of older kids, and reasonable for someone to be more wary of a pit bull than a chihuahua.
>> No. 27624 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 5:21 pm
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>>27588

you're an edgy and annoying stereotype, looking for a way to seem different now that what was different seems blase to your enervated sensibilities.

>>27620

tell 'em, Steve-Dave
>> No. 27626 Anonymous
30th October 2018
Tuesday 6:05 pm
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I've been hurt pretty badly by a series of women throughout my life. Whilst I, as a rational individual, obviously try my best not to hold it against the gender as a whole, I think it's at least reasonably understandable that I find myself expressing what might be called jaded opinions on occasion.

I don't see myself as a helpless victim, I don't try and plead sympathy for all the wrongs that have been inflicted upon me over the years. I certainly don't think of myself as an innocent soul who has been unfairly persecuted, because the real world simply isn't that black and white. I've caused hurt as well as been caused it, surely. But at the same time, I don't think it's asking a lot for folk to be forgiven a degree of cynicism when you've had bad experiences in something- There seems to be this underlying current of modern society where we expect people to be totally detached and clinical about their emotions, as though there are some emotions you don't have a right to harbour and should try to change. I don't think it's entirely healthy.

The poly thing somebody mentioned in another thread is a good example. I've heard about one of my friends past relationships ending because her (supposedly also poly) fella get jealous, and it all got a bit nasty. It's not "allowed" to be jealous, in that context, because you're agreeing to knob other people. It's illogical. But that simply isn't always how our feelings work.

I think that perspective and empathy is what's missing from a lot of discourse nowadays, whether it's just a casual pub discussion or an internet flamewar. People have varying experiences in life which inform their beliefs. Those beliefs may well be misguided but I think people would on the whole learn to accept and treat each other much more respectfully if they put themselves in other people's shoes more often. It applies to both sides. The women who sit on twitter all day complaining about rape culture and microagressions need to show a little more compassion towards the kind of guy who's had his house, car and kids stolen by some bint who's off fucking someone else. Those same men need to show a little more compassion for the women who feel unsafe to walk the streets of their home after dark and feel like they are threatened daily by inconsiderate behaviours.

People need to understand that there is no us vs them, it's not really about gender or colour or creed, only bad people being bad people in various ways. But with a media dead set on propagating this deeply rooted social fracture and perpetuate division, I don't see it happening any time soon.
>> No. 27632 Anonymous
31st October 2018
Wednesday 3:08 am
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>>27626

> The women who sit on twitter all day complaining about rape culture and microagressions need to show a little more compassion towards the kind of guy who's had his house, car and kids stolen by some bint who's off fucking someone else. Those same men need to show a little more compassion for the women who feel unsafe to walk the streets of their home after dark and feel like they are threatened daily by inconsiderate behaviours.

Common sense, on my Britfa?
>> No. 27638 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 3:17 pm
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>>27617
TRP is a strange thing. For one, they got quite a lot of things right (the self-improvement angle, for example). For other, they seem to be somewhat unhealthily obsessed with sex and right-wing politics.

I'm unsure how I relate towards their views about women but I have certainly witnessed the AF/BB stuff live; one lass went as far as admitting it openly. And that one wasn't even the 'worst' one.

At times, they seem like a cult to me. Especially when for some reason I happen to read another 'field report'.

>>27620
> Having lots of experience with both sides of the spectrum (self censoring SJWs parroting whatever dogma the left wing media comes up with versus the alt-right shitlords deifying Trump and trying to trigger snowflakes), they're both tiresome.
Quite. I'm mildly more comfortable with the TRP folk though, as much as they annoy me with the dating and political bollocks.
>> No. 27639 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 3:30 pm
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>>27638

I feel similarly about TRP. Their core idea is true self improvement, the behavioural theories are pretty observably accurate, but everyone who participates in the community seems to have a fucking disgusting attitude or are still weird maladjusted social outcasts, despite having laid claim to the 'secret' of social engagement.

A book like No More Mr. Nice Guy does a better job of suggesting that the way you're supposed to act to attract the opposite sex can seem counter intuitive to those of a certain disposition, without jumping off the deep end about men's rights.

TRP also seems to align itself with racism and extreme right wing views, which isn't really my thing either. I'm afraid that a lot of young impressionables will take the good advice, like, hit the gym and be confident, realise it works, then conflate the rest of the philosophy, like, women are awful and white men are the best, and assimilate those views too.
>> No. 27640 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 4:15 pm
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>>27639
Interesting enough, that book is usually included into their must-read lists.
AFAIK some of the former participants tend to view TRP as a stage in life, when a Nice Guy on his way out overdoes it and goes right on the other side of the spectrum (which is astutely observed by Dr Glover and succintly put as 'the opposite of crazy is still crazy').
>> No. 27641 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 5:07 pm
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>>27638

>the linking of self improvement and right wing politics

The detail you are missing there is the false dilemma in American politics at the moment. The 'New left' doesn't acknowledge the value of things being earned, they see it as a cover for privilege a lie as it were. So this pushes the idea that self improvement and the idea you succeed from hard work into the right wing.
>> No. 27642 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 5:15 pm
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I wish my problems were as petty as what the people around me think

get over yourself.
>> No. 27643 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 5:18 pm
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>>27641
> The detail you are missing there is the false dilemma in American politics at the moment.
Maybe.
Mostly because I don't care about either really, take the good things, throw the bad out. Sometimes works, sometimes not.
>> No. 27644 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 5:38 pm
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>>27643

I think he sort of has a point. Current generation American politics, being the wholly toxic online based mess it is, has this awful clash between a bastardised misunderstanding of Marxism, and a half baked fantasy version of Libertarianism. It's a tragic state of affairs really, but in that context it's easy to see why young white men get drawn into this wierd objectivist power trip. It should be noted that their counterparts are just as equally drawn to the opposite, the disturbingly fetishised oppression olympics for more or less mirrored reasons.

It's a very depressing future we are moving towards the more it catches on over here.
>> No. 27645 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 5:41 pm
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>>27641
>The 'New left' doesn't acknowledge the value of things being earned, they see it as a cover for privilege a lie as it were.
Without wanting to sound too provocative, they have empirical evidence to back that up.
>> No. 27646 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 5:47 pm
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>>27645

They do, but they think that privilege comes from skin colour and sex, not from sheer wealth. They have the cart before the horse.
>> No. 27647 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 6:02 pm
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>>27646
So it's coincidence that the wealth happens to be concentrated among upper class white men? Were this not /emo/ I'd explain why you're wrong, but it isn't. I'd be happy to continue this in /pol/ if you want to bring it up there.
>> No. 27648 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 6:07 pm
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I have to say, I'm quite saddened to see some of you speaking in remotely positive terms about "red pill" ideology. It's inherently tied to the far right, and as annoying as you might have found SJWs on your Twitter timelines and your Snapchats or whatever you kids are up to right now, even if you follow their spiele down its blackest, darkest, most corrupted hole, it never leads to the extermination of undesirables or the disenfranchisement of women from public life.

>>27646
Both are clearly a factor, to claim otherwise is at best blitheringly stupid. I've seen racism happening, mate, in the flesh, the income levels of the respective participents wasn't a factor. I've also seen what an upside down economic system that thinks "wealth creation" is the be-all and end-all does, but that doesn't disprove or dismiss racism.
>> No. 27649 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 6:19 pm
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>>27648
> it never leads to the extermination of undesirables

It absolutely does.

> or the disenfranchisement of women from public life.
I know what you're getting at but I think this is part of a greater problem engrained in our evolution in which men become increasingly redundant. There's little more societally useless than a young man these days.
>> No. 27650 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 6:41 pm
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>>27647

Now that's just racist against Asians.
>> No. 27651 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 6:51 pm
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>>27647

It's not coincidence, it's that for the most part those wealthy white men and their successors have been holding the power since colonial days. But that doesn't mean white men have privilege. If China had beat Europe to it, we'd be having conversations about Oriental Privilege instead.

Of course I don't deny that racism and sexism are a thing, but the way your average neo-leftist talks about it you'd think any bloke on a council estate could walk out and become a millionaire because he won the genetic lottery, when that's just as patently ridiculous. There's no patriarchy, only the bourgeoisie. They keep everyone who isn't them down just the same.
>> No. 27652 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 7:06 pm
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>>27651
>But that doesn't mean white men have privilege
It kind of does. You can keep pretending that it doesn't, but ultimately as a white man in the US or Europe, you're statistically much more likely to have that wealth.

>but the way your average neo-leftist talks about it you'd think any bloke on a council estate could walk out and become a millionaire because he won the genetic lottery
Only if you deliberately distort it that way.
>> No. 27653 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 7:20 pm
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>>27648

I have to say I'm quite saddened that I'm unable to say something like "It's a shame the self improvement and human insight of TRP is marred by the rest of it being disgusting and racist" and still be shamed for it. This is exactly the issue I had when I was told that .gs was misogynist yesterday. I think some people are seeing only what they want to see.
>> No. 27654 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 7:23 pm
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>>27652

Statistics are great, but that still leaves millions of dirt poor white men out in the cold to vote for Trump and UKIP because you're too stubborn in your dogma to accept them. Keep up the good work.
>> No. 27655 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 7:37 pm
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>>27652
I did chuckle at the ridiculousness of that statement. Yeah that's what "leftists" think, the fools!
>> No. 27656 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:06 pm
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>>27653
>"It's a shame the self improvement and human insight of TRP is marred by the rest of it being disgusting and racist"

The problem is this stuff's completely overwhelmed by the nasty, small-mindedness of it. And that's the stuff that takes no effort, and therefore has a much greater spread. It's far easier to just start hating and mistrusting women than it is to get yourself down the gym three nights a week.

>>27654
Except no one ever says that "dirt poor white men" are VERBOTEN from "neo-leftism" (not a thing, by-the-by), just that they're less likely to get harrassed by the coppers, or have their arse felt up on the train. Right wingers enjoy pretending that social justice is anti-white male by misleading people with that idea, despite this being antithetical to the very concept of social justice.

I'm aware that a lot of young, Twitter based, left wingers often don't communicate these ideas terribly well, but that doesn't undermine the message itself in my opinion. Whereas something like "the red pill" is sitting quite happily in the same intellectual pool as a lot of baseless conspiracy thought and reactionary propaganda.
>> No. 27657 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:11 pm
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>>27656

>The problem is this stuff's completely overwhelmed by the nasty, small-mindedness of it.

I agree, which is why I said it's a shame. We appear to be arguing with each other about holding the same viewpoint. welcome to britfa.gs
>> No. 27658 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:14 pm
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>>27656

Poor white men really do get harassed by the coppers quite a bit. Maybe poor white women or black people still have it worse than the poor white men, but growing up in a near-slum council estate I find it hard to look back on any of it as privilege. But I'm a white bloke so I just have to man up about it, I suppose.
>> No. 27659 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:25 pm
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>>27658
I know, and I wouldn't presume to tell you you've lived life on easy street just because you're white, that would be horrible. All I'm saying is it's important to consider experiences based on ethnic or gendered qualities that you wouldn't have faced. No one hass ever refused to cross the street to talk to you because you're black, or shouted "laplander bastard!" and started a fight with you or found out you're Jewish and immediately began getting shirty about something the Israeli military did in Gaza recently. I'm saying this as a fellow white boy from a shitty area, for the record.

>But I'm a white bloke so I just have to man up about it, I suppose.
Don't take the piss.

>>27657
Yeah, I see that now. I just don't think it has enough redeeming qualities to be given any credit at all. It sounds a bit too "at least the trains ran on time" to my ears.
>> No. 27660 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:30 pm
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>>27653
I'll happily shame you for your usage of the word 'shame'. Fuck off back to SOAS.
>> No. 27661 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:33 pm
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>>27659

Look, I'm not about to get into slumdog top trumps on /emo/ of all places, but all I can tell you is that nobody I grew up with had even an inkling of a leg up on anyone else, regardless of colour. You can tell me I just can't see it all you want, that I'll never understand what it's like to be called a darkie, but I've been called plenty of things by coppers while they beat the fuck out of me for no reason so I don't really see much of a difference between me and the black lads I grew up with.

I'm very lefty, but I fully understand why poor white blokes are so very frustrated with their lot in life. They know they've had a fucking shit time of it, yet all they hear is how someone else had it worse so settle down.

I wasn't really taking the piss about the 'man up' thing. Despite everyone's best efforts to respect the power of privilege, a council estate white man is treated exactly how he's always been treated - ignored, passed over, and told his disadvantages either don't exist or are not relevant because he's white. And people wonder how the BNP get votes, seriously.
>> No. 27662 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 8:35 pm
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>>27660

What's a better word for being told it's 'disappointing' that you feel a certain way?
>> No. 27663 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 9:06 pm
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I guess a lot of the problem here is that there's lads like me and one or two others here, I think, who see social justice as a bit of a cop out from a proper upheaval of the economy. Economic justice you might call it. It is of my belief that none of the social justice issues would exist in any meaningful capacity if we sorted that out. Superficially they would perhaps, yeah, but that doesn't really matter when you're not actually any better or worse off than anyone else, and you can just as easily tell them to fuck off and mind their own business as they can you. I'm pretty content to tell someone who dislikes me right where they can fucking go, despite my white male privilege there are plenty of times in my life I've had to, and I feel like ethnic minorities and women would feel much more confident to do the same if they weren't shackled by the requirements life in modern capitalist society forces upon you. Social justice types of the more conventional vein seem to see the economic concern as secondary to that up front personal side where people are mean to you because of superficial skin deep traits, which sure, is terrible, but I see it as less important than pulling as many people out of poverty as possible. I feel like modern social justice rhetoric is actively harmful to that aim by furthering division and discontent between the groups it deems privileged and non-priveleged.

In short, I agree with the aims, of course I do. You can defend it by saying the young twitter types are just bad at getting the message across but I honestly think that's more of a cause for concern than you might think. Those gobshite students on about man size tissues and what have you seriously threaten the future of leftism.
>> No. 27664 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 9:12 pm
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>>27658
>Poor white men really do get harassed by the coppers quite a bit.
Nobody said they didn't. What has been said is that black men get harassed more, which, in spite of your blindness to it, is beyond any doubt.

>I find it hard to look back on any of it as privilege
Do you get stopped and searched in random places for no real reason? Do you get pulled over when driving a hire car? Do people assume you're a terrorist when you walk into places? Do people pass unwelcome comments about your chest or your arse? Do you get condescended to at work? Do people reach out and touch you inappropriately?

Privilege is a continuum. There are people below you, and there are people above you. To deny this is folly. Wealth inequality is intimately tied up with social inequality. People at the bottom can't catapult themselves to the top, and people at the top have a lot of strings preventing them from falling to the bottom. Ultimately, the economic and social discrimination of the past heavily influences economic and social inequality of the present.
>> No. 27665 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 9:46 pm
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>>27664

>which, in spite of your blindness to it

This is my point. You have no idea who I am or where I'm from, yet you're comfortable making assumptions about how I've been treated by society because of the colour of my skin. I don't think I need to point out the problem in that, despite your blindness to it.

>Do you get stopped and searched in random places for no real reason? Do you get pulled over when driving a hire car?

Yes, and I've talked about my troubles with ANPR here before. I've also been felt up inappropriately many times, but again, because I'm a white man, you assume my answers to any of these questions would be 'no'. I'm absolutely aware that privilege is a thing, but the hardline attitude that every white man has more of it than anyone else is simply not true, and just as offensive and dangerous as the minimisation or overlooking of the struggles any other part of our society.

I'm really not trying to wind you up here, I'm not trying to score points for my own kind, I wish we could move beyond it. I just think you need to step back a bit from your particular soapbox and realise your scope is off. If you want a soundbite, how about we talk about the disproportional suicide rate among this privileged class. Again, I wonder why.
>> No. 27666 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 9:47 pm
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>>27663

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. To me, at least in this country, the biggest divide is still class. The council estates are full of people of all colours, and the arguments about race or gender just distract - possibly deliberately - from the fact that the poor are poorer than they need to be, and are not looked after nearly as well as they should be. Universal Credit, shoddy mental health care in the NHS, lack of school funding in poor areas, all of this is about poverty rather than race.
>> No. 27667 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 10:09 pm
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Poverty Safari is a great book to read on the subject of wealth inequality.

Sage for whatever tangent this is veering off onto.
>> No. 27668 Anonymous
2nd November 2018
Friday 11:04 pm
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>>27666

Race is just a proxy for class in this country. Blacks and laplanderstanis get the shitty end of the stick because they're mostly working class, while Indians and the Chinese are doing better than whites on most measures because they're mostly middle class.

>lack of school funding in poor areas

That has reversed in recent years, but it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference to exam results.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46046310
>> No. 27669 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 12:18 am
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>>27666

>the arguments about race or gender just distract - possibly deliberately - from the fact that the poor are poorer than they need to be

Of course it's deliberate. Classic divide and conquer. What better way to keep the unwashed masses down than to have them all at each other's throat, instead of their common enemy?
>> No. 27676 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 2:09 pm
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>>27644
Yes.
Actually the reason why I don't like either. Both are shite when taken wholly.
>>27648
> even if you follow their spiele down its blackest, darkest, most corrupted hole, it never leads to the extermination of undesirables
'Die cis scum' is a thing, sadly. So both are on equal grounds.
>>27656
> Whereas something like "the red pill" is sitting quite happily in the same intellectual pool as a lot of baseless conspiracy thought and reactionary propaganda.
Agreed.
>> No. 27677 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 3:21 pm
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>>27676
>'Die cis scum' is a thing, sadly. So both are on equal grounds.
It's not much of a thing. I put it into twitter just now and scrolled back a bit, didn't see anyone saying it in anything that looked like sincerity. It seems to only relate to anti-TERF dialogues. It's definitely something that was hugely overblown by people making and spreading 'trans cringe' compilations. 'Kill whitey' is a much, much bigger thing but for whatever reasons it hasn't been pushed onto a larger audience.
>> No. 27678 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 3:28 pm
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>>27676
>'Die cis scum' is a thing, sadly. So both are on equal grounds.

Except it's a "thing" in as much as it was something someone said in a YouTube video 7 years ago, whilst clearly trying to be deliberately provocative. It's not actually anything to do with social justice and don't give me that "no true Scotsman, huh?" stuff because it's clearly a statement in opposition to the core tenants of social justice. Perhaps the person who made the statement felt differently, but their confusion over the matter doesn't make it any less incorrect. I could wear sky blue to Old Trafford, spend ninety minutes belting out Oasis songs, swear blind I'm a United fan, but that won't change what it means to be a United fan.

The reason I'm arguing so steadfastly about this is because the far-right thrive off this kind of false moral equivalence; the idea that if the far-right isn't victimising groups traditionally more enamered to the left, those groups, be it ethnic minorities, the LGBT community, women with dyed hair, would be enacting the same kind retribution on white men, is the moral justification for their world view. Fascism needs an alien threat to excuse its fundementally retrograde way of fixing problems the working classes face, but if people were to stop thinking of these groups as threatening aliens, the far-right facade of "us vs them" falls apart and with it the movement's entire rationale. Obviously all political ideologies have, to some extent, an "us vs them" mindset, but for the far-right it goes as far as war and extermination, not just who gets taxed what and what gets spent where, etc.
>> No. 27679 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 3:36 pm
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>>27678

I think the confusion here, lad, is that you think you are arguing with far right supporters. It's been previously established we are in fact lefties too, who feel the ess jay dubya lot give us a bad name.

False equivalence, us vs. them, whatever, those simpering twats are doing more to empower the right than any actual right winger. Trump didn't win because people like him, he won because the opposition was so catastrophically fucking shit. Brexit didn't happen because people hate foreigners, it happened because they are sick of being told how to think.

When will people like you start to understand this?
>> No. 27680 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 3:51 pm
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>>27679
I know exactly who I'm arguing with, that's why I haven't been swearing at you, I've been so good!

But what you are doing is giving the far-right an inch, when they're more than happy to take a mile. You can oppose the sillier parts of the SJW crowd perfectly reasonably, but what you're doing, by mistake, is giving credence to the idea that they're as irredeemably bad as a halfway-out-the-closet, dog whistle blowing, fascist. The two simply aren't on the same level. And Brexit and Trump happened for myriad reasons, but mostly people being skint, not because they got whinged at on Twitter by someone calling themselves non-binary. I'm not really sure why you think Hilary Clinton is some kind of bastien of social justice either, but I'd rather eat a hair gel meringue than discuss 2016 US election again, if it's all the same to you?

The point is that while lots of, mostly American, left wingers wind up on some smug git's YouTube channel, being mocked for acting daft in a fit of pique, that's not the same as the core beliefs of your politics ending in the extermination of undesirables.
>> No. 27681 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 4:20 pm
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>>27680

Do you think fascists should be killed?

(A good day to you Sir!)
>> No. 27682 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 4:33 pm
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Lads, this is /emo/. Take it elsewhere.
>> No. 27683 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 4:44 pm
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>>27681
U wot?

No. Is this a trick? Or did you see the time and immediately take the biggest bong rip in history, rendering yourself completely insensible?
>> No. 27684 Anonymous
3rd November 2018
Saturday 5:14 pm
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>>27679
> It's been previously established we are in fact lefties too, who feel the ess jay dubya lot give us a bad name.

Agree with you entirely, lad. I feel someone conflicted because while I find e.g. the Slut Walk inherently silly and counter-productive, I'd also fight to my dying breath (metaphorically obviously) for people to organize and attend such events - even if they are doing more harm than good.

But I guess that's another story.

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