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>> No. 28678 Anonymous
27th June 2019
Thursday 10:38 pm
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I seem to have removed myself completely from my original social background. I come from Shithole Post-industrial Town, UK, where my mum and dad continue to work unhappily. I've run the full gamut of postgraduate degrees and well paid corporate jobs. I've now secured a medical research job abroad.

I guess the effect was predictable enough in hindsight, but I realised recently that I now spend all of my time rubbing shoulders with academics, doctors, lawyers, engineers. And it's not just what they do, either. Their parents are always academics, doctors, lawyers, engineers.

It also goes beyond work. The girls I date, the friends I make at university, the people at my job, they're all thoroughly middle class. I don't think anyone realises how keenly I feel the differences, how painful it can be to notice them, or how much extra effort I've had to put in just to get here.

It's frustrating because it comes up in constantly, sometimes in really tangible ways (they'll always have savings accounts well built from their childhoods, will always have the money to go on expensive trips and eat out, they are not stressing about their next rent payment even when they're short) and sometimes more subtlely (social cues, general levels of comfort, confidence, and optimism, acceptance of status quo worldviews).

People back home don't care to understand what I do or why I moved. At the same time, even my most intimate friends here look at me as though I'm from a different planet when I talk about my life experiences.

I feel like I've achieved everything I wanted but I have no one to truly share it with.
Expand all images.
>> No. 28679 Anonymous
27th June 2019
Thursday 10:44 pm
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If you pay me I'll be your friend.

Is this what you were looking for?
>> No. 28680 Anonymous
27th June 2019
Thursday 11:00 pm
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Have you tried making friends outside your work/relationship bubble?

If you get dragged into that particular middle class cycle of doing dinner parties for people you work/worked with and clients and such all the time, instead of actual mates, you're obviously going to feel alienated. At the same time, it's understandable that you'll find it hard to fit in with the lads you knocked about with back home, if you even see them at all.

What you need is something to bond with people over where your job and networking and the whole charade of middle class keeping-up-appearances doesn't matter. Join a band or go to a DnD group. Do something people do for escapism, where you can relate without having to have come from a similar background.
>> No. 28681 Anonymous
28th June 2019
Friday 7:48 am
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I'm in a very similar situation OP. Working class, post-industrial town that just about hangs on, surrounded by it's post-industrial colleagues.

Like you, good grades, straight to a very middle class RG uni then into a graduate scheme that's very competitive renowned for being, well, very middle class.

I have a very similar experience so don't really know the answer, nor do I have any real advice, but I must say you're not alone and you will find people like us if you seek them out.

I do get a bit frustrated at the 'life isn't fair' aspect some times, friends who have parents buy a flat for them in central London to stop them paying rent, or go on ridiculous trips abroad, or when they go to hang out with their parents do very middle class things. Maybe it's even when I work really hard for something, their parents can just arrange for them to have something similar if they wanted it. Similarly, they have a confidence instilled (I think it's a private school thing) about them, their ability and what they deserve, regardless of actually how competent or academic they are. I also sometimes get envy about the chances they have had and squandered and wondered what that would have done for me (private tutors, worldly trips, private school, deposits paid for etc).

I am the subject too of a lot of jokes, but I don't mind, I'm not that sensitive, whenever the ribbing gets too hard I jokingly explain that for all their parent's hard work they got as far as this working class kid anyway.

One thing I will say is that when I do go home I find it utterly depressing. I used to love my home town, I never really thought much about outside of it and presumed most places were similar. This lifestyle has really opened my eyes and at the risk of sounding like a snob, I do hate going back and life on this side of the divide is better.

You're definitely in the better position than being at home. Congrats on your success.
>> No. 28682 Anonymous
28th June 2019
Friday 10:56 am
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>>28681
>I do get a bit frustrated at the 'life isn't fair' aspect some times, friends who have parents buy a flat for them in central London to stop them paying rent, or go on ridiculous trips abroad

Don't get me started. I have a close colleague right now who seems to have been hired where I work purely because his mum is part of the research staff, living in the center of the city, telling me about how he travelled South America when he was younger -- obviously funded by his previous earnings as a part-time chef.

I worked throughout my education in warehouses and the like. The first time I went abroad was for a master's thesis in my mid-twenties that I had to fight tooth and nail to get external funding for. Now that I've jumped back into academia, I still occasionally have to scrape by on my savings from the corporate work. In a few years I'll be more than comfortable, but it's hard not to notice how much more strategic I've had to be, how I've had to do quite a bit more with a lot less.

I don't want to get too Four Yorkshireman about it, and material resources are a huge factor, but it goes deeper than that too. It's just fucking emotionally taxing to have to call home and try to be supportive of old friends and family, to know I can't afford to slip up, and that I'm basically on my own when I take risks.

>I must say you're not alone and you will find people like us if you seek them out.

I would love to find them, I just have no idea where or how to start looking in my current situation. Occasionally I do come across someone who seems not to have the usual affectations, but they're very rare. Even just to talk to someone who "gets it" occasionally would help.

>You're definitely in the better position than being at home. Congrats on your success.

Thanks m8. I have to admit one difference between us is that I never liked my hometown. I just had to have some faith there was something better. I don't plan to go back.
>> No. 28683 Anonymous
29th June 2019
Saturday 7:23 am
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>>28682

Ah fuck mate, you've got me started now. I'm actually really interested int his topic and read a lot about these things.

One of the seemingly huge reasons behind middle class and upwards success is that they can afford to try stuff, just more importantly they can afford to fail.

I try a new job and it doens't work out and I slip up, I'm out of the game and back home in my irrelevant town trying to breach the outsides, it's probably to too different for you.

Somebody with access to resources doesn't have that problem, they can be given rent in desirable places, network their way back in. It's insane how much they have at their disposal.

>Thanks m8. I have to admit one difference between us is that I never liked my hometown. I just had to have some faith there was something better. I don't plan to go back.

Oh me too, but I always was made to feel like I was the weird one for aspiring for more, you know? It was me being too snobby or nerdy and believing there was better, being a teenager that reads the news outside fo generic tv/celeb crap, joining a political party, having interests that don't always involve sitting in my local on a Friday and going out with the lads, getting a kebab at 5am then crawling in hungover and doing it again the next week.

Knowing something better was out there kept me going but I couldn't really believe it until I saw it, and it's hard when everybody tells you 'there's nothing wrong with where you came from.'

Extremely cathartic to read of somebody with the exact same situation who gets it, thanks for posting and good thread.
>> No. 28693 Anonymous
1st July 2019
Monday 7:49 pm
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>>28678

I feel your pain OP. I hate my middle class coworkers, I hate their clean smiles, their impeccable mannerism, their cheerful outlook on life and future, their lack of anxiety due to the fact that they could "network" their way in another job in a week. I bet none of them had to fear for their life or had to be in a life or death situation. I've seen my first murder when I was 16, I had to literally claw my way out of a hole, I had to do the most revolting and illegal things to get out of my post industrial shithole town.

On the contrary, I cannot relate with the people from my original culture anymore. Their "crabs in the bucket" mindset explained brillantly by >>28683, their psychopatic attitude, their victim mentality that absolves them from all guilt, everything in their mindset has always disgusted me.

I did everything to run away from the shithole, but I will never be at home here. I guess you can take the chav out of the shithole, but not the contrary. Fuck my life. Sometimes I think that I should have never left my shithole and instead become a methead like almost all my schoolmates.
>> No. 28702 Anonymous
6th July 2019
Saturday 1:20 pm
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It's happened again, today. I recently missed out on a big opportunity for an internship as part of my studies. I'm very sore about it, but people around me can't understand why I'm so down when there's so many other opportunities out there. They don't seem to be aware that every venture is a massive risk for me, including the one that put me in a position to even consider the internship in the first place. Backsliding is a very real possibility at every fucking stage of my career.

I have my girlfriend in a chat window right now. I've been trying to tell her for the past half hour why I feel losses like this particularly keenly. I'm building on a base that's very precarious to begin with. She's missed my point and launched into a pep talk about how I just need to think strategically and make the best of it when "life gives you lemons", as though this isn't what I've been doing my entire life.

I just want to say to her, "your dad was a fucking orthopaedic surgeon". She could have had a child at 14, become a heroin addict until her mid-twenties, and still had a pretty reliable route to a solid professional career if she wanted it. In essence, beyond catastrophe or a tenacious will to fail, she couldn't have fucked up if she tried. Meanwhile I've been pulling off all the same shit she did, right down to the high grades and scholarships, while on a one-hit death run.

I do have some perspective about this... I know I don't have it the hardest by any means. That's partly why I chose this particular career path (medical, but also targeted at disadvantaged social groups).

I don't know where I can go with this, I just feel like I really haven't gotten through to her. She knows a little bit about my background, my hometown, my family problems. But it's like she never connects that not having anything to return to creates an added pressure on all of the opportunities presented outside of that, let alone the precious years of life it took to claw my way to something a bit nicer.
>> No. 28703 Anonymous
6th July 2019
Saturday 3:14 pm
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>>28702

I think you're probably right to some degree, but I think you might also be worrying needlessly because of the deep-seated memories of your background. It's hard to overcome that sense of insecurity, even if you're actually doing really well.

My stepdad grew up in a very poor Irish Catholic family, but he has done incredibly well for himself. He's a couple of years off retirement and is really freaking out about how he's going to manage financially, despite the fact that he is currently earning about £90k, he has a final-salary pension of about £28k and his mortgage is fully paid off. It's like the impulse to worry about money has been imprinted on his personality, even though he has more money than he knows what to do with.

Obviously I don't imagine you're doing that well, but I think your career trajectory is probably much more secure than you think. You might want to spend some time researching a realistic plan B, C and D if your current plan goes tits-up. You've probably got a lot more options than you realise, if for no other reason than the fact that you're smart and hardworking. If you don't get into the career you want, would it be so terrible to use your degree for something else? If you fuck up your degree, would it be so terrible to do an apprenticeship or work your way up from an entry-level position? School often gives us the subconscious impression that life is a series of pass/fail tests that each lead to the next, but reality is a lot messier than that - most people I know stumbled into their career after a lot of false starts and dead ends.
>> No. 28704 Anonymous
6th July 2019
Saturday 3:44 pm
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>>28703

That's the thing, I already do have a series of backup plans. I wouldn't have made it this far without being aware of what it takes to secure success, and that includes adapting to new circumstances. My current path is technically a plan B.

>You've probably got a lot more options than you realise, if for no other reason than the fact that you're smart and hardworking.

I've seen enough smart and hardworking people end up having shit lives to know that it's possible to make every correct move, and to still backslide to how things were.

I see what you're saying, I've climbed up a bit and put some space between me and the worst possible life I could lead. Some people can afford dozen of false starts. I could maybe take a couple of setbacks. For people like me, though, the gradient is a lot steeper, and you pay a lot more for every step down that you take -- and it sticks in my craw when others aren't able to recognise that, let alone when they start talking to me about making lemonade.
>> No. 28705 Anonymous
6th July 2019
Saturday 7:54 pm
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>>28702

Fucking hell lad you're being overdramatic.

You're not going to be discovered as the working class impostor you are and sent packing back to Scunthorpe to work at the chicken nugget factory for the rest of your life.

You missed an opportunity and there are more. It's not fucking Dark Souls.
>> No. 28706 Anonymous
6th July 2019
Saturday 8:14 pm
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You need to learn that it's possible to be happy and fulfilled when you have a meagre and humble life.

I would argue that you need to come to terms with that as a possibility- A great driving force behind your motivations, from these posts, is that you're obsessed with escaping whatever hellish working class background you came from. You think the only way to escape that is being well off, having a successful career, and climbing the ladder of social status. You think that if you're not successful, you're going to have a shit life, and that's that.

As you have correctly observed, it's easy for people to fall into dead end career paths and have life circumstances and sheer bad luck rob them of the chances to do better in life. It could very well happen to you, I'm not going to tell you you're safe. And you're just going to be consumed with self loathing over it unless you change your perspective. If anything these experiences with spoiled upper-middle class sorts should only show you exactly why you shouldn't aspire to become like them.

I'm not going to start philosophising and moralising at you but if you equate money and success with happiness you're always going to be unhappy.
>> No. 28707 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 8:38 am
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>>28702

As I don't know your girlfriend or your relationship it's hard to comment. You might need to open up a bit more about your circumstances, which could help her understand you better. However, she could just be unable to empathise with you, hence launching into the pep talk. It's your call as to whether she's being ignorant or not listening.

While it's hard for people to understand, I think anyone can empathise with you- they just need to listen.

I don't know what you want out of it either. I don't really like a fuss made about it, but it's nice that my girlfriend gets where I'm coming from and recognises her advantages.

>>28705

I don't think it's about that specific missed opportunity, but more the fact that his specific context isn't really 'understood'.

My first reaction to that post was "that sucks but that's just the way it is". From being in a similar position, I've just come to that conclusion that there isn't really a lot to be done about it.

I, personally, would like it to be more like dark souls.

>>28706

I get where you're coming from here, I think the issue with OP and OPesque type posts is that baggage following you through life. I think one of the hardest things is emotionally moving on and really understanding that you've done pretty well and left that past behind. Personally, I am fine- but being reminded of it quite often is pretty taxing.
>> No. 28708 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 11:04 am
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>>28702
>I just want to say to her, "your dad was a fucking orthopaedic surgeon". She could have had a child at 14, become a heroin addict until her mid-twenties, and still had a pretty reliable route to a solid professional career if she wanted it

This is one of the glorious things about social mobility. One day some council estate escapee will bemoan the fact your children have had life on Easy Street and can afford to fail all because their dad is high up in medical research and has made the right connections with academics, doctors, lawyers and engineers to give them a head start in their career.
>> No. 28709 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 12:13 pm
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>>28705

I think it is a natural product of the rhetoric about privilage that has been popular for the last 5 years or so.

Everything was decided for you before you start, everyone who succeeded when you didn't is just privileged so it is fine if you nether bother trying. It is a toxic philosophy that inspires apathy, and discourages social mobility and greatness.

>Your dad was a fucking orthopedic surgeon

That is a respectable middle class job, He's not John D. Rockefeller It isn't like he has all the buisness connections and can get front-row aisle seats for a first night at the OperaToscana with one day's notice, or arrange a private viewing of the tapestry collection at the Royal Saxon Gallery, and secure a corner table at Chez Dominique on a Thursday pull your head out of your arse.

Your girlfriend needs to find someone who doesn't secretly hate her for being born.
>> No. 28710 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 12:31 pm
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>>28707
>I don't think it's about that specific missed opportunity, but more the fact that his specific context isn't really 'understood'.

It's exactly this, thank you. I'm more than capable of handling my situation and making myself happy, as well as becoming successful (I'm aware that the two are not necessarily the same). What I'm looking for is to be understood.

The difficulty in opening up about this stuff is that it can make people around you uncomfortable. My first really rough experience with this was a girl I dated in my early twenties. It was a similar situation then, her parents were solicitors and she herself attended public school and studied at Cambridge. She would downplay and doubt my experiences, and I got the impression she didn't like being faced with the fact maybe she had advantages others did not.

My current girlfriend has shown more openness to listening, but hasn't really grasped what I'm talking about yet. Maybe I do just need to be more open with the specifics, but I still have this feeling things could go either way.

>>28708

And maybe they would be right to. I've given this some thought in the past. I wouldn't want my kids to have anything like the same experiences, but I don't know how much I can justify insulating them.

I think I would try and protect them from the mistakes I know will cause lasting or permanent damage, to be aware of their advantages, and to encourage them to get by on their own qualities. It doesn't break the cycle you're talking about or erase the headstart I'm giving them, but I don't think it's hypocritical, either. The answer is more likely to lie in collective and political action to try and make the world more fair and meritocratic.
>> No. 28711 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 12:40 pm
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>>28709
> discourages social mobility and greatness

Silly me, I always thought that social mobility was discouraged by lack of access to good education and nonexistant social services. When I was in school I spent more time trying to not being beaten by the packs of chavs rather than learning (while the teachers pretended not to see). However, it is due to my toxic philosophy that my school qualifications are worth jack shit on the job market, not to the fact that my school was shit, like all schools in the area. Thanks, mate.
>> No. 28712 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 12:49 pm
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>>28711
Bring back grammar schools I say.
>> No. 28713 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 1:06 pm
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>>28709

You've got it backwards. I don't resent my girlfriend or friends or colleagues for having advantages and connections. In an ideal world, more people would have that level of security. Nor do I think I'm somehow a better person for making it under my circumstances. On the contrary, I wouldn't wish the shitshow of my first twenty-odd years upon anyone.

My problem is with feeling very alone and conflicted as a result of my social mobility. When other people don't understand the context, they misinterpret my reactions to things. There's a frustrating tendency to pathologise rather than recognise different class experiences, too, which has already come through in this thread.

What's worse is that I get this creeping notion that, as an ambitious person, the further I ascend the more remote I'll be from anyone who really gives a shit, let alone has the capacity to understand why my background had such a big effect on me.

I'm also not suggesting that an orthopaedic surgeon is on par with a Rothschild, but believe me, the kind of money and comfort and freedom that a prestigious middle class career confers felt like a world away to me not that long ago. I think it's very easy to underestimate the number of material, social and psychological barriers there are to social mobility. Recognising them doesn't write off the efforts or success of people from wealthier backgrounds, but it does help to put working and underclass experience into some kind of context.
>> No. 28715 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 2:05 pm
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>>28711
>always thought that social mobility was discouraged by lack of access to good education and nonexistant social services.

You live in a generation where university is no long for the very privileged but nearly half of the population goes now, at some level society has to acknowledge some people are just too stupid and stubborn to do well.

If pretending you weren't given a fair chance helps you sleep at night you keep doing you.
>> No. 28716 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 2:14 pm
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>>28713

One of the weird things that happens with social mobility is the psychological barrier. The middle class are perfectly accepting but you end up having a chip on your shoulder that says you don't belong and you resent them for not suffering to get to where they are, and having nice things and safety without suffering for them
>> No. 28717 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 2:15 pm
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People don't understand what it means to have nothing at all, absolutely, utterly, sod all until they've experienced it, it's a unique genre of stress, despair and shame that I don't think many other circumstances can induce. That's why people were upset Cardi B used to drug men and rob them, they don't understand how desperate and selfish you can get. You can see the inability to empathise in this very thread. I don't really have an answer for your problem, OP, and maybe there isn't one, maybe this is just something you're going to have to live with. I think, as others have said, you could benefit from properly opening up about how you feel though, as a lot of this sounds like it's sat up in your head doing loop de loops forever. If you've got someone to talk to do it, otherwise you're just going to turn into a grumpy bastard and no one, regardless of social strata, can be expected to read minds.
>> No. 28718 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 2:29 pm
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>>28717
>People don't understand what it means to have nothing at all, absolutely, utterly, sod all until they've experienced it, it's a unique genre of stress, despair and shame that I don't think many other circumstances can induce


I've actually found having fuck all fine, it is the struggling to stay afloat that is the stress. Once you hit rock bottom, it really doesn't matter if the next bill is a hundred quid or a five grand, because you can't fucking pay it either way so the stress comes right off. I've had about 10k of tax bills wiped because there was really no point in chasing me and we all knew it so me and HMRC could just calmly talk it over.
>> No. 28719 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 2:48 pm
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>>28716

I think you didn't read or didn't understand my post. I am very explicit about this: I don't think anyone should have to suffer in that way. And my problem is certainly not that middle class people aren't welcoming enough. If anything, my current circle seem to have more time for leisure, and the sense of security just makes people much a lot nicer. I met my current girlfriend through a dating scene which simply didn't exist in my hometown.

I don't feel excluded, but I feel like I can't share major portions of my life experience, even with those who want to get close to me.

>>28717

Okay. If there's one thing I have taken from this thread it's that I should try to open up more about this.

I'm apprehensive about it, for the reasons you mention. Often people will just have no empathy for it. I described one bad experience I've already had a little earlier in the thread. Another common refrain I've just remembered: "well it couldn't have been that bad if you did so well for yourself". That one makes me have to bite my tongue.

I am fortunate enough to have an encouraging girlfriend right now, though. I'll try my best next time this comes up and report back.
>> No. 28720 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 3:26 pm
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>>28715
>You live in a generation where university is no long for the very privileged but nearly half of the population goes now, at some level society has to acknowledge some people are just too stupid and stubborn to do well.

It's a double-edged sword. Increased access to university has improved social mobility in some respects but made it far worse in others.

What matters most is what and where you study. The sharp-elbowed middle-class were fully switched on to this, but the plebs didn't think too much into it and thought a degree, any degree would be enough to set them up for life. I cannot remember meeting a single middle-class person whilst studying for my degree at the University of Hull, not one, because they'd all had the sense to go to Russell Group institutions.

What we've ended up with is a smokescreen where those at the top carry on as they are whilst giving the impression that anyone can join them. Some people have taken advantage of the system, mainly those going into STEM or medicine, but the majority have ended up with a completely devalued piece of paper. I know plenty of people who shouldn't have been anywhere near a university but now have a relatively worthless degree certificate as they felt pressured into going; all they really ended up with was a massive sense of entitlement, which eventually turned into a massive sense of resentment as they're now working in Costa Coffee or a call centre.

The ubiquity of degrees means that they're now a minimum requirement for a job which doesn't need them. It's created pointless barriers to entry and it's also stopped people from being able to progress from relatively entry-level positions where this was previously not the case.
>> No. 28721 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 3:26 pm
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>>28719
Being more open is definitely a good idea, another thing you should consider is that people often just say the first vaguely positive nonsense that comes to them, like it's a reflex. I think I've shared this before but I was once in the room when a guy told a girl who'd survived cancer as a teenager "at least you don't have to worry about periods"; unimaginably tone deaf. It's as though some people don't want to admit that sometimes things that have happened are just horrible shite and they need to reframe them in a positive light, at least when it's other people's horrible shite.

Best of luck, lad.
>> No. 28722 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 4:16 pm
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>>28720

Just chipping in as the OP, here. I didn't go to an RG university, and my success was still very much built on my university degree. My undergraduate studies were even in what most people would call a 'useless' humanities subject, but it exposed me to several things that would be essential in reaching where I am now; critical thinking and building logical arguments, evaluating sources of information, historical and political context, different perspectives about things as basic as human values. Looking back, it was probably where I got my first bit of culture shock. That should give some idea of how low I started on the totem pole, a third rate uni was intimidating and alien to me.

On a more practical level, it just gave me time to sit down and develop the patience to actually read and think about things. It wasn't perfect, but it repaired my view of education after a dysfunctional comprehensive school nearly broke it.

In my case it would eventually lead to me having the inspiration and resilience to actually get into a more technical career. But even when that's not the case, there's a hell of a lot to be said for education for education's sake. Give people the tools to at least understand their circumstances.
>> No. 28723 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 6:57 pm
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I've never been a fan of our obsession with social mobility. The flip side of "You deserve to get ahead if you do things right" appears to be "You deserve what you get if you do things wrong". A society obsessively focused on making sure nobody can fall to the level where they'd be justified in resentment would seem like a safer first-floor target, then maybe it would seem less unethical to write certain people off. Especially because the end result of the competition, if everyone's trying to do things right, is to simply make it harder and harder to get it right. It might not be a pure zero sum in the sense that we'll get better behaved service staff but it's almost certainly zero sum in terms of human happiness.

Things get even worse when you apply just world fallacy, pretending we already do live in a meritocratic world that accurately assesses the value and effort people have put in, reading off the results as self-justifying the status quo. It's not for nothing that the guy who coined the term Meritocracy considered it to be a bad thing because it creates a class of Meritocrats with no limit to their sense of entitlement. (After all, they are the people with merit. Implicitly, there also exists a class of people without merit.)
>> No. 28724 Anonymous
7th July 2019
Sunday 7:15 pm
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>>28720
Unfortunate, I was the first Gen in my lineage to go to Uni, and I did law based purely on a hedging of bets, to hear my family talk about it you would think it meant I was now destined to be prime minister. Didn't stop them sabotaging me post degree by expecting me to 'get a proper job' after uni rather than wasting more time studying by going on to Bar school mind.

>>28722
>My undergraduate studies were even in what most people would call a 'useless' humanities subject

There are things the working class call useless humanities subjects that the middle class consider perfectly respectable, usually the working class do it from a lack of imagination about what people outside their sphere actually do, for example there is a lot of history in the world and someone needs to be a specialist or a curator or researcher of all of it, and enough people did those degrees in the civil service they respect the skills learned in them anway.
>> No. 28725 Anonymous
8th July 2019
Monday 12:34 am
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>>28724

That's also because if you are working class, they are useless. It's only the various connections and invisible advantages that makes a fine art degree useful to a middle class person.

When you come from that background, a degree in the humanities is a mark of culture. On a lad from a council estate, it just makes you look like you didn't want to study "a real subject", and I feel like the prejudice operates from both sides.
>> No. 28727 Anonymous
8th July 2019
Monday 2:26 am
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>>28725
>That's also because if you are working class, they are useless. It's only the various connections and invisible advantages that makes a fine art degree useful to a middle class person.

Who said anything about a fine art degree being worth anything?

You know that middle class people find jobs by looking for ads and applying like everyone else right? It doesn't just turn to nepotism once you start earning over 30k.

honestly this is more about your hang ups about being a class traitor than the middle class themselves.
>> No. 28728 Anonymous
8th July 2019
Monday 2:54 am
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>>28727

If you're a posh fine arts graduate, the odds are fairly good that daddy plays golf with a gallery owner who would be more than happy to give you an internship; the cost of renting a flat for you in London and paying your bills are a non-issue. Same for the media, same for politics. It's not impossible to get into those fields if you're from an ordinary background, but it's immensely more difficult without the right connections and a substantial financial cushion.

The definition of "middle class" has expanded to the point of meaninglessness, but there's a definite threshold in the upper-middle-class where people don't tend to apply for jobs. I'm not particularly posh, but I haven't applied for a job since the mid 90s and haven't had a formal interview for many years. Most of the jobs I have had were created solely for my benefit - they didn't have a vacancy that needed filling, but they wanted me on their team and created a vacancy to suit. The vast majority of jobs in highly competitive fields are never advertised at all.
>> No. 28730 Anonymous
8th July 2019
Monday 7:10 am
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>>28728
>the odds are fairly good that daddy plays golf with a gallery owner who would be more than happy to give you an internship; the cost of renting a flat for you in London and paying your bills are a non-issue.

Thanks to sites like MyInternSwap you don't even need to know them beforehand. Pay the annual subscription fee and then you can offer a week's internship at the BBC in exchange for someone else giving little Tristan, at the £6k per term City of London School for Boys, an internship in whichever field he decides to venture into. It's a fair swap.
>> No. 28732 Anonymous
9th July 2019
Tuesday 9:23 pm
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Tried opening up. Didn't go well. In fact, her responses echoed the unsympathetic ones in this thread.

Fuck.
>> No. 28733 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 11:23 am
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>>28732

Did you open up by telling her how easy it is for her because her dad was a fucking orthopaedic surgeon, or did you save that for the conclusion?


>> No. 28734 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 11:46 am
28734 Not OP.
>>28733
I know it makes you uncomfortable to think about how hard some people's lives can be, but that doesn't make it any less real.
>> No. 28737 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 1:03 pm
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>>28734

Lad, I'm the guy who spoke about having my 10k debt to the tax man wiped earlier. Just because something does actually happen doesn't make you any less of a cry baby for treating it like it is an impossible to overcome the odds and it is everyone elses fault and it isn't your job to help yourself, and a terrible petty person for sneering at everyone who's life is less shit.
>> No. 28738 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 5:48 pm
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>>28737

Something about this topic really brings out people's insecurities. You're a good example of why it's so difficult to talk about life experiences like this.

The entire point of the thread is that I already have helped myself. I am at a point that I honestly thought I wouldn't be able to reach, I've exceeded my own expectations and I'm very proud of what I've achieved. My quality of life is very good now.

My problem isn't with overcoming the odds -- because I've already done that. My problem is that I now can't relate to anyone around me because, almost by definition, beating the odds will put you in a position where these new circumstances are for the 'norm' for everyone else.

And as I said repeatedly, I'm not sure how I could be any more clear about this: I do not resent my girlfriend or middle class people or anyone who leads a nice life. I am leading a nice life myself. If I'm sneering, I don't mean to. But I am frustrated, because of how difficult it is to get people who haven't been through it to understand what it's like, to go through all of life's usual challenges with even fewer protections. I don't know how to get that across to others without making them defensive, or making them feel like I'm guilt-tripping them. I don't want a pity party, I just want to be understood by my partner.
>> No. 28739 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 6:22 pm
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>>28734
Lots of people lead hard lives, but the OP certainly isn't one of them.
>> No. 28740 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 9:21 pm
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>>28737

I don't see why you have to keep complaining about how hard it was for you to pay taxes, thousands of people pay taxes every month and have no problem doing it.
>> No. 28741 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 9:44 pm
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>>28738

While people like you (and me) who have come from nothing have undeniably had to work harder to get to where we are, and undeniably people born into higher status will never truly understand what it was like to be us growing up, it's easy to ignore or forget that the exact same can be said to us about them. For one, suffering and toil is relative - the people you're talking about ate still people and still likely worked their arses off at school, uni, whathaveyou. Yes, you worked harder to even be there, but they still worked too.

And telling anyone they got anything handed to them will never work. They worked hard, and either have no idea they're privileged or definitely do but don't want to be reminded of it. And middle class people can have pretty fucking terrible lives too, despite the money and successful parents, indeed, that's often the problem. Imagine being born of two very accomplished surgeons, who throw huge amounts of money at you to 'pursue your interests' in education. I can't even imagine that sort of pressure. For my family, even finishing sixth form was a huge accomplishment for me. Imagine just never feeling like you measure up to the two giants who raised you. That's surely as difficult as anything I've had to face in poverty.

I guess what I'm trying to say is people are people, and especially at your age, they simply lack the perspective to understand why you feel alienated. But at the same time, they'll easily pick up that you regard yourself and them as a different species. At uni I learned how to fit in with people from all walks of life and that was far more valuable than my degree. My advice to you would be to get out of your head a bit and just try and connect with them as people, rather than as symbols of a bitter class war.
>> No. 28743 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 10:27 pm
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>>28741

I kind of get the impression OP is confusing middle class people with the landed gentry.

A mate of mine was as middle class as they come. His mum was some high up NHS exec, his father in law was a city councilor. Got bullied horribly throughout high school. Pursued a career in the arts that went nowhere and lived at home most of his life. Topped himself at 29. He had all the contacts you could ask for, but nobody ever showed or told him how.

Likewise, I come from similar cloth to OP. The difference between him and me is that he clearly had access to the resources that allowed him to learn how he could carve his path to success. I wasted so many years because even though I was looking for the way to improve my life, I didn't even know where to begin looking. He wants to believe that his success is entirely self earned, just like those middle class people he complains about do; but he neglects the fact that a good deal of it was sheer fate and fortune in the first place. Privilege cuts both ways, just be thankful for what you have. I say this as a bitter red blooded socialist, by the way.

Instead of looking for sympathy from people, OP should instead take it as a source of pride that he came so far through such considerable adversity compared to them. I often feel the same way at work- I work with loads of uni graduates who came straight in with no other experience to speak of. They complain about trivial things and show such an utter lack of perspective sometimes. Whereas me, I've done everything from warehouse work to tech support on my way here. I simply know so much more about LIFE than they do, and without being big headed, I think that makes me much more well rounded in skills and knowledge than them.
>> No. 28745 Anonymous
10th July 2019
Wednesday 10:48 pm
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>>28740

I'm not complaining at all, I'm using it solely in retort to someone accusing me of not understanding because their pain and sadness is greater than mine. I really don't care how you feel about it or 'get' it because it doesn't matter. What I care about is the wallowing OP et al. about how people can't get them, when there is really no need to.

>>28738

People who actually don't resent people don't feel like saying "your dad was a fucking orthopedic surgeon". You clearly do resent her, it is kind of like the way no one who isn't a racist saw the harm in Danny Bakers royal baby tweet your thought pattern betrays you in that that even occurs to you to matter. You have arrested development, either realize it doesn't matter and move past it and adapt to your new culture, or stop dating uptown girls and go back to your industrial town and have a honest sneer.
>> No. 28748 Anonymous
11th July 2019
Thursday 5:45 am
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>>28745
>You have arrested development, either realize it doesn't matter and move past it and adapt to your new culture, or stop dating uptown girls and go back to your industrial town and have a honest sneer.

This is a false dichotomy. It's going to matter because it's a part of me -- you're telling me that my choices are either to never bring it up or go back to my hole and 'sneer' about it. Is it not possible to talk about the first twenty-odd years of my life without making others uncomfortable?

>People who actually don't resent people don't feel like saying "your dad was a fucking orthopedic surgeon".

This is /emo/ and I was venting. I'd never actually say this to her, because I know it would come across that way. What I'm expressing here is that I want her to acknowledge that her life experiences aren't like mine, that there is a world of shit that is invisible to her because she had protections; not that she should feel bad for having a bit of cash and a stable upbringing, and definitely not that it somehow lessens her achievements. Just getting her to acknowledge other life experiences exist would be a start.

>>28741
>>28743

Again, I know having a dad with a decently prestigious professional job doesn't make you 'landed gentry' or a member of the elite. It doesn't fully protect your kid from bullying, or a relative getting cancer, or you getting sick, or any of life's other general hardships. It's just that all of those things can and do happen to people who have fuck all, too -- and it's more likely to bring about additional difficulties for that reason.

And again, to repeat myself, I don't want a pity party about how hard I've had it up until now. I just don't like feeling alienated and alone as a result of my success.
>> No. 28750 Anonymous
11th July 2019
Thursday 9:34 am
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>>28748
You seem to really, really want to talk to people about your formative years. That's not very middle class. It's done, survived it. Got buggered senseless at Gordonstoun or one of the minors, played a bit of rugby. Here we are.
It's possible the reason that people seem uncomfortable talking about it is that they'd be slightly uncomfortable with anyone, and your non-pattern-fitting tale is only adding 10% or so.
>> No. 28751 Anonymous
11th July 2019
Thursday 11:06 am
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>>28748
>This is /emo/ and I was venting. I'd never actually say this to her, because I know it would come across that way.

But that's exactly the point it occurred to you. If someone pisses me off I don't immediately think "bloody laplander/coon/chink/white people" because I don't consider race a defining factor, but to you, the job of the person who spunked inside the person who crapped you out is a defining factor. Whether you suppress it or not, you have the thought pattern of a class snob.

>This is a false dichotomy

Well lets look at your options
1. get someone to understand the pain and sadness they have no frame of reference of.
2. stop treating it as something you need.
3. find someone who satisfies that need.

You've tried nothing but 1, and it hasn't worked, your options are to accept that (2) or find someone who treats you how you want to be treated (3) or to keep doing 1 even though it hasn't done anything so far, and will probably damage the relationship.

>>28750
>You seem to really, really want to talk to people about your formative years.

Yes it is a morbid obsession, it's bloody arrested development, there are people who watched their friends blown apart in wars, or who don't have all their limbs who don't rabbit on as much about how hard it was for them, and that no one understands them.
>> No. 28752 Anonymous
11th July 2019
Thursday 11:45 am
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>>28748 I just don't like feeling alienated and alone as a result of my success.

Ah, hang on. You're feeling all middle class, alienated and alone?

Not sure what you were expecting, but reforming the entire middle class into an over-sharing episode of Are Jezza might take a while. No fucker talks to anyone except when so hogwhimperingly drunk that it'll be forgotten in the morning.
>> No. 28758 Anonymous
18th July 2019
Thursday 2:09 pm
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I don't quite get the point. Do you actually want to have and be all those things you described?
A fair share of them don't even sound good.
I'd prolly be more sympathetic to you than to your friends. I suspect that has a lot to do with that I'm a near-the-bottom scum lowlife or whatever.

Also have you ever read London's Martin Eden?

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