I've just got off the phone to my partner (we're both away dealing with our own things at the moment) and it wasn't the most uplifting chat we have ever had.
It revolved around my actions, and how I have been inconsiderate on a few occasions and how this has made her feel, especially what had happened this last weekend. Whilst I certainly agree with some of it and disagree with other points she made, I said I would reflect on it and think about what she was saying (truth be told, I'm not sure what to reflect on, sometimes I am genuinally cluelessly inconsiderate, I have never intentionally done something to hurt her).
The conversation ended with an ultimatum. We have discussed marriage before (her more so eagerly than me) and whilst she loves me (and she does, a great deal), she has given me until the end of May to propose or that would be it.
Normally, I would consider an ultimatum of any sort a negative suggestion, but maybe she has a point? I love her dearly and the thought of her not being in my life and all of the upheaval it brings fills me with anxiety and sadness, but maybe I don't want marriage and it is unfair for her to continue under the assumption it would happen (she is older than me as well so biological clocks and all that are a cause of concern for her).
I just need some advice to try and get my head together, or to try and get an idea of what to think about and how to approach this. I'm concerned that all I am thinking about are the ways a break up would affect me (financially etc) so perhaps I am the inconsiderate one.
Anyone willing to have a chat and guide me a bit would be greatly appreciated.
Might try and get both me and my dad drunk this Friday to have a chat about it, it's the only way we can have heart to hearts.
Anybody that considers marriage to be some kind of magical relationship salve is the true numpty. Furthermore, marriage (or lack thereof) doesn't make any of the other typical relationship milestones any less possible or significant in the cold light of day. I imagine your old man will tell you much the same.
Crucially, relationships are not zero-sum nor should you be held hostage by the notion of sunk costs. You are an independent and strong-willed individual with characteristics redeeming enough to bag you a lass you fell head over heels with in the first place. This is not a flash in the pan - it can happen again.
I've been in a similar situation myself, and I have to consider the key questions here to be how long you've been together, and how long you've been living together.
You mention worry over the practical side of breaking up and that's perfectly normal and doesn't make you inconsiderate in the least. I've definitely stayed in broken, toxic relationships for far too long because I'd allowed myself to become accustomed to and almost reliant upon things like the other party having their name on all the rent contract because no one wants to rent to the self-employed.
Anyway, there's a certain school of thought that marriage is a product of the function of time in a relationship. In other words if you've been living together for a few years and you still haven't proposed then you're "taking the piss" and need to "either shit or get off the pot". Perhaps if you've been living together for a while she wants to know you're serious, especially if you're thinking of starting a family together.
>Am I the only one who considers the fact that a proposal ultimatum, essentially delivered at gunpoint or else that's it, is just a blatantly spoiled, childish and selfish kind of emotional blackmail?
Probably not, but you're wrong. Having children with a boyfriend is irresponsible. As the OP said her biological clock is ticking and she wants to move on with her life. Either he's man enough to say "I'm with you until our kids are 18" or he isn't.
>Marriage is increasingly irrelevant in modern life. Ask yourself why it's so important to her, and then ask yourself if she's going to do this about something that amounts to, essentially, a big narcissistic party and a ring, how the fuck do you think she's going to act over the question of having kids when her biological clock starts ticking down?
I think the kids thing is related to the marriage thing, obviously. Marriage is not irrelevant, it's the difference between "lol we fuck buddies bye" and "shit I'm here for the kids."
>Any partner who puts their supposed loved one in a situation of ultimatum like this is a dickhead, honestly. Sorry, but that's all I can think about this. Strong words really need to be had, quite separately from the issue of whether you actually want to marry her or not.
I think she was remarkably mature not to just babytrap him and force a marriage. She asked if he's in it for the long haul. Maybe she did it in a way you dislike, that's sad for you. I don't know enough about the relationship to side with the OP or her, but the facts as presented point towards a woman who is asking a valid question before the next step, which has to be soon. Sage for the inevitable misogynist accusations but a) only child children are fucked and b) a woman needs to start having children by her mid 20s to have a more than 1 child environment in which the biological risk to the children is low enough to be acceptable.
Are you fucking with me or are you a time traveller from 1965?
OP- Call her bluff.
She wants it more than you do, obviously, that's why she's had to resort to ultimatum to get what she wants. What she's misjudged is that you hold all the cards. If she does break up with you over this, she has to start from square one, and she's a step closer to being a cat-lady spinster with every passing day.
Once you've got into a discussion between adults, instead of attempted manipulation between a child and a parent figure, you can actually decide if marriage is the right thing for you.
The traditional connotation with 1965 is woman control. So you say I'm a woman controller.
But then you post this.
>What she's misjudged is that you hold all the cards. If she does break up with you over this, she has to start from square one, and she's a step closer to being a cat-lady spinster with every passing day.
Everything you said suggests subordination to a woman. You believe a woman has the right to demand of you to marry, to demand of you when to reproduce. Your standard for a "mature" woman is one who does not baby trap someone.
You do not see yourself as a man. A man may not always control a woman, but he does exercise autonomy over his own life. Something you appear to lack.
>>29522 > I'm sure that seems like more than enough time to make a decision, but like you said, I have fallen into a comfortable rut.
If that's the case then you have to be honest with yourself. Are you happy with / do you love this lass, or are you still with her because it's easier than splitting up?
While it might be a shitty thing to admit, even to yourself (trust me, I'd know), it's a fine sight better than getting married for the wrong reasons.
If there's anything worse than waking up and realising you've ended up with a bad hand, it's doubling down on the fucker.
You haven't mentioned your feelings about her and it does sound like she's phlegmatic (I wouldn't demand someone propose by a date if it were so 'on the rocks'). My gut says it's over, but how do you feel about her, her criticisms, and the relationship?
If you don't understand what you're doing wrong or if you're 'cluelessly inconsiderate' then something is up, even if it's you not wanting to accept the situation. Us men tend to bury our heads in the sand and endure endless nagging out of a sense of duty, whereas girls will nag endlessly when insecure. From her side, she's forcing you to make the choice so that she'll be safe in the future. She probably feels that you've been given so many chances and you haven't sorted the problem.
I appreciate that maybe the ultimatum has weight and is not bad by default, but it wouldn't be nice to say 'we got married because I was forced into it'. It might pay to think about 20 years time, was this the kick up the arse that you needed?
If she wanted to get married, she had a chance on Saturday to propose.
Doesn't sound good being given an ultimatum. What's the rush? I know people that have been together for quite some time before getting married. Maybe it's a commitment issue, you're just not showing enough and this is her solution.
>You haven't mentioned your feelings about her and it does sound like she's phlegmatic (I wouldn't demand someone propose by a date if it were so 'on the rocks'). My gut says it's over, but how do you feel about her, her criticisms, and the relationship?
My gut says the same thing. I'm happy for the most part, there are plenty of things that annoy me but that's just relationships in general, they aren't perfect.
Some of her criticisms are valid such as me not comprimising as much as I could. This last weekend I drove up to my parents, (my annual leave had just started and I have been struggling with my mental health a bit these past few weeks so really needed a breather and I thought a change of environment would help), she is also struggling a lot and needs to go into hospital for a minor procuedure soon so is stressing about this. She was going to do the same thing and visit her parents but couldn't go to Monday. Originally I was going to drop her first and then continue (although I wasn't super keen as that makes it a 6 hour or so trip for me) but instead I went and left her to get the train as I was really struggling and just needed to get out. That was bad and inconsiderate, I realise that now, but my head was clouded at the time.
Other occasions I don't quite agree. A while ago we were with my family and my sister forgot what she did as a job and mis-described it. My partner corrected her and my sister didn't seem bothered. Later on when we were out for a walk, she went off on one for me not having her back. This I really don't get, what was I meant to do? I didn't see it as a big deal. If her sister couldn't remember what I did I wouldn't give two shits.
So it's a mixed bag but she often brings things like this up as if they are on equal footing.
>It might pay to think about 20 years time, was this the kick up the arse that you needed?
This is this the thing, on a selfish note, I really don't know what to do. I do feel old to be starting over again from square one at 29 though. I'd feel even worse for doing that to her, but I guess guilt shouldn't be a main motivator for doing things?
The crucial point that needs to be consideration by you both is why exactly it's so vital to be engaged by the end of next month, so important in fact that she's threatening to break up with you if she doesn't get it? If she really loves you and you love her, and neither of you was intending to leave the other one as things stood, why the rush?
I think this is almost definitely stemming from a place of insecurity, and that's what needs addressing. She's hoping that the ring on your finger will mark you as hers for ever and all the other women will know to keep their hands off, but real life tells us it's no guarantee of that whatsoever.
Being married is very unlikely to change the day to day circumstances of your relationship, so it's important you both dig to the bottom of what's brought it to this ultimatum.
>Being married is very unlikely to change the day to day circumstances of your relationship, so it's important you both dig to the bottom of what's brought it to this ultimatum.
From what she has said she wants to move on with her life and feel like the relationship is going somewhere. But, I'm not going anywhere (I know that doesn't guarantee anything from her perspective but I'm not) and I don't see an engagement as suddenly adding another level.
I was thinking about progression as well, but in a different way, mainly home ownership. The reason being is that I see getting on the property ladder as much more difficult than marriage, and these days, a significant indicator of stability. I've put a lot of effort into saving for a deposit whilst she studies, I'm on about £20,000 so far (who knew those old video games could be worth so much eh?)
You should definitely bring that up with her. In many ways a mortgage (assuming both your names are on the papers) is a much more binding arrangement than marriage anyway, these days.
Thankfully I haven't been through either, but from the sounds of what friends have told me, extricating yourself from a joint mortgage makes divorce look trivial.
I was going to say in my post that the ultimatum should be smaller. You should really be able to identify more regular things that need amending first.
I used to get so overwhelmed I used to ignore my partner without warning; we reached a point where I accepted that was shit behaviour and that I'd at least communicate if I needed distance. The premise really was- if I can't/don't do that then we don't get married or go any further. Similarly, it sounds like OPs roadmap would be; fix dynamic, then house, then (possible) marriage.
I don't think it was really that bad or inconsiderate. The sister thing; she might be a dick, or this might be an attempt for some attention and backup. It could be that she feels you don't have her back anywhere, and this small issue is a way of letting it out.
You are coming across as quite diplomatic about it, you don't have to excuse her. Starting over at 29 might not be wonderful but it's better than divorcing, I certainly would rather take my time and get it right (I turned 30 this year and the housing ladder and pension contributions are all that I think about).
I understand you're worried about her and feeling bad for doing that to her- she's 50% responsible for this relationship and 100% for herself. She's made decisions to let it get to this point. If she hasn't been clear about her feelings and what she's done then she's expecting you to be a mindreader.
I've been with girls before where I've made it clear that I am not looking for anything serous or long-term. Some of them chose to ignore that and act extra nice to me, in the hope that I'd change heart. Obviously, I didn't and I probably go down in history books as 'that bastard'. Now, at the time I felt bad, but I now I feel "you willingly drove the wrong way down a one way street, what did you expect?". Not saying your guilt-free, but just that she's let it get this far.
I think you're right that I start approaching this as a 50/50 thing in conversations. I wouldn't say she is trying to put herself across as perfect but there are probably a few things I have overlooked or been too polite to bring up when she lists my flaws, I've definitely been too meek in that regard.
I had a long soak earlier and have thought about having a big chat with her when I get back about both our concerns and try to get something on the table other than the topic of marriage. I wan't it to be polite, calm and productive with the aim of both of us having some grievances and some idea of where to go next. In the ideal world, this could make everything hunky dory, but obviously that won't be the case. I'm hoping that it at least allows us to approach the current situation from a different angle, or worst case, if there is a break up, it makes a more mutual as opposed to her going ballistic and spreading lies, breaking stuff etc.
The one thing that I didn't mention what did stick with me, was from our conversation a couple nights ago. She said something along the lines of "I wan't to marry you, but if not, I'll have to marry someone else, I AM getting married, that is happening". That hurt me more than I let on. It's as if the idea of marriage and having a wedding is a bigger deal than the person. I would like kids, but if for example, she couldn't have them, I wouldn't just leave her.
I didn't want to read too much into it and come off as one of them salmon poachers or a cynical chronic wanker; but I did have my suspicions that would be the kind of angle she was coming from.
In all my dealings with women, as wonderful and intellectual and sophisticated as plenty of them are, I've always noticed that there are some things they'll just get in their head, and that's just that. She wants a wedding, of course she does, because she wants her dream day. She wants all the attention on her. She wants to have a better one than all the other girls. She wants to show you off, she wants to be spoiled, and she will feel like a failure if she doesn't.
Similar to how a certain type of Man will feel emasculated and inadequate when he only drives a Clio and all the lads are rolling in Audis, she absolutely must have that wedding, because she genuinely feels like she's worth less otherwise. It's the sort of thing fisherfolk will tell you comes out of internalised misogyny or some other bollocks, but really it's just the end-game of the Self imposed female social framework. Better hair, better nails, better shoes, but most importantly a bigger, more extravagant, more perfect wedding.
I don't want to assume the character of your partner but this kind of thing suggests she definitely wouldn't have been my type in the first place; so please take my opinion with a grain of salt, since I may be biased. But it sounds to me like you're going to have a hard time if you approach this by trying to make her "see sense" or talk her round. It'll be difficult to get her to be honest with herself, let alone you, about why the whole deal is so important. The other thing that statement is that, as harsh as it sounds, she really does not care how you feel about it. It's such a deep need she's completely willing to just force it upon you.
When you have this big talk, it's important you stand your ground. If you've been "meek" before in your relationship, now is the time to be firm, pick your line in the sand and don't offer an inch past it. You need it to be clear that you're willing to work together on it, but that you won't be pushed into anything. That way you can proceed as adults.
>She wants a wedding, of course she does, because she wants her dream day. She wants all the attention on her. She wants to have a better one than all the other girls. She wants to show you off, she wants to be spoiled, and she will feel like a failure if she doesn't.
It's also possible that she wants a wedding for the security of a guaranteed future. It's a rather passé idea I know but some people do still think like that. While I would agree that she's rather mean if your hypothesises motivations are true there are other motivations possible in this scenario.
>>29539 >>29540 > "I wan't to marry you, but if not, I'll have to marry someone else, I AM getting married, that is happening"
This is almost word for word what happened to me a while back. The lass in question got it into her head that she was going to get married by some arbitrary birthday which was about two years away and as she knew I wasn't keen on remarrying her basic rationale was that she'd better get out there and start meeting someone who would marry her.
Even though our relationship carried on for a bit in an on again/off again kind/what the fuck is going on now kind of way she would always make snide comments bringing up the fact that I wasn't "going to change" and decide to marry her and she was in effect "wasting her time".
Needless to say in the end I just let her get on her way. It wasn't healthy for either of us.
