This one's weird, but here goes. One of my oldest friends and his wife have just let it slip that they want to remain childless. They're both around 40, i.e. he's a few weeks shy of 42 and she's 39, so they're now kind of starting to move past that certain point where you should make up your mind once and for all, and if they're fine with it then that's ok, but it still sort of makes me sad for them in a way I can't explain or put my finger on. It kind of seems like they've missed the final step of a quite harmonic 20-year relationship that they've had up to this point since they first met. They've taken all the other milestones in stride, from moving in together to having decent careers and getting married and buying a house, and I was happy for them, maybe because what they had seemed worth aspriring to. So in a way I'm now sad for my friend that he doesn't get to be a dad, because he really would have made a great dad, and they'd have everything else in place to raise a family.
I'm childless myself, and that's ok, unless by some weird coincidence I'll still meet somebody to settle down with. So I'm not one of those people who look down on childless couples with that dishonest mixture of smugness and envy. But I guess for the past few years I've thought that if not me, then at least he and his wife would end up passing the torch.
I really don't get the big deal honestly. Why is this matter one of those things that' automatically everyone else's business?
I've never wanted kids, I have a partner who doesn't want kids and it's always been something I've established early on with any partner. It's not any high-minded Malthusian ambition or pretentious idea about maximising my "personal potential" or any shit like that; it's purely because I want to still be able to enjoy my life on my own terms, and children are incompatible with that. Having children requires sacrifices that I don't want to make. I am a shameless hedonist and intend to continue to be until the day I die.
That's my choice and I really don't see why it should be any other cunt's problem. I don't see why other people making decisions that make them happy, causes other people discontent. Not to say you're being a cunt or anything, but why does it matter to you? Shouldn't you just be happy for your friends to live the kind of life that makes them happy?
I think that question lies at the bottom of it; why do we collectively assume that someone having or not having kids is our business. We even do it with total strangers and work colleagues we are at best forced acquaintances with. It's like someone's letting the side down if they don't pop a couple out. Are we really that beholden to primitive animal instincts, that we still have this primordial social response for people who don't do their duty and breed? I think we might be.
You are childless, but not necessarily by choice, by the sounds. Maybe you are projecting a bit of your own desires onto them. Even if you're not going to be a dad anytime soon, you perhaps had some subconscious desire to be a "cool uncle" type to their kids, and you feel a bit let down.
Either way just focus on the fact tthey're doing what makes them happy, and try to be happy for them, I reckon. At least the three of you will still be able to go out for the pub quiz while the rest of your mates struggle to find a childminder.
I think the question is -- why do you feel it's necessary for them to 'pass the torch'? What is the 'torch' in question?
It's one of those weird things where religion still has a strong hold on our supposedly secular modern society. This idea that having kids is, even if not explicitly, virtuous, and you're wrong'uns for not wanting or having them.
I have a unique perspective on this; I was born of donor sperm because my parents wanted kids so much, but couldn't conceive. It's not something I've ever spoken in detail with them about, but it's something I've ruminated on myself a lot.
OP here. It's not like I never get any judgy comments. If you think being a couple without kids at 40 invites uncalled for remarks, try being single at that kind of age. You'll hear everything from "Aren't you ever desperately lonely?" to "It can't be that there's really nobody out there for you to settle down with" or "Aren't you still too young to be a confirmed bachelor", or even "You'll miss the boat for good if you don't start looking". I would like to point out that I have had my share of relationships in the past, it just so happens that many people who've only met me in the last few years have never seen me with a partner or even a date. It could even be that some of them have privately wondered about my sexuality, for all I know. But I don't care.
What I'm saying is, you're not free from other people's expectations and judgements just because you're not in a childless relationship when you're a certain age.
And yet, even if that's in all likelihood still some distance off for me, I'd be sad if I actually don't leave any offspring behind at all, ever. Somebody to carry on my bloodline. So even if I currently don't conform to traditional ideas about where you should be at what point in your life, doesn't mean that I don't have traditional ideas about my own life. And that I don't ever want to find somebody to start a family with.
When I say I'm sad for my friend, it's not because I like to put my nose in other people's affairs, which isn't what I do, if you knew me personally. Just that here's one of my best friends who is one of the greatest and most caring people I've ever met and who deserves everything life has to offer, and I somehow feel that not being able to be a dad takes away from that. And I know that that probably means that I am at least in some remote way judging him by society's norms. Or ideas about what finding happiness should mean. But as I said, it's a weird one.
>why do we collectively assume that someone having or not having kids is our business
A lot of people have put their own ambitions on hold and missed out on a lot of opportunities in order to have children. Women often never really recover from this and struggle to develop meaningful lives of their own, separate from the role of being a mum. A lot of people are deeply ambivalent about their decision to have children, but they aren't allowed to even think about the possibility that they regret it, let alone discuss it.
Not having children is your own choice, but some people will perceive it as a personal attack on their choices. Having children invariably means sacrificing a lot of other things in your life; being reminded that having children is optional can be incredibly painful for a lot of people. They have to believe that childless people are selfish or miserable or that they've missed out on the most important thing in life, because it's the only thing protecting them from the thought that maybe they've made a terrible mistake and ruined the prime years of their life.
For the avoidance of doubt, I don't mean any of this in a judgemental way. Society puts a lot of pressure on people to have children, even if only through the assumption that it's the default. Having children is one of the most momentous and life-changing decisions imaginable, but the absolute taboo on saying "I regret having children" means that we can't really discuss that choice in an open and honest way. A lot of people are carrying around an immense burden of shame, guilt and regret that they can't share with anyone; I can't imagine how difficult that must be.
Childless people put up with a lot of annoying bullshit, but I have nothing but compassion for the people doling out that bullshit.
Nah I get it, everyone has that couple that has just kind of made it perfectly and you all aspire to have a relationship like. But then they break up and that pillar of stability no longer exists. Or in your case it's much milder that they just don't cross that milestone you imagined.
It's disconcerting when people and things don't behave the way you imagine. But that's life innit.
>>32109 Yes, you're a minority and yes you live in a culture that always is and will be child focused. OP was talking about his experience.
Said by the 60 year old receptionist at my old job, whose love of pastries was only eclipsed by her widening arse and her penchant for wearing polyester blouses in mid-summer.
>everyone has that couple that has just kind of made it perfectly and you all aspire to have a relationship like.
Maybe that's exactly part of it. You can't help looking for things to aspire to in the world around you, I've found all my life. Whether it's your dad's career or your older brother's way with lasses, or even somebody at your work or a very good friend. In a strange way, maybe I've wanted to see my friend and his wife as proof that happy relationships where people build a future together still exist at our age. And now their reality that they've chosen freely for themselves falls short of my idealised ideas about the significance of their relationship. When their relationship should really only have significance for them, not to a bystander like me, however close.
>And I know that that probably means that I am at least in some remote way judging him by society's norms.
Well, that's what I'm getting at. I'm not attacking you or whining that I get judged, but asking you to evaluate why you feel that way, and offering some ideas as too why it may be. That, in turn, might help you come to terms with it and process it in a productive way, instead of just being something that nags at the back of your mind for some reason.
Thanks, Freudlad. I still don't think it's mainly selfish motives that now have me feeling down about a friend's decision to not have sprogs. It's not that simple. I genuinely feel sad for him because of the potential he'd have as a dad.
I mean, there are some as-yet or permanently childless couples where you think, thank fuck they don't have kids because neither of them has any kind of personality structure that would make that seem like a good idea. But then there are couples where you think that even though it's none of your business, it's kind of a shame they won't have kids because they just seem like they'd be great parents.
Not exclusively though. It can also mean something like the equivalent to a spinster, i.e. somebody who is past the point where most men would have got married, and who isn't likely to still get married.
