>>72585

> We've got one at work who's getting on a bit for age and evidently transitioned quite late on in life, so you can quite easily tell;

There was somebody like that in the queue at the service station a couple of weeks ago. Early 50s, with a skirt and blouse and a wig. Nobody seemed to acknowledge it one way or the other. Deep voice like your middle aged uncle.

>>72586
Not them, but don't a lot of the population generally work in offices? Worked in a call center with a MtF whose only indication of transness was having tits. Some of the women complained that they felt uncomfortable having that person in the girls toilets. Not because they were trans, ostensibly, but because of how they talked about people's bodies and their own. Other than that no-one gave a shit.

Worked in bars with a FtM who passes, and no one gives a shit there too. You can't be a victim forever M8, progress is happening.

>>72591
>Worked in bars with a FtM who passes, and no one gives a shit there too

I know four ftm and none of them pass. One looks like a girl with a pubey beard, but she dresses like a teddy boy so it kind of works. The other three look like scrawny little children.

DO YOU RECKON THEY COULD DO A SWAP SCHEME WHERE THEY TRANSPLANT THE PENIS OFF A BLOKE WHO WANTS TO BE A WOMAN ONTO A WOMAN WHO WANTS TO BE A MAN AND VICE VERSA?

SEEMS LIKE EVERYONE WOULD BE A LOT HAPPIER THEN

>>72593
I'm no surgeon (although I did recently remove a week old glass splinter from my middle finger), but I think that would be like trying to plug a SCART cable into a USB-C socket. And vice versa.

>>72593

You will have the risk of transplant tissue rejection, just like with any other body part from a donor that your body recognises as not being its own. You could maybe then take immune suppressing drugs that keep your body's defences in check. Like the ones you have to take after a kidney transplant. But they come with heavy side effects and often need to be taken lifelong. On top of all the weird shit your body goes through due to hormone replacement theory and the loss of your gonads. So it's actually on balance easier and puts less stress on your system to construct new genitals from your own tissue.

>>72595

How about if we swap their brains around

>>72596
They will change their minds plenty once they are women.

You know, I'm starting to wonder whether a certain type of trans person who says their issues can "lead to dark places" means specifically on the web rather than in depression or suicide.

>>72596
THEN THE BLOKES WHO WANT TO BE WOMEN WILL BECOME FINE WITH BEING BLOKES AND THE WOMEN WHO WANT TO BE BLOKES WILL BE FINE WITH BEING WOMEN BECAUSE OF THE WHOLE GENDER DYSPHORIA THING

>>72602

Looking for girls who are boys, who like boys to be girls, who do boys like they're girls, who do girls like they're boys

>>72603


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP4tr5bXsU0

People who use they/them pronouns are just doing it for attention or to be contrary. If you're trans and you change from male to female, you're now female, so use she/her/hers. Female to male? Now you're male, use He/him/his. Using they/them pronouns after you've transitioned is literally just unnecessary and it actually undermines your change of gender, it's like a subconscious self-reminder that you still aren't the gender you chose to become.

But hey, this is what we as a society get for pandering to a particular form of mental illness rather than treating it as we would any other, ie with meds and/or therapy.

Without fail, every trans person I have ever met either had underlying mental issues which they thought transitioning would solve, OR have done it because others in their friend/peer group have done it and they look at it like it's a trend.

>>72605
>>72606
There is no good reason for you to be so upset by any of this.

>>72605

More than probably 95 percent of people are perfectly comfortable not only being addressed with the pronouns reflecting their birth gender, but they will also think it's a bit weird that the remaining five percent, perhaps less, are even taking offence, and are expecting us 95 percent to stop using those gender pronouns altogether. It's the tail wagging the dog.

You're a minority, not the majority. I guess that's the key thing that gets lost. You shouldn't get to dictate what 95 percent of the population must do. Fine, claim the right for yourself to be addressed as a they, them, or whatever else. No problem. But everything beyond that is just social autism on your part.

>>72607

Not upset, just very annoyed.

>>72609

just social autism on your part.

>>72610

So you think that 95 percent of us should adjust our behaviour, presumably even when we're just among ourselves with no non-cis or non-binary person in sight, just so the other five percent don't get offended?

And to be clear, if I see somebody like that, I will still do them the favour of calling them what they prefer. Just don't make some kind of dogma out of it, like it's suddenly some kind of potentially cancellable offence to call 95 percent of people the way you see them.

>>72613

Again, this is not a real issue that you've been worked up into a frenzy over, Mister Gervais. There are actual injustices happening in the world, including injustices happening to you, which matter infinitely more than your right to offend minorities.

>>72613

Nobody is saying that you have to change your pronouns, daftm8.

>>72615
It's m7, as in Meven, thank you very much.

>>72613

>So you think that 95 percent of us should adjust our behaviour, presumably even when we're just among ourselves with no non-cis or non-binary person in sight, just so the other five percent don't get offended?

This is a british website, and you're questioning the concept of being polite?

>>72617
Yes, it would be polite of people to understand that they're not entitled to have their self perception validated by others, nor should they expect it.

The difference is in misusing pronouns or deadnaming with malice. Realistically most trans people I've met are relaxed and wouldn't be bothered if you did either of those things mistakenly, but if they didn't know you and perhaps had reason to dislike you then it would go down badly.

It just does all feel like theatre though, because I still don't see the people I refer to as 'she' as a woman, or female, I just know they want to be seen as that. Now does this make me a polite bigot, or does it make me better than the rest of you who have a frictionless experience because you appear to actually perceive these people as women or females, or men and males? I wish we could just do away with the concept of gender, it's utterly ridiculous.

>>72618
Oh do stop whinging.

>>72619

I love when you smug liberal guardian reading quinoa eating ocado delivery ordering free range soya milk drinking lib dem voting middle class uni degree having twitter users think you're playing a briliant uno reverse card turnabout strategy by calling the other side snowflakes. Ha! never know how to deal with that one will they! fuckin' got 'em!

>>72620

Whatever you have to tell yourself mate.

>>72618
You're doing what everyone does. It is really the bare minimum of decency. If I got a sex change, I would ask everyone to refer to me as "she" and call me Sarah or Helen or Indonesia or whichever name I pick. You know I'm not a proper she yet, but the first stage of the sex-change procedure is to live as a woman before anything actually gets changed. In other words, everyone has to pretend. And everyone knows they're pretending. Bravely pointing this out is like saying you're a dangerous hardman because you could batter a woman in a fight. It's not an achievement and bringing it up only ruins things for the people it affects.

>>72618

>I wish we could just do away with the concept of gender, it's utterly ridiculous.

You're so close to getting it

>>72618

If your mate Jimmy told you he was changing his name to Dave because he hated the name Jimmy, how long do you think you would keep calling him Jimmy before he stopped talking to you? How much of a reason would he have to give, would he have to explain to you that it upset him when you used the name he explicitly told you he no longer uses?

Who cares what gender you think these people are, they're fucking telling you what gender they are, what exactly is the harm of going with that? I just genuinely don't understand why it's an issue. The weird bloke at the bus stop thinks he's a reincarnated pigeon, I don't typically argue with him, I just let him eat seed out of my hand.

>>72624

If your mate told you they were now squirrel how long do you think you should be allowed to tell them that they are not a squirrel before it is considered a hate crime

The basis of all morality is a respect for the truth. What your logic invites is to become entirely a passive observer of reality unable to express reason and logic and honesty. What good is knowing the emperor has no clothes if I may never speak of it.

There is nothing benign about a sex change. If your friend told you they were going to take steroids you might tell them that is dangerous, if a friend told you they were going to get plastic surgery you might tell them that is vain and you should be comfortable how you already are, if a friend told you they were going to castrate themselves you would tell them that is a terrible idea, but when you combine these ideas together suddenly we should be instantly supporting and never speak of the dangers.

>>72625

Why are you pretending that being evangelist christian korean youtuber isn't scientifically accepted? I feel like you have far too strong an opinion on something you know nothing about, except that it makes you feel funny.

>>72625

I'm genuinely curious, do you believe that doctors allow gender affirming procedures and treatments because they're scared of being cancelled? An entire community of professionals just rolls around chopping cocks off because of social embarrassment?

Or do you reckon they've done some research.

>>72627
Doctors allow gender reassignment because they believe it is the best way to treat a mental disorder. If they discovered a different better way to treat that mental disorder. Or someone demonstrated that that treatment was more harmful than not having that treatment they would spin on a dime. Because they are at least in principle not corrupted by an agenda and are simply taking a reductionst position. If for example they concluded a lobotomy was better treatment they would do that. I would not put too much faith in 'doctors say it is okay' as an argument because their position is in principl, fickle. What the doctors are not doing is saying someone is correct in their belief, simply they are happier if the rest of us don't deny their belief.

The same argument for gender reassignment as far as doctors are concerned is the the same as a person who is convinced their leg is a parasite that they must attack, the removal seems to make them happy and they are beyond convincing of the simple and obvious fact that they are wrong.

>>72628
Which side are you on? Because I get the feeling you were trying to make sex changes sound crazy and stupid, but if it's the best way to make these people feel better, then obviously it is the correct way to do things. You do get the occasional person who regrets getting a sex change, but they're a tiny minority of this tiny minority.

>>72628

>Doctors allow gender reassignment because they believe it is the best way to treat a mental disorder

Ok, lovely. But it's a ludicrous thing for someone to ask you to use their preferred pronouns? I don't get it, you acknowledge that medical intervention is a valid treatment, but refuse to do the absolute bare minimum of respecting someone's identity before, after or during this treatment?

I regret making this thread.

>>72629

Just because something is considered the current best treatment does not mean it is the best treatment that will exist. My side is I hate the implication that gender affirming is a done deal because that is considered the best treatment for someone by doctors (which is what the post I was responding to was saying). It is the equivalent of American Christians using the zinger 'one nation under god'. The doctors position side steps the question of if it is true or not. It is impolite to tell regions people they believe in fairytales but that doesn't make it reality.

Some things are more important than protecting feelings and I would argue a proper exploration of the truth, even at the risk of violating beliefs is one of them. You can argue that it isn't polite to do and that might have some validity in social settings, but that isn't a real argument.

We saw a whole generation online initially talking about how personal belief didn't matter and that we should be rational skeptics only to do a total 180 when they realised the logic they applied to Christians could be applied to transexuals. Suddenly personal beliefs become hyper important. Evidently respect for the truth or personal freedoms are not core beliefs of most people just tools to argue you believe in when you have an aligning agenda.

>>72630

Would it be a ludicrous thing for someone to insist you pray to their god? At a certain point you are crossing the threshold from having a personal belief and imposing that belief on others. I will observe these things only in as far as I don't want a fight but you can not pretend observation of protocol is the same as being convinced of something.

>>72632

>Would it be a ludicrous thing for someone to insist you pray to their god? At a certain point you are crossing the threshold from having a personal belief and imposing that belief on others.

To be fair, for all everybody knows, God, or a god, is still an invisible being or entity whose existence has never been proven through means of science.

There is plenty of sound medical science both documenting and explaining gender dysphoria, while proof of the existence of a god is still sketchy at best.

What's different is when you get dogmatic about gender and gender dysphoria. For example, gender studies, not unlike the search for the existence of a god, has still not proven to scientific standards that more than two genders actually exist. It's all just self-referential, circular reasoning. Where the idea that several or even many genders exist is just that, and everything else has to be brought and kept in line with that idea, which is considered unshakable fact. And in that sense, it's not that different from most religions that claim the existence of a god without what most people would consider reasonable proof.

In that sense, the way some people deal with and express the idea of gender and expect others to agree with them unquestioningly is just as much dogma that you as an outsider have the right to reject as you would have the right to reject somebody else's religous beliefs.

>>72632

>Would it be a ludicrous thing for someone to insist you pray to their god?

This is actually the perfect question, because if someone asked me to pray to their god, and I thought it would somehow make them feel better, I definitely would, because I don't believe in their god, I don't care, I would just be being nice. I wouldn't start a debate with them because it simply doesn't matter, I know I'm right.

Similarly you know trans bollocks is all bollocks, so why wouldn't you play pretend with them, it doesn't hurt you.

>>72635

This crops up a fair bit politically, with stuff like Jess Phillips going to her local igloo. Some people (naming no names, but obviously Are Kemi) seem to think that it's cowardly to be polite.

I take offence at the fact that Phillips has been on the Ozempic and doesn't look like a homely dinner lady any more.

OP met someone they didn't like and chose to make it all about their identity. There's a word for that, but I'll just select 'cunt' instead.

>>72637
>SOMEONE THEY DIDN'T LIKE
Was it you?

>>72635

>because if someone asked me to pray to their god, and I thought it would somehow make them feel better, I definitely would, because I don't believe in their god, I don't care, I would just be being nice.

It obviously depends on context. If somebody was dying and they asked me if I believed they would go to heaven, naturally, I'd be the last to say, "No, you thick git, there is no heaven".

But if somebody casually asked me to pray to their god with them, then I would refuse and politely tell them that my beliefs are otherwise.

That's the thing about politeness. People have forgotten that you can politely decline something, and still don't make yourself look like an inconsiderate arsehole.

And how polite is it really, as a minority, to expect the whole rest of the world to see things entirely the way you do, and tolerate no differing views. That's pretty presumptuos, if you ask me.

>>72639
If they were really being as aggressively militant as you say, then you would have a perfectly valid point. But in my experience, when I meet one outdoors in real life, they are very laidback. You might just need to touch grass.

I thought we had solved this pretty early on when furlad and translad clarified that's there's a difference between authentic trans people and just people with narcissistic personality disorder who are looking to cause drama.

A great deal of "the issue" comes from, and is perpetuated by two things: a) people encountering the latter, and mistakenly believing they represent the former, b) reactionary types deliberately conflating the latter with the former, and c) inverse reactionary types who bend over backwards to insist there's no such thing as the latter and only the former.

One side has got it mixed up from the word go, and the other side is unwittingly defending deeply toxic people.

Orange president man just declared the new official policy of the United States is that there are only two genders. Why can't other countries get a dose of this common sense?

>>72643
There’s a difference between sex and gender. This new policy only applies to the nonbinary community. Sex changes are still fine, as indeed they should be. He’s phrasing it so that numpties think he will do what they want, but nothing in those words will stop evangelist christian korean youtuber women from participating in women’s sports or whatever else those numpties are afraid of. In fact, by referring to them as genders rather than sexes, if anything, he is tacitly endorsing evangelist christian korean youtuberism.

>>72644

Sex and Gender both mean the same thing and they always did until the evangelist christian korean youtubers trend started to rise

>>72645
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex–gender_distinction
>In the Oxford English Dictionary, gender is defined as—in a modern and especially fisherperson use—"a euphemism for the sex of a human being, often intended to emphasise the social and cultural, as opposed to the biological, distinctions between the sexes", with the earliest example cited being from 1963.[55]

So the difference has always been there, but nobody actually cared about it until it became an entire culture war. You might think the difference was only added when people started discussing it every day, but no, it turns out the only thing that changed was when people started being pedantic online.

>>72646

>turns out the only thing that changed was when people started being pedantic online.

Which nobody could have predicted, ever.