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|>>|| No. 18042
Shamima Begum: Bring me home, says Bethnal Green girl who left to join Isis
On the day the caliphate suffered a mortal blow the teenage London bride of an Islamic State fighter lifted her veil. Her two infant children were dead; her husband in captivity. Nineteen years old, nine months pregnant, weak and exhausted from her escape across the desert, she nevertheless looked calm and spoke with a collected voice.
“I’m not the same silly little 15-year-old schoolgirl who ran away from Bethnal Green four years ago,” she told me. “And I don’t regret coming here.”
With those words and the act of lifting her niqab, a mystery ended. The girl sitting before me, alone in a teeming Syrian refugee camp of 39,000 people where she is registered as No 28850, was Shamima Begum, the only known survivor of the three schoolgirls from Bethnal Green Academy whose fate has been unknown at home since they fled Britain together in 2015 to join Islamic State.
Ms Begum may have reached comparative safety, yet she chastised herself for leaving the last Isis territory as Kurd forces, backed by the West, closed in.
“I was weak,” she told me of her flight from the battle in Baghuz, with something akin to remorse. “I could not endure the suffering and hardship that staying on the battlefield involved. But I was also frightened that the child I am about to give birth to would die like my other children if I stayed on. So I fled the caliphate. Now all I want to do is come home to Britain.”
Should someone who quite clearly doesn't regret going to join ISIS and is still sympathetic to their plight be allowed back in this country? Then again, she'd already been 'radicalised' by those closest to her in this country.
|>>|| No. 18549
Maybe in your eyes, not in the eyes of the 80% of the population that don't give a toss about daft militant wogs.
|>>|| No. 18550
>If she goes through Iraq, we need support (or at least a blind eye) from Iraq, Iraqi Kurdistan and America.
All of whom would endorse the removal of foreign fighters and support from the area. Iraq are sick of having to pick up the pieces of our mess, the Kurds are possibly the most progressive regime in the area, and the Americans have explicitly said that we should have taken Begum back.
>A military operation
Why do we need the military? If we don't have local fixers on the ground we're doing something seriously wrong.
>to rescue someone from an active warzone
She's not in an "active warzone". She's in a refugee camp. Wouldn't be much of a refuge if it was in the middle of all the fighting.
|>>|| No. 18551
You still appear to be under the misapprehension that we're desperately keen to rescue Begum and that I'm arguing that it's impossible. I'm setting out the case for why it would be logistically and politically challenging to do a thing that the government don't want to do in the first place.
The Iraqis and Kurds might not oppose us retrieving Begum, but they have rather a lot on their plate at the moment. We're not asking for them to slip some nobody out of the country; we're asking them to help us retrieve someone who is now one of the most famous IS sympathisers in the world. By talking to the press, Begum sabotaged her ability to safely leave Syria.
We could use an unarmed convoy to get her out, but the risk of that convoy being ambushed is significant and the political blow-back of such a failure would be massive. The decision to rescue Begum would already be pretty unpopular, but her rescue attempt turning into a massacre would be a catastrophic embarrassment.
She's in a refugee camp in the middle of a warzone. You have to go through the warry bit to get to the non-warry bit. We didn't eradicate IS, we just scattered them to the winds; they may only control a tiny enclave in the south-east, but they're still armed, organised and active. IS would quite like to kill the traitor and send a message to others that there's no escape from the caliphate; if they can capture a few aid workers in the process and give them a rather drastic haircut in glorious HD, all the better. She's reasonably safe from IS at the moment because she hasn't actually denounced the group and she's behind the secure cordon of a refugee camp; as soon as she crosses that cordon en route to Britain, she's a marked woman. Groups that oppose IS would also very much like to get their hands on Begum, so she's at risk from all quarters.
It's not that we couldn't do it, but there's a yawning chasm between the political will to do so and the resources that would be required. There's no practical impediment to us building a 100ft tall statue in honour of Gary Glitter, but that's never going to happen either.
|>>|| No. 18552
>and the Americans have explicitly said that we should have taken Begum back.
I'm sorry but do people still take America seriously?
|>>|| No. 18553
When you've got an orange idiot in charge of the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world, you don't really have much choice.
|>>|| No. 18554
I rather suspect that some quiet and earnest men who don't attract the spotlight will have taken measures to ensure Trump's impulsiveness can't cause danger in that area.
|>>|| No. 18555
The structure of decision making for the use of nuclear weapons in the U.S. is fascinating and well worth reading about. Dan Ellsberg is my go to source for this.
|>>|| No. 18556
"Sincere apologies, Mr President, we are working around the clock to repair *the big red button*"
|>>|| No. 18557
It's a refugee camp not the fucking Somme. Just stick her in the back of one of the many aid trucks going in and out while the government waffles on about how we're totally not going to save her. I'm sure we can convince some aid agency to do it for the change down the back of the couch and if it all goes tits-up we've not lost anything.
You seem to have gotten called out in a lot of assumptions and are now just being flippant.
|>>|| No. 18558
>You seem to have gotten called out in a lot of assumptions and are now just being flippant.
Weird, first time I posted was that post.
|>>|| No. 18559
As if being called out on assumptions was the worst part of that accusation.
|>>|| No. 18560
>stick her in the back of one of the many aid trucks going in and out
As has already been said, that would expose any NGO working in the area to unnecessary risk about seen to be taking sides.
|>>|| No. 18569
I thought the debate was around revoking her citizenship or not, not trudging into deepest, darkest, Syria to get her out?
|>>|| No. 18571
It was, but then Labour decided to try and use a dead baby for political point scoring.
|>>|| No. 18572
There's a spectrum of opinion. Revoking her citizenship is blatantly illegal (and largely unnecessary), but a lot of people think that we have a duty to bring her back rather than just allowing her to return.
Some people think that she should be brought back to face justice, but it's not entirely clear that we could gather enough evidence to make any sort of prosecution. Others think that we should organise her return on humanitarian grounds, but that sets a slightly weird precedent, because a) that's not something the FCO would normally do for a British citizen and b) we don't have an embassy in Syria.
|>>|| No. 18573
>but it's not entirely clear that we could gather enough evidence to make any sort of prosecution
I don't think that's the case at all. It's abundantly clear there's enough evidence to prosecute for membership of a proscribed organisation. The question there is more one of whether it would be appropriate to prosecute someone who has been groomed. Words were had over some of the sex abuse grooming cases when children who had introduced other children to the gangs were themselves charged as accessories.
|>>|| No. 18724
>Shamima Begum's lawyer has been unable to get the Isis bride's permission to launch an appeal for British citizenship after he was blocked from entering the camp she is in by Syrian forces.
>Tasnime Akunjee was stopped just "50 metres" from Begum after travelling thousands of miles to the al-Roj camp in north-eastern Syria. He was there to get her signature on paperwork necessary to start the process to appeal against the government's decision to remove her UK citizenship.
>The lawyer told the Guardian: “She can’t get legal advice and I have even been there and tried, but got detained for my efforts. It cannot be that this is in any way just. I knew which tent she was in, I got aerial photographs. Where I stood in the camp she was about two rows down - she was less than 50 metres from me. It was so frustrating. Intelligence officers at the camp have decided that no one is allowed in or out of the camp – nothing gets in and nothing gets out, apart from food.”
Piece of piss getting her out and to a consulate, mind.
|>>|| No. 18725
>blocked from entering the camp she is in by Syrian forces
Are they even allowed to do that? Interfering with the business of a refugee camp sounds like the sort of thing that might be against international law. Thank goodness we haven't done anything like that, otherwise we'd look like right dicks complaining about it.
|>>|| No. 18731
I think Syria is well beyond that. It's like when people stated making a big fuss about whether the chemical weapons attacks were war crimes or not:
Did they suddenly expect the attacks to stop if it was pointed out they were war crimes?
Were the other attacks alright because they weren't war crimes?
It's beyond me.
|>>|| No. 18732
If war crimes are committed, the war police are supposed to step in and stop whodunnit, or at least prosecute and possibly execute them afterwards. So yes, in theory, proving someone is committing war crimes is a way to stop them.
|>>|| No. 18733
What happened here is that the war police have a bent copper who let it all happen and prevented anyone from doing anything about it.
|>>|| No. 18734
Yes. But that doesn't stop people from shouting "Help! That man stole my warpurse!"
|>>|| No. 18746
It blows my mind even more that there are a great many successful male streamers too.
|>>|| No. 18747
Do female streamers actually stream themselves doing things or is it just a case of them being a cocktease/acting like a surrogate girlfriend?
|>>|| No. 18748
Just a case of them being a cocktease/acting like a surrogate girlfriend.
I don't know why more people haven't clocked on to this yet. Twitch streamers, camgirls/boys, waifus, friend-group podcasters, youtube celebrities. They're all just surrogate relationships for increasingly isolated populations. There's some irony in RedLetterMedia making fun of "Video best friend" VHS tapes they find as they sit around chatting to the camera over a beer. Under a veneer of film reviewing they're performing the exact same parasocial function.
|>>|| No. 18749
This is such a stupid, worst-cast-scenario, manner of thinking. These things are a replacement for the TV and radio, they make people laugh or just bauble away in the background.
|>>|| No. 18750
They're for weirdos and saddos, just like internet dating was for weirdos and saddos over a decade ago.
|>>|| No. 18753
The whole reason Mukbang is popular is so people can replicate the feeling of eating together as a part of a social group. You can have a conversation with people and pretend that the Pot Noodle, you're devouring in your pants is the ramen that the streamer is eating.
|>>|| No. 18754
Why is a post that referenced previous posts talking about camwhores talking about camwhores?
|>>|| No. 18755
Yes, in a thread that had hitherto contained no previous posts about camwhores.
|>>|| No. 18814
Nah, some of them are - where its presented as a show but a lot of youtube shit like this is just a bit of one-sided social stimulation. But yeah I indulge in this crap and its defo what it is, I acknowledge that.
|>>|| No. 18903
>Brexit afforded the one flash of humour in our conversation. Kept abreast of Britain’s political seizures by a TV in the tent she shares with other wives of foreign fighters in al-Roj, Ms Begum appeared every bit as disillusioned with the process as most of her country.
>“Brexit: it goes on and on without end,” she said, with a brief laugh. “It’s so boring now that I ask the sisters to flick on to the cartoon channel just to get away from it.”
Even refugees stuck in Syria are fed up of Brexit.
|>>|| No. 18904
>a TV in the tent
When lefties are crying about her citizenship entitling her to return to Britain they don't tell you that she's essentially glamping.
|>>|| No. 19020
Shamima Begum, the Bethnal Green schoolgirl, served in the Islamic State’s “morality police” and also tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group, well-placed sources have told The Telegraph.
She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict “enforcer” of Isil’s laws, such as dress codes for women, sources claimed. The claims are at odds with Miss Begum’s own account of her four years with the group, which she joined at the age of just 15.
Miss Begum, now aged 19, has insisted she was never involved in Isil’s brutality but spent her time in Syria as a devoted housewife to a jihadist fighter.
Begum, now 19, had previously said she was “just a housewife” during the time she spent in the de facto Isis capital of Raqqa, Syria, with her Dutch extremist husband Yago Riedijk.
However, Dutch and American spy agencies that have interrogated other western converts to Isis said Begum had been witnessed preparing people for suicide bomb attacks, according to The Mail on Sunday.
Begum left her home in Bethnal Green, east London, in 2015 with two school friends. All three are now alleged to have been members of a notorious all-female “police squad” that punished those judged to be breaking Islamic law. Aghiad al-Kheder, an activist from Deir Ezzor, told The Sunday Telegraph that Begum had carried a Kalashnikov rifle and had a reputation for being strict on women she thought were behaving in a “non-Islamic” way.
Just an innocent little housewife, lads. That's why she was preparing people for suicide bomb attacks, trying to recruit other women to join ISIS and had a reputation as a member of their morality police.
|>>|| No. 19021
All the more reason to bring her back and prosecute her. The idea that we leave some other country's poorly-functioning judicial system to deal with a member of the morality police?
|>>|| No. 19022
It's probably a massive flat screen telly though, which we've already established on here is fine for the lower classes to have.
|>>|| No. 19023
Exactly. ISIS fighters in refugee camps shouldn't be deprived of nice things just because they've made poor life choices; they need something to brighten up their mundane existence.
|>>|| No. 19024
This. I thought the whole shitting-all-over-the-world-and-leaving-the-locals-to-clean-up thing was supposed to have finished with the end of Empire. Unless this is part of a strategy to court reactionary voters with "look, we're bringing back the good old days".
|>>|| No. 19025
We've discussed this at length; "bringing her back" is complex and risky, however you slice it.
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