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>> No. 19143 Anonymous
29th April 2019
Monday 10:14 pm
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Rape victims among those to be asked to hand phones to police

Victims of crimes, including those alleging rape, are to be asked to hand their phones over to police - or risk prosecutions not going ahead.

Consent forms asking for permission to access information including emails, messages and photographs have been rolled out in England and Wales. It comes after a number of rape and serious sexual assault cases collapsed when crucial evidence emerged.

Victim Support said the move could stop victims coming forward. But police and prosecutors say the forms can plug a gap in the law which says complainants and witnesses cannot be forced to disclose relevant content from phones, laptops, tablets or smart watches.

Director of Public Prosecutions Max Hill said such digital information would only be looked at where it forms a "reasonable" line of inquiry, with material going before a court only if it meets stringent rules.


This seems like a worrying turn of events and the unintended consequence of the political pressure to increase the number of rape convictions spearheaded by Alison Saunders.
19 posts omitted. Last 50 posts shown. Expand all images.
>> No. 19182 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 6:38 pm
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So you're fine with an innocent person going to jail because they're not allowed to look on someone else's phone to get the evidence that would prove their innocence?

You can't do "proper police work" about sexual assault, that's why it's in such a clusterfuck to begin with. Unless you're suggesting we invent the technology from fucking Minority Report, how do you suppose we sort those cases of one person's word against another out?
>> No. 19183 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 7:04 pm
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Why don't they have that same evidence on their own phone? I'm assuming you mean texts of some sort.
>> No. 19186 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 7:43 pm
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Stuff gets deleted, phones get lost, things intentionally self-destruct (Snapchat etc). The relevant evidence isn't necessarily communication between the defendant and the plaintiff - it could be a location log showing that they were in different places at the time of the alleged assault, it could be a communication between the plaintiff and a third party, it could be a photo or a video. Getting that data off a phone might be a simple case of scrolling through their recent texts, or it might require sophisticated digital forensics techniques.

Rape and sexual assault are really hard to prove and always have been. Digital data can be hugely useful to both the defence and prosecution, but the problem is the vast amounts of data that might be relevant. A case that would once have been a straightforward matter of your word versus mine could now be as complex as a major fraud investigation, with tens of thousands of items of evidence that could prove or disprove the allegation.
>> No. 19191 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 11:17 pm
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>it could be a location log showing that they were in different places at the time of the alleged assault

I think it's safe to say I am not the only person who is greatly uncomfortable with that thought. The only way to obtain such a location log is to store that data before a crime was even committed in the first place that a person may have been involved in. So effectively you are going to have to log the location of every single person in the country continuously, criminal or no, and what you are doing with that is you're weakening the presumption of innocence and the right to privacy.

In a free country, I maintain that it simply isn't any of the government's business to either know my current whereabouts at all times or keep a continuous log of where I have been. If somebody becomes a prime suspect in a crime, then that's a different thing altogether and it's arguably in the public's interest to monitor that person to find out if they are dirty. But to keep an eye on every law-abiding average citizen like that isn't the surveillance state, it's looking at the surveillance state in the rear view mirror.
>> No. 19192 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 11:32 pm
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Most people's phones store that data by default, whether they realise it or not. We don't need a centralised database to get that data, just a USB cable and the right software. That's part of the reason why drug dealers prefer old Nokias to smartphones - the very things that make smartphones smart also make them a massive hoard of evidence.

RIPA gives the police the right to extract that data on a suspect's device (and to charge you with an offence if you refuse to unlock your device). I disagree with that, but it is currently the law of the land. If that evidence can be used by the prosecution, then it must also be available to the defence.
>> No. 19194 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 11:49 pm
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I can't quite remember how, but I believe I deactivated location logging when I got my Samsung S9 a while ago.
>> No. 19195 Anonymous
9th May 2019
Thursday 11:59 pm
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There's an option to turn off location history in the device settings, but most people never use it. A lot of features don't work unless you have it turned on. The camera app will also store the GPS location in the EXIF data unless you turn off geotagging, as many celebrities (and a handful of soldiers and daft militant wogs) have found out to their cost.

There are also non-obvious sources of metadata such as fitness trackers. FitBit continually measures and stores your heart rate, which has been used as evidence in a couple of murder cases in the US.


>> No. 19196 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 12:23 am
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I've got bad news for you mate. Do you remember the wierd Orwellian streak our government had ten years or so back, wanting ID cards and cameras everywhere? Why do you think they dropped it? Google helpfully stepped in to do it for them.
>> No. 19198 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 1:55 am
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>I think it's safe to say I am not the only person who is greatly uncomfortable with that thought. The only way to obtain such a location log is to store that data before a crime was even committed in the first place that a person may have been involved in.

Do yourself a favour, log into your google account on https://www.google.co.uk/maps/timeline

I'm sure Apple has their own equivalent.
>> No. 19201 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 11:46 am
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It tells me that the timeline feature is deactivated on my phone. And then when I activate it, it tells me that there is no timeline data for my device.

Check mate.

I also normally keep GPS switched off. This causes issues with apps that refuse to function without GPS location data, but it's a small price to pay.
>> No. 19203 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 12:45 pm
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>Check mate.
I did mate.
>> No. 19204 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 3:06 pm
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Send a FOI request to Google.

They know, mate. They don't need your permission or your GPS turned on, that information can be obtained by the cross-reference of dozens of other sources, and that's exactly what the algorithms do.
>> No. 19205 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 3:42 pm
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Well, good. But my point is that most people have it on.

Despite being a privacy nutjob myself I do actually see the appeal in that feature, in a weird way. It'd be nice to look back on your trips and adventures in that way. Mine would have loads of dots all over the place. But mine's disabled too, obviously.
>> No. 19206 Anonymous
10th May 2019
Friday 4:05 pm
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A friend who likes to go on all kinds of holidays to remote places in Asia says he always makes sure he geotags all his pictures on his phone and stand alone camera. I'm not sure that's necessary to remember all the places you have visited. All the major landmarks you photograph can be looked up quickly online, and I don't see the point of knowing within a few feet the exact location where you took a photo of a sleeping elephant or a nondescript river bank out in the jungle.
>> No. 19212 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 7:57 am
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I think the thing I don't get about the location history thing, is that for most people it would just be a depressing circuit between home, their workplace, and their supermarket. Even as someone who likes to travel and go hiking and so on, probably 95% of my time is spent between those three places. Even if you think of yourself as pretty adventurous, in the grand scheme of things you're probably not as much as you think- The deviations to new locations are going to be a tiny fraction compared to the time you spend between your workplace and at home.
>> No. 19213 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 10:26 am
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Google Assistant can still do some useful stuff with that data. It can warn you that you need to leave for work early because of traffic. You can say "Hey Google, remind me to buy bin bags when I'm at the supermarket" and it'll do that. If you've got a Nest thermostat, it can automatically turn your heating on when you leave work so it'll be warm by the time you get home. If you ask "Hey Google, do I need an umbrella today?" it'll check the weather for both your current location and your expected locations later in the day.

That's the quid pro quo - it'll do some slightly convenient things if you hand over all of your personal information. The sales figures for Google Home and Amazon Echo suggest that it's quite a popular tradeoff.
>> No. 19215 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 1:31 pm
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>It can warn you that you need to leave for work early because of traffic.

If you've worked at your job any length of time, you will know to allow an extra 20 minutes a day because traffic can be dense every other day where you need to go.

>If you've got a Nest thermostat, it can automatically turn your heating on when you leave work so it'll be warm by the time you get home.

The horror of sitting in an unheated flat for 20 minutes after you come home.

>"Hey Google, do I need an umbrella today?" it'll check the weather for both your current location and your expected locations later in the day.

You could just look out the window, or ask weather.com. Or invest in one of those miniature umbrellas that fit in a briefcase.

Honestly, today's generation is doomed. If you put a bunch of them in the desert for a week without all their electronic gadgets, none of them would survive. Even if you provide enough food and water.
>> No. 19221 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 4:45 pm
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There's a difference between taking advantage of convenient technology and being completely reliant on it. I don't think there's anyone in the world who couldnt find put if they need a brolly if Alexa hadnt told them.
>> No. 19222 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 6:19 pm
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>Honestly, today's generation is doomed. If you put a bunch of them in the desert for a week without all their electronic gadgets, none of them would survive. Even if you provide enough food and water.

They've been saying that for centuries, what makes it true this time?
>> No. 19223 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 6:26 pm
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In the past people have learned to take a lot of things for granted, people generally don't know how to do manual tasks like start a fire, or skin a rabbit, but most people are more than capable of learning with a bit of effort.
What concerns me about the current direction technology has moved in, is that people are getting used to now having to think for themselves, they don't know how to learn.
>> No. 19224 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 6:27 pm
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I assume we're contemporaries and I'd just like to ask that you don't post shitty 4chan memes when speaking on behalf of all of us.
>> No. 19225 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 6:30 pm
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Arguably it's true now and always has been. You'd die of exposure in a desert even if you had food and water.
>> No. 19228 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 6:46 pm
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Nah, mate, my nan, right, she could could just make a Jabba the Hut skiff out of empty water bottles and used Kendall Mint cake wrappers. That's how she escaped the Krauts during the war. Me? I'm not even sure which war she was on about. Penisular I think, but it's anyone's guess the way her mind's gone.
>> No. 19229 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 7:16 pm
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>they don't know how to learn

Are you on crack?

I know how to wire my house up, I know how to tear apart and rebuild an engine, I know how to survive in the wilderness, I know how to build a shed, and I learned all of this by googling it. When you search "how to top up my oil" it doesn't do it for you, it tells you how to do it, then you do it. It's utterly incomprehensible to me that people think the entire wealth of human knowledge being available at all times to everyone with a phone or computer is somehow detrimental to learning. Asking Alexa what the weather like is no different to looking it up on teletext or watching whatshisface run around on that floating map - it's just faster.

I'll concede I'm worse at spelling now that autocorrect exists, mind.
>> No. 19233 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 7:39 pm
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My nan can't reliably play a DVD without accidentally turning on the Danish subtitles or the director's commentary. My mum doesn't know how to use keyboard shortcuts in Word, despite the fact that she's used Word all day every day for the last 20 years. When I used to work in an office, the older workers looked at me like I was a wizard because I could unjam the printer and use Pivot Tables in Excel.

Everyone over 50 is thick as mince. Most people under 50 are also thick as mince, but at least some of them aren't completely bewildered by any technology more advanced than a Bic Biro.
>> No. 19236 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 8:12 pm
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My mum mentioned off hand in a conversation with me that she needed a new car because hers didn't have enough power and she was struggling to make gaps in roundabouts etc because it was so slow. It's a 1.6 Micra so it should be nippy enough, so I went to have a look at it, assuming the brakes were binding or the engine was knackered. It seemed fine to me, and after a while, and many questions, I finally worked out that the issue was that she wasn't pressing the accelerator pedal down far enough.

I don't understand how people are like this. She's genuinely quite a practical woman, but when it comes to something she decides is 'too complicated' then there's immediately a barrier there. She never even considered trying to change the way she was driving.

It's the same story with computers, and I see it in my grandad too. He's the sort of bloke who takes something apart just to see how it works, yet refuses to do even a fraction of the same thing inside Windows. I've told him many times that's how I learned - I tried stuff out. Back in those days it was easier to knack something (I did manage to format a hard drive via BIOS) but now, I reckon even if you tried to break Windows entirely you'd have a hard job without disabling all of the automatic protection. But I think they just decide that they simply can't ever learn it. I just don't get it. If I shoved my modular synth in front of him he'd suss out exactly how it worked within an hour or so, but just can't even begin to try to work out how to log in to his Barclays account online.

Honestly, the older generation is doomed. If they can't even work out how to ask Alexa where the nearest McDonalds is, how are they going to fend off the scammers after their pensions?
>> No. 19237 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 8:15 pm
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I guess in the end, it's all about adaptation to your contemporary environment. In today's world as a functioning adult, you simply aren't viable if you don't know how to use a mobile phone or a number of other electronic devices and gadgets. And people past a certain age who aren't digital natives just struggle to keep up.

But if you with your smartphone and your Alexa pod were transported back to a farmstead in the 1600s where you had to be self sufficient and know how to do such things as sow wheat so you would have food over the winter, or fix a broken cartwheel on your own without which you couldn't take your other produce to the town market to earn a few shillings, or if you didn't know what herbs to collect if you had stomach problems (and avoid the ones that are poisonous while doing so), you would be dead in the water.

I read an article some time ago about the "Mediaeval" scene, you know, where people's idea of weekend fun is to dress in chain mail, wield swords, drink mead from cow horns and attempt to speak Middle English. They asked a historian whose area of expertise was actually the English Middle Ages, and that historian said that the overwhelming majority of them wouldn't survive more than a few days if they were actually teleported back to that period.

Serves them right. Tossers.
>> No. 19239 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 9:06 pm
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We don't live in the 1600s though, we live in 2019. Those people from the 1600s would be totally fucked if they were transported to paleolithic Africa, because they wouldn't recognise any of the flora and fauna and wouldn't know how to knap flint tools or start a fire without a steel.

If for some reason I desperately needed a stone axe, I could learn how to make one in about an hour on YouTube. Same story if I need to mend an 18th century sewing machine or build a blacksmith's forge. The whole point of modernity is that we don't all need to know the most primitive skills of survival - we each specialise in something to collectively facilitate a far better standard of life. Old people are highly adapted to a world that doesn't exist any more and don't have the willingness or the cognitive flexibility to adapt.

IMO the most important skill in the modern world is knowing how to learn. I don't actually know much about computers, but I know how to type error messages into Google, which usually amounts to the same thing. I've never owned an iPhone, but I fix them for other people all the time, just because I'm better at Googling than them and have a vague conceptual model of how a computing device works.

My nan is worse at using a computer than my five-year-old nephew, not because of a difference in knowledge, but a difference in attitude. My nan won't touch anything unless she has been given explicit instructions on exactly what to do and she has no idea how to react if those instructions don't work, whereas my nephew will just have a go and see what happens.
>> No. 19242 Anonymous
11th May 2019
Saturday 10:17 pm
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I think the Internet has really become a game changer in terms of the acquisition of specialist knowledge. 30 years ago, if you wanted to know how to fix electronics, sure, there were a handful of books on DIY electronics that taught you how to solder in a capacitor or what transistors and LEDs were best suited for a particular project. But it generally couldn't replace professional training as an electronic technician. Nowadays, the same can't necessarily be said anymore. You've got DIYers on youtube who never had any professional training in that field, but who have amassed a wealth of knowledge via online resources that almost matches what you learn during a technical apprenticeship.
>> No. 19254 Anonymous
12th May 2019
Sunday 12:26 pm
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>If for some reason I desperately needed a stone axe, I could learn how to make one in about an hour on YouTube

They had youtube in paleolithic Africa?

>The whole point of modernity is that we don't all need to know the most primitive skills of survival

But that's exactly what makes us vulnerable. Many of us only know how to exist and survive in the kind of environment that Western civilisation provides today. If you're hungry, you go to a shop and get something to eat. Or to drink. If you need to travel a bit further afield, you get on a bus or train. Nobody has to walk three hours to get to the other side of town unless they really want to.

The question is, if that narrow band of favourable conditions that civilisation provides for the individual is ever really upset or breaks down, will most people be able to fend for themselves without all their little tech helpers and without all the infrastructure.

It would indeed be a good test to put a handful of people in the desert for a while or on a remote island to see what they are really made of. And I guess for that reason, I actually like shows like The Island With Bear Grylls. Let's leave aside the allegations of scripted reality and fakery for a moment and look at the concept itself. It takes people out of their comfort zone, and confronts them with a world where if you don't know how to make fire by rubbing pieces of wood together and you don't succeed at hunting and killing some wildlife, you simply won't eat. The show still provides a controlled environment where people can be flown out swiftly if they break their foot or are undernourished or dehydrated and where there is always a doctor in the group who has a few medical supplies on hand. But without any of that, you would see pretty quickly who really has what it takes to be a survivor regardless of the environment.
>> No. 19260 Anonymous
12th May 2019
Sunday 2:37 pm
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Over the last few years my mum's taught herself to "upcycle" funiture to the point that she's begun selling it commercially, but I still have to show her how to take a screenshot on her laptop. I just don't understand the disconnect some people have, maybe it's like being colour blind or something?
>> No. 19267 Anonymous
13th May 2019
Monday 10:42 am
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> The only way to obtain such a location log is to store that data before a crime was even committed in the first place
It's happening already. Data retention laws have been in place for a long time, in many countries.
Not to mention marketing departments who also love this kind of snooping.
>> No. 19268 Anonymous
13th May 2019
Monday 1:03 pm
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GDPR has taken care of marketing departments - the big holes are around advertising technology, where it is currently almost impossible to control your own data, and social networks, obviously, where people accidentally/willingly hand over enough information to create such detailed logs of preferences and movement.
>> No. 19272 Anonymous
13th May 2019
Monday 4:10 pm
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Europe maybe. Septics still have it up their collective arse. Don't even mention PRC and Russia.
And even with GDPR there's still the whole load of security apparatuses that have clearly shown they're still onto total informational awareness, the only difference being how blatant they are about it.
I can really feel that old Chinese curse now.
>> No. 19273 Anonymous
13th May 2019
Monday 6:42 pm
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Part of the reasons the Americans have to put up with it is that big business likes to maintain the illusion of freedom, and the fictions that restrictions on them would Stifle Innovation™ and that they're just a manifestation of the American Dream™. Also, apparently having rules is Communism™.
>> No. 19281 Anonymous
13th May 2019
Monday 11:37 pm
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That's about the size of it. People in the U.S. will defend a major corporation's freedom of speech even if that corporation then abuses that freedom of speech to fuck them in the arse worse than Louie Spence on a cocaine binge.

And it's coincidentally the same with free enterprise. Even the most dirt poor white trash redneck in a run-down trailer park will sing praise to American free enterprise, even if he himself will never in a million years see a single dime of profit from it for himself.

In that respect, you almost have to admire the degree of delusion that a lot of Americans have been brainwashed into.
>> No. 19282 Anonymous
14th May 2019
Tuesday 12:23 am
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Semi-related, but I realised recently just how bad it is for that lot to be in direct control of all the world's most massive internet companies. I wonder if Alphabet or Disney will win the final war between men.
>> No. 19283 Anonymous
14th May 2019
Tuesday 10:31 am
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The bigger worry is going to be net neutrality. The Republicans under Trump have seriously endangered it. If the major media corporations in the U.S. had their way, you would get "media packages" with your subscription to an Internet service that would block out smaller and independent news and media web sites that compete with the likes of Time Warner or News Corporation. You would then only be able to read news and information provided by the major media outlets that you have booked with your Internet service subscription.

This would greatly affect the poor, because the most affordable packages would only come with access to a handful of news sites, while you would have to pay a lot extra for full access to all of the Internet. And being that poor people already tend to be undereducated, it would only mean that they would be particularly susceptible to certain types of media propaganda.
>> No. 19284 Anonymous
14th May 2019
Tuesday 4:18 pm
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Russia has been acting up recently with its website blocking shite. Looking at your picture I think I vaguely get how they might implement whitelisting.
Sage for veering too far into the East.
>> No. 19288 Anonymous
15th May 2019
Wednesday 4:24 pm
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That almost certainly isn't how an absence of net neutrality will work in the US at all. But since you and the tech companies who made up that idea are on the 'right side' I'm not going to poo poo you too much.

All I'm going to say is you probably didn't mind when the mobile shops on the highstreet were offering unlimited pokemon go data.
>> No. 19289 Anonymous
15th May 2019
Wednesday 4:36 pm
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What a confusing post.
>> No. 19290 Anonymous
15th May 2019
Wednesday 6:39 pm
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>That almost certainly isn't how an absence of net neutrality will work in the US at all
No, it almost certainly is how it will work. We know this because it's already happened.
>> No. 19301 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 7:31 am
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That graph has literally nothing to do with what was claimed. There is a difference so obvious I shouldn't have to explain between throttling content speed, and blocking it and either only supplying preferred partners or charging a premium to let the content through at all.

I don't know honestly how you can prove exactly what you just quoted correct whilst claiming the opposite. Why are you so insecure about someone saying you are wrong?
>> No. 19302 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 9:29 am
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Exactly. Throttling isn't blocking. Throttling is just the inconvenience of content not loading fast enough, blocking is, well, blocking. Even if it's just so you will fork over additional money to have something unblocked.
>> No. 19306 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 2:02 pm
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They weren't even throttling, they just had inadequate network capacity. The speed went up because Netflix did a deal with Comcast to create direct links between their networks, bypassing Comcast's overloaded links to the wider internet. Netflix complained because Comcast charged them for these private links, but content distribution networks like Akamai and CloudFlare were already paying for similar arrangements. Everything was slow on Comcast, but Netflix wanted a special first-class service and didn't want to pay for it.

>> No. 19307 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 5:14 pm
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>Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Verizon, and AT&T have all refused to hook their data centers up to Netflix's servers without payment from the video streaming service.
There are two ways to get your network hooked up to another. This arrangement of getting direct links to exchange traffic is called peering. The other network agrees to carry your traffic in return for you carrying theirs. The other way to do it is transit, where you pay the other network to carry your traffic. Comcast basically demanded an arrangement where they got to act like peers but Netflix still paid for transit. Throw in that Comcast owns NBC and Hulu and the motivations become a little clearer. An awful lot of backsliding on the internet has come about from consolidation between comms and media, and the inherent conflicts of interest that come with it.
>> No. 19311 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 6:16 pm
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The argument was that peering with Netflix isn't a traditional peering arrangement, because the traffic flow is effectively unidirectional. They're not joining up two networks for their mutual benefit, they're building an express lane for a massive data hog. We can debate the merits of that argument, but it isn't prima facie wrong.
>> No. 19315 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 6:41 pm
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>They're not joining up two networks for their mutual benefit
How is it not to Comcast's benefit to provide their customers with a better connection to a service that evidently a significant number of them make significant use of?
>> No. 19317 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 7:07 pm
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They don't give a shit about their customers.
>> No. 19318 Anonymous
16th May 2019
Thursday 10:14 pm
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In many places in Seppoland, there is only one broadband provider; they often use litigation to enforce their monopoly.


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