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>> No. 26516 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 9:48 am
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...It is important to state that it is not communities that commit crimes but individuals. Those convicted are squarely Henry Long, Albert Bowers and Jessie Cole, not thousands of innocent people who share their heritage. Tarring all Travellers with the brush of these men’s callousness is as unfair as tarring all Catholics for paedophile priests or all eskimos for daft militant wog attacks.

Yet to completely ignore the cultural context of this crime is wrong. Henry Long, the ringleader, was removed from school at the age of 12; he followed his father and grandfather into the thieving “trade”. Albert Bowers left school at 11 and before the trial had already picked up three youth convictions. These young men could not read or write. For years they had not known school or structure. Their education was in petty crime.

Such problems do not solely beset Travellers but they are far more prevalent among Traveller communities. If we want to be a country where all are treated the same, where all live by the same rules and where the state does its best to furnish each with a decent chance in life, we have to end the squeamishness that prevents open talk about Travellers. This squeamishness is down to two fears. First, the fear of retribution. After the verdict on PC Harper’s death it emerged that the judge, Mr Justice Edis, brought the first trial to a temporary halt over an alleged potential plot to intimidate jurors. Extra security measures were brought in. Jurors were referred to by number not name. One juror was dismissed for acting oddly in court, mouthing pleasantries at the defendants. Whether she was motivated by misplaced friendliness or fear of someone up in that public gallery we do not know, but most will not be shocked by revelations of intimidation.

The fear of the bullet, the knife, the burnt-out car; this helps the lawless elements of Traveller culture maintain a certain power, and gives the law-abiding majority of Travellers a terrible name.

The second fear is that of being labelled racist. Since the Equality Act 2010 recognised Gypsy, Roma and Travellers as ethnic minorities, race has been used to shield this culture from due scrutiny. Sensible questions about why those within these groups are more likely to be in prison, more likely to be illiterate or more likely to suffer domestic violence prompt cries of racism. In April a Channel 4 Dispatches programme titled The Truth About Traveller Crime was dubbed “dehumanising” by activists and investigated by Ofcom. Desperate not to offend, the authorities turn a culturally sensitive blind eye.

The fears hush most into silence, and the silence means the stand-off between Travellers and the rest of society continues uneasily. Many feel disquieted to see the mobile homes rolling on to a local beauty spot, a portent too often of littering, mess, anti-social behaviour. Meanwhile those in Traveller communities are hardly “living their best lives”. Travellers die about ten years earlier than the rest of us. They have higher rates of chronic illness. Their suicide rates are six times higher.

You might argue that they choose to live like this, but the babies born into that life don’t. Many are destined to repeat the same pattern: leave school in your early teens, drift into a life of odd jobs and petty crime, never move beyond the circles you were raised in. As long as the culturally sensitive force-field exists around Travellers, these children are abandoned to a fate that should not be tolerated in 21st-century Britain.

It is a scandal that some Gypsy and Traveller children are taken out of school at primary age; that some start work as young as ten; that about 65 per cent of Traveller children are persistently absent from school; that they have the lowest attainment of all ethnic groups throughout their school years and are far more likely to be excluded. Are we to be surprised when they choose crime?

The status quo is not working for anyone.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/lets-not-be-afraid-to-challenge-traveller-culture-hbj3f8mkz

It seems about every two or three years gypos become the boogeyman of the moment in the national press. What's to be done about the travelling menace?
Expand all images.
>> No. 26517 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 9:57 am
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>>26516
>What's to be done about the travelling menace?

Integrate them into society, starting with getting the children into school, then into stable jobs and a fixed residences.
But that's not an easy task.
>> No. 26518 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 10:36 am
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Weird how it's difficult for travellers to keep their kids in school when local councils keep kicking them off their camp sites.

>>26517
You could substitute "Indoctrinate" for "Integrate" there and it wouldn't change a thing about it.
>> No. 26519 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 11:33 am
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This sort of shit was just as unacceptable when Sarah Champion wrote it about laplanderstani men in The S*n.
>> No. 26520 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 11:38 am
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Oh it's Clare Foges. She has form on this kind of racism, previous pieces for The Times include "Travellers have ignored the law for too long" in 2017, and "Travellers can't always play the racism card" in 2019. It's pretty vile.
>> No. 26521 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 12:13 pm
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>>26518
You could also change it to "induce" or "induct" because that's how verbs work.
>> No. 26522 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 12:17 pm
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>>26520
>Travellers have ignored the law for too long

Haven't they? It might be an unpleasant thing to say, but that doesn't mean it's incorrect.
>> No. 26523 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 12:19 pm
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>>26518

>Weird how it's difficult for travellers to keep their kids in school when local councils keep kicking them off their camp sites.

That isn't why they are leaving schools and you know it, don't twist things to fit your pattern of 'oh those poor suffering souls they can't help it'.

The problem is cultural, their culture is incompatable with values you take for granted and assume to be universal. They set themselves upto be an underclass by making all the decisions that will lead them to be an underclass. The cycle is difficult to break and it certainly won't be broken by complaining that it is our fault for not letting them break into squat on school fields and construction sites.
>> No. 26524 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 12:31 pm
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It's crabs in buckets isn't it?
>> No. 26525 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 12:35 pm
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>>26523
In my experience it tends to be those who haven't really encountered gypsies much in real life who tend to defend them.

It always reminds me of the opinion piece in the Guardian romanticising them, saying you can't really blame them for breaking the law with the way they are treated, after there were issues with travellers in Cromer a few years back. It then emerged that they were responsible for numerous thefts and even rape, but they're still the victims in all of this.
>> No. 26526 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 12:38 pm
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>>26523

This exact argument is used against multiple groups and has been employed throughout history almost verbatim, e.g. "Why don't black people in the U.S. just stop committing crimes?"
>> No. 26527 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 1:00 pm
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>>26523
Piss off Priti.
>> No. 26528 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 1:20 pm
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>>26526
>Why don't Somalians stop sending their daughters to have their genitals mutilated?

>Why don't Russians stop being so homophobic and intolerant?

>Why don't laplanderstanis stop forcing their daughters to marry adult men they've never met?

Sometimes you've simply got to point out that aspects of another culture are just plain wrong and it doesn't make you racist to point this out.
>> No. 26529 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 1:24 pm
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>>26526
Just because that argument was used incorrectly or unfairly in some cases, that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it's valid in this case.
>> No. 26530 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 1:28 pm
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>>26526
'This' exact argument certainly isn't. Given I'm not arguing against helping them, I am arguing about having no understanding of their behaviour and not understanding the root of the problem, seeing a reaction and complaining the reaction is the problem, but thanks for demonstrating where I can classify your view Dunning–Kruger lad.


Travelers (by which I mean the parents of the not attending children) don't put any value on education they don't see why it matters, that stuff in school isn't applicable to how to make money so it isn't worth doing. why would they waste their time with school (which actually costs them money to send the kids to, and roots them in a place which is inconvenient for them) when the kids could be learning and applying the skills of the trade in fact there are certain trades a child is better for, and that cycle repeats generationally and is normalised. This isn't a case of being neglected, this is a case of rejecting the same opportunities everyone else has.
>> No. 26531 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 1:30 pm
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Where have I heard all this before?
>> No. 26533 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 1:49 pm
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>>26531

No one think they should be exterminated lad, they think they don't see the value in the system.

If we did nothing when faced with different cultures Indians would still be burning women alive.
>> No. 26534 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 2:03 pm
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>>26533

Oh yes because taking away and forcibly re-educating all the children of a minority group is a totally different, not at all fascist thing to do.
>> No. 26536 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 2:27 pm
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Really the state should pay for a small portable school to follow them around.
>> No. 26537 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 2:33 pm
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>>26534
Every September thousands of four year olds are taken from their parents and forced into the education system.

It's a wonder nobody has spoken out against this burning injustice.
>> No. 26538 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 2:34 pm
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Only in the UK could we have such a meek response to a roaming gang of criminals. They should be bullied out of the country.
>> No. 26541 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:00 pm
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>>26537

People have.
>> No. 26542 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:10 pm
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>>26530
>Travelers...

There's a few questions to separate out, here. First, what are you basing these opinions on? Data regarding low educational attainment among traveler kids, or something else?

Depending on the basis for your opinion, I'd probably also ask: to what extent can this be described as discrimination in or alienation from our current system?

Then there's another question, how far should society go in accommodating marginalised groups? Where does support stop and assimilation begin?

None of the answers to these questions are at all obvious, and apply differently depending on the situation. For example, I'm not a cultural relativist and believe genital mutilation is an infringement of human rights. Certain practices are not acceptable regardless of cultural belief. What I was getting at with my first post is that there's structural issues at play here -- there's far more to it than just the morality of individual actors. It's more productive to address those than to generalise the motivations or predispositions of an entire group.
>> No. 26544 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:36 pm
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>>26542
Isn't it also a human right that people shouldn't be denied an education? If you're removed from school at the age of 11/12, unable to read or write, in order to join the family vocation then that sounds like a breach to me.
>> No. 26545 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:38 pm
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The thing you have to ask yourself with pik travellers is why, exactly, they insist on maintaining their nomadic lifestyle.

They have their traditions, they have their way of life, obviously. Which is the problem. With travellers, it is not just an unfortunate side effect of cultural difference that leads them into conflict with the laws of our land. Their culture is in conflict with the laws of our land.

A lot of people are too wet to grapple with a concept like this these days, but most of those people are hypocrites too. Compare and contrast how those same people feel about the inherent thuggishness of British council estate residents, or American "trailer trash" rednecks. You'll usually find complete and utter disdain.
>> No. 26546 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:41 pm
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When travellers turned up on a green space across from a supermarket near me last year, the supermarket actually hired a doorman until the travellers were moved on. It struck me as quite an aggressive move, but maybe they had their reasons.
>> No. 26547 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:46 pm
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>>26546

Have you ever had the pleasure of working in a retail establishment when travellers show up?

The first day you might not do much, because being a good person you'll want to think "Maybe they're alright, maybe they're not the thieving bastards they're made out to be." You'll keep your eye out but mostly think it's okay.

Then you look at your stock variance report, and you give a heavy sigh, before telling your staff to kick them out immediately on sight.
>> No. 26548 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:52 pm
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>>26545

>Their culture is in conflict with the laws of our land.
So? Doesn't make the law right. If you ring-fence off all the land, claim it belongs to you, make hunting and trapping for game on it illegal (and kill off most of the game either directly or by destroying the habitats) and create licensing laws as well as delivery systems that make it impossible for people to survive by simple trading then yes, if you criminalise someone's way of life then they'll be criminals. But that's you being the cunt there, not them. Thing is, it's not you that did it, is it? Most of the land belongs to corporations, or is leased by them from the crown estate. Then Ms Patel comes along and tells us it's them gyppos wot want to nick your TV because they're evil non-conformist scum. And people believe her.

>Compare and contrast this irrelevant straw man
Nah.
>> No. 26549 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:54 pm
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>>26534

>forcibly re-educating all the children of a minority group is a totally different

You have to be educated to be re-educated.
>> No. 26550 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:57 pm
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>>26546
Gyspies moved into a business park I used to work at, breaking the barriers into the car park they set up in over the weekend. The kids in particular were feral monsters, vandalising cars, threatening people, taking rubbish out of the bins to empty it everywhere, shitting in the open in the car park, but even the adults would do things like getting their dogs to chase people going into their respective workplaces.

When the rozzers eventually moved them on they were talking to the women, all in their pyjamas, who were treating that like an every day event. Before leaving they pulled up most of the landscaping and threw it around the car park; it was a right state.

Whenever gyspies set up camp where I live there is always an increase in petty crime.
>> No. 26551 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 3:57 pm
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>>26548

So what are you saying, we make gyppo reservations, like the Yanks have for Native Americans?

Fucking hell you're a proper horseshoe case you aren't you.
>> No. 26552 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 4:06 pm
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>>26548

Nobody believes it because Ms Patel has said it, you fucking drip. People believe it because they, unlike you, have actually encountered a traveller group first hand at some point in their lives.

There are seriously no words for the kind of naive, sheltered, gullible worldview that lets you think of the traveller community as an unfairly victimised minority.
>> No. 26553 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 4:15 pm
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>>26545
>Compare and contrast how those same people feel about the inherent thuggishness of British council estate residents, or American "trailer trash" rednecks. You'll usually find complete and utter disdain.

This is actually a brilliant point, and I think you're probably right about many people who would call themselves "left", "centre left", "liberal", or whatever else.

Personally, I'm coming at it from the direction of someone from an immigrant working class background. I'm very hesitant to paint any group with broad strokes, "they don't want to learn" or "they commit more crime". There's often very good reasons baked into our institutions why these things happen.

>>26544

A quick Google shows that yes, it's part of the Universal Declaration.

What if our school system doesn't accommodate, though? Where does the burden lie? Remember most people in this country rely state schools.
>> No. 26555 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 4:28 pm
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>>26551

No, I don't think "reservations" are exactly fair to the Native Americans either. Seeing as it was all their land until some cunts stole it then decided they wanted to impose their own law on someone else.

>>26552

Yeah I wondered how long it would take you to double-down on the anecdotal evidence angle.
>> No. 26556 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 4:42 pm
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>>26553

>What if our school system doesn't accommodate, though? Where does the burden lie? Remember most people in this country rely state schools.

Our school system bends over backwards to cater to the particular needs of travellers, but there's only so much you can do when a) parents are actively hostile to education and b) it's politically unpalatable to actually enforce the laws requiring attendance.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/181669/DFE-RR043.pdf
>> No. 26558 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 4:44 pm
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>>26553
>This is actually a brilliant point, and I think you're probably right about many people who would call themselves "left", "centre left", "liberal", or whatever else.
It's not a brilliant point, it's a straw man. "You can't tell me not to criticise gypsies because there are people out there who would defend the gypsies but be hypocritical and criticise other disadvantaged groups". No doubt there are people like that, so what? It has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
>> No. 26562 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 5:17 pm
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The government should just make living in a caravan or trailer park on a permanent basis legal. Eventually gyppo/traveller culture will be watered down by regular people who want to escape rent or mortgage slavery through caravan living.
>> No. 26564 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 5:33 pm
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>>26545

>it is not just an unfortunate side effect of cultural difference that leads them into conflict with the laws of our land. Their culture is in conflict with the laws of our land.

That certainly sounds convincing until you remember that the 'law of the land' they are most directly and commonly in conflict with is "you're not allowed to live in a caravan all year round".
>> No. 26566 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 5:42 pm
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How come nomadic lifestyles are fine and dandy and mainstream thousands of years ago, now they're suddenly seen as something to suppress. One rule for stone age man, another for the rest of us.
>> No. 26569 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 5:52 pm
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>>26566

No one has a problem with nomadic lifestyles, the problem is breaking onto other peoples land treating it like shit using your children as a cheep source of labour and raising them to be thick as pig shit the two don't go hand in hand.
>> No. 26571 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 5:54 pm
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>>26566
Most nomads practise pastoralism whereby they herd livestock with them. Pikeys, on the other hand, make a living from thieving. You may see them chaining up a mistreated looking horse, but their livelihood doesn't depend on it.
>> No. 26572 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 5:58 pm
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>>26569

>cheep
>thick as pig shit

D'ya like dags?
>> No. 26573 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:08 pm
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>>26564
And the 'laws of the land' relating to thieving, littering and anti-social behaviour? What about those?
>> No. 26574 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:08 pm
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>>26523
>The problem is cultural, their culture is incompatable with values you take for granted and assume to be universal. They set themselves upto be an underclass by making all the decisions that will lead them to be an underclass. The cycle is difficult to break and it certainly won't be broken by complaining that it is our fault for not letting them break into squat on school fields and construction sites.

This seems to go both ways.

I used to know an ex-gypsy (his words) who was ostracised by his family for settling down, he was illiterate as far as I could tell and had nothing but disdain for the life he was forced to grow into. You're more or less fucked if you're born a gypsy and when I first found out his background he made sure to tell me he won't steal. At the same time, it's pretty obvious that the playground is an unsafe place for gypsy children given even the parents and teachers will make them feel unwelcome. Essentially there's a reason so many small businessmen with gypsy backgrounds keep it hidden because nobody would deal with them otherwise.

I think that ultimately gypsies of both types can't thrive in Europe - there's just too much historical bad blood. We should just offer to swap them with America for Latinos, for some reason gypsies aren't a problem in North America. If some KKK types complain we can always tell them that they're white and discriminated against by rural landowners. Plus we can start unbuttoning our shirts and other stereotypical Latino things.
>> No. 26575 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:19 pm
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>>26573

You think gypsy culture is littering and robbing?
>> No. 26576 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:20 pm
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>>26575
There's also vandalism.
>> No. 26577 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:22 pm
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>>26569
>other peoples land
You seem to not be able to see the wood for the trees.

>>26571
Where exactly would travelling communities let their livestock graze?
>> No. 26578 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:31 pm
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>>26577 Are you saying that travellers are being kept from the nomadic herding lifestyle they desire and deserve?

Is this a viewpoint expressed by actual travellers?
Are they shitting up the places they stop at as retaliation?
>> No. 26579 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 6:35 pm
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>>26575
It's obviously not an part of their culture by design as much as it's a by-product of the interaction between their culture and other cultures. None of which excuses it, of course.
>> No. 26580 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 7:06 pm
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>>26579 here, that last bit looks way too accusatory and uncalled for - I guess I was trying to say that just although you can frame it like that it's unfair to heap the blame onto the other cultures for not being accommodating to cases of robbery and vandalism. But I'm shit with words.
>> No. 26581 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 8:06 pm
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>>26578

No, I'm just pointing out it's a stupid thing to say.
>> No. 26583 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 8:45 pm
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The oppression of travelling communities is part and parcel of the loss of ownership in common over the past few centuries. Capitalism has carved up our land and granted the rights to it for the pursuit of profit only with otherwise limited permitted residential and recreational use.
>> No. 26584 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 9:06 pm
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>>26583
They don't want to hear it, they're just frothing at the piss-slits to punch down at someone.
>> No. 26586 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 9:19 pm
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>>26584

I'm a card carrying council estate raised leftie, and even I can admit that a) the land owner ship has LONG since sailed, and b) pikeys are all thieving bastards.

Maybe they wouldn't be thieving bastards without years of oppression or whatever, but the fact remains, they are. As for common land ownership or whatever, fucking hell, you might as well be talking about colonising Mars.

Nobody is saying its right or fair or just that pikeys have ended up in this situation, but you've about as much chance of telling the wind politely to stop blowing as you have of solving the problem with your perspective and rhetoric.
>> No. 26587 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 9:28 pm
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>>26586

I'm not trying to solve it with rhetoric. Just pointing out, as I'm not the first to, that even otherwise card-carrying progressive lefties in this country have a blind spot where it comes to just being racist about travellers.
>> No. 26588 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 9:48 pm
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>>26587

The point, however, is that the things you consider racism about them are merely acknowledgements of fact. OP's post is a rare example of the Mail, like a broken calendar, being right once a year.

I'm the lad who pointed out the second bit in the first place. My point being that nobody has an issue cross-examining the cultural issues that might make council estate lads more prone to a bit of a scrap at the weekend; but when it comes to travellers and the way their entire way of live is built around basically being roaming criminals suddenly they're the victims. We're much more prone to excusing it, because travellers are on the special list of special people, alongside muzzers and darkies.

At this point, we've basically no hope of reversing the established order of society where you have a house and you pay tax and all that stuff, whether you think it's a just state of affairs or not. It'd be fair to say the majority of people have their issues with it, in fact. But I'd still say we're better off trying to integrate traveller communities into society, than just excusing their lifestyle and handwaving complaints as racism.
>> No. 26591 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 10:03 pm
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>>26588
>the things you consider racism about them are merely acknowledgements of fact
I'm not sure how suggesting forcibly indoctrinating their children or deporting all of them are "acknowledgements of fact", both of which have been floated in this thread, one of them repeatedly.
>My point being that nobody has an issue cross-examining the cultural issues that might make council estate lads more prone to a bit of a scrap at the weekend; but when it comes to travellers
Again, this is that same straw man from earlier.
>At this point, we've basically no hope of reversing the established order of society
I don't know about "reversing" but major upheaval is looking more and more likely.
>handwaving complaints as racism.
This is back to the first point where what you're calling "complaints" are people outright advocating for the same policies as the Nazis.
>> No. 26593 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 10:06 pm
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>>26591

I don't think you understand the first thing about what you're talking about. You appear to be the kind of person who has been educated on politics by the dodgier subrudgwicksteamshow.co.uks and Twitter.
>> No. 26594 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 10:08 pm
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>>26593

That's cool, you appear to be the kind of person who was educated on politics by a magical sentient kinder egg wrapper. This is a really constructive and meaningful discourse.
>> No. 26596 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 10:17 pm
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>>26591
What do you want?
>> No. 26597 Anonymous
27th July 2020
Monday 10:18 pm
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>>26596
More ketchup
>> No. 26609 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 1:53 am
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What's the difference between travellers, gyppos, and pikeys?
>> No. 26610 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 1:55 am
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I work with a traveller charity, so I'll type up a few observations, in no particular order, in case anyone is interested. (I can only speak about travellers in England, some of this is no doubt applicable to Irish travellers etc but I wouldn't know.)

Going in, I didn't know anything about travellers beyond what the press occasionally reports. Like most people I understood that they were, by choice, extremely isolated, but I assumed that there was some degree of overlap and intermingling with the society around them. Apparently not - recent research has shown that their genetic history can be traced more or less directly back to India/SE Asia, around ~700 years ago. When they say they only marry within the community, they mean it, and they've been at it a long time.

That doesn't mean that nobody ever leaves, of course. The sharper among them clearly realise early on that their best hope for a comparatively comfortable life is to get educated, get a job and get a home outside the community. But anyone who marries outside of the community is ostracised, and once you're out, there's no getting back in. This is, as you'd expect, a massive brain drain on the community. As they actively stigmatise those who make something of themselves and broaden their horizons, the traveller community effectively expel their best and brightest with each passing generation. They would come at it from a different angle: had their culture not been so aggressively isolationist then it would've been assimilated long ago. From an outsider's perspective, though, they do seem to be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

If you've never been to a traveller site it will be a shock, the squalor is difficult to put into words. It's one thing to watch it in Snatch or on some trashy ITV documentary, but it's something else altogether to see it first hand, to turn off a well maintained country road and onto a garbage patch with people living on it. I've seen some pretty rough housing estates, I used to live in Stoke for fuck's sake, but nothing else I've seen in Britain compares to the traveller sites. Nobody should be living in this degree of poverty anywhere, much less in a modern Western democracy, but here we are.

Hard manual labour, particularly fruit and vegetable picking, has historically been their bread and butter. The work available to them had apparently been on the wane through the late 20th century, but around the turn of the century the ex-soviet states that entered the EU really opened the floodgates of cheap manual labour in Britain, and farmers will always pick a Pole over a pikey. Which is where we end up today - an unskilled, largely illiterate, wholly isolated community that has no work available to them. Of course they turn to crime.

>In my experience it tends to be those who haven't really encountered gypsies much in real life who tend to defend them.
I'm not sure I'd jump to defend them - in any case, nobody can deny that they are often their own worst enemy, prideful and quick to anger, and accustomed to sorting disputes with violence. Someone above called it a cultural problem, and that's definitely true, but it doesn't really get you anywhere to say it. It's easy to identify their shortcomings, you're spoiled for choice. It's a lot harder to see a productive forward path. It's true that traveller culture does not particularly value reading or writing, this is a significant shortcoming and it really holds them back. Dig a little further and you'll find that many of them realise that in the smartphone era they are hopelessly marginalised without literacy, but they only reach this awareness once it's too late to go back to school. Obviously I'm biased, but I'd say that one small example of progress is the adult schooling provided by the charity I work for, which generally takes place at night (it's seen as shameful for adult travellers to be seen accepting such help, especially from outside the community, so classes have to be held discretely). I never hear about it and nobody ever talks about it. No doubt it's slow progress, but overall things are improving. Depending on how strictly you define literacy, about 50% of traveller women are illiterate, with things a little better among the lads, but not much. Fifty years ago, that figure was closer to 90% for both.

>>26530
>which actually costs them money to send the kids to, and roots them in a place which is inconvenient for them
One of the most common misconceptions is that travellers live on the road. They'll make a scene about getting in their old horse-drawn carriage and meeting up across the country (a big deal in the traveller world), and they'll certainly travel to new places for work, but most don't live as itinerants day to day; "traveller" is their heritage more so than their function.

(I'd guess that the ones that do just bounce from place to place are the ones that have been kicked out of, or otherwise barred, from every traveller site in the country, the worst of the worst, hence stuff like >>26550.)

I think some people get confused between Roma-descended travellers and new age travellers, I know I did as a younglad. Roma gypsies fucking hate new age travellers. Given the liberal, peace-loving sensibilities of the latter, I doubt there was ever any love lost from the the gypsy community, but in particular the Thatcher/Major Conservative government crackdowns in the 80s and 90s (the Criminal Justice Act and so on) is perceived to have been targeting the hippies, with the Roma community being collateral damage. There's probably some truth to it.

>>26588
>I'd still say we're better off trying to integrate traveller communities into society
In case it isn't obvious from the above, the issue is that many of them they will resist such integration to their dying breath. Partly this is because they know no better, but a lot of it is a simple consequence of the extraordinary racism they experience day to day, surely unparalleled in this country. For evidence, just look at this thread. The mods around here are broadly left-leaning and tolerant, and they usually ban racists. Imagine that some previous posters in this thread had instead written the following:
>I think that ultimately Jews can't thrive in Europe - there's just too much historical bad blood. We should just offer to swap them with America for Latinos, for some reason Jews aren't a problem in North America. If some KKK types complain we can always tell them that they're white and discriminated against by rural landowners.
or
>blacks are all thieving bastards
I think we all know how that would go.

(Fucking hell, that's a much bigger post than I intended. There's a bit more to say, particularly about how rough the women have it, oh well. I'll try and answer questions if anyone has any, though.)
>> No. 26611 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 1:57 am
26611 spacer
>>26609
I asked two of them, and the response I got back from one was that "traveller" was an insult and they wanted to be called "gypsy", and the other that "gypsy" was an insult and they'd only respond to "traveller". It's quite possible they were fucking with me.

Pikey is an insult.
>> No. 26612 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 2:10 am
26612 spacer
>>26610
Roma and Sinti, right? I, frankly thankfully, don't have to deal with them anymore. It's telling that similar stories are told not just in the UK but all across modern Europe. I don't know the history everywhere, but maybe I need to do a wiki walk to see why the fuck these guys seem to be more default hated than "The Jews".
>> No. 26613 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 3:02 am
26613 spacer
>>26610

I think a broad part of the issue, and this is why it's something that's so hard to get to grips with, is that the anti-traveller racism has a different dynamic to most racism.

Saying all blacks are criminals is one thing, but the primary defining aspect of it is that it's not true. Pick out any random black off the street, and the likelihood is he's not a criminal, and that's why you're a racist for assuming it. But when it comes to travellers, like it or not- There's a bloody good chance they've done something illegal recently. Like someone above said, it is their way of life- That's not a judgement or a condemnation of them, and it's of course an incredibly deep and complex issue as to why, but nevertheless.

I guess what I'm getting towards is this: How do we grapple with racism that has more than just a grain of truth to it? It's still racism, no doubt, but how do we delegitimise it when it's arguably kind of legitimate? And if we can get past that, ARE there really any practical solutions? If they don't want to accept outside help, what are we to do?
>> No. 26614 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 11:22 am
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>>26610
Thanks for this, post of the year.
>> No. 26616 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 11:28 am
26616 spacer
I should add to my praise above for >>26610 that when travellers turn up locally on a park or something and they get abuse in the local press and eviction orders from the council, I've always considered going along and knocking on the door of one of their caravans and having a chat with them and showing them not everyone considers them beneath contempt. But your post has painted them as so hostile to outsiders it's now made me think I'd be walking into Deliverance.
>> No. 26617 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 11:32 am
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>>26558

The conversation has moved on, but just to clarify, I didn't think it was a good justifiaction to criticise. Like I said, I come from the opposite direction, that generally criticism of poor people based on moral judgements of their character aren't useful.

The brilliant point is that this is deemed broadly acceptable when it's targeted toward certain groups, even on the "left", and that does reveal their hypocrisy. Think about how disparaging people are towards "chavs", for example.
>> No. 26618 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 11:35 am
26618 spacer
>>26616

Not charitylad, but I think it's more that some groups are treated with so much hostility that they'd be rightly suspicious of anyone outside claiming good intentions.
>> No. 26619 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 12:01 pm
26619 spacer
Why is it that the jippos I see just look like your average white Brit? How are they are ethnic group? I know the Roma ones are not that, but I thought they were more prevalent on the continent. I'm not trying to stir shit, just genuinely wondering.
>> No. 26620 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 12:15 pm
26620 spacer
>>26546
Oh fuck that explains why there is suddenly a security guard at the Co-op down the road. I thought it was to do with Covid, I didn't twig that it was connected to the caravans on the park opposite.
>> No. 26621 Anonymous
28th July 2020
Tuesday 12:33 pm
26621 spacer
>>26619
Genetically speaking, they're distinctly different from the settled Irish population. This is most likely the result of generations of inbreeding within the community.
>> No. 26636 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 10:27 am
26636 spacer

NINTCHDBPICT000598614163.jpg
266362663626636
Gypo kids attack and racially abuse children's entertainers dressed up as Paw Patrol at a four year old's birthday party.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12251148/paw-patrol-entertained-abused-hostage-kids/
>> No. 26637 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 10:47 am
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>>26636
First a times article and now a sun article? You really are spoiling us.
>> No. 26638 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 10:49 am
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>>26637
Pikeys are are the target of silly season this year, what with outrage over PC Harper’s killers getting away with murder.
>> No. 26640 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 11:08 am
26640 spacer
Why is it all the first hand accounts in this thread are ones of people who seem to distrust travelers, and all of the posts defending them seem to mention no first hand experience? I'd like to hear at least one positive first hand experience from the 'saying they are criminals is genocide' camp.
>> No. 26642 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 11:23 am
26642 spacer
>>26640
It's just the way these things go in general. It's a bit like when you have someone living in a middle class suburb that is almost exclusively white lecturing working class people on how they need to be more tolerant of immigrants when the demographics of their neighbourhood has changed beyond recognition in the past 15 years.

How people think they'd like to act around certain groups of people never really gets put to the test. I believe there were posts in our homeless thread about how people's attitudes towards them hardened and changed completely once they lived near a shelter and had to regularly deal with their intoxicated antics.
>> No. 26644 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 11:57 am
26644 spacer
>>26640
"Distrust" is a funny word for "think we should round up and brainwash all the children of". I'm guessing it's mainly because you want it to be that way and are inferring it's true to try and justify being racist.
>> No. 26645 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 12:48 pm
26645 spacer
>>26644

"I'd like to hear from the otherside, do they have any positive stories?"

"I bet you would you filthy fucking racist!"
>> No. 26646 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 12:57 pm
26646 spacer
>>26644
Brainwash is about as loaded a term as pikey.

Yet again - what do you want? Can anything be done to improve the lot of the next generation? Should anything be done? Should non-travellers butt out and leave them to it? Do non-travellers have obligations to traveller kids that override their community's wishes?
What the fuck?
>> No. 26647 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:04 pm
26647 spacer
>>26640
Think it's going to entirely depend, like when you meet most people. Personally, they can be pricks, some can be alright, you can get along with them. Do like the bare knuckle boxing too to be honest.
>> No. 26648 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:05 pm
26648 spacer
>>26640>>26642

The guy who works with travellers for a charity expressed mixed feelings at best, and explicitly said treating this as a problem of their culture doesn't get you anywhere. Any opinions expressed here also come with the caveat that we're an odd sample of only a few hundred (or more?) people on an imageboard. I am certain you can find people who have regular direct contact with minority groups that both praise and criticise said groups.

Even with that in mind, what are you trying to prove, exactly? Distrust of travellers is rational if you live with them for a long time?

To answer your question, a few potential explanations come to mind. For one, compassion fatigue is a fairly well studied phenomenon that affects people in job roles that require a high level of empathy. It's common among nurses and doctors, and it may help to explain why some go on to abuse and neglect patients.

Another more general explanation is that we all have to relate to others in a particular framework or setting, e.g. the quality of your workplace can affect how well you get along with your colleagues. If that framework is dysfunctional, it's much harder to develop good relationships. Speaking as someone that worked for a deeply flawed charity aimed at another 'vulnerable' group, I've experienced first-hand how running up against the limits of your organisational role, as well as sheer stress, can make you much more cynical towards people you're trying to help.

Something similar can be said of living conditions in neighbourhoods. If you happen to live in a rough area, we don't tend to see the bigger schema of things at play like unemployment or deprivation, we just know when the neighbours are acting up again. If enough of your neighbours look a particular way, we start forming connections, justified or not.

As a more general political point, our general culture is extremely individualistic in a way that a) makes us blind to the scope and limits we set on people by circumstances, and b) makes a group with a very strong sense of separate identity seem alien to us.

Personal responsibility exists, yeah, and I wouldn't defend people committing crime or refusing to send their kids to school, but all things happen within a context. The statistic that stands out to me about the OP post is that life expectancy is ten years shorter and suicide rates are six times higher. That leads me to think that there are serious issues in that group, probably tangled up with history and politics, that requires a lot of thought, co-ordinated effort, and funding to solve.
>> No. 26649 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:09 pm
26649 spacer
>>26648
>we're an odd sample of only a few hundred (or more?) people on an imageboard.

If there's more than a dozen regular posters I'd be surprised.
>> No. 26651 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:21 pm
26651 spacer
>>26649
This was probably ages ago now but wasn't the userbase clocked around 100 once? Though that was inflated by people just passing by, I think. Active posters wise it's probably still just us 3.
>> No. 26653 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:27 pm
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>>26646

I just want you lot to realise that you're being massive racists but so far you're just defending yourselves with links to The Sun.
>> No. 26654 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:27 pm
26654 spacer
>>26648

>what are you trying to prove, exactly? Distrust of travellers is rational if you live with them for a long time?

What I am trying to prove is far more basic than that, I would like someone to say something positive about them, anything at all to balance the conversation. I assume they exist so I would like to hear them.

The fact you and the other lad have accused me of having a secret racist agenda for asking for what should be a rather basic request that could balance the thread and share positive experiences, says more about you than it does about me.

I don't want equivocation about compassion fatigue, or how we are apparently a large enough group to have negative stories but not a large enough group to have positive stories. I want one positive first hand relationship with a traveller. This won't be a 'no true Scotsman' or a gotcha (although they must be 'a traveller' no their grandfather was a traveller) I would like to hear about that.
.
>> No. 26655 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:45 pm
26655 spacer
>>26654

The reason you're lacking positive stories about travellers is that they're only described as travellers when they've done something bad. In much the same way you wouldn't have heard white Americans talking about polite young black fellas back in the lynching days - theor colour only becomes relevant when they've done something that conforms to your expectations of them.
>> No. 26656 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:47 pm
26656 spacer
>>26653
I am a massive racist.
When travellers park up on the industrial estate where I work, I expect damage, squalor and abuse until they leave.
If travellers are a race, then this is something I only expect of that race. If any other people rocked up in a camper van, I'd expect them to do whatever they're doing without causing harm, then leave. It doesn't happen, though, so I have no idea if my expectations are unfair.
My prejudices about the travellers I come into contact with seem to be reasonably accurate so far. Hence the racism.
I'm not sure how I can not be racist. Help me understand your point of view.

(A good day to you Sir!)
>> No. 26657 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:48 pm
26657 spacer
>>26655

Additional I've met a few travellers through 4x4 winching and greenlaning events, they were all lovely, usually very funny. But I don't see how an anecdote helps anyone.
>> No. 26658 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:49 pm
26658 spacer
>>26654
Secret? Not at all. Priti Patel has been banging on about how they're all terrible all year, now the red tops have started their smear campaign and all of a sudden we're having this thread. It's quite tediously predictable. Anecdotal evidence wouldn't be valid in any other situation, why should it be now?
>> No. 26659 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:50 pm
26659 spacer
>>26654
In primary school my best friend's parents were travellers who moved into a council house when he was born. He and his family are lovely people. They play in bands a lot, and help run festivals. If you met them you wouldnt think they used to live in a van.
>> No. 26660 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:52 pm
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>>26659
What should we call travellers who don't travel?
>> No. 26661 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:55 pm
26661 spacer
>>26655

That isn't a positive story that is the equivocation of someone who doesn't have one, and is affraid no one else does.
>> No. 26662 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:57 pm
26662 spacer
>>26657 >>26659

Thank you.
>> No. 26663 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 1:57 pm
26663 spacer
>>26657

>But I don't see how an anecdote helps anyone.

It humanises them.
>> No. 26664 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 2:11 pm
26664 spacer
>>26663
They're already humans.
>> No. 26665 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 2:22 pm
26665 spacer
>>26654

I have no interest in labelling anyone a racist. I was specific in what I meant by "compassion fatigue" and how hard it can be to keep up empathy for others, or how circumstances can lead us to associate characteristics with groups of people rather than the issues they face.

Saying a particular group is more likely to commit crime due to unemployment, or charity workers might burn out due to constantly running into the same issues, isn't equivocation.

I also didn't say that the number of posters here is "large enough to have negative stories but too small to have positive stories", what I said was:
>I am certain you can find people who have regular direct contact with minority groups that both praise and criticise said groups.

Even if other posters hadn't jumped in with nice anecdotes about travellers, we can't take it as representative. Maybe >>26663 has a point, but that makes me worried about the times when no one has a positive story to chime in with -- would having only negative anecdotes justify distrust? I don't want things to go that way.

The poster >>26655 also raises a valid point, and that's not equivocation, either. I don't mean to single out posts, but you can see an example of it in this thread. Negative characteristics are expected of travellers, good characteristics are in spite of the fact they're travellers:
>If you met them you wouldnt think they used to live in a van.

I'm not pretending to be morally above anyone, here. If I had the constant pain of >>26656 I would probably start associating that behaviour with the fact they're travellers, consciously or not. I already know for a fact I do prejudge people based on appearance and background. What I try to keep in mind, though, is that people of any background can commit crime or be antisocial, and it's mainly the bigger factors that puts someone in that position. Not excusing the behaviours, but understanding that makes it a solvable problem.
>> No. 26666 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 2:41 pm
26666 spacer
>>26661

I did post an anecdote too, but that's still not the point - I would imagine most people simply don't interact with travellers, and if one helped an old lady across the street or let you cut in line at Tesco because you were only buying a pint of milk, would you even know they were a traveller?
>> No. 26669 Anonymous
29th July 2020
Wednesday 3:06 pm
26669 spacer
>>26659
That would kind of tally with charitylad's "the best and brightest get out of the community" hypothesis, though.
>> No. 26693 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 1:35 pm
26693 spacer
I fail to see how it is racist to define or criticise a culture. Criminality is not genetically imprinted on them, but culturally it is. It is quite literally how they survive whilst being so isolationist. People who deny this do not have experience or knowledge of travellers, or they are making a point on a technicality ("Not EVERY traveller is a criminal"). Ok fine, but most are.
>> No. 26694 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 1:41 pm
26694 spacer
>>26693
>I fail to see how it is racist to define or criticise a culture. Criminality is not genetically imprinted on them, but culturally it is. It is quite literally how they survive whilst being so isolationist. People who deny this do not have experience or knowledge of Jews, or they are making a point on a technicality ("Not EVERY negro is a criminal"). Ok fine, but most are.
>> No. 26696 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 1:54 pm
26696 spacer
>>26694
The difference is that what I'm saying about travellers is true.

Whereas Jews, black people are not a small group of people making up a single culture defined by criminality.

I don't think it would be fair to apply what I said to any other ethnic group I can think of. Travellers are that unfortunate anomaly.
>> No. 26698 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 2:15 pm
26698 spacer
>>26694

You've reshuffled words countless times in this thread in an attempt to shock. No one is going to be shocked anymore this time then the last time, you haven't gotcha'd anyone, because you wield it like a sledge hammer. You don't have a point worth making.
>> No. 26699 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 2:26 pm
26699 spacer
>>26698

No, that was someone else who did it the one previous time.
>> No. 26700 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 2:27 pm
26700 spacer
>>26696
>The difference is that what I'm saying about travellers is true.
Every racist says this about the people they're being racist about.
>> No. 26701 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 2:52 pm
26701 spacer
>>26700

The problem is that is a taboo to hide behind exploring the problem properly, the intention here is not to discriminate the intention here is to reduce the criminal element that harms people and that requires looking at the causes. The problem is the usual hallmark of poverty but there is an isolationist component that reinforces it. The impasse is how do you help a group who don't want help? A blind eye cannot be simply turned because it is damaging to everyone else and would escalate the situation.

Education is the best chance we have of changing anything despite what 'brainwash' lad thinks.
>> No. 26703 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:23 pm
26703 spacer
8 years in prison for killing a copper doesn't seem like a lot.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46544144
>> No. 26704 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:27 pm
26704 spacer
>>26703

Probably why the driver got 16 and the others got 13.
>> No. 26705 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:28 pm
26705 spacer
>>26701

In some cases, yes. In this one: somehow I don't think that most of the people claiming to "not be racist because they are actually all evil criminals" in this thread have their best interests at heart.
>> No. 26706 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:32 pm
26706 spacer
>>26704
Half of which will be spent in prison, plus they've already been on remand for about a year.
>> No. 26707 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:32 pm
26707 spacer
>>26704
He halved the sentence because that's what prisons do.
>> No. 26708 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:48 pm
26708 spacer
>>26703

I'm inferring that you mean you think you should get a harsher sentence for killing a police officer, compared to killing a normal person?

Why?
>> No. 26709 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:49 pm
26709 spacer
>>26707

Either way I think we can agree with 90% certainty he is the kind of knee jerk cunt who phones into to LBC complaning we need to bring back hanging.
>> No. 26710 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:52 pm
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>>26708

Lad they are almost certainly the kind who no number would ever be big enough for. They don’t care about rehabilitation or reform, they want torture.
>> No. 26711 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:53 pm
26711 spacer
>>26708

Damage to government property?
>> No. 26712 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 3:55 pm
26712 spacer
>>26708
I'd always expected that if you killed a copper they'd come down on you like a ton of bricks.

>>26709
I think you need to stop reading too much into other people's posts. You're not very good at it.
>> No. 26714 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 4:00 pm
26714 spacer
>>26712
>I'd always expected that if you killed a copper they'd come down on you like a ton of bricks.

They do, they come down on you to the tune of 16 years. It says so in the article. You halved it so that others would be more outraged, you knew what you were doing.
>> No. 26715 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 4:07 pm
26715 spacer
>>2671
>They do, they come down on you to the tune of 16 years

Considering the maximum sentence is 24 years for manslaughter that is not coming down on someone like a ton of bricks.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/unlawful-act-manslaughter/

>You halved it so that others would be more outraged, you knew what you were doing.

Offenders always complete their full sentence but usually half the time is spent in prison and the rest is spent on licence. While on licence, an offender can be sent back to prison if they break its terms.

The system of serving half a sentence in prison and half on licence was introduced by Parliament, and is not something that judges or magistrates have any control over.


https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-sentencing/sentencing-myths/

I halved it because that's what tends to happen. The only person who appears to be outraged is you, lad.
>> No. 26716 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 4:55 pm
26716 spacer
>>26715

24 don't you mean, ONLY 12 YEARS!

No you are either inconsistent in a way that is disingenuous, or an idiot. If everyone relayed the way you did that 8 years would become 4 in the next retelling, and so on.

I know how sentencing works, the only inconsistency here is inside your brain.
>> No. 26717 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 4:59 pm
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>>26715

>Considering the maximum sentence is 24 years for manslaughter that is not coming down on someone like a ton of bricks.

Only 12 years for manslaughter? Ridiculous.
>> No. 26719 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 5:01 pm
26719 spacer
>>26716
The driver will most likely serve eight years in prison, based on the fact that most people serve half of their sentence in prison.

The maximum sentence for manslaughter is 24 years.

Neither of those statements are contradictory or inconsistent. By all means double down as much as you want, lad, but you might want to take a breather because you've worked yourself up.
>> No. 26720 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 5:14 pm
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>>26719

The point, as if you'd actually missed it, is that the (your?) original post with the link to the article did not say "he's been sent down for 16 years, thats not enough, especially considering the way sentencing works in this country!" - if it had, you might be more justified in then arguing you were in the right by saying "but the maximum is 24 years!"

In short, again, as if you didn't already know what you've done, you've used the shorter number to suit your first point and the longer number to suit your second point. This is certainly inconsistent.

As evidenced by at least one other response in this thread, not everyone knows that you only serve half your sentence in a UK prison, so expecting everyone to just understand that is not reasonable.
>> No. 26722 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 5:16 pm
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>>26712

You seem pretty quick to assume they will only spend 8 yeas in prison though, almost like you are talking out your arse about things you couldn't know because they are in the future. The sentence was 16, so let’s say 'sentenced to 16 years that seems a bit low?' or do you think people would assume you to be a knee jerking mong if you said that?
>> No. 26726 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 5:41 pm
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>>26720
It's almost as if I was responding to a post saying they'd come down on him like a ton of bricks by giving him a 16 year sentence by pointing out the guidelines showing they could have given him a 24 year one.

If anything that's being consistent with the post I was replying to rather than being inconsistent.

>>26722
>knee jerking mong

The ironing is delicious.
>> No. 26727 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 6:37 pm
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There ARE decent traveller folk, but because they don't cause a fuss you don't hear about them.

That and they're outnumbered by wankers 1000 to 1.
>> No. 26728 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 6:48 pm
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>>26727
What's the saying, "If one of your neighbours doesn't like you, he's an arsehole; if none of them like you, you're the arsehole"? Granted there are holes in that but I can honestly say I've never met anyone who was happy to have travellers around their property or who had a nice word to say about them after direct experience. And I've heard these observations from a range of folk. I generally assume that people's sympathy towards Roma/travellers is in inverse proportion to their level of actual exposure.
>> No. 26729 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 6:57 pm
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>>26728
When you "assume" you make an ass out of everyone involved.
>> No. 26730 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 7:03 pm
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>>26726
There must come a point where the difference in sentence is just become an arbitrary number to please your brand of mong.

Where the difference in years is indistinguishable to those who haven't experienced it in terms of what it actually means because it is so arbitrarily large, I would say that number is well before 16. I certainly know if the purpose was to knock the fight out of me, break me, institutionalise me and bring me back around that would come well before 16 years, are you the same person you were 16 years ago? Or even 8 years ago?

If the purpose of sentences is to appease mongs like you who like the biggerest numbers you would think 16 is plenty, but no, you heard the number could be bigger so why isn’t it? Well what would happen when an even worstest rotter comes along? Then they would have to raise the number past 24 to satisfy you, even though 24 should be plenty stupidly high enough.

Learn to manage your expectations and think about long of time periods we are talking about before you speak.
>> No. 26731 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 7:22 pm
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>>26730
I've never actually said once that I want them to have a longer sentence. All I've actually said is that I thought you'd get longer for killing a copper and you fucking clowns have had a massive knee-jerk reaction, read into it what you wanted to read into it and decided this means I must be part of the hang 'em, flog' em brigade because you strum yourselves off at the thought of putting someone you rail against in their place so want it to be true.
>> No. 26732 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 7:28 pm
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>>26731

>All I've actually said is that I thought you'd get longer for killing a copper

Oh right, so do you think that's the right length of sentence?
>> No. 26733 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 7:43 pm
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>>26732
I'd have expected it to be longer, but I'm not a legal professional.
>> No. 26737 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 9:04 pm
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>>26731

>I've never actually said once that I want them to have a longer sentence.

People who think 16 years is too much or right tend not to call it only 8 years, little tip for you next time you are disingenuous.
>> No. 26738 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 9:39 pm
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>>26737
As I said, I was surprised it wasn't longer. If you read the sentencing remarks you get the sense that Justice Edis was frustrated the guidelines meant he couldn't give a harsher sentence.

https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-v-long-bowers-and-cole/

I don't get why you're so obsessed with trying to have a 'gotcha' moment. Are you spending too much time on Twitter or something?
>> No. 26740 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 9:43 pm
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I just went to the chippy for my tea. I hadn't been for a while, so when I got my chips, I looked at them and said "this doesn't seem like a lot of chips for £2". The lady behind the counter said "Oh, I'm sorry - that's about the normal amount of chips we give for that price. Admittedly, it's not the maximum amount of chips we're able to give you, though - would you like extra?".

Obviously, being the reasonable, rational man I am, I said "OF COURSE NOT YOU STUPID WOMAN! I CLEARLY STATED THIS JUST 'SEEMED' LIKE NOT ENOUGH CHIPS - I NEVER SAID I ACTUALLY WANTED MORE CHIPS DID I?! I BET YOU FEEL STUPID NOW, FOR BEING SO PRESUMPTUOUS!"

Then they asked me to leave, which seemed like a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, really.
>> No. 26741 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 9:49 pm
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>>26740

>which seemed like a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, really.


No, entirely reasonable, if you actually said that to her and it wasn't just your inner monologue.

Their chippie, their rules. Insulting the person in charge is never much of a good idea.
>> No. 26742 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 9:55 pm
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>>26741

You're right. After I left there I went across the street to their competitor and ordered four pickled eggs, and when she gave me them I started complaining that two pickled eggs seemed like not enough pickled eggs for the money, as I angrily waved the four pickled eggs around in my hands.

Again, they seemed hell-bent on misconstruing my words and implied I was somehow dissatisfied with my quantity of pickled eggs. Some people just don't get it, eh?
>> No. 26743 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 10:22 pm
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>>26742

You are either the world's biggest sperg, or just bored out of your fucking mind.
>> No. 26744 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 10:43 pm
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>>26743
They are not mutually exclusive.
>> No. 26745 Anonymous
31st July 2020
Friday 10:56 pm
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>>26742

Everyone knows you stick half of them in your pocket for later so only count half of them.
>> No. 26746 Anonymous
1st August 2020
Saturday 12:30 am
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>>26742
I'd watch a whole series of these escapades.
>> No. 26973 Anonymous
11th August 2020
Tuesday 7:41 pm
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Local Facebook group are spreading rumours that gypos are using drones to fly over people's gardens looking for things to steal later.
>> No. 26974 Anonymous
11th August 2020
Tuesday 8:07 pm
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>>26973
Early in lockdown I saw someone use a drone to drop something into a neighbour's garden.
>> No. 26975 Anonymous
11th August 2020
Tuesday 8:29 pm
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>>26974

I hope it was a dog turd. That would be such a legendary waste of time and effort that I'd have to applaud it.
>> No. 26976 Anonymous
11th August 2020
Tuesday 11:51 pm
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>>26975
Also a handy way to get rid of snails.
>> No. 26982 Anonymous
12th August 2020
Wednesday 1:25 am
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>>26975>>26976
As the owner of many drones, I'm not sure I would waste them on a dog turd/snail mission - I think a better mission set would be crop spraying rude words/full on alien circles in the grass, using weed killer or herbicide of some kind - thanks to GPS you could do some precision artwork or sign writing, it would take a while for them to realise and last a lot longer.
>> No. 26990 Anonymous
12th August 2020
Wednesday 6:17 pm
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>>26982
>As the owner of many drones

This is more a jape for the sort of neighbours who have paved back yards, rather than hectares of grouse moorland.
>> No. 26991 Anonymous
12th August 2020
Wednesday 6:38 pm
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>>26990
Being one of those I'd be more concerned that this (not cheap) piece of kit would mysteriously fall out of the sky and have all the neighbours deny any knowledge of having seen it land.

Which isn't unfair given that it's invading their property with a camera.
>> No. 26994 Anonymous
12th August 2020
Wednesday 8:03 pm
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>>26991
>mysteriously fall out of the sky and have all the neighbours deny any knowledge of having seen it land

They're really cheap if you build them yourselves. Approaching throwaway/disposable cost.

They have real-time video back to the operator - you could easily shoot one out of the sky, but not without the operator knowing/having evidence.
>> No. 26995 Anonymous
12th August 2020
Wednesday 8:28 pm
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>>26994

Having evidence of what? Their own voyeurism and trespass?
>> No. 27062 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 5:19 pm
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>The killers of PC Andrew Harper have had their sentences referred to the Court of Appeal after the attorney general considered them to be "unduly lenient".

>Suella Braverman QC said attacks against emergency workers should be "punished with the greatest severity".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-53862037

I guess this means the attorney general is part of the hang 'em, flog 'em brigade.
>> No. 27063 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:31 pm
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>>27062

I suspect if the lads weren't laughing and grinning at the cameras after they were sentenced, this wouldn't have happened.

Burn them, their campsite, their families, and salt the earth. Crime : excessive smugness
>> No. 27064 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:33 pm
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>>27063
Couldn't agree more. Never been a hang-em-flog-em type at all, but that case did make me think twice about having a little rage - they were literally showing off about having gotten away with murder.
>> No. 27065 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:36 pm
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>>27062

This lot were clearly a set of unrepentant, cold blooded bastards regardless of their background, in fairness.

My only question is what actual good it does locking someone up that long. I'm not some namby pamby human rights types, but it really does have to be asked. What's prison really besides a free room and board for 20-odd years? Then you'll hear the victims on the news saying "Yeah, yeah, I'm happy with the sentence, it won't bring Are Chesney back but I'm glad they're giving him a free bed and hot meals at the taxpayer's expense for an extra five years."

I think we ought to bring back Roman amphitheatre style blood sport, personally. Imagine the TV viewing figures.
>> No. 27066 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:40 pm
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>>27064
I don't get the feeling that any sentence would have stopped them from performing for the camera, that's just who they are. But I'd be asking too much to suggest we should stop imposing custodial sentences out of catharsis and instead start examining restorative forms of justice, wouldn't I.
>> No. 27067 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:48 pm
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>>27065
>actual good it does locking someone up

>>27066
>imposing custodial sentences out of catharsis

As one bleeding heart liberal to another I agree with both of you - but let's try and put ourselves in the victims/families shoes. These lads were just past teenage adulthood. In the first place, keeping them off the streets for a while is probably a good idea, because if they continue to behave like without any kind of check, they're going to continue and do much worse. I already agree with you that the definition of a while is phlegmatic.

Second, the families clearly have something awful to live with from now on - it won't bring their husband/son/friend back, but depriving these chaps of their liberty, so that they definitely can't do it again, is some small recompense.

What would be a better outcome?

(Trying to be devils advocate for a moment, but I think this is an appalling case, and I don't believe for a second that when they drove off, they didn't know he was there attached to their car).
>> No. 27068 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:49 pm
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>>27067
> phlegmatic

Fucking wordfilter.
>> No. 27069 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:50 pm
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>>27066
Judging from the other responses in the thread so far, yes.
>> No. 27070 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 8:52 pm
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>>27066
>start examining restorative forms of justice
Like what? In this case, what would be appropriate restorative justice?
>> No. 27071 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 9:02 pm
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>>27065
What is prison? Is it a deterrent? Is it to punish people? Is it to protect the rest of society from criminals? Is it to rehabilitate?

I'm sure I read somewhere that the typical profilic criminal is estimated to have committed between 140 and 200 offences in the year before they were arrested. Lock up 10 of these habitual thieves and you've stopped a potential 2,000 people being the victim of crime.
>> No. 27072 Anonymous
21st August 2020
Friday 9:07 pm
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>>27067

I agree that you need to get dangerous thugs off the streets, but I think less is more if the whole "being locked in a room with nowt to do" is the entire punishment. If being locked in a room with nowt to do is easier than your old life it's hardly a deterrent; and the deprivation of liberty is only meaningful if someone had much on the outside to lose. It's a bit like when my school made you read a book for detention. It's like the teachers thought the "bad kids" hated having to read books so badly it would deter them from committing peanut ties and dead arms.

I think keeping people in for shorter stints would make the punitive nature of a prison sentence more pronounced. If a prisoner has to basically accept that they're giving up their old life, their kids will grow up not knowing them, their lovers will move on and be old women by the time they're out- I think that's actually easier to mentally process and come to terms with than a sentence just long enough to miss your kid's first steps, or to have your bird fuck off with someone else but still be the fittie she was with three years ago. It has a disruptive effect on your life, not just forcibly puts you in a different, more sheltered life.

Of course I agree we should focus more on rehabilitation all around, though.
>> No. 27084 Anonymous
22nd August 2020
Saturday 10:30 pm
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>>27071
The problem is that it has to be all of things when in reality it can't. Not while our justice system separates people based on severity of the crime rather than potential to be rehabilitated, which is something we can only guess at since people will lie to try and reduce their sentence.
>> No. 27086 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:10 am
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>>27084
At least if we changed to a system based on whether people can be rehabilitated it'd mean paedos would never get out.
>> No. 27087 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:20 am
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>>27086

maybe it's society that needs to be rehabilitated not the paedos

most paedos are locked up for things that wouldn't have been crimes in the past

(A good day to you Sir!)
>> No. 27088 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:24 am
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>>27087
Yeah, I'm still not convinced how simulated depictions of child abuse, while obviously distasteful, directly contribute to real child abuse.
>> No. 27089 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:53 am
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>>27087>>27088
>> No. 27090 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 11:45 am
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>>27089

look, we all know young girls are hot, just because society today doesn't want this to be true is no excuse to take it out on paedos

(A good day to you Sir!)
>> No. 27091 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 11:54 am
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>>27090
>look, we all know

And we all know that people who talk like you are almost always paedos in disguise. Fuck off.
>> No. 27092 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 12:08 pm
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>>27087>>27090
I'm sure there are other sites on the internet were you can rehearse your arguments for being a carpet-bagger - this isn't one of them.
>> No. 27099 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:15 pm
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https://www.change.org/p/uk-government-anyone-guilty-of-killing-an-emergency-services-worker-to-be-jailed-for-life-2dff4a1f-82b8-410c-838f-dd201e5dfe8e
>> No. 27101 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:33 pm
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>>27099
I'm not sure we need even more laws to make police a special protected class.
>> No. 27102 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:46 pm
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>>27101
If you ask me he took one for the team to misdirect black lives matter public opinion into feel sympathy for his fellow filth.

I mean he obviously didn't but the Police PR teams must be as happy as, well, pigs in shit, with this turn of events.
>> No. 27103 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 10:52 pm
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>>27099
I think there should be a law against calling proposed legislation SoAndSo's Law. I always feel for the families that propose this kind of thing, I get it they feel helpless and want to do something but it's a futile displacement activity.
>> No. 27104 Anonymous
23rd August 2020
Sunday 11:45 pm
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>>27103
>it's a futile displacement activity.

I don't know, the current government seem like the sort who will legislate based on knee-jerk reactions to recent events if they think it'll be good PR for them.

I can kind of see why she's doing it. There's been a lot of suggestions that the only reason the killers didn't go down for murder is because gypos influenced the jury.
>> No. 27116 Anonymous
24th August 2020
Monday 12:06 pm
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>>27099
I wonder how such a law would have played out during the recent riots in America, or even the protests in Belarus?

It would be surely better to crackdown on the negative influences involved in the case rather than whitewash all after it.
>> No. 29384 Anonymous
16th December 2020
Wednesday 12:40 pm
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>The killers of PC Andrew Harper will not have their sentences increased after judges rejected the attorney general's case that they were "unduly lenient".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55331692
>> No. 29385 Anonymous
16th December 2020
Wednesday 1:11 pm
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I believe we should legalise gypos and tax them for revenue.
>> No. 29386 Anonymous
16th December 2020
Wednesday 2:10 pm
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>>29384
>The Thames Valley Police officer became tangled in a strap attached to the back of the car as he tried to apprehend the teenagers, who were suspected of stealing a quad bike.
>Following a trial at the Old Bailey, Long, Bowers and Cole were all cleared of murder but convicted of manslaughter.

To be quite honest I imagined the victim to be tied and intentionally dragged behind the car. The verdict of manslaughter seems justified, though I vaguely recall the perpetators acted like cunts during the hearing.
>> No. 29387 Anonymous
16th December 2020
Wednesday 2:47 pm
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>>29386
Fortunately for the three of us that's not itself an offence.
>> No. 29388 Anonymous
16th December 2020
Wednesday 2:50 pm
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>>29386
The verdict was pretty much "we're almost certain that you knew you were dragging him behind your car, but we can't completely prove it."
>> No. 29411 Anonymous
18th December 2020
Friday 11:03 pm
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>>29386
Yes they were scum, completely without remorse.
>> No. 29412 Anonymous
18th December 2020
Friday 11:16 pm
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>>29411
'kay.
>> No. 29413 Anonymous
19th December 2020
Saturday 4:09 am
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>>29411

What law forbids being unremorseful?
>> No. 29416 Anonymous
19th December 2020
Saturday 4:56 am
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>>29413

No law forbids it, but it's a recognised factor in sentencing and parole guidelines.
>> No. 31599 Anonymous
2nd March 2021
Tuesday 10:01 pm
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Pontins, a gypo free zone.
>> No. 31600 Anonymous
2nd March 2021
Tuesday 10:44 pm
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>>31599
> Boyle
> Carr

"The only shite comedians at our parks will be the ones in blue coats, thank you very much".
>> No. 31601 Anonymous
2nd March 2021
Tuesday 10:50 pm
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>>31599
>Lee

This one is probably justified. When I was staying at a private resort a Lee ended up making an absolute farce of the martial arts contest, don't know if he was a gyppo but sounded like one sometimes.
>> No. 31602 Anonymous
2nd March 2021
Tuesday 11:02 pm
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>>31601

When I was in Edinburgh this Lee clan bloke broke into the theatre we were at and started telling us a long, pointless story about pissing on some flies, then he started shouting at us for not getting the point of his story. It was all very uncomfortable, we were supposed to be there for a comedy thing.
>> No. 31603 Anonymous
2nd March 2021
Tuesday 11:10 pm
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I had assumed Pontins had been swallowed up by the black hole of the Great Recession with the likes of Woolworths, even the b-roll they used on the news earlier appeared to be from 1998.
>> No. 31604 Anonymous
3rd March 2021
Wednesday 6:08 am
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>>31603

Pontins in Southport is home to Bang Face, the best/worst festival in the world. It's like a post-apocalyptic hellscape but with Strongbow Dark Fruit and cheap speed. See you there in 2022.


>> No. 31605 Anonymous
3rd March 2021
Wednesday 8:41 am
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>>31599

The Gandalf clipart with "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" in that shitty comedy font reminds me of how so much internal corporate literature is littered with inappropriately used typefaces.

Anyway, I thought those holiday parks would've loved to book the Nolan sisters back in the day, or have gyppo shenanigans recently stepped up a gear or two in the past 45 odd years?
>> No. 31606 Anonymous
3rd March 2021
Wednesday 9:56 am
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>>31604
Looks like good wholesome fun.
>> No. 31618 Anonymous
3rd March 2021
Wednesday 9:33 pm
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>>31604

You had me at Strongbow and cheap speed.
>> No. 31620 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 11:30 am
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>>31604

I can't imagine the lack of self awareness needed to go to something like this.
>> No. 31621 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 12:54 pm
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Apparently we shouldn't be calling them travellers, they like to be known as Mincéirí.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/04/irish-pontins-traveller-racism-blacklist-ireland
>> No. 31622 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 1:08 pm
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>>31621

I wish the article provided a bit more historical context and justification.
>> No. 31623 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 1:21 pm
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>>31622
I think it's one of those exclusivity things, where knowing the correct nomenclature is a very big deal and people go out seeking increasingly obscure terms to be ahead of the curve.

Anyway, I believe it's pronounced "mincer."
>> No. 31624 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 1:51 pm
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>>31620

Wny would being self aware preclude you from going to a speed rave in a holiday park?
>> No. 31625 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 1:54 pm
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>>31620
I imagine all the drugs and extreme electronic music get rid of your pesky sense of self sharpish.
>> No. 31626 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 2:48 pm
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>>31620

Everyone at Bang Face is perfectly aware that what they're doing is utterly ridiculous, they're just having far too much fun to care. I'm a knobhead, you're a knobhead, but we're all going to be dead soon so we might as well have a laugh. That's my idea of being self-aware.
>> No. 31627 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 3:05 pm
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>>31620

Fucking hell misery guts, I'd ask you rhetorically when you last did something for fun but I know you could quote exact time and date from your personal log book.
>> No. 31628 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 9:32 pm
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>>31621
What's the word she refused to write, Tinker? Green?

She doesn't know what she's talking about anyway - Walsh is applied to ancestral Britons being the old Germanic for foreigner and the word is literally the root of Welsh. There's lots of Walsh in Ireland for a reason but it's not Irish.
>> No. 31629 Anonymous
4th March 2021
Thursday 11:23 pm
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>>31628

I really can't tell. She says it's a surname on that list, though I assume it might be bastardised in the slang, or maybe they really just do go round calling them "McDonoughs" or similar, but you'd think it would have taken her a wee bit less time to figure out that's a surname.

It seems like something very specific to a small area she lived in, mind - I've spent plenty of time in that neck of the woods and even more time with people originally from there, and nothing's jumping out at me.

Of course she's not complaining about the term "hames" as in "they made a right hames of it" to mean someone fucked up, because Hames is an english name. Racists.
>> No. 31630 Anonymous
5th March 2021
Friday 1:39 am
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>>31629
This really is some next level 'comment is free' - she's managed to piss me off with an irrelevant mystery I can never solve but which I know my mind will come back to. She clearly knew what she was doing as well by how she danced around it and sold it to us.

It's torture for the internet generation. We're going to remember this article in 10 years time just as we're drifting off to sleep and we'll be tossing and turning all night.
>> No. 31631 Anonymous
5th March 2021
Friday 4:34 am
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>>31630

>she's managed to piss me off with an irrelevant mystery I can never solve but which I know my mind will come back to

It really might just be entirely made up. I will ask someone from Derry what they think in the morning.
>> No. 31632 Anonymous
5th March 2021
Friday 8:10 am
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I am really curious how the Pontins policy came about. It is quite extraordinarily blanket.
>> No. 31633 Anonymous
5th March 2021
Friday 8:24 am
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>>31632
>The whistleblower said the company went to exhaustive lengths to try to ensure its policy was enforced. He said: “You were told from day one that you had to listen out for an Irish accent and find out as much as possible about a person such as their address and whereabouts. So if a person had an Irish accent and was calling from Ireland, then strangely that was ok. But if it was an Irish accent and the postcode was for a caravan site or an industrial estate in Britain, then that was a big red flashing light.

>“At that point we would have to signal to a supervisor to come over so they could put on a headset and enter the call silently. Depending on what they heard, it would either be a nod and a thumbs up to say it was ok to proceed or you were asked to put the caller on hold and told ‘we’re not having them’. It was an instruction to refuse the booking. It was up to us to find the way to refuse.”

>The EHRC found that Pontins had resorted to an additional tactic to weed out those it did not wish to accommodate by also excluding commercial vehicles, including vans and caravans of the type often used by the Traveller community, from all its premises.

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/pontins-whistleblower-reveals-travellers-blacklisted-you-had-to-lie-893063

It wasn't as blanket as it has been made out to be. Not wanting gypsies staying with you is hardly a surprise, given their form.
>> No. 31634 Anonymous
5th March 2021
Friday 8:52 am
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>>31633

I was going to say the only really surprising part is that they had to make this an official policy and enforce it at all. I believe we mentioned as much earlier on in the thread, but anyone who's ever done a reasonable stint in retail can attest Mincéiríi are effectively barred by unspoken common knowledge.

The weird bit is the list of surnames. It's not as if there are loads of people with those incredibly common Irish names who aren't gypsies, is it. That'd just be confusing.
>> No. 34019 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 5:13 am
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A sports club has been forced to cancel all training and fixtures this weekend after travellers arrived during a match last night and caused chaos. The six caravans arrived on Chanterlands Avenue yesterday evening on playing fields owned by The Hull and East Riding Sports Club, where several sports clubs play.

The Hull Zingari Cricket Club was having their under-11s training when the travellers arrived, and said they disrupted their game, forcing it to be abandoned, after "letting their kids and dogs" run all over the pitch. The junior team coach, who did not wish to be named, said: "There were adults shouting and swearing and being abusive. I was talking to a parent when one of the travellers drove his car at me. He drove at me then swerved and told me he’d run me over and kill me if I said anything to him. Then he told me he does what he wants, and started driving round the square like a lunatic."

He said one was driving a vehicle on their pitch which "costs thousands" to maintain and keep pristine, and was doing "wheel spins" on it. "It's fairly superficial damage fortunately, because it's been so dry, but I am worried about what happens if it rains and they do it again. If we get a downpour and they do it, they will ruin it. We spent £2,000 on padded covers for the pitch, and the kids were jumping all over them. We've closed the clubhouse now after someone did their 'business' in the corridor. It's vile."


https://www.hullPlease ban me.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/cricket-match-abandoned-after-travellers-5518178

I'm sure they're just misunderstood and are lovely people once you get to know them.
>> No. 34020 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 5:16 am
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>>34019

Six caravans, so hardly representative of the entire traveller community.

I think they're all scratters but one cunt hardly proves this
>> No. 34021 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 8:13 am
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>>34019
Interesting, zingari is italian for gypsies I believe.
>> No. 34024 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 9:25 am
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>>34019

My aunt was telling me about how this exact same scenario happened at their local rugby club, travellers drove onto the pitch in 4x4s literally while her son and the other kids were playing, they destroyed the pitch and even held the families there hostage inside the club building and refused to let them leave until the police arrived.

There's about 20-odd caravans pitched up in my local park right now, in a few days they've already wrecked 2 football club's pitches and taken over the kid's play area, leaving rubbish strewn everywhere. The local crime rate has also shot up with multiple burglaries being reported and several cases of kids being robbed of their bikes at knifepoint in the local park, but I'm sure that's all just a co-incidence. Pikeys are savage, feral scumbags and anyone who defends them as 'poor oppressed victims of racism" can fuck right off.
>> No. 34034 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 10:48 am
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>>34021

Hallowed grounds indeed
>> No. 34037 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 11:09 am
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The mystery word from that Guardian article three months ago is almost definitely "pikey", if anyone is still worried about it. I learnt the word "pikey" as a synonym for "chav", and it was several years before I learnt it apparently actually meant gypsy.
>> No. 34045 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 1:37 pm
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>>34037
Ohhhhh, you bastard.
>> No. 34058 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 2:59 pm
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>>34037

But is Pikey a surname? She specifically mentions it's derived from a surname.
>> No. 34066 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 5:17 pm
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>>34058
>derived from
Don't tell him!
>> No. 34067 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 5:28 pm
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>>34037
>>34058
I reckon its Tinker which is also a surname I've encountered.

Notice how that lad who was going to ask someone from Derry never came back to us. All talk you lot are.
>> No. 34068 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 5:41 pm
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>>34067
>Notice how that lad who was going to ask someone from Derry never came back to us. All talk you lot are.

He must have gotten on the wrong bus.
>> No. 34069 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 6:06 pm
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>>34067

Nothing you see is the truth.
>> No. 34070 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 7:20 pm
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>>34069
I've just seen your post. If nothing I see is the truth, your statement is false, so what now? At least one thing I see if the truth? Everything I see is the truth? Nothing I see is the ..untruth?
>> No. 34071 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 7:31 pm
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>>34070

The principle of excluded middle is a fundamental misconstruction, A is not A.
>> No. 34072 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 7:37 pm
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>>34071
Eh?
>> No. 34073 Anonymous
12th June 2021
Saturday 7:45 pm
34073 spacer
>>34072

Ā.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle
A thing needn't be [either true or false], it could be something in-between (or outside/beyond).
>> No. 34083 Anonymous
13th June 2021
Sunday 1:47 am
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>>34073

>A thing needn't be [either true or false], it could be something in-between (or outside/beyond).

U WOT M8
>> No. 36016 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 7:18 am
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Offenders whose crimes lead to the death of an emergency service worker in the line of duty will receive mandatory life sentences under a new law brought about after the death of a police officer, Andrew Harper.

The ruling, announced by the government, follows a two-year campaign by Lissie Harper, whose husband was killed while answering a late-night burglary call. She previously said she was “outraged” by the sentences handed to the three teenagers responsible for his death. The new legislation, named Harper’s law, will make it on to the statute books through an amendment to the existing police, crime, sentencing and courts bill, and is likely to take effect early next year.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/24/harpers-law-killing-emergency-workers-to-bring-life-sentence
>> No. 36019 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 1:18 pm
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>>36016
Nobody likes scum, of course, but this law really feels like it goes too far. Especially for the police, who have received a lot of bad PR recently precisely because of all the bad things they often do as part of their job. Now it's a mandatory life sentence if you fight back too hard. That's really very despotic indeed.
>> No. 36020 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 1:40 pm
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>>36019
Which cases have involved someone killing a copper because they "fought back too hard"?
>> No. 36021 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 2:23 pm
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>>36020
Those gypsy lads who tied him to a car and dragged him through the streets for over a mile. That takes fighting back too far.
>> No. 36022 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 3:23 pm
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>>36020
I thought a couple of cops died in the miners's strike. If not, then that really suggests this law is not necessary. Remember that this law does not include mandatory life sentences for police who kill innocent people, which happens unacceptably often.
>> No. 36023 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 4:00 pm
36023 spacer
>>36022
It's mainly people getting shot or ran over.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty
>> No. 36027 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 9:49 pm
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>>36021

The article states that the officer was "caught in a strap", which suggests an accident. Indeed the robbers were cleared of murder (which requires intent), and convicted of manslaughter (which does not).

Would this new law have prevented his death? Would the quad bike raiders have stopped to consider the possible life sentence before carelessly driving away? I see no evidence to suggest this.

Is it not a foundational principal of our society that the same laws apply to everyone, including agents of the state? Not in the mind of our home secretary.
>> No. 36028 Anonymous
24th November 2021
Wednesday 9:55 pm
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>>36027
Agents of the state being allowed to murder and rape while undercover is still in the bill, I believe. Or was that one already passed? It's hard to keep up.
>> No. 36029 Anonymous
25th November 2021
Thursday 2:05 am
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>>36016
How broadly is "lead to" construed as?
if someone shoplifts and the police are called, and the policeman responding is hit by a bus while crossing the road from the car park to the shop is there a chance the shoplifter could find that they're going down for life because a contrived "well if you hadn't done that, this wouldn't have happened" interpretation is possible?
>> No. 36034 Anonymous
25th November 2021
Thursday 5:52 am
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>>36029
Depends on whether they're a proper white or not.
>> No. 36839 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 1:15 am
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>Anti-hate groups including the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, the Auschwitz Memorial and Hope Not Hate have condemned Jimmy Carr for his comments about the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community in his Netflix special. The show, called His Dark Material, was released on Christmas Day but received widespread attention on Friday after a clip was posted and shared online.

>Carr said: “When people talk about the Holocaust, they talk about the tragedy and horror of 6 million Jewish lives being lost to the Nazi war machine. But they never mention the thousands of Gypsies that were killed by the Nazis. No one ever wants to talk about that, because no one ever wants to talk about the positives.”

https://theguardian.com/culture/2022/feb/04/jimmy-carr-condemned-for-joke-about-gypsies-in-netflix-special

Jokes are serious business, lads.
>> No. 36840 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 9:31 am
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>>36839

Weird that an ethnic group facing legislation that allows the government to confiscate their homes and separate their families might be sensitive about something like that.
>> No. 36841 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 3:53 pm
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>>36839

I get it's a joke, but would anyone be defending him if he'd done the same joke but about the Jews? Nobody but literal nazis. I think that says something.
>> No. 36842 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 3:55 pm
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>>36841

Also when is Rachel Riley going to have a t-shirt made with him on it?
>> No. 36843 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 4:15 pm
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>>36841

It's only a joke if we understand that killing gypsies is bad. If we all agree that killing gypsies is fine, it's just a statement and completely devoid of humour. The press seem unwilling to recognise that sometimes jokes aren't literal statements and sometimes people say things they don't believe for comedic effect.

Also, the joke was substantially contextualised by the material around it, but (of course) that context hasn't been given by the press.

Along similar lines, my all-time favourite joke:

Abortion is a sensitive and difficult issue and I'm really not sure what to think, because there are reasonable points on both sides of the argument. I'm all for murdering babies, but I don't like the idea of women having choices.

That's not a joke if you believe me to be a pro-infanticide misogynist. You may or may not find it funny, but to recognise it as being a joke rather than an unpleasant opinion you have to acknowledge that the punchline does not actually represent my beliefs.
>> No. 36844 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 5:08 pm
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>>36843
In the past ten years or so there's been a backlash from a very vocal minority against dark humour. The modern left is increasingly puritan.
>> No. 36845 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 5:34 pm
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>>36841

I've heard the opinion expressed from actual jewish people that they shouldn't be exempt from this kind of humour, not only because it sets a difficult precedent about some people being a protected group, but also in the case of jews it plays right into the hands of all the tinfoil types who think they secretly run the world.

Personally I just don't think it takes more than a broad MLK style commitment to the idea of universalism, but in this day and age that's not good enough and you have to go along with all kinds of mental gymnastic tripe to justify a fucking joke. But there we are.

>>36844

>the modern left

Only the ones who put sugar in their porridge, know what I'm saying?
>> No. 36847 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 6:06 pm
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Really, what have gypsies done for us? David Essex is alright. Is that it? At least Jews have done good science and television and film.
>> No. 36848 Anonymous
5th February 2022
Saturday 6:23 pm
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>>36847
>> No. 36854 Anonymous
6th February 2022
Sunday 2:48 am
36854 spacer
>>36845
>but in this day and age that's not good enough and you have to go along with all kinds of mental gymnastic tripe to justify a fucking joke
A half thought: The other side of this is that people want to have it both ways. (Whether it applies to Carr is a separate question.) We're half-in-half on a society that thinks saying something edgy makes you a dick, and nowadays that's something most people know or ought to know. But people want to keep saying edgy things without being thought of as a dick, and even if saying edgy things doesn't inherently make you a dick, even if that's arbitrary, saying edgy things knowing it's considered a dick thing to do still makes you a bit of a dick.

The transgressive element isn't the only appeal of edgy humour, but it definitely adds to it. And it's not like being a dick is the worst thing in the world - you can say "Yeah, I acted like a dick in order to make people laugh" easily enough. Yet there are a lot of times where you get the impression someone wants to be a daredevil without putting themselves in harm's way. They want the credit for jumping the bike over all the burning schoolbuses but they've got absolutely no interest in the fact that sometimes you fall off the bike and cut your arm or land a bit hard and feel like you've had a kick in the balls.
>> No. 36855 Anonymous
6th February 2022
Sunday 2:44 pm
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>>36854

I agree with this, yeah. If you're going to make callous jokes then you're going to have to expect backlash.

I also think the comedian's "character" matters a lot, and a big part of the problem for Carr is that his character is a bit ambiguous. "It's just a joke" isn't as convincing when it's being voiced by a slick, put-together stand-up persona.

Contrast that with Jerry Sadowitz, an ageing magician weirdo who is equally as vicious towards himself as any other target. You don't take what he says as seriously when you realise that he's speaking through a character. Same for Are Stew, whether you like him or not, he is at pains to totally undermine himself (and his stereotypical audience) in many of his standup acts, starting out smug and clever then working up to a self-loathing mental breakdown.

It probably doesn't help that Carr takes many of his jokes from writers, i.e. a writer might think this is a brilliant one-liner without considering how it might come across in context. We understand that when someone like Chris Morris says,
>Luckily, the amount of heroin I use is harmless. I inject about once a month on a purely recreational basis. Fine. But what about other people less stable, less educated, less middle-class than me? Builders or blacks for example.
he's being absurd for the sake of satirising elitist news media. When Sadowitz makes a joke about the Holocaust, we mostly twig on from the vulgarity and outright self-deprecation that he's speaking through a character, and that it's not about the actual target as much as the taboo.

For Carr, though? He's not an "outsider" figure and there doesn't seem to have any deeper satirical motivation or meaning in his work. I think people are mostly willing to accept dark or even outright nasty humour, if they understand and agree with where it's coming from and why. Yeah, maybe it's true that some people don't care whether these jokes come from a joke jukebox like Carr or a more carefully crafted act, but I certainly don't think people are wrong to react skeptically towards him, because a comedian has to earn the trust of the audience.
>> No. 36856 Anonymous
6th February 2022
Sunday 3:02 pm
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>>36855
Get back to CAB.
>> No. 36857 Anonymous
6th February 2022
Sunday 3:25 pm
36857 spacer
>>36854
>>36855

The other side of this coin is that when you go see a comedian like Carr, who you've seen on the telly making some pretty edgy jokes for Countdown, of all things, you likely know this is the sort of thing you're in for.

Or to use a more extreme example, Frankie Boyle. I never liked him myself, but the man's whole shtick was just being a cunt, so you can hardly complain when you go to see him and end up hearing something a cunt might say.

To go back to Are Stew even. He was near exiled for his role in the Jerry Springer Opera, which seriously offended a lot of Christians. He was effectively cancelled before cancel culture was a thing, and had to rebuild from scratch. That series of events have profoundly shaped who he is as a modern comedian, but his personal thoughts on comedy still very much lean towards the freedom of artistic expression. I'd recommend giving his books a read, he talks very candidly about his comic persona.

At the end of the day what it comes down to is that nobody is making you watch a certain comic. Nobody is making you watch a certain TV show. You can safely ignore it and pay attention to something else. Twenty years ago I'm pretty confident you'd all agree with that line of reasoning if it was Christians trying to shut down a heavy metal band, or moralist conservatives trying to ban a movie or videogame.

The strange development of the social media age is that we largely seem to have conceded that ground in recent years, and perversely, people claiming to be of liberal/leftist leanings have discovered the power of a good moral outrage. But it's still the same thing, and it's still bollocks.
>> No. 36858 Anonymous
6th February 2022
Sunday 3:55 pm
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>>36857

It's just the shamelessness of the press in finding stories that don't require them to leave their desk.

Watch some edgy comedians, pick out a joke that someone might be offended by, ring up some professionally offended people and ask "are you offended by this offensive joke" and bingo, you've got a splash. Play your cards right and it can run for a week with reaction and counter-reaction. It's the most literal sort of manufactured outrage.

It's just the Lenny Bruce situation all over again, but with journalists in the audience taking notes.
>> No. 36859 Anonymous
6th February 2022
Sunday 3:55 pm
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>>36857
I saw Jimmy Carr about 10 years ago. The only joke I remember from his routine was this:

When I was a kid I was afraid of the dentist.

He was a paedophile. I won't tell you how many fillings he gave me.


I doubt his routine has changed much from that. It was never much of an act, he just stood there and fired off one bad taste joke after another. He may have even used the statistics show that 9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape line as well, thinking about it.

From what I can tell, his show was released on Netflix in December and barely anyone watched it so they decided to publicise some of the more offensive material to get attention and it worked. I think they did the same for Dave Chappelle and his trans jokes.

Speaking of Are Stew:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OLXzO1oK2w
>> No. 37926 Anonymous
22nd March 2022
Tuesday 5:15 pm
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Huge Yorkshire headstone' weighing 37 tonnes may have to be torn down after council revealed it was built without permission

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/huge-yorkshire-headstone-weighing-37-tonnes-may-have-to-be-torn-down-after-council-revealed-it-was-built-without-permission-3619014

You can always rely on the gypos.
>> No. 37929 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 11:52 am
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>>37926
If Gypos built it, it will fall down as soon as they leave town.
>> No. 37930 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 12:27 pm
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>>37926
That looks so fucking tacky.
Jesus wept.
>> No. 37931 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 12:52 pm
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>>37926
So was he Irish or Italian?
>> No. 37932 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 12:53 pm
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>>37926

If Ireland is so great it deserves five flags, why don't they live there?
>> No. 37933 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 12:56 pm
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>>37931
Little known fact: you don't encounter the colour orange anywhere in nature.

Having plastic flowers would definitely have looked tacky.
>> No. 37934 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 12:59 pm
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>>37933

... what?
>> No. 37935 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 1:03 pm
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>>37934
I know some people claim the orangutan is orange, but's it's very clearly fucking brown.
>> No. 37936 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 1:09 pm
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>>37933

What colour are tangerines?
>> No. 37937 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 1:15 pm
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>>37936

Yellowy-red.
>> No. 37938 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 1:16 pm
37938 spacer
>>37935

Brown doesn't exist.


>> No. 37939 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 1:35 pm
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>>37930
I don't know what you mean. It's got a solar powered jukebox and everything.
>> No. 37940 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 1:40 pm
37940 spacer
>>37939
and an angel standing on someone's head.
>> No. 37941 Anonymous
23rd March 2022
Wednesday 11:10 pm
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>>37940
Demanding cash for "Roofwork".
>> No. 38595 Anonymous
31st May 2022
Tuesday 7:46 am
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>Horrified families claim their stay at a "luxury" theme park resort was ruined when "out of control" travellers reportedly trashed the campsite, left a tot with a black eye and pooed in the showers.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/travellers-terrorise-horrified-families-flamingo-24097327

Yet Pontins got a load of flak, mainly from the type of person who wouldn't ever dream of staying there, for banning gypos from their sites.
>> No. 38777 Anonymous
20th June 2022
Monday 3:54 pm
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Gypsies set up camp on university land, and like clockwork the Co-Op opposite has a security guard. They only ever need security guards when gypsies turn up. Is that an act of racism on Co-Op's part by responding to nearby gypsy incursion with beefed up security?
>> No. 38778 Anonymous
20th June 2022
Monday 4:10 pm
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>>38777
You should spread flyers informing the student body of this racism and watch the chaos unfold.

I don't envy that security guard. It sounds like a great way to get your car torched and to be utterly powerless to actually do anything beyond provoke a fuck-ton of aggro over a sandwich or a gypsy returning an empty bottle of cider because it was wet.
>> No. 38779 Anonymous
20th June 2022
Monday 5:04 pm
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>>38777
I assume the gypsies don't know the security guard is only there when they are. As far as they're concerned, he could be outside Co-Op all the time.
>> No. 38787 Anonymous
21st June 2022
Tuesday 4:19 pm
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Police van at Co-Op. Copper inside talking to staff, security guard is manually opening and closing the sliding door, one in one out. These travelling folks sound cheeky.
>> No. 39001 Anonymous
24th July 2022
Sunday 12:41 pm
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>>38787
Was this in Nottingham? I was there about a month ago and saw a bunch of caravans in a field and a security guard manning the door at a nearby Co-op.
>> No. 40106 Anonymous
9th April 2023
Sunday 8:19 pm
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The survey also revealed shocking health disparities between Roma, Gypsy and Traveller people and the rest of the population. Gypsy or Traveller men were 12.4 times as likely to suffer from two or more physical health conditions than white British men, while Roma men were five times as likely – both were higher figures than for any other ethnicity.

Access to health and social care services was found to be a larger issue for Roma people than any other ethnic group, who were 2.5 times more at risk of not having access than the white British population.

The survey also found that people from Roma, Gypsy and Traveller ethnic groups experienced the highest levels of socioeconomic deprivation. About 51% of Gypsy Travellers and 55% of Roma had no educational qualifications. They were also less likely to be in the highest occupational positions, and also had high rates of financial difficulties and benefit receipts.


Roma, Gypsy and Traveller people were also among the least likely of ethnic groups to be in employment, and when they did have jobs during the Covid-19 pandemic they were the most likely to be in precarious employment. After adjusting for age, 85% of Gypsy or Traveller men and 65% of Roma men were in precarious employment, compared with 19% of white British men.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/09/social-barriers-faced-by-roma-gypsies-and-travellers-laid-bare-in-equality-survey

Aren't most of these issues self imposed?
>> No. 40107 Anonymous
9th April 2023
Sunday 8:26 pm
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>>40106
Would you hire a gypsy?
>> No. 40108 Anonymous
10th April 2023
Monday 3:03 am
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>>40107

To tell my future or nick my neighbour's tools out of his shed, anytime.
>> No. 40109 Anonymous
10th April 2023
Monday 7:52 am
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>>40107
They could just not tell people they're a gypsy? It's not like they'll turn up for the job interview in a horse and cart before offering to tarmac over the carpark.
>> No. 40110 Anonymous
10th April 2023
Monday 11:29 am
40110 spacer
>>40109
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/02/secret-pontins-blacklist-irish-surnames
>> No. 40119 Anonymous
10th April 2023
Monday 10:57 pm
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>>40106
It's a cultural thing. It's going to be hard to get a proper job when everyone you know will shun you as a sellout for doing so, and even harder once they all pack up their caravans and move away and you have to quit the job and go too. Never mind the hardships that come when your parents were culturally opposed to you learning to read.
>> No. 40120 Anonymous
12th April 2023
Wednesday 7:35 am
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>>40119
So why are the Guardian making it sound like it's everyone else's fault but the gypsies that this happens?
>> No. 40121 Anonymous
12th April 2023
Wednesday 10:43 am
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>>40120

The Guardian are committed to anti-racism, which means believing that anyone who doesn't tick "White British" on the census is a helpless victim of oppression except the Jews, because Jews don't count, except for when someone we don't like is saying that Jews don't count, in which case they do count. Rudyard Kipling was a racist for believing that, but asking why the same belief can be both racist and anti-racist is racist.
>> No. 40122 Anonymous
12th April 2023
Wednesday 8:41 pm
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>>40120

Because they just love a good Rags-to-Rags story.
>> No. 41415 Anonymous
8th March 2024
Friday 7:00 pm
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Boy, 11, found driving BMW towing caravan on M1

An 11-year-old boy was found behind the wheel when police pulled over a BMW X5 towing a suspected stolen caravan on the M1. North Yorkshire Police arrested the boy on suspicion of theft, burglary and motoring offences including dangerous driving.

Officers received a call at about 15:30 GMT on Thursday that a caravan had been stolen from a holiday site near Thirsk. They tracked a BMW they said was using cloned plates heading south on the A1.

The force said that 45 minutes after the caravan was reported stolen "we stopped the vehicle on the M1 after it left the A1 at Hook Moor Interchange near Garforth".


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-68513071

Might as well start learning the family trade at an early age.
>> No. 41416 Anonymous
8th March 2024
Friday 8:07 pm
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>>41415

On some level, you've got to respect the lad.
>> No. 41417 Anonymous
9th March 2024
Saturday 1:38 am
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>>41415
This story is just nuts.

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