[ rss / options / help ]
post ]
[ b / iq / g / zoo ] [ e / news / lab ] [ v / nom / pol / eco / emo / 101 / shed ]
[ art / A / beat / boo / com / fat / job / lit / map / mph / poof / £$€¥ / spo / uhu / uni / x / y ] [ * | sfw | o ]
logo
news

Return ] Entire Thread ] First 100 posts ] Last 50 posts ]

Posting mode: Reply
Reply ]
Subject   (reply to 36687)
Message
File  []
close
7d196e7e-22b3-4a83-8e6e-90fd9ac0fd72.jpg
366873668736687
>> No. 36687 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 7:58 pm
36687 Ukraine Crisis
Let's take a break from Thatcherlad arguing with Marxlad and talk about geopolitics. So what do we reckon about this year's bi-annual lurching forward of the doomsday clock?

I think this is a pretty sensible breakdown.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/19/ukraine-russia-nato-crisis-liberal-illusions/

Standing back from the situation it seems obvious that US led brinkmanship and almost psychopathic foreign policy only makes a bad situation worse. The extent to which the media portrays Russia as the unambiguous bad guys while NATO continues to push them borders on completely delusional, like saying the sky is green or the sea is made of sand. Russia and Putin are no saints by any means, but what did we (the West) expect by constantly encroaching on their security interests?

The UK and EU badly need to distance themselves from America, I feel like they are going to become dangerous friends to have if moments like this and China's overtures on Taiwan play out as their own Suez crisis.
Expand all images.
>> No. 36688 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 8:12 pm
36688 spacer
It is none of Russia's business whether or not Ukraine wishes to join NATO. If Canada wanted to join the EU, America wouldn't have to like it but it would not be acceptable for them to try and stop it. And America hasn't committed any genocides against Canada in the past century that have left Canadians understandably touchy.
>> No. 36689 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 8:13 pm
36689 spacer
UVB-76 (The Buzzer) numbers station has been broadcasting Gangam Style and spectrograph trollfaces since the 15th.
>> No. 36690 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 8:15 pm
36690 spacer

FJVQY3HXMAA6lYg.png
366903669036690
Forgot the image. >>36689
>> No. 36691 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 8:25 pm
36691 spacer
>>36688

Imagine if there were a small island just of the coast of America, which allied with the Russians and the Russians proposed to put missiles on. How do you think the Americans would react to such a situation? It's not like they'd have a massive meltdown that almost caused nuclear war over the mere prospect, I'm sure.
>> No. 36692 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 8:58 pm
36692 spacer
>>36691
If such a thing happened, which obviously it never would, I would disapprove of that too. Because you're not meant to tell other countries how to run their business.
>> No. 36693 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 9:13 pm
36693 spacer
>>36692

Unfortunately, countries are a lot like neighbours. You might want them to mind their own business, and you might not give a fuck what they're doing in their own property. But sometimes, you have no choice but to confront them over how they keep leaving their bins at the end of your drive. Only the bins are nuclear missiles.
>> No. 36694 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 9:42 pm
36694 spacer
>>36688
>It is none of Russia's business whether or not Ukraine wishes to join NATO

This. Russia's recent ultimatum to NATO involves an effective sphere of influence in not only Ukraine but even Poland where the US is perceived as in need of grand bargain to counteract China and the European security alliance as faltering thanks to the vanity of France and Germany. But despite the limp-wristed attitude of Biden the West has already seen off one pressure tactic where Belarus attempted to force a refugee crisis.

Its threat that we know from the long-term predictions of the Russian economy will be used in future to bully economic concessions and as we see from the Caucasus and history of Ukraine itself will still seep in to sow internal conflict or even outright annexation. There's a reason even the Swedes are going mental at the moment and its not good at a time when Russia has spent year building up foreign currency reserves while the west is perilously sensitive to Russian gas diplomacy.

On the broader realist perspective; the problem the school has is it too often presumes a state (that you're in at time of writing) to have free-will. NATO expansion was an inevitability and the weight of Poland alone will pull the west deeper into conflict. EU expansion couldn't have been stopped by the US despite Moscow's view that it's a stalking horse and Ukraine fell into the western orbit because the people living in Ukraine (now run by a Jewish fascist president as Mendeleev recently went to point out) threw their puppet government out of power. What the West could've done to avoid all this was to integrate Russia into the west during the 90s and avoid the country becoming a basket case but we didn't so there we go.
>> No. 36695 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 9:49 pm
36695 spacer
>>36693
Or in the case of Eastern Europe, anti-ballistic missiles. Or in Ukraine, the red-line recently moved to having any sort of western military presence such as training a countries military to defend itself against a neighbour that illegally occupies 7% of the country. Whataboutism doesn't really work in this situation.
>> No. 36696 Anonymous
21st January 2022
Friday 10:13 pm
36696 spacer
>>36687

>Standing back from the situation it seems obvious that US led brinkmanship and almost psychopathic foreign policy only makes a bad situation worse.

The problem with almost all of U.S. foreign policy has always been that Americans have a hard time admitting when they are wrong. Their world view is that they are the beacon of freedom and democracy, that they are the most compassionate and generous nation on Earth, and that they must spread those values across the globe, much in the same way that evangelists think they have to proselytise their religious faith. It's also maybe no complete coincidence that much of the Ukraine kerfuffle that still persists today happened under Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State, who is a devout Methodist, a Christian fundamentalist denomination that is particularly known for its proselytism and the belief in its own moral superiority and the urge to spread its gospel.

Then again, when it gets down to down-and-dirty power politics, there are enough realists in the American government who know they are only doing it to further and cement the sheer power that the U.S. wields over the rest of the world. There is no room for idealism at that level, it's all about dominance, strategic influence, and access to critical resources and raw materials.

NATO's Eastern Expansion, then, wasn't as much an act of wide-eyed liberalism as the linked article suggests. I'm very sure there were at all times enough hawkish realists in the American government who simply spotted a chance to weaken their old adversary of Russia by diminishing and geographically reducing its sphere of influence. It was probably a welcome side effect that the former Communist satellite states transformed into Western-style capitalist parliamentary democracies that opened up to international trade, but the real Great Game the hawks in the American government and in NATO were playing was a different one.
>> No. 36701 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 10:33 am
36701 spacer
Funny actually isn't it, there wasn't really any bickering at all with Russia under evil orange anti-christ man, but now a Real Politician is back at the helm, we're back on the doorstep of nuclear annihilation almost immediately.

I feel quite bad for the people of Ukraine. The way they are being played as pawns here is really disgusting, Nobody ever thinks of the human cost of bullshit like this. What does the ordinary Ukrainian citizen gain from two crumbling superpowers having a slap fight over them?
>> No. 36702 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 11:50 am
36702 spacer
>>36701

I think your memory might be failing you, lad.
>> No. 36703 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 11:51 am
36703 spacer
>>36701
It's absolutely correct that the man who was actively supported by the Russians was much less confrontational with the Russians.

I still don't expect this to be a real Armageddon, though. The only reason everyone is so afraid is because Russia is lining up a 100,000-strong invasion force on the border of Ukraine, but countries often put soldiers in places without starting wars there. The Americans, and we, certainly do. But if there is a war, we're going to fight back primarily with pathetic wimpy sanctions, and Russia will retaliate by switching off all their natural gas pipelines, and then our heating bills will go up even more than they currently are doing. If it came down to it, the rest of the world could beat Russia quite effectively, but paying electricity bills won't be much fun for a while.
>> No. 36704 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 12:15 pm
36704 spacer
>>36703

>But if there is a war, we're going to fight back primarily with pathetic wimpy sanctions, and Russia will retaliate by switching off all their natural gas pipelines, and then our heating bills will go up even more than they currently are doing

This is the daft bit about it. We could have been mates with Russia years ago after the fall of the USSR and none of this would ever have happened, but America insists on penalising Russia for making them look bad 70 years ago and won't ever let it go.

What is the US offering us? We could do with Russian gas but what are the Yanks giving us in return for all this bollocks? The "global security" argument is totally invalid at this point because the whole thing is demonstrating they simply don't have the cajones for it any more. If Russia invaded us tomorrow, nevermind Ukraine, I seriously have my doubts if the Americans would come rushing to our aid.
>> No. 36705 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 1:28 pm
36705 spacer
>>36704

>We could have been mates with Russia years ago after the fall of the USSR

Russia doesn't really have "mates", only allies of convenience. A rekindling of the cold war was almost inevitable after the rise of Putin. A strong man without enemies isn't a strong man.

>>36701

>What does the ordinary Ukrainian citizen gain from two crumbling superpowers having a slap fight over them?

Nothing, but they have even less to gain from being invaded by Russia. Before giving Trump any credit, it is worth noting that the ceasefire in Donbas collapsed in the first months of his presidency. Ukraine are continuing to fight the war in Donbas, they will fight as hard as they can against any further Russian incursions, but they're massively outnumbered and outgunned. Ukraine want military support and they're asking for our help.
>> No. 36706 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 1:45 pm
36706 spacer
>>36705

>Russia doesn't really have "mates", only allies of convenience

Do you think that's somehow different to any other country? Do you think America really gives the slightest fuck about Britain?

There was always a way to prevent this. Russia should have been brought into NATO and possibly even the EU.
>> No. 36707 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 2:04 pm
36707 spacer
>>36706
>Do you think that's somehow different to any other country?

It's interesting how so many countries talk about having a "special relationship" with the US. All of them have a slightly different way of saying it but it's the same.
>> No. 36708 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 2:10 pm
36708 spacer
>>36706

>Do you think that's somehow different to any other country?

It's no different to the US, but plenty of other countries have deep and lasting alliances.

>There was always a way to prevent this. Russia should have been brought into NATO and possibly even the EU.

Do you think that Russia at any point wanted to be part of NATO or the EU? The Yanks believe that they have a god-given right to run the world, the Russians believe that they're a global superpower rather than a washed-up dictatorship with a smaller GDP than Italy. They both have a continual desire to expand their spheres of influence and those spheres will inevitably intersect somewhere in Europe. Wishful thinking or appeasement can't stop global conflict.
>> No. 36709 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 2:35 pm
36709 spacer
>>36708

>Do you think that Russia at any point wanted to be part of NATO or the EU?

Um, yes, actually, in the early 90s they very much did. After the fall of the USSR, Russian capital certainly wanted to be part of the global free trade and financial party. Our rejection and refusal to integrate Russia into the west is part of the reason Putin rose to power at all.
>> No. 36710 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 3:43 pm
36710 spacer
>>36696
>It's also maybe no complete coincidence that much of the Ukraine kerfuffle that still persists today happened under Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State, who is a devout Methodist, a Christian fundamentalist denomination that is particularly known for its proselytism and the belief in its own moral superiority and the urge to spread its gospel.

What are you implying here?

>>36704
It's Yankee ignorance that if anything that caused this. Russia was ignored when the missile shield was first proposed and it was ignored when the West started to interfere in the Caucasus during the War on Terror. This is what absolutely infuriates Russia because its a dead empire that wants to restart the Concert of Europe.

The argument of a decepticon conspiracy to destroy Russia was nonsense in the 2000s because everything was focused on terrorism and Iran.

>The "global security" argument is totally invalid at this point because the whole thing is demonstrating they simply don't have the cajones for it any more. If Russia invaded us tomorrow, nevermind Ukraine, I seriously have my doubts if the Americans would come rushing to our aid.

They would, stop being a retard. It's in the West's interest to maintain the stable and rules based international order against the new revisionist powers, not least owing to our level of economic integration. We actually even know from the leaked diplomatic cables that the US is unusually fluffy with us beyond any material gain and from Syria (and Iraq) that the US looks to Britain for a thumb up owing to the scars from Vietnam.

That doesn't mean we should be naïve on US interests but the reason the West's security alliance remains so strong is because if how aligned our collective interests are and how useful the components are. Ukraine is outside this umbrella but the reason much hand-wringing is going on compared to Kazakhstan is the threat this poses to the Baltic states and the way that Russia has undermined the fundamentals of the Post-WWII international order by stealing territory.
>> No. 36711 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 4:45 pm
36711 spacer
>>36706
There is talk of suspending voting rights for Poland and Hungary because their democratically-elected (in Hungary's case, that's debatable) leaders are mad fucks who just want to ruin everything. I don't think the rest of the EU would be very happy to welcome Russia into the fold. And Russia knew this; the only really valid argument they have here is that they very clearly asked NATO not to approach their borders in 1990, and that promise has been broken repeatedly by ex-Soviet countries looking to get away from the bear outside the tent. If Russia hates NATO that much, inviting them to join is unlikely to have succeeded.
>> No. 36712 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 6:57 pm
36712 spacer
>>36709

>Um, yes, actually, in the early 90s they very much did.

Russia is a member of the EAPC and the PfP. It has the option of applying for NATO membership via the PfP, but it has never exercised that option. 14 members of the PfP have successfully joined NATO via the PfP; Russia actively opposed their membership, regarding it as a threat to their national security.

Russia was a member of the G8 until it decided to invade Crimea. There are a substantial number of EU-Russia cooperation agreements, but EU membership has never been a serious option given Russia's active opposition to many of the Copenhagen Criteria.

The door has always been open for Russia to join the club, but they are unwilling to play by the rules. A NATO that allows its members to go to war with each other is utterly pointless.
>> No. 36713 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 10:36 pm
36713 spacer
>>36711

>the only really valid argument they have here is that they very clearly asked NATO not to approach their borders in 1990, and that promise has been broken repeatedly by ex-Soviet countries looking to get away from the bear outside the tent

The fatal flaw of post-Soviet transformation in Eastern Europe was then that Gorbachev didn't ask to get that promise in writing. In the negotiations to redraw the European map in 1990, assurances were limited to verbally telling the Russians, oh yeah, don't worry, NATO will stay put where it is. Gorbachev in the end accepted what the Russians assumed was a gentlemen's agreement. But as with anything you don't have in writing, it's difficult to then hold somebody, in this case NATO and the Americans, to their promise. They are now saying, well no, that was never actually part of the deal. And it wasn't, because it wasn't codified in the treaties. The Americans knew what they were doing though, and that a verbal promise was never going to be binding, and you could even say it was a ruse to sucker Gorbachev into agreeing to relinquish power over those satellite states.

It's also imprecise to say that the former Soviet satellite states simply joined NATO of their own volition because they were somehow scared of the big bad wolf Russian bear. What is true is that during the Communist Bloc era, Soviet political and ideological dominance over those countries often left them severely short changed. But on the other hand, the U.S. in particular has by now a 30-year history of intense influencing and outright meddling with domestic politics and public opinion in those countries. It operates NGOs, think tanks and other organisations whose sole purpose at least tacitly it is to foster pro-American political elites in those countries who will be loyal to the U.S. and NATO. There has been a lot of talk about Russian government-sponsored NGOs in the West in recent years. And they exist, and they often do damage in undermining and destabilising the political system and public opinion in countries like Germany or indeed the UK. But pound-for-pound and in terms of the kind of budget the Russians set aside to finance those NGOs, it's simply dwarfed by what the Americans spend a year on supporting pro-U.S. NGOs worldwide. We're talking on the order of 20 times the kind of money the Russians dedicate to it.
>> No. 36714 Anonymous
22nd January 2022
Saturday 11:28 pm
36714 spacer
>>36713
Why do you seem to always show the Americans as being the only ones with any agency? For starters the Visagrad group emerged before any consensus was agreed by the US, who instead acted from fear of displacement by a new European security architecture, and Russia's actions in its near abroad during the 90s already fuelled the opinions a population who saw European integration as they key to future prosperity. Even today when Poland's Kaczyński talks about a Polish strategy autonomy to survive a Russian attack it cleaves from NATO doctrine.

The Americans bumble about on the world stage, they're not a smart people or hivemind.
>> No. 36715 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 1:52 am
36715 spacer
>>36710
"Rules based international order" is one of my least favourite phrases. The most charitable way I can interpret it is that Russia is objectionable because it's a destabilising force, which is a perfectly legitimate view. Yet tipping it over into "they break the rules" becomes a step too far. I immediately want to point to Iraq, or to the nicked Chagos Islands, or god knows what little example that invariably invites dismissal with "whataboutism" even though the specifics of any example aren't quite as important as a general idea that we'd never let the rules get in the way of our perceived interests (I might say: 'damn right too!') and that I can't stomach pretending otherwise. Making the cynics case for doing so seems easy: it's much easier to keep all the little countries on-side if they think they might be able to catch you out by appealing to the rules. But as individual human beings rather than institutions it seems unnecessary to play along with such a game. It's not likely any countries that lose out from it are going to find out via a post from an idiot like me.
>> No. 36716 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 2:46 am
36716 spacer
>>36714

>Even today when Poland's Kaczyński talks about a Polish strategy autonomy to survive a Russian attack

Why would Russia attack Poland then?

It's this kind of thinking that prevents any kind of levelheadedness.
>> No. 36717 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 3:04 am
36717 spacer
>>36716
>Why would Russia attack Poland then?
Why wouldn't Russia attack Poland?
>> No. 36718 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 3:12 am
36718 spacer
>>36717

You just proved my point. Well done, you.
>> No. 36719 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 3:44 am
36719 spacer
It's funny how so many of you are repeating things that the OP's article already clearly went over. It's as though none of you read it.

I mean you're not wrong, most of you, but it does go to show how on the internet, we just start talking directly out of our arse without even acknowledging the information presented.

Anyway carry on, this is one of the more interesting threads we've had in a while. I think you might all get a sticker on the fridge.
>> No. 36720 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 11:10 am
36720 spacer
>>36719
I did worry briefly, "What if the link I didn't read disproves everything I'm about to say?" But then I would dismiss it as fake news and consider my time wasted for reading it. I will read it now (unless it's boring).
>> No. 36721 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 11:33 am
36721 spacer
It's a much better article than I was expecting. It's not pro-Russian propaganda, I don't think. It still doesn't give any reasons why NATO could be framed as an evil force, aside from equating it with America and listing all the bad things America has done. But then maybe I'm just too passionate about liberalism.

Ukraine declaring itself to be neutral, and refusing to get too close to either Russia or NATO, would perhaps work for a bit, but I think they have too much history with Russia, of getting invaded and massacred over and over again, for the Ukrainians to do such a thing and just hope Russia chills out for the first time in history. All the arguments that Russia is just bracing itself against potential attacks, just in case, can also be made for Ukraine, which would get its shit pushed in by Russia without a larger alliance.
>> No. 36722 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 4:18 pm
36722 spacer
>>36715
Your argument is that the rule of law law isn't valid because of abuse by the powerful so we should throw out the concept of law altogether. International law is challenged by the lack of global policeman but even the US suffers a cost for breaking the rules through community feedback, hence why states avoid launching wars of aggressive conquest because it has become completely taboo post-Kellogg–Briand Pact.

>>36716
>Why would Russia attack Poland then?

Russia has attacked Poland multiple times through hybrid-warfare, recently demanded that NATO cease the deployment of weapons in Poland, simulated an nuclear attack on Warsaw during Zapad exercises in Belarus and in more broad terms the Poles have every right to be distrustful of the bear to their east which they're wholly unprepared to counter. It's not like the Poles have been busying themselves since the 90s or don't have better things to spend their money on, they have an aggressive power to their East whose regime carries a geopolitical ideology bent on dominating their state.

To top it off there is absolutely no reason for Putin to fear NATO expansion, other non-NATO neighbours are ambivalent because they have no interest in bullying other countries quite like Russia has when it whinges about the Baltic states.

>>36719
The problem with FP is they've started aggressively pay walling their articles so it can be a roll of the dice whether someone can read it. The problem with Stephen Walt is that he's a realist windbag whose only trick is to talk about the 90s and American decline.
>> No. 36723 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 6:17 pm
36723 spacer
>>36722

>To top it off there is absolutely no reason for Putin to fear NATO expansion

Because it never happened, right?

Just imagine if the Russians started a new international military alliance and incorporated one country after another into it, in the Western Hemisphere, no less. Wouldn't we here in the UK or the Americans get a smidgeon nervous? Wouldn't that be considered a blatant act of "Russian aggression"?

And don't give us the whole "But NATO and the Americans are the good guys". Well, not entirely so, if you look at history. And while the Warsaw Pact was completely dissolved and Russia never reversed its geographical retreat, NATO was assimilating former Soviet satellite states left, right and centre.

Just because somebody says they're the good guys, doesn't mean they're not going to pull the trigger of the gun they've got pointed at your head the whole time.
>> No. 36724 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 6:25 pm
36724 spacer
>>36723

>Just because somebody says they're the good guys, doesn't mean they're not going to pull the trigger of the gun they've got pointed at your head the whole time.

Pretty much.

What we're essentially asking Russia to do is get their bollocks out, and put their bollocks on the table, which we are stood on the opposite side of, holding a hammer.

Obviously we're not going to do anything with the hammer, we just so happen to be holding it, complete coincidence. Absolutely no reason to be concerned at all, you're just paranoid if you think so. But nevertheless, would put your bollocks on the table?

It really doesn't matter who's the good guys and who isn't, that's the thing. It's that we're expecting Russia to submit, and Russia is not, nor has it ever been, a sub.
>> No. 36725 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 6:50 pm
36725 spacer
>>36724

It's the old double standard of good versus evil and war propaganda. These days, it's pretty much Russian aggression when Putin lets off a fart during Easterly winds. While nobody among the Western political elite even permits the question, without branding you an enemy of the system anyway, if the country-by-country eastward advance of NATO in the last 30 years could be construed by Russia as a latently hostile act.

The old mantra always goes that the other side does everything they do because they're evil, and "our" side only does essentially the same things because we're good, and you've got to break some eggs to make omelette.

This tactic is probably as old as warfare and all geostrategic jostling itself. Except since the mid-20th century, it has essentially been a game of nuclear chicken that almost turned ugly a few times, with no side really having been able to claim moral high ground. And just because nobody got hurt the first time around during the 1946-1990 Cold War, doesn't mean it won't happen in Cold War II. Can we really take that chance?
>> No. 36726 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 7:04 pm
36726 spacer
>>36723

A number of Eastern European countries made the decision to join NATO, because they believe it to be in their own best interests. Russia has repeatedly aggressed against many of those countries and is currently illegally occupying large parts of Ukraine.

There is no moral equivalence here. Russia has absolutely no legitimate grounds to oppose NATO expansion. Eastern European countries have every right to join NATO if they so wish. There is zero evidence that the expansion of NATO poses a threat to Russian security or territorial integrity, but it does pose a clear threat to Russia's expansionist aims.

There was no provocation in 2014; Russia simply assessed that the West would not support Ukraine to defend against an invasion. We cannot de-escalate this situation by appeasement. The international community needs to stand firmly in support of Ukraine's right to territorial integrity and self-determination.
>> No. 36727 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 7:18 pm
36727 spacer
>>36726

>Russia has absolutely no legitimate grounds

This is the part you don't seem to understand. There's no such thing as "legitimate". It's in their interests not to have NATO on their doorstep, and that's all the legitimacy they need to act in their own self interest.

It's delusional not to expect a country to act in its own self interest just because you've convinced yourself of some artificial construct on what it is and isn't okay to do.
>> No. 36728 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 7:19 pm
36728 spacer
Jeremy Kyle was a cock, wasn't he?

He had his own TV series, where he would invite dysfunctional people on, many of whom needed help, and he would berate them. What a twat. He was the rich millionaire TV celebrity, getting rich off the back of Callum and Chantal from the local council estate, and then they barely saw a sniff of the profits. Prick. But at the same time, Callum was a prick too. He kept getting invited onto the show because he was an alcoholic who would get blackout drunk and beat the shit out of Chantal. And Chantal hated this, but she never left, not even when Jeremy Kyle told her to. And two months later, they'd both be back on the Jeremy Kyle, being chastised for being worthless basket cases.

We are Jeremy Kyle. We're rich and we hold all the cards, ultimately. Chantal is the abused, barely-literate Ukraine. That poor woman. And finally, she has taken a stand and said she is dumping Callum for good. She's moving in with Jeremy Kyle, because he has a big house, and she's taking the kids. No more violent beatings from Callum after a weekend vodka bender.

Now Callum is in the street, shirtless and yelling for Chantal to come out. He has been insulted by Jeremy Kyle so many times that he really can't accept that Chantal would rather live with him than with Callum. That's the only reason Callum is so angry. He hasn't changed, and he will definitely abuse Chantal again while drinking even more vodka, reading unendingly miserable 19th-century literature, and sleeping around with Belarus and Kazakhstan. Chantal's still a hopeless thicko, but she looks at you, and asks, "Should I get back with him?"

Obviously fucking not. Come on.
>> No. 36729 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 7:47 pm
36729 spacer
>>36728

(Let's assume you, the reader, are Jezza, that makes it more personally relatable.)

But also, in this analogy, Callum is actually part of a quite serious gang on the estate, and if you don't let him in to see Chantal, him and his 'ard mates are going to break in at night and beat the shit out of her and the kids. They'll look at you and go "Well, gonna stick up for 'er are you mate?" and you'll just shake your head.

You know she's not worth a black eye over, and you always did. Deep down inside yourself you know you never actually intended to look after her, stand up for her, protect her. You were just using her for the council slag blowies, and you had only temporarily convinced yourself otherwise, you think to yourself, as a single tear rolls down your cheek and into your glass of Famous Grouse.
>> No. 36730 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 8:10 pm
36730 spacer
>>36729
>Famouse Grouse

You mean High Commissioner, Lad. That's your brown equivalent of Glen's Vodka.
>> No. 36731 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 8:13 pm
36731 spacer
>>36730
>Famouse

FUCK. Proof that even something as "posh" as Glenfiddich Solera 15 doesn't stop yu making a clown of yerself on the interwebs.

But I never punched a Lass. I have that going for me.
>> No. 36732 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 9:04 pm
36732 spacer
I fear we've left analogy behind and are just writing out sublimated fantasies.
>> No. 36733 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 10:33 pm
36733 spacer
>>36723
No. It would be considered a strategic failure of the west but by definition a defensive alliance shouldn't be regarded as an offensive act, you certainly wouldn't have even the Yankees annexing 7% of said country for smiling in the wrong direction. Not that anyone would ever be keen to host Russian soldiers of course.

That's the thing, it is perfectly legitimate for Ukraine to enter into an economic agreement with Europe and it's perfectly legitimate for sovereign states to enter into a defensive alliance. It says so in the UN Charter and and national sovereignty has been THE fundamental precept of international law for at least 100 years. On the other hand invading a country because they've frankly had enough of you and stealing territory is absolutely outrageous and may have even raised heckles in the 19th century. You only have to look at the limited number of countries that have accepted Russia's annexation of Crimea and the actions of even non-NATO members to know which side of history Putin is operating on.

Now you have to ask yourself what 100,000 Russian soldiers are going to invade for, what pretext are they going to use here when the limited equipment Ukraine has had delivered from NATO consist of anti-tank rockets and Turkish drones. Are the "fascists" coming to kill all the Russians or is it the Jews this time?

>>36728
>Chantal's still a hopeless thicko, but she looks at you, and asks, "Should I get back with him?"

ARE Chantal would never say this. She's made repeatedly clear she's going to fight back and if she ends up too broken then she won't be able to tend her ganja farm which is going to send prices for green rocketing across the estate.

>>36729
You wouldn't go in swinging against a group of chavs who have broken into your home and are looking to beat a woman and her children?
>> No. 36734 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 10:35 pm
36734 spacer
>>36726

>The international community needs to stand firmly in support of Ukraine's right to territorial integrity and self-determination

Would've been nice if the West had applied that same high moral standard to countries like Syria, or indeed Afghanistan or Iraq.


>There was no provocation in 2014

Except there was. The 2013 revolution in Ukraine was bought and paid for by Western shell NGOs. Whose operatives were literally giving protesters in the streets cash money handouts, and the opposition movement as a whole also received generous funding from countries including, but not limited to the United States.

Crimea's problem admittedly was that it has been home to one of (Soviet) Russia's most strategically important military bases on the planet since before the Cold War. A new pro-Western Ukrainian government could have simply evicted the Russians at some point, which would have weakened Russia's military posture as a whole.

Ultimately, just declaring Crimea a part of Russia was without a doubt a rarely before seen violation of international law and multilateral treaties. But what are you going to do. There is no feasible way of returning Crimea to Ukraine, without very literally risking an all-out nuclear war. Eight years of intense political pressure and sanctions have yielded absolutely no results, and the West is still deluding itself that yet anoter round of new sanctions over and over again is somehow at some point going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
>> No. 36735 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 10:42 pm
36735 spacer
>>36733

>You wouldn't go in swinging against a group of chavs who have broken into your home and are looking to beat a woman and her children?

Well, no, because the point of this analogy is that we (The West and Are Jezza) are absolutely just going to sit on our hands and watch Chantal get beaten up.

We can yammer on at length about what Russia has done wrong and how NATO hasn't done anything to provoke them, but at the end of the day what are we going to do? We don't want a fight with Russia, certainly not over a shithole like Ukraine. We don't give a fuck.

We're just acting like bigmen, but if we get called on it, we'll have to back away, and then we're going to look like right dickheads, and the whole estate will know we're not hard like we used to be. Past it. Has been. Next thing you know all these other upstarts are selling baggies down the Lion, and when you confront them, they just laugh. Get out of here, old geezer, you're done with.

That's the greater issue with all this. We've painted ourselves into a corner and we've fucked up. This is a moment of reckoning for the future, and the US is looking absolutely impotent right now.
>> No. 36736 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 11:04 pm
36736 spacer
>>36735

>We're just acting like bigmen, but if we get called on it, we'll have to back away, and then we're going to look like right dickheads, and the whole estate will know we're not hard like we used to be

It's all about how far you want to take a bluff.

As you said, ultimately, despite all the huffing and puffing, the West isn't going to start a nuclear war over a shithole country like Ukraine, and all the territorial pissing that both sides are doing isn't going to change that. Putin knew that the West wasn't going to send troops to pry Russia's most important European naval base from him at gunpoint to return it to Crimea. So he got away with it by successfully gambling on Western governments not being bigger lunatics than him. As far as our governments were concerned, it was better to just accept that Putin had made the West look like complete fools, and not risk global nuclear stability over a speck of land in the Black Sea that ultimately wasn't worth it.
>> No. 36737 Anonymous
23rd January 2022
Sunday 11:12 pm
36737 spacer
>>36734
>Except there was. The 2013 revolution in Ukraine was bought and paid for by Western shell NGOs. Whose operatives were literally giving protesters in the streets cash money handouts, and the opposition movement as a whole also received generous funding from countries including, but not limited to the United States.

Goodness, it's amazing how much money we must have considering the past 8 years the Ukrainian people have rejected pro-Russian candidates.

>>36735
>but at the end of the day what are we going to do?

Supply weapons, training and the like to Ukraine, you may have seen it on the news. Maybe kick Russia out of Swift and whatever other sanctions are needed to cripple the Russian economy as it was in Russia's last financial crisis. Your entire argument hinges on the assumption that "just let Russia do whatever it wants" is some viable option like it's not equally Russia that is skating on thin ice and isn't likely scrambling to save face.
>> No. 36739 Anonymous
24th January 2022
Monday 12:43 am
36739 spacer
>>36737

We've been trying to cripple the Russian economy for the best part of the last decade, and by the looks of it, it hasn't done much.

Probably because most of the people who would feel the pinch of those sanctions don't actually have many financial interests in Russia itself, instead they own half the real estate market in London and fund the Tory party.
>> No. 36796 Anonymous
30th January 2022
Sunday 6:08 pm
36796 spacer
The Russian war plan for this is insane (from 6:10 on):


Cities with millions of people under siege and a pincer movement cutting along and probably through the Chernobyl exclusion zone, Transnistria pulling Moldova in and Russia facing an insurgency that puts Iraq to shame. I can't imagine there's much margin for error.

>>36739
>We've been trying to cripple the Russian economy for the best part of the last decade, and by the looks of it, it hasn't done much.

It has. So much so that Russia has now stockpiled foreign reserves to avoid a repeat of the 2014-16 financial crisis where the majority of the economy fell into state ownership and millionaires fled the country despite targeted sanctions. Most of Russia's exports flow to the EU and the alternative once that dries up is falling into China's orbit as a low-wage economy for primary goods.

The one's coming next are suggested to be brutal, cutting even Sberbank alone off would cripple the Russian economy:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/21/russia-sanctions-stop-putin-energy-markets-us-invasion-527524

>Probably because most of the people who would feel the pinch of those sanctions don't actually have many financial interests in Russia itself, instead they own half the real estate market in London and fund the Tory party.

I don't get why you would think that oligarchs holding assets outside of Russia, who made their fortune in the chaos of the 90s, would be pro-Putin. Nor why you assume the UK is in any way Russia's largest trading partner or the anchor that Germany is. Russian = Foe is a dumb way of looking at it even if a few MPs are pretty regular bought off by anyone who wants a slice.
>> No. 36935 Anonymous
11th February 2022
Friday 10:10 pm
36935 spacer
ITZ, or not?

Can only imagine the smug grin that Putin has right about now.

For some reason, I'm reminded of that passage from Illuminatus:

>He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive. He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes. He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Russia and China.
>> No. 36954 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 4:57 pm
36954 spacer
Invasion on Wednesday, apparently.

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/krise-in-osteuropa-cia-rechnet-mit-russischem-angriff-kommende-woche-a-2e10a45f-b6eb-4b1a-b692-2edc64c04adf
>> No. 36955 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 6:12 pm
36955 spacer

df1752e5cc87c76287ca6559517d9fda--work-humour-der-.jpg
369553695536955
>>36954

Good to know Gerry is taking notice.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but so far, we've only got the West's thoughts on all that. While Russia still maintains that it's just a military exercise and that there are no plans to invade at all. It'd be a bit anticlimactic if the Russians actually don't invade and at some point just call off their "exercise". Like back in school when rumours went around that the school bully was going to kick the wimpy kid's arse behind the gym after school one day, but he never even showed up.

On the other hand, maybe the Russians just think that what goes around, comes around. They paid bitterly for believing Hitler's assurances as part of the Hitler-Stalin Pact. And then look what happened. Which also led to the Seven Days To The River Rhine strategic plan during the Cold War, whose aim it was that in the event WWIII broke out, the Warsaw Pact would push westward and overrun West Germany with all their available ground forces in seven days to make sure that NATO wouldn't do the same to Russia with their troops moving eastward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_to_the_River_Rhine

So it could be part of their strategy to completely go pokerface with it until the first Russsian MiGs or tanks cross into Ukraine.

The problem that the West has is that Biden has said very firmly that the U.S. is not going to send its own troops into Ukraine in the event of a Russian invasion, because it would trigger WWIII. While that's a somewhat prudent decision on Biden's part, one we in the West should probably thank him for out of sheer self interest and the fact that it means we won't be waking up to mushroom clouds in the sky next week, it also means that Putin will get away with invading Ukraine. He knows the worst he is going to have to endure from the West is a lot of huffing and puffing in diplomatic and political circles and a few more toothless sanctions that Putin can't be arsed to care about, but ultimately, the West will settle into the reality again, like with Crimea, that what Russia is doing is a grossly illegal act under international laws and treaties, but that there isn't anything you can really do to kick the Russians back out. Again, short of kicking off WWIII.
>> No. 36958 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 6:45 pm
36958 spacer
>>36955
This is one of those situations where because I don't know what will happen, I try to take a smug intellectual approach and scrutinise everyone's real motivations to predict how it will go. But Putin wants to portray the outside world as evil to his people, to cement his position in the face of existing sanctions, so he could well go to war for that.

Meanwhile, Joe Biden has very low approval ratings, which would be hugely helped in the midterms by a war with Russia. Our own government is mired in scandal, and saying Keir Starmer loves pederasts and hates justice didn't work, so they too stand to gain from a war. All across Europe, other NATO governments are finding themselves unpopular in a way that a war with Russia would really help with.

The war itself, of course, if it happened, wouldn't really benefit anybody except the politicians. Nobody is defending freedom and justice; both sides are just telling themselves they'd be putting a bully in their place for illegitimately trying to claim Ukraine. Based on what I've seen, Russia is going to try and cheat and invade Ukraine while claiming they're not really invading Ukraine. Then we'd look like the bad guys for fighting them when they never really invaded anywhere. So fuck Russia. But I don't know if that's what Russia is really planning, because I read all those reports in the dreaded m-m-m-mainstream media, which cannot necessarily be trusted.

I guess the ideal outcome would be cyberwarfare, with everyone switching off each other's power stations and Sky Sports but nobody actually dying. If we could remove Putin simply through filling Russian infrastructure with Goatse and Billy Herrington, I'd sign up today. But all governments everywhere have spent far too much on real weapons not to use them, so even that would probably ultimately kill us all.
>> No. 36960 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 7:51 pm
36960 spacer
>>36958

>Meanwhile, Joe Biden has very low approval ratings, which would be hugely helped in the midterms by a war with Russia. Our own government is mired in scandal, and saying Keir Starmer loves pederasts and hates justice didn't work, so they too stand to gain from a war. All across Europe, other NATO governments are finding themselves unpopular in a way that a war with Russia would really help with.

Except this time it wouldn't be a proxy war over which Western governments could do the usual circle jerk in telling each other, and their people, how much they condemn the barbaric acts of the enemy. This time, they're really running around with matches inside a dynamite factory. And the approval of your voters doesn't mean much if they all get vaporised by a Russian ICBM as a result of your gung-ho decision making.


>Based on what I've seen, Russia is going to try and cheat and invade Ukraine while claiming they're not really invading Ukraine

You can do that with a handful of military trucks in the vast expanses of the rural Donbas. You can even show footage of some nondescript landscape with Russian tanks in it and with the possible exception of undeniable landmark features in shot, nobdy will be able to prove from those images that the Russians aren't on their own territory, But once you've got eyewitness mobile phone video popping up on social media of entire formations of Russian jets laying fire on Kyiv, you'll know the Russians are right in the middle of Ukraine, and Putin won't bother denying it.

My guess is that because Kyiv is only about 120 miles from the Russian border and also not far from where Russia and Belarus are currently holding a joint military "exercise", the first wave of attack is going to be by air right on Kyiv. They'll do a decapitation strike and then take it from there as strategic targets will continue to be bombed by air and ground troops begin their advance into Ukrainian territory. While the West and NATO in particular will shy away from direct counteraction in order not to invoke Article 5.
>> No. 36961 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 8:02 pm
36961 spacer
>>36935
It's too late now.

In practical terms, Russia has started up drills that will be a ball ache to now quickly untangle into fighting and in particular amphibious operations aren't known for a quick turnaround. It also has no element of surprise and what is more the full attention of Europe focused upon it which is normally the point in any conflict when it opts for a negotiated settlement.

In strategic terms even NATO members have expressed doubt, Russia has a limited cost tolerance where intervention in Syria was defined by mercenaries and air-strikes (and involved backdoor guarantees that the Coalition would not supply anti-aircraft weapons), Georgia wasn't destroyed because the diplomatic cost was viewed as too great and Azerbaijan was allowed to humiliate Armenia because there was no open route to send aid. A war now would cut Russia from it's largest export market, dooming it to China's orbit and be a ruinously expensive conflict that would certainly cost some advanced equipment Russia can't afford to lose.

The whole thing has been sabre-rattling to see how the West reacts and it's probably sussed us as a little wanting. Same thing will now become a regular occurrence to undermine western confidence following the formula that began to emerge from Zapad and simulated strikes on Warsaw. Soon we'll have a similar display in the Baltics to test American resolve where Russia knows the NATO can't prevent them being overrun and where they might come to seek some accommodation.
>> No. 36964 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 8:39 pm
36964 spacer
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60361983

>More than a dozen countries have urged their citizens to leave Ukraine amid warnings from Western powers that an invasion by Russia could be imminent.


Nice knowing you, otherlads.

Time to pack your rice and wellies.
>> No. 36968 Anonymous
12th February 2022
Saturday 8:51 pm
36968 spacer
I watched that Lukashenko BBC interview the other day and what he said about NGOs was quite interesting, went something like that
>Yeah, all those NGOs you've set up? We've liquified them and they're all Western propaganda hubs
or something to that effect and it made me wonder if Lukashenko has tipped Russia off about similar things happening in Ukraine.
Not to sound like a Russian bot or anything but the way Ukraine was slowly being taken into the fold of the West and NATO made me wonder whether we have, oh let's be honest, we HAVE been nudging them closer and closer to NATO but perhaps Putin wasn't looking in the right places whilst it was happening. Now he's had a word with Lukashenko and Lukashenko has clued him in on it.
It does sort of feel like the West has been caught doing something it shouldn't have been doing and is now getting all defensive about it.
sage for absolute schizophrenic, rambling bollocks
>> No. 36984 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 11:42 am
36984 spacer

Untitled.jpg
369843698436984
My white knuckle ride of investing in Ukraine is paying off. Feels weird to be making money on peace for a change when everyone else has been throwing money at defence companies.
>> No. 36985 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 2:01 pm
36985 spacer
>>36984

How did you do this? As in, who did you invest through?
>> No. 36986 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 2:14 pm
36986 spacer
>>36964

This really does seem like an absolute reversal of the truth. Isn't Russia seeking a legally binding agreement to stop NATO expansion to the east?

It really seems like we're being geared up for war, primed to see Russia as the enemy.
>> No. 36987 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 3:14 pm
36987 spacer
>>36985
HL, FXPO wasn't a bad punt either for a smoother ride. Third largest iron ore pellet exporter in the world and a lot less risk of Green men, Kiev setting a price ceiling or corruption.

>>36986
Russia has openly signalled it's ​deescalating and it was always just a military exercise despite the Americans and media screaming. The Russian demands were always a bullshit high-ball ask if the west wanted to strike a grand bargain.

Ukraine gave some mixed signals that it won't be joining NATO anytime soon but they'll probably just apply once they feel they can credibly deter a Russian attack. Nothing ever happens.

>It really seems like we're being geared up for war, primed to see Russia as the enemy.

Annexing a chunk of a country like it's 1938 and running a low-intensity conflict in another nation's borders that has created 1.5 million refugees will do that
>> No. 36988 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 3:42 pm
36988 spacer
>>36984
I admire your brass balls ladm9.
>> No. 36989 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 4:05 pm
36989 spacer
>>36986
How do you expect sovereign nations to stop being sovereign and applying to join NATO? Agreeing with Russia's demands essentially means eastern Europe is part of Russia.
>> No. 36990 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 4:55 pm
36990 spacer
>>36989

I think your question is very much based on a false premise. It makes about as much sense as saying those countries in NATO are part of the US.
>> No. 36991 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 5:24 pm
36991 spacer
>>36986

>It really seems like we're being geared up for war, primed to see Russia as the enemy.

Russia have already invaded Ukraine. They might strenuously deny it, but there is irrefutable evidence that Russian special forces and mercenaries have been acting in Crimea and Donbas since 2014.

NATO rules specifically disallow membership to countries with an active territorial dispute, making Ukraine ineligible to join. However you slice it, Russia are the aggressor in this situation and acting unlawfully.
>> No. 36992 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 6:19 pm
36992 spacer
>>36987

>Annexing a chunk of a country like it's 1938 and running a low-intensity conflict in another nation's borders that has created 1.5 million refugees will do that


Maybe, but in this case, so far at least it has all just been a big hyped up nothing. Putin does a little flex on Ukraine's doorstep, and the West's intelligence and media completely run with all kinds of horror scenarios which, in fairness, don't seem all that likely to materialise. It may be good for newspaper and TV readership and viewership numbers, and to reinforce the image of Russia as the evil empire, but it really borders on mass delusion by now.

And Putin isn't actually going to send his 100,000 men to invade Ukraine because he knows there is a high risk of it ending up like Afghanistan. The reason why the Soviet-Afghan War played an instrumental part in the Soviet Union's demise was that the Soviets spent themselves to death trying to gain the upper hand, while the U.S. was secretly supplying wholesale weaponry to the Mujahideen the whole time, thus dragging out a conflict that should have lasted no more than a year or two to last ten years.

The Ukrainians today also wouldn't go down without a fight, and they would likely receive oodles more weapons than they'd ever need from NATO and the U.S., without the two getting directly involved, resulting in the exact same kind of quagmire for the Russians as Afghanistan.

And not wanting to slip into too much Putinsplaining here, but NATO has quite openly a geographical containment strategy against Russia. Which isn't limited to NATO's eastern expansion in Europe, but also extends to increased military presence in recent years and decades in southern Eurasia and East Asia. Imagine if the Russians did that. They're already painted as the scourge of world peace by gathering 100,000 soldiers on their own soil near a neighbouring country's border, so far with no stated intent but to hold a large-scale military exercise. While the U.S. sent half its Navy down to the Caribbean and openly threatened nuclear war when the Soviets shipped missiles to Cuba. And it should not be forgotten that the Russian missiles in Cuba were a direct response to NATO having Jupiter ballistic missiles stationed in Turkey and Italy, each equipped with a 1.5 Mt warhead targeted at Moscow and many other cities in western Russia. These missiles were all very quietly taken down, as part of the agreement to remove the Russian missiles from Cuba. But you don't ever hear much about that in History Channel documentaries.
>> No. 36993 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 6:38 pm
36993 spacer
>>36992
I would argue that annexing thousands of square miles of a neighbouring country, in violation of international law, is actually quite a large flex. It's certainly a bigger flex than anything NATO has done to Russia lately.
>> No. 36994 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 6:55 pm
36994 spacer
>>36993

Nicking a small corner off someone else's country is still not a large flex. Not a small one either, but it's not a large flex.
>> No. 36995 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 7:00 pm
36995 spacer
>>36994
Has anyone done that since WW2 other than Russia (multiple times by the way)? Are you a RussianBot by any chance?
>> No. 36996 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 7:03 pm
36996 spacer
>>36994
I also find it funny that you call nicking an area larger than Wales, just a minor flex.
>> No. 36997 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 7:14 pm
36997 spacer
>>36996
Even England could nick an area the size of Wales. It needs to be at least several times that to be a proper flex.
>> No. 36998 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 7:23 pm
36998 spacer
>>36995
Israel.
>> No. 36999 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 7:47 pm
36999 spacer
>>36996

I called it "not a large flex. Not a small one either".

The Ukraine is also a lot bigger than the UK in relation to Wales.


Total land area of Ukraine: 233,062 sq mi

Land area of Crimea: 10,000 sq mi (~4.2%)


Total land area of the UK: 93,628 sq mi

Land area of Wales: 8,023 sq mi (~ 8.5%)
>> No. 37000 Anonymous
15th February 2022
Tuesday 9:03 pm
37000 spacer
>>36999
Is that how far you want to go to justify the annexation, RussianBotLad?
>> No. 37001 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 12:47 pm
37001 spacer
>>36954
Are they doing it yet? Or have we been betrayed by the duplicitous Western media? Or even, were the Russians really going to invade today, then called it off to make our media look stupid, so we no longer trust them when they [I]do[I] invade?
>> No. 37002 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 3:14 pm
37002 spacer
>>37001
I'll reply to myself again, since my post seems more sarcastic and aggressive than I meant it to. There are now videos of tanks leaving Crimea, and pulling away from Ukraine, but NATO and the Americans are saying that this is all fake, and that actually, if anything, Russian troop numbers are increasing on the border with Ukraine. I really am very confused right now.
>> No. 37003 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 3:14 pm
37003 spacer
I dunno, I kind of feel like there was never any real intention to invade, but simply an attempt to make the West look like charlatans.

I mean it doesn't really cost anything to have a bunch of tanks and soldiers sat there on the border looking like they could invade at any minute, and sit back to watch as America loses its shit for months on end while at the same time displaying complete impotence to do anything about it.

Both sides are playing a pretty cynical game here- The west wants Russia encircled, Russia wants a sphere of inbendsence to retain some global heft. But the West is definitely the one coming out of this looking like our towel fell down.
>> No. 37004 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 3:23 pm
37004 spacer
>>37002
There were reports about a week ago about Russia potentially deploying fake footage. Of course, we didn't get to see what that footage was or what it depicted, for good reason. For the same reason, NATO aren't going to confirm or deny whether what we're seeing is that fakery.
>> No. 37005 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 3:28 pm
37005 spacer
>>37003
>I dunno, I kind of feel like there was never any real intention to invade, but simply an attempt to make the West look like charlatans.
You should probably stop watching RT.
>> No. 37006 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 5:03 pm
37006 spacer
>>37005
I don't know; he could be right. Putin certainly has a track record of manipulating foreign media and.spreading the message that they can't be trusted. If he can make the West look like a bunch of mugs, that's great news for him. And remember that if he does want to invade, he's effectively inviting the entire world to treat his government like that of Afghanistan in terms of how unwelcome they would be, all in exchange for some space, which they have plenty of already, in one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in Europe. Eastern Ukraine is hardly prime real estate for any government other than the Ukrainian one.
>> No. 37007 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 5:09 pm
37007 spacer
>>37006
>If he can make the West look like a bunch of mugs
For what? Responding to a credible threat of invasion?
>> No. 37008 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 5:22 pm
37008 spacer
>>37007
A credible threat of invasion can easily look like incredible hysteria when the invasion doesn't materialise, especially when the government that found it credible has a record of getting it horribly wrong before (credible evidence of WMD in Iraq) to stain its own credibility.
>> No. 37009 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 5:28 pm
37009 spacer
>>37003

Putin is expanding his sphere of inbendsence, but not in the way the news would suggest.

It's all a charade and the audience are Orban, Duda and Erdoğan. Putin has no intention of a full invasion of Ukraine, because it'd be far too costly for far too little gain. The point of the exercise is to send a message to populist leaders (and their electorates) in Eastern Europe - that the major NATO powers consider them to be expendable and that their future security depends on closer ties with Russia, not the west.

If Putin can gradually turn Poland and Hungary into Belarus-esque puppet states, then dominating Ukraine is a fait accompli. Russia get to punch a massive hole in NATO's eastern frontier without a shot being fired.
>> No. 37010 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 5:50 pm
37010 spacer
>>37008
>(credible evidence of WMD in Iraq)
My calendar says it's 2022. What does yours say?
>> No. 37011 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 6:11 pm
37011 spacer
>>37010
I'm not sure, I can't read it because my bastard 6 year old has written "people can remember things and make inferences from them in the future" in black ink over the entire calendar part, leaving it as nothing but a collection of poorly framed shots of Australia's four landmarks.
>> No. 37012 Anonymous
16th February 2022
Wednesday 7:28 pm
37012 spacer
>>37011
>"people can remember things and make inferences from them in the future"

Is this a wordfilter, or do you have a really precocious kid?
>> No. 37013 Anonymous
17th February 2022
Thursday 8:02 am
37013 spacer
>>37008
This situation is completely different. Russia doesn’t deny it has troops surrounding Ukraine and no country, anywhere, has said it will send forces to protect them if an invasion did take place. That second point is also why talk of WW3 is so silly too, you’re going to need more than two countries for a world war.
>> No. 37016 Anonymous
17th February 2022
Thursday 4:23 pm
37016 spacer
>>37007

Well yes, duncelad. It wouldn't be much of a gambit if the West just immediately sussed "nah, he's bullshitting" would it? Christ.
>> No. 37020 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 9:53 am
37020 spacer
>>37016
I don't get it. There's a credible threat of invasion, and every indication that Putin means it. Do the fire service look like mugs when they turn up to a hoax call?
>> No. 37021 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 11:27 am
37021 spacer
>>37020

This is a faulty analogy because the fire service would at least show up to a hoax call.

That's the point you're missing. The west (or at least the Americans) look like mugs over this because of how much noise they're making despite expressly ruling out even the possibility of showing up, because they know they can't.

The longer it goes on, the more of a floppy dick we look.
>> No. 37022 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 1:42 pm
37022 spacer
>>37013

> Russia doesn’t deny it has troops surrounding Ukraine

Yes, but that isn't the point, is it. The point is if Russia will attack Ukraine or not.

So far, all we have to go on is the West carrying itself like a bunch of headless chickens in reiterating over and over again the alleged imminent threat of a Russian invasion, while Russia denies such plans. We're not talking about Russian troops that are already in Crimea and with some degree of probability in the Donbas, but a full-scale hostile military invasion.

If the Russians actually end up not invading Ukraine and withdrawing their troops because it all really was just a large-scale exercise, then NATO and Western governments will all end up looking like right twats.

Let's just see how everything unfolds. Part of me believes that the West just wants to goad Putin into an invasion. They're essentially presenting the Ukraine to Putin on a silver platter by saying look, we've flown out all our diplomats and other local personnel, and we won't send in NATO troops if you attack.
>> No. 37024 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 2:26 pm
37024 spacer
Would Russia look like twats if NATO didn't attack them? Because NATO isn't going to. So perhaps looking like a twat isn't the end of the world in terms of international diplomacy.
>> No. 37025 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 2:40 pm
37025 spacer
>>37024

What I meant was, what's missing from the narrative of an unstable rogue leader threatening world peace is that Putin hasn't made any open threats to attack Ukraine. He has spoken out vociferously against NATO's eastern expansion and has said that Russia would be prepared to defend its interests both with diplomacy and its military might. But that isn't the same as a direct threat to attack and invade Ukraine. And in the absence of that, all we ever hear is warnings from Western governments and NATO that an attack is directly at hand in the next few days. So far, with no results. Which leads me to believe that the West is really overdramatising the situation because it hopes to achieve political gain from it.
>> No. 37026 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 2:44 pm
37026 spacer
>>37025
That's exactly what Putin wants you to think.

He hasn't made explicit threats against Ukraine, but he has, repeatedly, said the equivalent of "Nice country you have there, it would be a shame if anything happened to it."
>> No. 37027 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 2:56 pm
37027 spacer
>>37026

In the end, the proof of the Putin pudding is still in the eating. The West is placing its bets on a Ukraine invasion, but it will still make itself look stuipid if that invasion never happens. And to paint over the fact that NATO and Western governments incorrectly predicted an invasion, they'll probably reframe it as their diplomatic success that it didn't happen. Which would be more than a little bit dishonest.
>> No. 37029 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 3:03 pm
37029 spacer
>>37027
Mate, just take your 5 rubles and fuck off already.
>> No. 37032 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 5:16 pm
37032 spacer
>>37020
This hinges on the credbility of the threat, which can always be contested in hindsight. People aren't probability computers, there's a reason they're lazy with seatbelts.

>>37024
The domestic politics of looking like a twat differs from country to country. In NATO countries, by and large, if nothing happens things look like unwarranted panic. In Russia, it's much easier to steer it to look like unwarranted hostility from NATO, even if you started it.

>>37026
>>37029
If, no matter what happens, "that's what putin wants you to think", why is it so implausible that he could set up another win-win situation for himself? Set up a probable invasion, judge the reaction, then either back down (making the reaction look like an overreaction), or, if there's no reaction, invade and grab a nice chunk of land.

It's bizarre that we can imagine posters and politicians are in his pocket, uncritically repeating lines practically penned by himself, but the moment you suggest the man might actually have had a clever strategy going into this that's proof you're on his side.
>> No. 37033 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 5:44 pm
37033 spacer
>>37025

>Putin hasn't made any open threats to attack Ukraine

Putin has already attacked Ukraine. He has invaded and annexed Crimea. Donbas has been taken over by a Russian-backed separatist army that calls itself "New Russia". The leader of that separatist government is a card-carrying member of Putin's party. 13,000 people have died in the conflict. There's fighting happening right now.

The troops massing on the border aren't threatening to start a war, they're threatening to escalate a war that has been going on for nearly eight years.
>> No. 37034 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 5:49 pm
37034 spacer
Regardless of how the fervent Yank-wankers ITT want to feel about it, it already is a win win for Putin.

He doesn't have to do anything. He just puts his tanks and artillery and loads and loads of soldiers on the border, when goes "What? I can put my soldiers wherever I want, it's my own country isn't it?" and in technical terms, he's absolutely right.

Every minute he leaves them there without invading when the Yanks keep saying "Invasion TUESDAY!" is a propaganda victory for him, essentially. "Me? Invade? Oh, would you just look at how impolite these Americans are! My army is just minding it's own business, completely harmlessly, six inches from the Ukrainian border. It's like the US wants me to invade!"

Meanwhile day after day we do nothing, continue to do nothing, and explicitly broadcast to the world our intention to do nothing. But if he does! if he does! Why, we'll... We'll... We'll huff, and we'll puff, and we'll... Impose economic sanctions! Thus reassuring all the countries we want to remain friendly and allied to us in eastern Europe that we're definitely going to stick our necks out for them if it ever comes to it. Because they're in NATO, so that's totally different, isn't it. We'd definitely start WW3 over them, just not Ukraine.

Will some of you take off your red vs blue sports team glasses for a minute and stand back to look at the bigger picture?
>> No. 37035 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:00 pm
37035 spacer
>>37034
See, this is like the "casus belli" wankery you can find elsewhere. It's herd insanity at a grand scale, nothing more and nothing less. The dress up game people who cannot accept that humans are fucked play doesn't change that. Just like that prince's death didn't kick off a war, if bullets start flying it's psychos leading psychos inexplicably following orders given by psychos.
>> No. 37036 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:03 pm
37036 spacer
>>37032

> It's bizarre that we can imagine posters and politicians are in his pocket, uncritically repeating lines practically penned by himself, but the moment you suggest the man might actually have had a clever strategy going into this that's proof you're on his side.

This. In any game of strategy, the biggest way you can set yourself up to lose from the word go is a) by underestimating your opponent's capabilities and b) by believing too much in your own, and thinking you've got your opponent all figured out.

In other words, whatever else you think of Putin, you have to accept what allies and adversaries alike have always said about him, and that is that he is a brilliant strategist. And realistically, you don't get to the top of an ailing democracy-turned autocracy just by playing nice. Putin is President of Russia with an estimated personal wealth of more than $100 billion because he has spent a lifetime scheming, forging alliances and outsmarting rivals, to a point where his power is absolute. Even in a failed democracy like Russia, that is no mean feat. To then think that Putin somehow just doesn't have it in him to show up the West and to make it and NATO look bad as a result of this crisis is just negligent.


>then either back down (making the reaction look like an overreaction), or, if there's no reaction, invade and grab a nice chunk of land.

Exactly right. And the gamble that the West is taking right now is that it is pretty much handing the Ukraine to Putin's troops, because all foreign personnel has been flown out or told to leave the country, and Putin has been guaranteed that NATO forces will not intervene against Russia, for obvious reasons. The West naturally doesn't like the idea of Putin invading and taking over Ukraine, but they're also not really doing anything to stop him. And once the Russian army controls the territory in a meaningful way, there is also going to be no way for Ukraine to receive new weapon supplies to continue fighting off the Russians on their own.

In the end, the Ukraine is too unimportant for the U.S., which still calls the shots in NATO, to start WW3 over. NATO's containment strategy against Russia is already in place and will work with or without Ukraine being a part of NATO's eastern flank.

If Putin chooses to invade Ukraine, the most likely outcome is going to be crippling sanctions against Russia and a wave of bitter condemnation and disgust from Western politics, but Putin will get to keep Ukraine and possibly incorporate it into Russian territory like they have done with Crimea. The only way to stop it from happening, again, would be WW3.
>> No. 37037 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:22 pm
37037 spacer
>>37032
>It's bizarre that we can imagine posters and politicians are in his pocket, uncritically repeating lines practically penned by himself, but the moment you suggest the man might actually have had a clever strategy going into this that's proof you're on his side.
Nobody's suggesting he doesn't have a clever strategy. Some Russiabot keeps harping on about how the West are apparently mugs for rising to Putin's sabre-rattling when in fact he's making a credible threat that he's perfectly capable of following up on, given he's literally done it before.

The Russians aren't stupid. They already know that NATO isn't sitting idly by. They already know that supplies are incoming. They already know that Ukraine is preparing its troops and training civilians in guerilla warfare. Putin knows he has second move advantage. He knows he can basically swing his massive dick around as much as he likes.
>> No. 37038 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:37 pm
37038 spacer
>>37037

> when in fact he's making a credible threat that he's perfectly capable of following up on, given he's literally done it before.

So far, he isn't making a threat, at least with respect to actually invading Ukraine. And nobody said that he's not capable of following up on it. But that's exactly part of his strategy. Everybody knows that he's capable of just invading a neighbouring country and taking a chunk out of it, as he has shown with Crimea.


What worries me is that Western politicians are now saying Putin could be looking to stage a false-flag operation as a cause for war. Some sort of very minor incident or attack on Russian forces upon which Putin would then declare his right to start a war against Ukraine after all. The problem with that is that it goes both ways. If such a minor attack is a false-flag operation or is really carried out by the West and then blamed on Russia as a false-flag attack is something you will not be able to unpick once one thing leads to another and we've actually got a full-blown war on our hands.
>> No. 37039 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:38 pm
37039 spacer
>>37037

You can go "durr russiabot" all you want, but the point is the west DO look like mugs, because they're playing right into his hands. They're giving him exactly what he wants.

Yes, it's a credible threat. Of course it's a credible threat. That's the fucking point. Let's say you're robbing a bank- Do you use a realistic replica firearm, or a bright orange water pistol? You don't intend to kill anyone, but you won't get far if you don't at least look like you might.

You don't have to support Russia to say the West has cocked this right up. As someone who lives in the West, I'd very much like us to remain the dominant global force, maintain our relative prosperity, and live in security. The reason to be angry with our diplomats right now is because they're putting all that at risk by being such inept fucking twats.

How dense are you lad.
>> No. 37040 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:45 pm
37040 spacer
>>37039

>You can go "durr russiabot" all you want

What's that about anyway. I'm by all means not a Russian bot, nor some sort of Kremlin-paid social media comment poster. I'm just somebody who likes his own take on many things.

It bewilders me that .gs is normally a place that encourages people to feel at home with their off the wall and non-mainstream ideas, but that that somehow doesn't go for any discussion we have about politics. Are we really still nothing more than Airstrip One in this country?
>> No. 37041 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:53 pm
37041 spacer
>>37038
>So far, he isn't making a threat
I don't know, turning up at a meeting you weren't invited to and telling NATO and the EU to fuck off, and then massing substantial numbers of troops on the border sounds suspiciously like a threat to me.

>What worries me is that Western politicians are now saying Putin could be looking to stage a false-flag operation as a cause for war.
You say "looking to", it literally happened earlier today. Civilians were evacuated from the rebel provinces to Russia, then Russian state media all reported simultaneously that there had been an attack.
>> No. 37042 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 6:57 pm
37042 spacer
>>37039
>Yes, it's a credible threat. Of course it's a credible threat. That's the fucking point.
Right. And so the West has to respond to it.

>The reason to be angry with our diplomats right now is because they're putting all that at risk by being such inept fucking twats.
Do go on. Please, give us an abstract of your forthcoming paper in the Britfa.gs Journal of Foreign Policy and Diplomacy.
>> No. 37043 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:00 pm
37043 spacer
>>37040

Probably similar sorts of lads who were dead set on pretending the rednecks tazing themselves in the balls on January 6th last year were in fact daft militant wogs instigating a genuine and serious coup against the US government. Bonafide patriots.
>> No. 37044 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:16 pm
37044 spacer

ukraine divided.jpg
370443704437044
Half of the Ukraine is basically Russia. The only real solution for this quagmire of a nation is neutrality and federalisation.

Regards,
Putinshill/Kremlinbot
>> No. 37045 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:34 pm
37045 spacer
>>37038
>The problem with [a false-flag attack] is that it goes both ways
I'm completely with you on this. So far, we're getting reports that some shells were fired at a Ukrainian kindergarten. That's unspeakably evil and I'm sure we're all aghast at the evil Russians firing their death bombs at all the cute widdle kiddies, but if you were Russia, why on Earth would you pick a kindergarten to shoot at? It's like the Gulf War thing where Iraqi soldiers supposedly went into that hospital and threw all the babies in incubators out of the windows, except if they then left and didn't do any more fighting. All it would achieve, from a military perspective, is to make absolutely everyone furious at you while gaining absolutely nothing. It's a terrible way to start a war. And, for anyone not aware, the incubators story was a lie too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony#Investigations

I don't think Putin could win a real war. He prefers to fight media wars, because he's very good at those, and he's winning this one. I second-guess everything our own media tells me now, even though I remain confident that Putin is the bad guy and we're the goodies. Justice is on our side, but our news is looking much more duplicitous and fake than it normally does, and that's a very weird coincidence when we're on the brink of war with the king of making people not trust the news.
>> No. 37046 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:37 pm
37046 spacer
>>37044

Even if you're not a kremlinbot, you have to recognise that Ukraine's strong Russian minority complicates things.
>> No. 37047 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:41 pm
37047 spacer
>>37040
I don't personally think you're being paid to hold these beliefs (and that's if it's just you defending Putin, which it might not be). But there are plenty of left-wing old-skool commies, like Jeremy Corbyn's own personal Dominic Cummings Seumas Milne, who are very suspiciously pro-Russia. Left-wing old-skool commies are the heart of this community, and I think you are Seumas Milne or at least very much aligned with him. Unfortunately, loving Mother Russia is not a very common left-wing ideal these days.
>> No. 37048 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:44 pm
37048 spacer
>>37042
>And so the West has to respond to it.
It doesn't have to, it could choose Charybdis over Scylla. That whichever choice it makes is a terrible one is why it's a clever trick.
>> No. 37049 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 7:59 pm
37049 spacer

meeester pryesedyent.jpg
370493704937049
>>37047

You are aware that the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, right, Pentagonlad? This is not uncle Joe the red menace we are talking about, modern Russia doesn't even pretend to be sort-of-but-not-really communist like China does. It's extremely right wing and every bit as capitalist as the good ol' US of A.

That being the case, I'm not sure why you think those of the lefty persuasion might be pro-Russia, but on the other hand, I do think the inability to wake up to this reality does explain a lot about America's attitudes towards them. The old bear is a shadow of its former self, and America should really rather be keeping its eye on the sleeping dragon; but out of a perverse sense of pride and racial chauvinism, it doesn't want to let go of Ivan as the great enemy, and admit it should really be the slanty eyed insect people who make the iPhone.
>> No. 37050 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 8:35 pm
37050 spacer
>>37045

I refer you to >>38033. The big lie from our side is that this is a new situation rather than an escalation of an old one. Eastern Ukraine has been shelled to buggery for years. They're saying "shelling has started" rather than "the shelling is heavier than usual", because they don't want to admit that they were ignoring a war for years. By "they" I mean politicians, diplomats and the media - they're all complicit in turning a blind eye.
>> No. 37051 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 8:36 pm
37051 spacer
>>37050

*>>37033
>> No. 37052 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 8:54 pm
37052 spacer
>>37049

The world was a simpler place when Russia still fit the enemy stereotype of the evil commies who kept their people in slavery and without democratic rights - and the spoils of capitalism, because they were denied their four-bedroom home in the suburbs with a custom kitchen and a big Chrysler V8 in the driveway.

While consumerism and participation in capitalism have always at least tacitly been seen as the epitome of an individual exercising their democratic freedoms, Russia nowadays is by no stretch of the word an actual democracy, but it is ruthlessly capitalist nonetheless. It far outranks countries like the United States in socioeconomic inequality of its people, and of course virtually all Western European market economies.

It's interesting that nobody attacks Russia for its ruthless capitalism, but that the criticism of its system tends to center around it being a failed democracy. Which it is by all means, or has at least become in the last 20 years with Putin in power. And that's decidedly not a minor problem. But I guess you still need a good narrative of "us vs. them". So that next to all its neo-imperialistic aspirations (with which it is far from alone), there is a sense established that Russia isn't like us and that it's the enemy or at least an antagonist or adversary because it isn't. While a lack of democracy, on the other hand, is often openly tolerated by the West in other corners of the globe, e.g. in places of Saudi Arabia, because they are a friendly regime.

I guess what I am saying is, without a proper sense of relativism, you're just going to fall into that habit of "us vs. them". When in reality, the world is rarely that black and white.
>> No. 37053 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 9:07 pm
37053 spacer
>>37052

The term "democracy" itself is a funny one, when you think about what it means when used by different facets of the state/media/propaganda machine.

On the one hand it means the freedom of a people to choose their leaders, and therefore ultimately express their will, as is good and proper, according to the largely liberal values we have attempted to impress upon the globe. But on the other, it also tacitly stands for a certain kind of free market economy, a certain model of government, a certain style of doing things, wearing suits and being just generally quite decidedly Anglo. It implicitly means being aligned with the West, the "shared international order" and all that. In some ways, it's sort of a dogwhistle. A country being democratic means they are like us. If they're not democratic, they're one of the baddies (unless they're our pet baddies like Gadaffi).

In that way I have cynically pondered, at times, whether a country being democratic is important solely because it means they are within our sphere of inbendsence. Our media can saturate their news, our intelligence agencies can inbendsence their politics. We can pull the strings without really having to get our hands dirty at all. And that doesn't work if you're not democratic.

With countries like Russia, Iran, North Korea et al... Their real sin is that we don't have a hold on them.
>> No. 37054 Anonymous
18th February 2022
Friday 9:38 pm
37054 spacer
>>37053

I think you're spot on in that the "democratic" West somehow only accepts political systems as equal which follow and abide by a quite narrow set of political and socioeconomic tenets.

While one thing that falls flat on its face at the first hurdle is that a country is free to choose its leaders. It's the idea that a freely chosen leader must be democratic and in the end also pro-capitalist and pro-liberal. One instance where all that was led ad absurdum was the 1970 Chilean elections where the Chilean people freely elected a socialist head of state. The U.S. back then tolerated socialist governments in the Americas as little as they do today, and the coup that followed in 1973 where Pinochet was put in power by a CIA-backed military junta brought the Chilean people anything but freedom and democracy.

Other more recent examples are the U.S.'s involvement in Venezuela's domestic affairs to the point where without any legal basis, they suddenly declared the opposition leader the country's rightful president.

Or the Greek elections during Austerity where the Greeks elected a socialist president who showed the middle finger to Merkelian market radicalism and rolled back many of the austerity measures imposed by the EU. Or when Portugal elected a left-wing government in the 2010s which led the country back to a balanced budget despite rejecting austerity measures.

So the West is essentially saying you're free to elect your leaders, as long as you don't elect those kinds of leaders. And to be clear, we're not talking about the German people freely electing Hitler in 1933. It's about refusing to accept that a socialist government can be freely elected by the people, because socialism, for all its shortcomings and its general undesirability, somehow violates the principle that free elections and capitalism must go together.

But if you limit freedom of choice to a handful of options that suit the West's economic ideology, then you're really less free than you think.
>> No. 37055 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 4:43 am
37055 spacer
>>37054
I often think about a Peter Mandelson quote:
>No serious challenge on the Left exists to Third Way thinking anywhere in the world. This is hardly surprising as globalisation punishes hard any country that tries to run its economy by ignoring the realities of the market or prudent public finances. In this strictly narrow sense, and in the urgent need to remove rigidities and incorporate flexibility in capital, product and labour markets, we are all "Thatcherite" now.
Every time I read it, without fail, I mentally interject "then what is the point of Democracy?" after the italics. Is it for deciding social issues? Is it just for picking which face puts forward similar policies? Is it for fiddling at the edges? Is it just too hard to replace? Or is it just a fetish, a cargo-cult ritual with purely spiritual meaning?

And despite my left-wing instincts, those questions seem even stronger from the right - if you accept that the market holds the veto anyway, that it's urgent to do as the market wants or you'll be punished, why not simply leave everything to the market? Why waste all that money on a democracy without the ability to vote down market decisions when you could put that money in people's pockets and boost their ability to vote with their wallets? I can see a million objections to that idea, but none consistent with Mr. Mandelson's logic.
>> No. 37056 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 4:06 pm
37056 spacer
>>37055

While it's a good thing that the Communist Bloc and the Soviet Union as the motherland of socialism are no more, the problem is that it instilled a sense of hubris in the Western world that its system of a democratic capitalist market economy survived because of its superiority over communism. I would even argue that it's actually true that communism was the inferior system. But Soviet communism didn't fail because it was the inferior system, but because the Soviet Union was bankrupt (in no small part due to the enormous military budget as a result of the Soviet-Afghan War) and because communist governments in the Soviet Union's satellite states dug their heels in against much needed social and political reforms. It's worth noting that in history, revolutions didn't always only arise against socialist governments, but against capitalist/pro-market governments as well. And believe it or not, in some of the Soviet satellite states during the 1989 revolutions, there were actually still strong pro-socialist movements which wanted to keep socialism, but under different conditions. Their objectives were to oust their country's current leadership and political elite, but not universally to end socialism.

The reason why capitalism's hubris is a problem is that it likes to tout itself as the one and only true gospel. In my opinion, and having spent a good amount of time in Yankland, it's no coincidence that Americans are the main proponents of global market liberalism. American-style religious evangelism and market liberalism are really two sides of the same coin of a country which wants to spread its own ideals, both economic and religious, across the globe. It believes those to be the only God-given truth. What plays into it very substantially is Americans' ignorance towards other cultures and their inability to comprehend them. So what American-style market liberalism does is that it seeks to conquer by assimilation. It wants to establish similar conditions in countries across the globe so that economies function the same way as the American one, and so that there is less friction when doing business with those countries and exploiting their resources.

And much like religious evangelism which tolerates no other religions beside it, market liberalism isn't happy seeing countries and democracies function based on different principles than its own. It's one reason why the Americans were grappling so much with the reinsurgence of socialism in the Americas in the early 2000s, but by extension also why the European Commission struggled to accept the emergence of freely elected left-wing/socialist governments in Greece and Portugal during Austerity.


>if you accept that the market holds the veto anyway, that it's urgent to do as the market wants or you'll be punished, why not simply leave everything to the market?

There is a whole discipline in economics that concerns itself with reasons why that is a bad idea. Basically, if you completely give markets free rein, you will end up with extreme inequality and wealth distribution, which is then irreconcilable with democracy as we understand it, or at least pretend to understand it. It can then erode that democracy and cause political unrest, which, in turn, is bad for business.

Some theories even posit that markets could not function for long at all without (democratic) institutions in place to bridle capitalism's excesses that it is prone to.

What market-radical liberalism gets wrong in our time is that it doesn't just see a functioning democracy as the necessary underpinning of a stable capitalist economy, and maybe even as an intrinsic ideal for its own sake, but that that democracy's primary purpose altogether is to ensure the functioning of liberal markets. And because popular vote and what the people in a democracy want isn't necessarily always what the big economic actors want, there is bound to be friction.
>> No. 37057 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 4:19 pm
37057 spacer
>>37056

I once had a thought that what if we can take the principles of free market liberalism, and political democracy, and literally fuse them together via the mantra vote with your wallet.

Think about the way you choose which energy company you're with- Even though it's a totally absurd concept, because the same leccy comes down the same wires from the same station, somehow we've democratised the energy grid through the free market.

So why not do it for government? You could subscribe for citizenship of whichever one appeals to you the most. If your party starts throwing parties in lockdown or you suspect their front-benchers are all fiddling kids, you just switch to a different provider, and become a citizen of another government.

I think this is the future. There's something in it. When we all live hooked on the VR pipes delivering fully immersive 3D furry porn direct to our sponge, what use will physical borders be anyway?
>> No. 37058 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 4:39 pm
37058 spacer
>>37055
>then what is the point of Democracy?
I have been thinking while reading the past couple of posts, about what democracy really means, back to when I was at school, aged 16-17 like all edgy yutes, and I challenged my Philosophy teacher about this political consensus. This education happened outside the UK, so maybe yours was different.

My Philosophy teacher taught us the usual stuff in the book that I didn't really care about, at the time, and when it all got political, the message was, "This is theocracy, this is autocracy, this is oligarchy, but this, this right here, this is democracy, where everybody votes and that's how the government decides what to do. And that's the absolute best, and you always get your way every time, and in this classroom, where you are encouraged to debate the pros and cons of every ideology and political system, you must not question this. Democracy is the best, it gives you everything, and that is non-negotiable." Maybe that's not exactly what I was taught, but my description of it 18 years later is pretty close to how it felt at the time, and you better believe I kicked off. I wasn't standing for this shit. Everyone turned on me; they were all indoctrinated too. They had no arguments, just, "B-b-b-but MUH DEMOCRACY!" Such a lively debate must have been a dream for the teacher, except he joined in, chatting shit and calling me a fool for questioning the accepted wisdom.

Nowadays, I'm not like that. I know that democracy, really, just means voting, but I too use the word as a shorthand for "the right way" for anything political. When the Iranian people vote in a hardline extremist, that's no good; they need democracy. Not the voting system that they have, which is perfectly free within some very strict limitations, but real democracy, where they vote how I would vote. Google and Amazon are so powerful they can act unilaterally to inbendsence government policy without asking anyone else; that's the sign a good proper democracy. Brexit wasn't democracy; it was a bad idea and therefore all those votes weren't real democracy. Democracy, now, is just whatever the right answer is, and so the wrong answer by definition cannot be democracy. It's like science for all those people who Fucking Love Science.

And again, I mentioned Iran above. Which of the following was more democratic: Iran under the Shah, a pro-Western literal king who made Iran into a popular and welcome player on the international stage, or Iran under Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an extremist who called America "The Great Satan" and made multiple speeches about nuking Israel, but who did in fact win elections?

I have never in my life missed an opportunity to vote, but I almost never pick a winner and I almost never get my way. But we're still better than Russia because I'm freer than I would be there. But isn't it weird how successfully society has convinced me, without actually giving me anything to persuade me?
>> No. 37059 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 5:27 pm
37059 spacer
>>37058
>inbendsence
Why do you keep doing this across the whole thread?
>> No. 37060 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 5:35 pm
37060 spacer
>>37059
That's the first time I, personally, have done that, I think. Sorry. I also forgot to sage even though a long essay all about myself is something I would encourage others to sage.
>> No. 37061 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 5:36 pm
37061 spacer
>>37059
Are you sure it's on purpose? Could be a conbendsence of bendskes.
>> No. 37062 Anonymous
19th February 2022
Saturday 7:08 pm
37062 spacer
>>37059

Our mods in their infinite wisdom sometimes like us to forsake certain combinations of letters, no matter what context they may appear in, for they are forbidden runes that shall bring out the devil.

Keep that in mind when you next go for your bends jab.
>> No. 37063 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 12:26 am
37063 spacer
>>37058
>Iran under Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an extremist who called America "The Great Satan" and made multiple speeches about nuking Israel, but who did in fact win elections?
This is facile. Kim Jong-il won multiple elections, but nobody's about to paint DPRK as democratic other than themselves.
>> No. 37064 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 4:54 am
37064 spacer
>>37063
In fairness, it might be fun to think about the matter of degree - and to what degree it applies in the DPRK.
My recollection is that in the USSR, although you'd always have the one nominated CPSU candidate, it was a perfectly valid option to vote against him or to not vote for him, and if he didn't get half the vote he wouldn't get in and you'd get a new candidate, so they did have to make a bit of an effort. North Korea is probably much worse, but there could always be more to it than it seems, even if nobody's pretending Kim Jong Un is elected.
Maybe you could even be cheeky and pick out a few UK MPs who're so useless, but in seats so safe, that they're probably less "democratically elected" than the candidate from the most assertive Soviet constituency, since nobody here's going to be kicked out for uselessness if their rosette matches the right candidate for PM.
>> No. 37065 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 10:58 am
37065 spacer
>>37064

Elections in the DPRK have a single candidate for each seat. You can spoil your ballot, but there's no secrecy. The whole thing is of course a complete mockery of democracy, but it's quite a useful exercise for the party, as they get a neatly compiled list of traitors.

Officially, their elections have 99.99% turnout with 100% of votes being cast for the approved candidate.
>> No. 37066 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 12:50 pm
37066 spacer
>>37065

>Officially, their elections have 99.99% turnout with 100% of votes being cast for the approved candidate.

Similar to the German Democratic Republic in its final throes. It held its final general elections in spring of 1989 under the old regime, unbeknownst to everybody at the time, and had both a voter turnout and a ballot approval rate in the upper 90 percent. Except by that time, discontent among its people was already growing, and the opposition movement was able to prove that the government had commited voting fraud on an enormous scale by forging the numbers. Which only increased the people's wrath and was an important catalyst in the run-up to the peaceful revolution that autumn.

On the other hand, in faux-democracy communist countries, voter turnout is actually higher than in Britain where barely two-thirds of the electorate can be arsed to go. Because people fear the repercussions if they don't vote. There was a woman on a documentary about the German Democratic Republic, and she said that as a school teacher and thus somebody who was entrusted by the state with instilling socialist ideology into her pupils, she was simply expected to vote. And by the afternoon of that election day in 1989 when she still hadn't turned up to vote, the government sent secret police to her house to persuade her to go. She refused, and was laid off from her teaching position the next day.
>> No. 37074 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 2:37 pm
37074 spacer
>>36984
>Russian President Vladimir Putin and his ally Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko have extended military drills which were due to end on Sunday.
>At a sandbagged lookout position 24-year-old Taras told us there had been three days of heavy incoming fire. "I think Putin is doing it on purpose to provoke us," he said. "The situation has gotten worse, but we tolerate it, and we wait."
>Ukrainian forces say they have orders not to return fire - except in exceptional cases - as Russia is "looking for any excuse to invade".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60451955

Probably should've sold when I was on a high but I got smug. Now my investment will be tied up for weeks and is dependant on Taras not doing anything silly - I should send him a postcard.
>> No. 37084 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 6:08 pm
37084 spacer
>>37064
>nobody's pretending Kim Jong Un is elected.
He isn't. Kim Jong-un declined to stand in the 2019 election, preferring to focus on his various executive positions.

Iran's elections are not exactly free and fair, mostly the candidates get vetted beforehand. Radical reformers won't be attacked viciously in the press during their campaigns - they just won't be allowed to run.

Putin is in many ways trying to get the band back together. He's trying to go back to the glory days of the USSR, except that unlike those redfash types he's not bothering with the disguise of socialism.
>> No. 37085 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 6:18 pm
37085 spacer
>>37084

Even if he is trying to do that (which I don't think he is, because that would be patently daft when they're all already in NATO and the EU) why is that Britain's problem?

I can see it being the EU's problem and obviously the Americans have a problem with anything that wasn't their express wish. But I don't see why it should bother the world's biggest off-shore tax haven. We want to be mates with everyone we possibly can these days, not pretend we're still the great Empire of old.
>> No. 37087 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 6:26 pm
37087 spacer
>>37085
>Even if he is trying to do that (which I don't think he is, because that would be patently daft when they're all already in NATO and the EU)
Belarus has a "Union State" agreement with Russia, which is basically the beginnings of a return to the Union. He's made manoeuvres on Ukraine and Georgia. Things are looking a bit uneasy in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, which have moved away from Cyrillic, but they're both dictatorships so are pretty easy to bring to heel if necessary. The mere fact of the Baltic states having joined the EU and NATO hasn't stopped him constantly trying to put the willies up them, almost as if to teach them a lesson. He's used it to pressure at least one of them to end their system of not extending citizenship to ethnic Russians unless they learn the local language, which was arguably somewhat unfair, but then again see the Nazi bar analogy which seems to have played out quite nicely in the Donbas.
>> No. 37090 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 8:21 pm
37090 spacer

rdwxbugs9uqq.gif
370903709037090
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60451955

>Russian President Vladimir Putin and his ally Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko have extended military drills which were due to end on Sunday.

>A statement cited the "deterioration of the situation" in east Ukraine as one reason for keeping an estimated 30,000 Russian troops in Belarus.


Was this his strategy all along? Pretending to innocently move 100,000-plus troops into close proximity to Ukraine for an exercise, secretly counting on their presence to cause turmoil in the Donbas, and to then move in because he really "has no choice", given that Russian minorities in Ukraine are suddenly in danger?

Putin has always been known as a shrewd strategist. This would enable him to maintain that it really was just a military exercise, but that things suddenly got bad and something needed to be done, and it then fell on his troops, which out of sheer coincidence just happened to be in the region in the hundreds of thousands.
>> No. 37091 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 8:44 pm
37091 spacer
>>37090
I still think he's trying to do something that will look like a clever move that outsmarted everyone else. What you're suggesting, I think, is what the West is predicting, which is why I don't think he'll do it. It's a crafty plan, but it doesn't have the full 4D chess vibe that I'm expecting.

Maybe it's like those people who stormed the Capitol to make Donald Trump remain President, and Vladimir Putin is just innocently stomping around outside Ukraine to embolden the pro-Russia parts of Ukraine into rising up all on their own. But I can't tell if that's cleverer or much, much dumber.
>> No. 37092 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 8:54 pm
37092 spacer

40413851_401.jpg
370923709237092
>>37091
>Maybe it's like those people who stormed the Capitol to make Donald Trump remain President, and Vladimir Putin is just innocently stomping around outside Ukraine to embolden the pro-Russia parts of Ukraine into rising up all on their own.

Very much that. Friends of mine who visit Russia often describe Putin as most like the ex leader of the UK Independence Party - someone who appeals to baser nationalistic sentiment.
>> No. 37093 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 9:20 pm
37093 spacer
>>37091

It does have that whole "piss on my leg and tell me it's raining" vibe though that Putin is famous for. Like when they had that referendum in Crimea, to give it just a bit of veneer that a whole region with a substantial majority of the vote suddenly wanted to secede from Ukraine because they loved Russia so much.

Up to this point today, I thought maybe the West was just hyperventilating with its warnings of an imminent Russian invasion into Ukraine. But you can't deny that there are threads coming together now that really could end up spelling doom. And it could very realistically result in a new world war. If we just look at how quickly the entire European continent got drawn into WWI because of alliances and assurances that countries would come to each other's aid.

I've been thinking about just effing off to some remote island while there is still time. But realistically, what are you going to do when you're there and there's really a global nuclear war. With all supply routes severed and nuclear winter reaching even the most remote corners of the globe, places like St. Helena would quickly starve and would not be able to sustain a population of locals and other refugees for long. So it's best to just sit back on your sofa in Essex and wait to be vaporised.
>> No. 37094 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 9:30 pm
37094 spacer
>>37093
If I'm going to get nuked, I'm going to get nuked at the pre-nuke orgy in a major British city. The world still owes me the post-coronavirus pandemic orgies that I promised myself. I'm not going to look like the start of Terminator 2 on my bloody own like a mug.

Besides, there is, I assume, still time to learn how to hack into critical Russian infrastructure and make poo come out of all the shower heads. And I can picture no nobler death than dying while doing that.
>> No. 37095 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 9:48 pm
37095 spacer
>>37093
>If we just look at how quickly the entire European continent got drawn into WWI because of alliances and assurances that countries would come to each other's aid.

Everyone's ruled out properly helping Ukraine so it'll be fine. But onto your scenario it would be the northern hemisphere that gets shafted, South America will escape the worst of it although perhaps the living will envy the dead.


>> No. 37096 Anonymous
20th February 2022
Sunday 11:22 pm
37096 spacer
>>37095

>Everyone's ruled out properly helping Ukraine so it'll be fine.

I'm not sure though that the West is actually going to stand by and just watch Putin take Ukraine. Sanctions obviously haven't done anything to make him see the error of his ways, and are unlikely to do so in the future. So they'll probably be looking at more decisive ways of punishing Putin.

Even with no direct involvement of NATO troops in Ukraine, it could end up becoming another proxy war like the Soviet-Afghan War, which gets dragged out because of constant arms deliveries to the Ukrainian military, but with the Afghan quagmire of 1979-89 still in Russian living memory, for somebody like Putin anyway, he's probably not going to let that happen again. At some point, he could just threaten to invade Poland or the Baltic states or whatever NATO country lends active support to the Ukrainians. Of course that would trigger WW3 proper, but as wars can go, even if they are regionally limited at first, often one thing can lead to another.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHLU0Uej1WA
>> No. 37097 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 12:12 am
37097 spacer

61e8c85385f54033174a6a43.jpg
370973709737097
>>37096
So you're saying that, in order to avoid another Afghanistan, Putin will trigger another Great Patriotic War that he is certain to lose and which he doesn't have the forces to even attempt to fight.

Nah, the Russian battleplan was already leaked and involved him taking Ukraine step-by-step with phases for new negotiations. The West knows that the combination of sanctions and military aid to Ukraine raises the cost of war and Russia has historically been cost-sensitive in how it conducts wars. Russia can't even afford to occupy Novorossiya much less with the West supporting the insurgency, it can't afford it in terms of the economic cost nor the soldiers (unless it tries a draft) nor the equipment. So Georgia II.
>> No. 37098 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 1:02 am
37098 spacer
>>37096
>Sanctions obviously haven't done anything to make him see the error of his ways, and are unlikely to do so in the future.
Well, there are sanctions and then there are sanctions. Sanctions are what we've done to Afghanistan, and everyone's starving to death there now. I know there's some international payment system that most people have never heard of (Swift?) which lets banks transfer money internationally or something like that. If we got angry enough with Russia, we could just switch that off and then Russia can't transfer money to other countries, nor receive money from foreign countries, at all. This all sounds incredibly dull, but it would be very harmful to the Russian economy. If it annoys the people enough, he'll have another Russian Revolution on his hands, although to be fair, I can't think of any revolutions off the top of my head that started due to the effects of economic sanctions.

Russia have also spent a lot of money to build Nord Stream 2, so if nobody buys the gas, they're lumbered with a gigantic money sink. Of course, this also means much higher gas prices for all of Europe, and this is why we haven't done it yet. You're absolutely right that sanctions haven't made Vladimir Putin see the error of his ways yet, but he doesn't have to see the error of his ways if all the other Russians can see that they're suddenly broke and can no longer afford their Adidas tracksuits, flat caps and swastika tattoos.
>> No. 37099 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 2:07 pm
37099 spacer
>>37098

>I can't think of any revolutions off the top of my head that started due to the effects of economic sanctions.

Revolutions start when a critical mass of average people are so disgusted with their country's leadership that they just don't want to put up with it anymore.

In every country, there's always a fringe minority of people dreaming of revolution, even if they live in a country which by reasonable standards has a government that by and large treats its people fairly. But as a leader, if you piss off too many people at once, then it can get the ball rolling and once it's beyond that critical mass, even all the fence sitters and those who were just mildly dissatisfied with their leaders will join in.

If Russia gets cut off from SWIFT, it could be that a lot of Russians are going to say "I'm probably more adept at climbing a tree than somebody like you, that's it!!". Then again, it's not certain. Especially with the sanctions of the last couple of years, Russia is not as dependent on international trade anymore as it once was. I'm not sure with what technology Russia handles domestic money transfers, but it will probably not bring their whole financial system to a halt, as SWIFT only processes international transactions.
>> No. 37100 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 2:13 pm
37100 spacer
>>37099

>it could be that a lot of Russians are going to say "I'm probably more adept at climbing a tree than somebody like you, that's it!!"

Mirth.
>> No. 37101 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 2:14 pm
37101 spacer
>>37099
> SWIFT only processes international transactions.

Not the case - banks routinely use SWIFT to send each other money and confirm transactions, it's a bit like a special internet for banks; that isn't to say that there aren't other methods that Russian banks could fall back on domestically, but it's a big deal to lose access to it. Still don't think it would make that much difference to Putins planning; they'll just do it the old way, using Telex or Fax.

The gas part is relevant - as we get further into the year and weather warms up, gas prices drop so Vlad loses some of that leverage. Again, not convinced it's going to make a huge difference to his thinking.
>> No. 37102 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 2:27 pm
37102 spacer
>>37101

Russians are used to making sacrifices. Not only did they put up with 70 years of communism, but if you look at things like Stalin's Scorched Earth strategy in WWII which ordered retreating Russian troops to destroy all useful supplies and food resources of villages along the way so they wouldn't fall into the hands of the Germans, they are not above cutting off a limb to save their lives.
>> No. 37103 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 2:39 pm
37103 spacer
>>37101

The Russians started their own interbank transfer system (SPFS) in 2014, in response to the threat of US sanctions. This system has connections to a number of international banks, so blocking Russian access to SWIFT would be an inconvenience rather than a crisis. They also have their own domestic card payment system due to sanctions restricting Russian access to Visa and Mastercard networks.

Banning Russia from SWIFT has already been ruled out. Ostensibly this is because of concerns over debt repayments to European lenders, but I think there's a fear that disconnecting Russia from SWIFT could be the first step in creating a new iron curtain. Russia built SPFS as a backup option, but forcing them to rely on it could increase the adoption of it in countries with significant economic ties to Russia. SWIFT is effectively controlled by the US and monitored by the NSA, so creating a viable alternative would be a massive own-goal.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swift-off-russia-sanctions-list-state-banks-likely-target-us-eu-officials-2022-02-11/
>> No. 37104 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 3:36 pm
37104 spacer
Can we just send Andrew in to sort them out like he did with the Argies? Kill two birds with one stone by keeping him away from here in case Brenda dies.
>> No. 37105 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 3:37 pm
37105 spacer
The thing I think sanction fetishists are forgetting is that for much of the 20th century, Russia was pretty much cut off from the Western world entirely, and did reasonably alright for itself. It just seems a very odd line of logic, to me, if you think Putin wants to bring back the USSR, that imposing our own iron curtain on him will somehow do much to discourage it.

It always comes off as a naively Seppo, neoliberal way of viewing things. Those kind of sanctions might be terrible and topple governments if they were imposed on France, or the UK, or Australia, or wherever. But Russia isn't one of those places. It has more than enough of it's own natural resources to tick along, it's friendly with plenty of countries we're at best ambivalent with,but most importantly of all, it doesn't have much of a commitment to providing a high standard of living for it's people.

This is the bit that braindead Yank-worshiping NYT reading twats can't wrap their head around. Russia doesn't feel the effects of sanctions, because Russians are already eating rats and harvesting organs and turning themselves into zombies with krokodil and all kinds of shit. It's a different world. You're assuming that Russia would somehow fall apart like we nearly did when Waitrose didn't have our favourite brand of chips, but you're failing to understand Russia, on a fundamental civil level, is made out of nails and rusty razorblades.
>> No. 37106 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 3:46 pm
37106 spacer
>>37103

>Banning Russia from SWIFT has already been ruled out. Ostensibly this is because of concerns over debt repayments to European lenders

That consideration is much less tinfoilhattery than it seems.

Remember when Greece was allowed to join the Euro despite its sketchy public finances? Well, Greek companies but also government entities were deep in debt to banks in future Eurozone countries, most of all Deutsche Bank. Which feared that not including Greece in the Euro would run its Greek debtors bankrupt due to an imminent massive devaluation of the Drachma against the Euro. And so Deutsche Bank helped the Greek government manipulate its ledgers and present Greece's finances in far better health than they actually were.
>> No. 37109 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 6:48 pm
37109 spacer
>>37104
>Can we just send Andrew in to sort them out

I'm not sure how Christmas cheer could fix this situation.

>>37105
>The thing I think sanction fetishists are forgetting is that for much of the 20th century, Russia was pretty much cut off from the Western world entirely, and did reasonably alright for itself.

That's wrong though. Even without getting into the high-cost of doing business with the West throughout its existence, Soviet autarky is grossly overstated and the export of food is a big example of bad things happening.

>This is the bit that braindead Yank-worshiping NYT reading twats can't wrap their head around. Russia doesn't feel the effects of sanctions, because Russians are already eating rats and harvesting organs and turning themselves into zombies with krokodil and all kinds of shit.

That's just some racist chest-beating. I can certainly think of one case where economic hardship combined with an unpopular war led to revolution in Russia, technically two.
>> No. 37110 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 8:16 pm
37110 spacer
>>37109

>Soviet autarky is grossly overstated

Is it though? Whichever way you slice it, they were doing well enough behind the iron curtain that their existence was the only reason our leaders gave us concessions like the welfare state. Their decline is the reason our leaders got complacent enough to do away with those things.

>I can certainly think of one case where economic hardship combined with an unpopular war led to revolution in Russia, technically two.

While this is true, you've got to be daft to think Ukraine and Putin will be one of those times. Putin is still insanely popular, Ukraine has a sizeable ethnic Russian base. What we're looking at here could be much more akin to the Troubles (and the same way the Yanks always drastically oversimplify that in such a way as to piss off paddies and prods alike).
>> No. 37111 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 9:14 pm
37111 spacer
>>37110
>their existence was the only reason our leaders gave us concessions like the welfare state
I appreciate it's tangential but this strikes me as a very self-congratulatory view from those sympathetic to the USSR. Our welfare state in particular has its roots before the Russian revolution, and a lot of Labour's postwar extension of it is arguably an overhyped extension of that Liberalism rather than "really" being social democratic, let alone socialist. The NHS stands out as an exception in being universal, not really having a contributory element (except glasses/dentures, thanks Gaitskell.), but when looking at the USSR the incentives for starting a national health service are as much hard-headed as altruistic - "buying the workers off with human dignity so they don't revolt" can be counterbalanced with a bit of"making sure the workers aren't riddled with disease so they can take up a rifle or a post in a rifle-factory in the next war."
Then we've to ask why the groundwork was laid for the crushing of the unions in the 1970s, when the USSR was still with us. Stagnant, sure, but even the final collapse came as a bit of a shock. If the capitalists aren't outright seers, at the time where postwar worker-power peaked they certainly decided to risk a revolution the USSR might've supported over continuing along the compromise route of incomes policy balanced by social spending.

It's also worth adding some interesting trivia: I forget the precise decade, 70s, 80s, or 90s, but in the British case it was quite recently that we actually started to spend more on welfare than on warfare. (David Edgerton's got some good writing on this.) We're arguably more of a welfare state now than we were under Attlee in that respect, even if that money isn't always finding its way to the right people due to the desire of successive work and pensions ministers to design the most kafkaesque systems possible, and the last Labour government accidentally triangulating away all sympathy for the unemployed.
>> No. 37112 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 10:38 pm
37112 spacer

H1wK6Hi7Uoxa.gif
371123711237112
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795
>> No. 37113 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:07 pm
37113 spacer
There you have it lads. He has gone and done it. Similar to what he did in Georgia and Crimea. There will be sanctions and nothing else.
>> No. 37114 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:21 pm
37114 spacer

2qo5cb.jpg
371143711437114
>>37112
>>37113

I have to say I didn't think he'd go in for quite such a shameless smash and grab. Up until today, I still had a little bit of doubt and thought that just maybe, the West was being overdramatic. Especially when Biden predicted the invasion.

But it was planned all along. The point of having 100,000-plus troops in that region wasn't a military exercise, however much he tried to pull the wool over our eyes. Far from it.

So what comes now? Ukraine getting arse raped by Putin while the world is watching and doing little more than yet more sanctions? NATO increasing its troops in the bordering regions? World war 3?
>> No. 37115 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:28 pm
37115 spacer
>>37114
Nothing much will happen, until Putin does something similar again. And even then, nothing more than just "limited sanctions" will be tried.
>> No. 37116 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:36 pm
37116 spacer
>>37114
Finger wagging, dissatisfied sighing and not much else.
>> No. 37117 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:47 pm
37117 spacer

sn1uzbhe8kvfwmtnxsci.jpg
371173711737117
>>37114

>So what comes now?

Several more rounds of "Do anything like that again and there will be serious consequences!". There will not be consequences.
>> No. 37118 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:54 pm
37118 spacer
>>37116

He has ruined Palindrome Day for everybody though. A lot of people are going to get married on 22-2-22. What if one day, this date will be looked back on as the beginning of WW3?

Then again, a lot of marriages end up feeling like that anyway.
>> No. 37119 Anonymous
21st February 2022
Monday 11:57 pm
37119 spacer
>>37117
Can you envisage any "serious consequences" that wouldn't result in countless deaths?
>> No. 37120 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 12:39 am
37120 spacer
>>37114
>Up until today, I still had a little bit of doubt
That's a good point actually. I've been telling people it's just been posturing and Russia doing the aggressive shrug-and-lean-forward move for weeks now, and yet now that Russian soldiers are entering the areas that Russia has unilaterally decided aren't Ukraine anyway and so it's okay, my thoughts immediately changed to, "Exactly what I knew would happen!" and I never even noticed. I guess it's the magic of unreliable media.

Bladdermir Poopin is going to be utterly livid next week, though, when China annexes absolutely all of Eastern Siberia and there's nothing he can do about it. And using Yandex for your porno searches is now going to be an act of treason. Without wanking, I might as well sign up to be shot at.
>> No. 37121 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 12:43 am
37121 spacer
>>37114
NATO will want to send a strong message which probably means energy prices are going to spike (we'll be better on this - Germany is fucked), banks and large financial institutions are being shafted as we speak for continually investing in Russia. Grain production will be hit in Ukraine which is the breadbasket of the Middle East - expect to see the ordinarily peaceful Middle East get bumpy on the back of rising food prices. We'll have more hour-long rambles from Putin on the news about how Ukrainians don't exist and the problem of the USSR was decentralization. Oh, and the government has ruled out taking in Ukrainian refugees so don't expect any fanny out of this.

I might open the Covid thread again just to remember the halcyon days of 2020 when the only thing we needed to worry about was a deadly airborne plague and 'adjusting' to a life of working from home in our pyjamas. Maybe I'll say the same about this thread in 2024 when the next box of horrors lands.
>> No. 37122 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 12:59 am
37122 spacer
I have half been looking at rt.com and their coverage of the situation for a few days, with a mixture of amusement and disgust, but now they have decidedly gone from crude political cheerleading to dadaism.

https://www.rt.com/russia/550172-donetsk-lugansk-recognition-celebrations/

>Street celebrations broke out in breakaway republics, which Ukraine claims as its own territory, late on Monday after President Vladimir Putin said Moscow will “immediately recognize the Donetsk (DPR) and Lugansk (LPR) People’s Republics.”

>Footage from the scene shows fireworks lighting up the skies above Donetsk, which has been the capital of the DPR for nearly eight years.
>> No. 37123 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 1:04 am
37123 spacer
>>37118
YouTube just recommended Bad Day by REM to me. Admittedly, I did listen to it a couple of months ago, but not since and it's not the music I normally listen to on YouTube.

Of course, the Americans have been arming the Ukrainians, and we how much they spend on their military. There's still a small chance that Ukraine will unleash a thousand laser-shooting Terminators to walk all the way to Moscow, wiping out absolutely everything in their path.
>> No. 37124 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 2:42 am
37124 spacer
Is this really much of a change in the status quo?
I'm not trying to engage in Putin apologia, I'm just finding it hard to tell if he's "really" invaded Ukraine, or if he's "just" sending more troops into the area he invaded ages ago (but pretended not to), thus dropping the pretending, which is bad but a little bit less bad than grabbing a "new" area of Ukraine.
>> No. 37125 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 4:26 am
37125 spacer
>>37124
"He" isn't doing shit. If this escalates it involves many more people.
>> No. 37126 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 6:49 am
37126 spacer
>>37124

Putin has denied all involvement with the coup in Donetsk and Lugansk. Russian engagement thus far had been mainly through mercenaries and non-uniformed Spetsnaz soldiers. This change will see a huge increase in the Russian military presence in eastern Ukraine, greatly increasing the likelihood of further invasions. It also greatly reduces the possibility of Ukraine regaining those territories.

IMO the evacuation of civilians from the disputed region is a particularly worrying sign, as it suggests that Putin is planning to fight.
>> No. 37127 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 8:18 am
37127 spacer
The OCSE looks like a good resource for reporting on violations of ceasefires and de-escalation agreements:

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports

The UK, US, and Canada have recently withdrawn their staff, and now briefing their media that the OCSE is biased. Make of that what you will.
>> No. 37128 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 11:09 am
37128 spacer
>>37123

Isn't it more like they just get a shitload of old M4s that their troops are unfamiliar and untrained with because they normally use AKs? They're not in NATO either so they probably won't even take STANAG mags and ammunition, so they'll be a liability more than anything else. If they're lucky there might be some fancy missiles and a couple of drones, but I don't think the US is giving much of the good stuff away.

Surely they've learned their lesson about that now after they spent months doing it with anti-Assad rebels and then suddenly out of nowhere in a completely unforeseeable turn of events, ISIS started existing.
>> No. 37129 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 4:43 pm
37129 spacer
Have we considered sending Gaza to the Kremlin with a KFC bucket and a fishing rod?
>> No. 37130 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 4:44 pm
37130 spacer
Whoops, *Gazza. First post wouldn't help much.
>> No. 37131 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 5:41 pm
37131 spacer
>>37128

Ukraine has a weird hodge-podge of small arms, so a big box of M4s wouldn't be the worst thing as long as they come with an equally big box of ammo.

What they really need is MANPADs, which they're being supplied in useful quantities by their near neighbours. Lithuania and Poland have agreed to supply a useful quantity of Stinger and Piorun systems respectively. The Yanks have chipped in some SMAW-D systems, but I'm honestly not sure what use they'd be.
>> No. 37132 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 5:53 pm
37132 spacer
>>37131
I don't think getting their nails did will help them, lad.
>> No. 37133 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 7:51 pm
37133 spacer

sick man of europe over time.jpg
371333713337133
>>37128
>>37131
I've been trying to resist playing armchair general on this but:

Ukraine has been armed with squad-based anti-tank and anti-air weapons - for the past 8 years the Ukrainian army has been built up with support from the West to fight the kind of defensive war it will be fighting against Russia where small isolated pockets of mostly Ukrainian infantry will need to cause havoc against overwhelming Russian armoured and air superiority.

As we saw from the Nagorno-Karabakh War your superior air power is totally neutralised if you're afraid of losing it and just as then Turkish drones instead take the skies. Even in Syria this was made apparent by Russia ensuring both before and during its intervention that anti-aircraft weapons would never fall into rebel hands with diplomacy. This also applies to artillery where Ukraine has been supplied with tracking technology so that when Russian artillery opens fire it will be quickly found and destroyed. If that gets magically jammed then the US can just supply the Ukrainians with information by satellite.

In Syria the rebels were never armed with the kind of weapons Ukraine has. It's a different game much as you might want Ukrainian ISIS.
>> No. 37134 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 8:07 pm
37134 spacer
If Ukraine is part of Russia, doesn't that mean Russia will be invading Russia, in winter? We all know how that goes.
>> No. 37135 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 8:43 pm
37135 spacer
>>37134

> invading Russia, in winter? We all know how that goes

The Germans made the miscalculation that a victory against Russia in WWII would be a quick affair, much the same way that Hitler overran Western Europe within a few months. The German invasion into Russia started in late June and Hitler thought his troops would long be in Moscow by the first snow. Where things started going wrong was that the autumn of 1941 was an unusually wet and rainy period across much of western Russia, and the Germans got stuck in the mud in their thousands on countless unfortified roads. This slowed the advance considerably, and as winter drew closer, new problems arose in that they went to Russia with relatively light gear to begin with, which was adequate for a summer invasion, but was no match for the fierce Russian winter. Soldiers lacked such basic things as proper warm coats. And it all just derailed from there. But they also didn't take into account the tenacity of the Russian army and their determination to defend their country with all their might.
>> No. 37136 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 9:00 pm
37136 spacer

red army.png
371363713637136
>>37135
>> No. 37137 Anonymous
22nd February 2022
Tuesday 9:14 pm
37137 spacer
>>37134
Spring thaw's the worst part, because the ground turns to soup. Also Napoleon nor Hitler didn't have modern fighter-bomber jets.
>> No. 37140 Anonymous
23rd February 2022
Wednesday 11:49 am
37140 spacer
I think I hate Ben Wallace.
>> No. 37141 Anonymous
23rd February 2022
Wednesday 1:08 pm
37141 spacer
>>37140
He's seemed all right to me in general so far. As a Conservative minister, I'm sure he can't be; what don't you like.about him?
>> No. 37142 Anonymous
23rd February 2022
Wednesday 1:49 pm
37142 spacer
>>37141
Today's the second time he's made some idiotic historical comparison in an attempt to sound intelligent, despite said hitorical event being at best meaningless and at worst actively unhelpful in the current situation. I highly doubt the Russian government are hanging on our defense secretary's every word, but beating your chest and hooting about the Crimean War at this time is just plain stupid. Not to mention there was another, much larger, war between then and now that might be worth bringing up as a more positive example of internation cooperation and how smaller conflicts can quickly spiral out of control. After all, Adolf Hitler's plan was to fight a few small wars, more like fait accomplis, for territory he wanted before starting The Big One in 1941. Not that I think Putin is Hitler or this will turn into a world war, but therein lie the limits of tracing historical events onto contemporary ones, you have to spend twice as much time explaining why it's unlike what's happening than you did saying why it is like it. However, it's still more relevant than talking about what a bunch of top lads the Scotch Guards are because 30 years ago you were in the regiment while it sat around in post-everything-Germany, and how they'll stick it to Ivan like it was 1855 and the Russians are still using smoothbore muskets wielded by a terrified serf.
>> No. 37145 Anonymous
23rd February 2022
Wednesday 8:49 pm
37145 spacer

Opera Snapshot_2022-02-23_203904_www.bbc.co.uk.png
371453714537145
>>37142
>Wallace, a former Scots Guards officer, argues his regiment "kicked the backside" of Tsar Nicholas I in the mid-19th century Crimean war, adding "we can always do it again".
For fuck's sake. What a tit. I would say that this is the sort of political insight an eight-year-old would offer, and it is, but the worst thing about it is that this country is full of people who really love to hear such puerile imbecility. He's saying it for them, not for us, I hope.

In other news, the big strong Western media is pointing out all the flaws in various false-flag attacks:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60470089
For example, there's a video of a chlorine tank being attacked by Polish soldiers, except the metadata shows the video was made ten days before its release, and its sound was taken from 2010 footage of a Finnish shooting range:
https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1495355366141534208?s=24
There's also a car that was blown up, except it has no numberplates and there is no blood, suggesting it was just some random abandoned car the Donetskians blew up for a photo, and the leader of the Donetsk region made a video saying, "Today, on the 18th of February..." and the metadata says it was recorded on the 16th.

I've been saying the Russians are good at media manipulation. Maybe they're not. I'm happy to not always trust Western media unquestioningly, but I'd like to think the BBC wouldn't make such rookie errors.
>> No. 37146 Anonymous
23rd February 2022
Wednesday 10:51 pm
37146 spacer
>>37145
I think the sort of people they're aiming the stuff at are those not likely to actually go poking into it.
>> No. 37147 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 2:54 am
37147 spacer

lenin cui bono.jpg
371473714737147
America really suckered Putin with this Ukraine plan, eh?
>> No. 37149 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:10 am
37149 spacer
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/24/russia-has-invaded-ukraine-what-we-know-so-far
There we go then.
Do I get any points for being the first to jump on the "Well, I didn't expect that" bandwagon?
>> No. 37151 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:53 am
37151 spacer

>> No. 37153 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:33 am
37153 spacer
>>37152
Stupid quoatation marks AND it's from The Daily Express? Don't post this sort of shite on here again, please.
>> No. 37154 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:39 am
37154 spacer
Worth remembering that part of the reason Hitler invaded Poland, according to him, was that Poland was allegedly mistreating the German population of Gdánsk, and that the safety of Germany as a nation was at risk. Putin took a page out of none other than Hitler's playbook to justify this invasion?

Will it lead to WW3? Part of me thinks that question is pointless from today. But let's hope not.
>> No. 37156 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:39 am
37156 spacer
Is this the first war without an ideological struggle at its heart?
I'm listening to the radio and I really don't see the 'we need to stand up for Western Democracy' arguement that's being parroted.

I may be speaking from britprivilege, but is our brand of neoliberalism really that different from the Russian version? I'm far too much of a coward anyway, but at least I can imagine being motivated to go off and fight for the Kurds etc., but can't really see anyone laying down their life to defend First Past the Post.

I'd love to know if non-NATO Europeans still see the Western social democratic model as aspirational, or have they become more cynical over the last decade?
>> No. 37157 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:50 am
37157 spacer
>>37156
I should add I understand the issue of Ukrainian sovereignty, I'm just navel gazing to the wider international support and the possibility of the war spreading.
>> No. 37158 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:06 am
37158 spacer
>>37156

Say you have two countries that profit from exporting kicks in the bollocks but one of them also oppresses the gays and goes on little lebensraum wars occasionally and the other is ok to the gays and occasionally invades far off places to depose random dictators for no good reason.
It's all shit.
>> No. 37159 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:19 am
37159 spacer
I think we all owe 2020 an apology.

>>37156
Ukraine is a democracy. That's the issue driving this whole escapade.
>> No. 37160 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:32 am
37160 spacer

098j5f90.jpg
371603716037160
>>37158

I've never really liked the inbendsence that NATO has on the Western world, in that it is very realistically the military arm of American foreign policy. On the face of it, NATO may be organised democratically in that the decision making process is usually subject to member state votes. But that doesn't mean the Americans, and the Americans only aren't calling the shots behind closed doors.

That said, NATO is our only hope against the red Russian menace right now. Unless Putin truly has a death wish, he isn't going to invade the former Soviet satellite states that are now in NATO, and thus expand what is currently still a regional conflict.

Could all still go horribly wrong. Putin has already said that any meddling of the West in Ukraine will be met with never seen before consequences. My guess is that the likelihood of global nuclear war has risen by about 30 percent over night. Nice knowing you, lads.
>> No. 37161 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 11:38 am
37161 spacer
>>37160
>My guess is that the likelihood of global nuclear war has risen by about 30 percent over night. Nice knowing you, lads.

I had a horrifying moment last night when I realised the last post on .gs and my last thought would be shagging Ant & Dec in drag.
>> No. 37162 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 11:47 am
37162 spacer
>>37155
They've certainly seized a lot of Ukraine and all of Belarus in that picture, but also, where is the sovereign NATO state of Lithuania? Ukraine is apparently quite a rubbish place, but if they go after my national waifu Lithuania I am going to be very angry indeed.
>> No. 37163 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 12:11 pm
37163 spacer
>>37161

As a consolation, if WW3 really breaks out, there will be nobody left to point fingers at you.

Being in the Southeast here should make everything quick. London will probably be flattened by one or two thermonuclear devices, and their immediate kill radius should include much of Essex.

https://The Metro is owned by the Daily Mail./2022/02/22/nuke-map-reveals-deadly-impact-russias-bombs-could-cause-if-dropped-on-london-16147987/

Worryingly, the site nuclearsecrecy.com where you can create those maps is unreachable at the moment. I guess a lot of people right now are pondering their chances of survival in a nuclear attack on their local area.
>> No. 37164 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 12:23 pm
37164 spacer
So, are we likely to be directly affected by any of this?
Gas & Leccy rationing?
>> No. 37165 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 12:47 pm
37165 spacer
Buy the dip now that the panic has set into the market or wait and see if it goes lower tomorrow?

>>37164
I hope you're not running low on toilet paper.
>> No. 37166 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 1:07 pm
37166 spacer
>>37165

>Buy the dip now that the panic has set into the market or wait and see if it goes lower tomorrow?

With a view to owning your stocks for a longer period of time, and provided we don't all get nuked by Moscow, today could be a good day to start bargain hunting.

The start of a war has usually been a very good long-term opportunity. What keeps retail investors from profiting from it a lot of times is that they either speculate on stocks going even lower and then missing the rebound, or getting scared and selling at the lowest point.

Your money, your decisions. No investment advice.
>> No. 37167 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 1:15 pm
37167 spacer
If you're talking about investments I think you just hang yourself. Vile cunts.
>> No. 37168 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 1:22 pm
37168 spacer

a0992605974_5.jpg
371683716837168
>>37167

Now, now.

Hate the game, not the players.
>> No. 37169 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 1:28 pm
37169 spacer

vix.jpg
371693716937169
>>37167
You've got to speculate to accumulate.
>> No. 37170 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:01 pm
37170 spacer
>>36687 But those nations joined NATO of their own decision. Why can't they do tht?
>> No. 37171 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:01 pm
37171 spacer
>>36687 But those nations joined NATO of their own decision. Why can't they do tht?
>> No. 37172 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:06 pm
37172 spacer
Let's be honest lads, how likely is this to move to WW3? Not very likely, really, is it?
>> No. 37174 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:17 pm
37174 spacer
>>37173
Fuck off. Fuck off, with your lower case idiocy and Twitter screen grabs from cunts talking about shite they don't understand and don't want to learn about. Xi Jinping's just going to teleport hundreds-of-thousands of soldiers on Taiwan is he? Or march them across the sea perhaps?
>> No. 37176 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:21 pm
37176 spacer
So it's on, Putin has made his play like it was absolutely obvious he would since we spent the last three months telling him "we're not going to stop you, whatever happens we definitely won't intervene, but we must reiterate that it's very naughty."

But is it the invasion the Americans were screeching about? Is it a full on blitzkrieg with Russian tanks roaring along to flatten Kiev and most tragically of all, fucking delay S.T.A.L.K.E.R 2? Or is it more like that thing like when we were just putting guys in Syria as "training operatives" and so on?

I've made a few posts in this thread that some of you have accused of being Putin sympathising and I assure you it's not, but the thing is I can't help the feeling our news is in complete propaganda mode over all this. Frankly I think you've got to be either naive or malicious to deny that, it's self evident. But what's really going on? Where can we establish the facts?
>> No. 37178 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:31 pm
37178 spacer
>>37172
Doubt it.
We will likely go on about how we strongly disapprove, but nobody dare fire a shot in anger because Vlad is probably as nuts as they make him out to be.
>> No. 37179 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:43 pm
37179 spacer
>>37175
Oh, so there's a big amphibious invasion force ready to go is there? Where's that mustering then? Can you even name more than three Chinese cities anyway, you illiterate knobhead?

Fucking use your shift key, you cunt.
>> No. 37182 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 3:55 pm
37182 spacer
I'm not replying to any more fucking gormless Twitter posts. There's no point trying to have a conversation about anything when the shit-for-brains gang rock up and start posting their favourite far-right freaks and speaking in monosyllabic sentences of no more than six words.
>> No. 37185 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 4:19 pm
37185 spacer
I'm worried that my brain has been poisoned by the social media age, because I know nothing about these sanctions we're imposing, but I have immediately decided that we need to do more. In politics, perception is reality, and my perception of the situation is that we undeniably look pathetically weak. Why would anyone ever listen to us on the world's stage? It's like if when Roy Keane shattered that guy's leg, if the guy took the football to hospital with him and made Roy Keane play with a plastic bag full of other shopping bags instead. It's hardly an eye for an eye. It's hardly justice.

People are starving and freezing to death in Afghanistan because they have been completely shut out of international society under the Taliban. Sanctions cannot possibly be more extreme than that. But the Taliban are still in power and I haven't heard any stories of them even being particularly worried. We look like bitches with our infantile threats to stop buying Russian gas. But the alternative, of course, will kill thousands of British soldiers. It's weird that I'm happy to overlook that in exchange for making the news look more cool.
>> No. 37187 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 4:58 pm
37187 spacer
>>37185
Oddly I'm the other way around, strangely apathetic. There's a bit of (imagine a less distasteful term for 'excitement') at 'history happening' or similar, but everything is disposable in the social media age. By 2023 I find it hard to think anyone will be paying that much attention to Ukraine (except perhaps in a Syria-watcher kind of way) because something else will come along and catch everyone's attention, and since perception is reality, the decision to appoint Trump to the supreme court or something will take precedence.

When there's something big like a war, I think we all jump to seeing history as a linear thing, the way we've all been taught the story of WW2. But with the internet, these things are nonlinear. You and I will have seen completely different posts, have a completely different conception of the war. Others will be deep down a Russian propaganda hole, or believe that Q predicted this. Rather than a neat history textbook, it's a wikipedia article full of hyperlinks that will take you to chemical elements and Japanese Kei cars before you know it. An appearance of a social consensus will appear out of the noise, but it's a step change from where we were in 1991 where everyone was watching the same 4 telly channels, and soon the noise will reconfigure to condemnation for something else. (It's almost always condemnation though.)
Which all seems very serious, even though it can be quite frivilous: the difficulty isn't people being too gung-ho, or people being pro-putin, it's more that a chunk of people will only follow along with Ukraine War memes, or what some streamer has to say before they get distracted by the next news event, or surreal topical onlyfans content. If you think of these things by analogy to Trump, that might make my point clearer - who re-watches 2017 episodes of some streamer whining that Trump's a bad president? Nobody. It's disposable, even though the presidency was important. The war is important, yet the same thing will probably happen. In the real world, the people of Afghanistan are cold, starving, and ruled by nutters - but on the internet I haven't seen more than passing references for weeks until your post, unless you include Soviet-Afghan war music.
And maybe it's just that Adam Curtis post about his media manipulation, but I suspect Russia understands something of this reality better than we do. Maybe because narratively satisfying history imploded in Russia slightly before it did here.
>> No. 37188 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 5:32 pm
37188 spacer
>>37187

>I think we all jump to seeing history as a linear thing, the way we've all been taught the story of WW2.

Studying history from primary sources is a really easy way to dispel that mindset.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1938-09-28/debates/127ff3ff-19b8-4190-a8bc-02bbb59f955e/EuropeanSituation

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1938-10-06/debates/41f5ec19-7164-4e9d-bab8-0c80fa541013/PolicyOfHisMajestySGovernment
>> No. 37189 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:16 pm
37189 spacer
All the Russian furry porn artists are absolutely shitting themselves right now, because the upcoming sanctions will almost certainly rule out being able to get money into Russia through paypal and the like.
>> No. 37190 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:24 pm
37190 spacer
Will Russians be protesting this like when we were on the streets against the invasion of Iraq or would that be completely clamped down on?
>> No. 37192 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:31 pm
37192 spacer
>>37190
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-698546
>Russian police detain thousands in anti-war, pro-Ukraine protests
>Anti-war protests have taken place in 40 different Russian cities on Thursday.
>> No. 37194 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:33 pm
37194 spacer
>>37191
The Foreign Secretary's job is to hate immigrants and foreigners. We can't go listening to what the Foreign Secretary says about refugees or we'd all be manning bunkers and machine gun nests along the south coast.
>> No. 37195 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:37 pm
37195 spacer

CyoC6pJUkAACYef.jpg
371953719537195
>>37193
>> No. 37196 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:38 pm
37196 spacer
>>37185

>People are starving and freezing to death in Afghanistan because they have been completely shut out of international society under the Taliban.

And as alluded to earlier, this is why sanctions don't work, and worse than that the only people they harm are the innocent civillian populace of a country, not the leadership and elites who are calling the shots. It's ineffective at the best of times, and it's next to completely useless against the kind of regimes we typically aim them at, who don't give two fucks about the conditions their people live in.

In fact scratch that, I don't even need to make that qualification do I. Imagine a parallel universe where Britain is getting embargo'd Cuba style by the international community for invading Las Malvinas and reclaiming rightful British clay. The Mail and the Graun are both full of pictures of empty shelves and forlorn, hungry children. Boris still won't resign.

>But the alternative, of course, will kill thousands of British soldiers

Well, at least getting shot is a soldier's job. The trouble is that again, it's the ordinary people who pay the price. The ordinary people of Ukraine never wanted any of this. They want to go to school and go to work without getting shelled. The Yanks have got this one nicely figured out anyway, they can massacre innocent civilians without even putting a single soldier in harm's way these days.

The one alternative between limp-dicked economic sanctions and full on war is the one thing seemingly nobody on either side was interested in bothering with- Actual fucking diplomacy. Like any relationship, international relations require compromise, and nobody in this situation, least of all us, the West, has been willing to. Putin maybe the big baddie in the current situation, but the fact is if we hadn't treated Russia like a leper after the fall of the Soviet Union we wouldn't have had him to worry about in the first place. Like the breakdown of any interpersonal relationship, there is blame on both sides, and the refusal to acknowledge it is why grudges persist.

History repeats itself. You all know how the overly punishing terms of surrender in WW1 laid the groundwork for the rise of Hitler, well it's not much different with Russia. We should have built relations with them, but instead geriatric Yank politicians insisted on carrying on acting like they were still the Great Enemy, and kept the cold war going.

It's all just so fucking stupid because we would live in a better world if people could just not be stubborn, power hungry, tribalistic bastards. We'd all be wealthier and happier if it didn't have to be us vs them.

As an aside: What happens on the space station if Russia and the US go to war? Will they have to scrap it out with the little plastic straws they use to eat space food?
>> No. 37197 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:40 pm
37197 spacer
>>37195

I believe that "meme" is pointing out the kind of hypocrisy you can see in mainstream "liberal" (the American Democrat voter kind) types. They like to take the moral high ground on issues about hurt feelings and social justice but they quite frequently turn full patriot when it comes to foreign policy.

Americans are weird.
>> No. 37198 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:49 pm
37198 spacer
If there's one good thing to come out of all this, its the amount of lovely Eastern European belles on the telly now. Best accent on a woman hands down.
>> No. 37199 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 6:58 pm
37199 spacer

twitter.png
371993719937199
>>37182

You'd give yourself less brain damage headbutting a wall than looking at Twitter. I'm afraid you have nobody to blame but yourself.
>> No. 37201 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:17 pm
37201 spacer

watm-wg-3.jpg
372013720137201
What's most disturbing is that Putin got away with what was probably the ultimate bluff. Think about it. For weeks, it was all, oh don't mind us 100,000 troops here dilly-dallying along the Ukrainian border. We're just exercising. We'll go home when we're done. Much of the Western world was alarmed, but still believed that Putin wouldn't be crazy enough to actually invade Ukraine. He then even ordered a handful of troops to go home. While at the same time secretly sending in many more new ones.

Still, even Biden made a fool of himself warning against an invasion, which then didn't come on February 16. NATO was accused of fearmongering and of having its own agenda and wanting to goad Putin into an attack. And then when the Americans released the Russian Army's invasion strategy, which has now happened almost exactly the way it was predicted, everybody was still like, Putin is crazy but not that crazy. When he then moved troops into the Donbas, everybody was like, whew, oh, ok, so he wants the Donbas. Incredibly rude of him, but see, he doesn't want to invade the entire country. Because he's not that crazy, is he.

The question now is, where do his Jedi mind tricks end. Is he actually going to use nukes, if pressed, or is he really not that crazy after all? And what can we base any kind of probable assessment on? Either it's just a bluff and he hopes that the West will not call it, or he's actually prepared to shoot nuclear missiles at NATO and western countries if they interfere in Ukraine.

In war and politics, your own success greatly hinges on correctly predicting your opponent's next move. But with Putin, all bets seem off. All we know is that anything can happen with him. He's not even behaving erratically like some other more lightweight rogue dictators. Everything he does is carefully planned. But he has a way of not letting you guess his moves correctly even when all the clues are completely out in the open.

The Americans came close, in that they actually kept saying all along that there would be a full-scale invasion. They got it right. And in a very unwelcome way, what happened today vindicates them. Part of me still believes it was just dumb luck. At other times, to quote Marge Simpson, they can't predict six o'clock at five-thirty. But a lot of the media and opinion leaders as well as many of you and me were probably completely stumped this morning.
>> No. 37202 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:20 pm
37202 spacer
>>37201

>Putin wouldn't be crazy enough to actually invade Ukraine

What's crazy about it? We spent three months explicitly telling him there would be no consequences.
>> No. 37203 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:26 pm
37203 spacer
>>37198

I've always had a right stonk on for Mila Kunis. Coincidentally, she's Ukrainian as well. But listening to her speaking completely bendsent Russian, although I can't understand a single word of it, almost makes me spontaneously blow a load.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXt2FEEYVEw
>> No. 37204 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:26 pm
37204 spacer
>>37203

>bendsent

That word filter has kind of worn out its welcome, don't you think, modlad?
>> No. 37205 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:29 pm
37205 spacer
>>37203

Yuck, Russian with a Yank accent? That's horrid. no thanks. I want a girl who sounds like the mission briefing bird from Red Alert 2.

The closest I've got is a Polish lass, but it's near enough.
>> No. 37206 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:32 pm
37206 spacer
>>37205

>Yuck, Russian with a Yank accent

You're looking at it the wrong way. It's Mila Kunis speaking Russian.

Also, how can you tell? You're not Kremlinlad, are you?
>> No. 37207 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 7:43 pm
37207 spacer
>>37201
I'm more amazed that Russia launched the invasion in the middle of a UN Security Council meeting to find a diplomatic resolution. I know Putin has threatened to wipe out Ukraine as a culture, violated a countries national sovereignty and demanded he dominate Eastern Europe as an emperor but it sound so much worse to attack during a diplomatic meeting.

Not cricket is what it is.
>> No. 37208 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:02 pm
37208 spacer
>>37199
I was shouting at people doing exactly what you've just done by posting a silly screencap, but the mods, rightfully, deleted the posts so I look even madder than usual.

>>37201
He got away with it because no one just invades a country because they flat out don't like who's running it anymore. Even the cavalcade of lies and self-deceit that was the Iraq War had those pretenses, it kind of'-sorta' fell under the umbrella of the "War on Terror" and at no point did the USA or anyone else in the Coalition say "Iraq isn't real, we are going to stop Iraq from existing" just because they didn't like Iraq, though that was clearly a motivating factor as well.

It is very, very alarming to see how unhinged Putin appears. I was reading that Biden had been presented with the option to unleash massive cyber attacks against Russia, which might not happen, but if it were to how would Putin react to that? I don't recall Ukraine sending tanks and air assault troops into Russia and yet look at where we are. As you say, all bets are off.

>>37207
I'm speculating too much here, but does that point to utter duplicity on Russia's part or confusion amongst their leadership?
>> No. 37209 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:09 pm
37209 spacer

FF87D8_LEAD-e23f88d.jpg
372093720937209
>>37207

>I'm more amazed that Russia launched the invasion in the middle of a UN Security Council meeting to find a diplomatic resolution

When you just don't give a damn as a despot hell bent on war, then I am sure it seems to you like just the right kind of taunt towards institutions like the UN. You don't want to negotiate or be talked out of your war plans, you just want everybody to go and fuck off.

It's the same as all those meeting the last few days and weeks with Western leaders and heads of government. Putin knew for a far longer time what he wanted to do, his mind was set on it, and yet, he had all of them pleading with him to no avail. He must have taken a good amount of delight in seeing them essentially powerless against his cunning plan.

It's all a lot like Chamberlain's appeasement. Except Hitler made an even bigger fool of Chamberlain than Putin has done with leaders who just paid him a visit, who came home from those meetings more or less aware that they had achieved nothing.
>> No. 37210 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:12 pm
37210 spacer
>>37209
>It's all a lot like Chamberlain's appeasement. Except Hitler made an even bigger fool of Chamberlain than Putin has done with leaders who just paid him a visit, who came home from those meetings more or less aware that they had achieved nothing.

Wasn't the whole point of appeasement that we were in no way ready for a war with Germany and it gave us some time to massively ramp up production?
>> No. 37211 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:26 pm
37211 spacer
>>37210

>Wasn't the whole point of appeasement that we were in no way ready for a war with Germany and it gave us some time to massively ramp up production?

I think Chamberlain was genuinely naive about the whole thing and thought that he had done the impossible in reasoning with Hitler and achieving a binding agreement between honourable statesmen. Others in his cabinet were surely less wide eyed, and were acutely aware that Britain's ability to fight off a German invasion was still looking a bit sketchy at the time.
>> No. 37212 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 8:39 pm
37212 spacer
>>37208
>I was reading that Biden had been presented with the option to unleash massive cyber attacks against Russia, which might not happen, but if it were to how would Putin react to that?
Big moot point as we know that the Russian authorities already have the technical capability to essentially shut the whole of the Russian internet off from the rest of the world, and rumours are circulating that it's going to happen soon anyway to control what info Russian citizens are getting about the conflict
>> No. 37213 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:08 pm
37213 spacer
To me, the most worryingly insane thing about ol' Bladder-Poo was his warning to other countries during his invasion. He warned all the other countries in the world not to get involved, or he would smack our bottoms with his big choppers and other air force materiel.

Everyone had already said they wouldn't be sending soldiers to fight back the Russians. But now, we look weak and submissive for sticking to our plans. We said we weren't going to fight him, and he said, "You better not, you soft pussies!" and we just meekly said yes. It's like he wants to bait other countries into fighting back. He's going after Ukraine, and he sounds annoyed that we've just handed it over. He wanted a bigger war and he hasn't got it.

Sun Tzu said something in The Art of War which I can't find to quote directly, but if your enemy is standing and waiting for you to advance, do not advance. So we're probably doing the right thing by acting like weenies. Nevertheless, it's another media win for the king of media manipulation, and a media loss for Team America.
>> No. 37214 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:16 pm
37214 spacer
>>37213
> Nevertheless, it's another media win for the king of media manipulation, and a media loss for Team America.

The west kept saying an invasion was coming. Putin kept calling them agitators. Now Putin looks like a liar and the west looks prescient. I'd call that a win for Team America.
>> No. 37215 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:30 pm
37215 spacer
>>37214
This. And importantly Ukraine isn't NATO (yet?)
The west isn't obliged to defend Ukraine at this point, and that's the core reason for Putin to attack now rather than years in the future.
>> No. 37216 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:31 pm
37216 spacer
I talked to one of my mum's oldest friends today who is a retired RAF officer and served as crew on the Vulcan bomber in his younger days in the early 80s. He genuinely scared me. He said that one feared scenario for the start of WW3 back then was that the Warsaw Pact would suddenly attack and invade a neutral country between it and NATO territory, e.g. Austria or Sweden, which then would have served as a base to disperse more and more troops into neighbouring NATO territory. He thinks Putin may be looking at Ukraine as well as Belarus in a similar way.

ITZ, lads. ITZ.
>> No. 37217 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:43 pm
37217 spacer
>>37214
NATOmuglad seems awfully quiet right now.
>> No. 37218 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:49 pm
37218 spacer
>>37216

Putin would get an absolute shoeing if he took on NATO. The Russian military is large and capable, but it's totally outclassed and outgunned by the combined might of NATO. That's why he is so keen to disrupt and undermine the NATO alliance; he only stands a chance if he can move west piecemeal, without triggering a world war. laplanderstan and China might be sympathetic, but they won't go to bat for him in any meaningful way.

Finland and Moldova should be pretty fucking nervous, there might be some proxy war shenanigans in the Balkans, he might eventually take a nibble at the edges of Poland or Romania, but we aren't on the cusp of World War Three. Putin hasn't (yet) steered the Russian economy towards preparations for total war and he's too clever to start a fight he can't possibly win.
>> No. 37219 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 9:55 pm
37219 spacer
>>37214

>Now Putin looks like a liar and the west looks prescient

In all fairness, he is a liar. He cannot possibly expect anybody to believe that his troops just happened to be all around the Ukrainian borders in the hundreds of thousands when suddenly out of nowhere, things got bad enough in the Donbass that it became imperative for him to intervene. It's an absolute bullshit excuse, from somebody who has long stopped caring what the world thinks about his moral integrity as leader.
>> No. 37220 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:00 pm
37220 spacer
>>37215
>The west isn't obliged to defend Ukraine at this point, and that's the core reason for Putin to attack now rather than years in the future.

Well, sort of. It does feel like a proxy war again, except in Europe, with the admittedly puny amounts of military tools shipped into Ukraine from Nato allies.

And what's bothersome is that this is Level 2 of for Russia, with Crimea in 2016 being Level 1. Or rather, for the Putin regime. They "nibble" (at the cost of likely hundreds of lives) and wait for the die down. What happens next depends on Russian dementia, do they ask for a "corridor to Kaliningrad" much like Danzig served as an excuse to be a fucking arsehole?

I sincerly hope Putin doesn't follow that playbook in his waning years, but I have little faith that there will be a net-positive from decisions made from here. If this turns into war, it'll be financial, computer based, and sadly human based. It would be a whole new kind of warfare unleashed.
>> No. 37221 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:01 pm
37221 spacer
>>37219
I think it was obvious from the outset that anyone who believed that almost 200k troops around the Ukrainian border were there for an exercise was in the market for a bridge.
>> No. 37222 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:08 pm
37222 spacer
What are people's predictions for this war, by the way? I fear that Ukraine will not put up a very good fight. They announced earlier that they would give out guns to anyone who wants them and is willing to fight the Russian invaders.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-president-zelensky-will-provide-weapons-to-citizens-2022-2

That looks to me like a country that has immediately decided on guerrilla warfare, which in turn sounds like they don't trust their own army. Furthermore, five years from now, Ukraine will be a country with thousands of guns in sheds and bedrooms and almost no oversight of them. That is a country which will be ungovernable. If Ukraine chases out all the Russians, they're going to have a nightmare restoring law and order and regret this plan. If Ukraine is Russia five years from now, it will have been a great idea. So it looks like Ukraine's days might be numbered, and that's very sad.
>> No. 37223 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:22 pm
37223 spacer
>>37222
>That looks to me like a country that has immediately decided on guerrilla warfare, which in turn sounds like they don't trust their own army.
It's not that they don't trust their own army, it's that they know they're otherwise outnumbered and outgunned and will absolutely lose a conventional conflict against the Russians.
>> No. 37225 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:25 pm
37225 spacer

_97405511_hi040939718-1.jpg
372253722537225
>>37221

I just think it's beyond cynical even as a failed-state despot that you care so little about giving something even the thinnest veneer of faked honesty that it basically comes down to saying, oh you know, of course I was lying, what did you think I was doing with 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border.
>> No. 37226 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:29 pm
37226 spacer
>>37222
Some commentators have said a victory for Russia would have been their forces surrounding Kyiv in 12 hours, that hasn't happened. There have been many accounts of Russian forces having got bogged down in very wet ground. There a lot of information being spread online about Ukrainian forces having all fled and not fought, but there's plenty of footage and photos showing bombed out Russian tanks troop carriers jets and helicopters to disprove that. Ukrainian troops are definitely fighting an active war but I think their tactics are mostly that they're picking off individual units and then retreating to avoid getting tagged for airstrikes.
Russian forces have air superiority but in terms of wellies in the mud they're on a more even footing with Ukraine, and in that situation an attacker still generally needs to greatly outnumber defenders for a quick victory. Shelling and bombing of cities appears to have been very very limited so apparently Russians are at least trying to avoid civilian casualties.

All in all I don't really know, I might wake up tomorrow to find Kyiv is a smoking crater or there might have been no change since this morning. Most seems to hinge on whether Russia can hold onto the airport and land troops and supplies. Otherwise Ukraine will keep attacking their supply chains and perhaps shell the airport to deny its use.
>> No. 37227 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:30 pm
37227 spacer
>>37222
Not an expert by any means, but they're in somehwat of an unwinnable situation on the face of it. Russia has them surrounded on all sides, has the superior land forces, navy and air force and Ukraine is basically completely flat. I bemoaned pointless historical parallels earlier in the week, but it does remind me of Poland in WW2, which was in much the same position at the time of the German invasion. I would be suprised if the government didn't trust the armed forces, but only because I've not heard of any defections or mutinies in recent times, I'm just some pleb on the internet though, don't take my word for it.
>> No. 37228 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 10:54 pm
37228 spacer
>>37222

The Ukrainian army is fairly capable, but it's completely outnumbered and outgunned. They can't win, so the question is how many losses they're willing to suffer before they surrender. I'd expect a fairly rapid transition to asymmetric warfare, possibly within a matter of days.

>five years from now, Ukraine will be a country with thousands of guns in sheds and bedrooms and almost no oversight of them.

Ukraine is already that country. It doesn't technically have any laws governing civilian firearms ownership, just ministerial regulations. Those regulations were already fairly weakly enforced, but in the east of the country they have been ignored almost completely since 2014. The country is awash with guns and the authorities are happy to turn a blind eye if you aren't acting like a dickhead.

Officially there are just shy of a million registered gun owners, but the number of unregistered owners is believed to be several times greater. Ukraine still has vast quantities of ex-Soviet small arms that are cheaply and readily available to civilians. The legalisation of gun ownership is really just a recognition of the status quo.

If an abundance of unregistered guns would make Ukraine ungovernable, it would have already happened.

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cp/ukraine

https://www.smallarmssurvey.org/sites/default/files/resources/SAS-BP3-Ukraine.pdf
>> No. 37229 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 11:03 pm
37229 spacer
>>37225
> I just think it's beyond cynical even as a failed-state despot that you care so little about giving something even the thinnest veneer of faked honesty that it basically comes down to saying, oh you know, of course I was lying, what did you think I was doing with 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border.

People (especially the ones who claim otherwise) do not care about facts, they care about stories and love story tellers. Tell that story properly, and suddenly it becomes truth.
>> No. 37230 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 11:14 pm
37230 spacer

poll-finds-that-voters-back-boris-johnson-in-burka.jpg
372303723037230
>sancshuns
>> No. 37231 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 11:16 pm
37231 spacer
>>37225

Putin is claiming that he is liberating Ukraine from a neo-Nazi regime that are committing genocide against ethnic Russians.

Politics is much easier when you can just invent your own reality.
>> No. 37232 Anonymous
24th February 2022
Thursday 11:29 pm
37232 spacer
>All Ukrainian men aged between 18 to 60 are now banned from leaving the country, Ukraine's state border guard service (DPSA) says. It adds the measure is aimed at "guaranteeing Ukraine's defence and the organisation of timely mobilisation". The temporary ban will remain in force for the duration of martial law declared on Thursday morning.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795

I'm going to look a right sex-pest if I say that we should take in some Ukrainian refugees now. It'll be interesting to see how the press react when it really is women and children coming over.
>> No. 37233 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 12:07 am
37233 spacer
>>37231

He's lying obviously, but it's only the same kind of lie we told when we invaded Iraq to find them WMDs, or when we were supporting the Syrian rebels for... Why were we doing that again?

Anyway the likely realistic translation from politics to reality is that they're looking to force a regime change and put someone pro-Russia in charge, it won't be a literal "this is Russia now" type of thing. They're just doing it with open military action instead of covertly supporting separatists and playing them off against each other like the CIA have been trying to do for the past... What is it, 8 years now?

Potato tomato.
>> No. 37234 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 12:20 am
37234 spacer
>>37217

In fairness whichever way you stood on the invasion/no invasion prediction, Putin has made everyone look like a mug. It basically went like this:

"I'm going to invade Ukraine"

"You better not you naughty Ruskie!"

"What are you going to do about it?"

"Well... We'll uh... Stop you being able to use Adobe Premier and stuff."

"Right, sounds okay to me."

"And we will strongly condemn it, in the strongest terms."

"Oh dear."

Being more cynical though I don't think anyone in the west really gave a fuck, we made loud noises about it purely to keep the kayfabe up. It's almost all those talks were just a theatrical gesture to make it look like we had any intention of stopping him, but when nobody was looking we gave him the wink and the nod.
>> No. 37235 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 12:20 am
37235 spacer
>>37231
Putin's claimed all sorts of shit and the more he plays by the Nazi playbook ("our people are being suppressed, they are crying out for liberation") the more it seems reasonable to exepect escalation.

But if this escalates too much I'm buying a [s]hovel[/h]house in County Durham and digging a bunker.
>> No. 37236 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 12:26 am
37236 spacer
>>37231

>Putin is claiming that he is liberating Ukraine from a neo-Nazi regime

He does know that Ukraine's President Volodymyr Selensky is Jewish?
>> No. 37237 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 12:39 am
37237 spacer
>>37233
In fairness, our lies were slightly more plausibly timed and made a better show of doing the bureaucratic parts correctly. The leap from Donetsk to a full invasion was much, much too fast. Iraq gave everyone a year or so of pretending that if Saddam just met our very reasonable demands, we could put all of this behind us, before finally telling him he had 24 hours to fuck off or he'd be fucking off from this mortal coil.
Though I suspect the rush was because of a similar problem that the Iraq war authors faced: the justification operation running up against practical military deadlines. If you've got to invade by next week, you don't really have the time to set up a sufficiently thick paper thin pretext. If I was Putin's editor, I'd have him move the Donetsk invasion back a month, let everyone relax a bit, then go in properly.
>> No. 37238 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 1:23 am
37238 spacer
>>37233
>but it's only the same kind of lie we told when we invaded Iraq to find them WMDs
It really, really isn't.

>or when we were supporting the Syrian rebels for... Why were we doing that again?
Because the dictator was brutalising his own people, up to and including the use of chemical weapons.
>> No. 37239 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 1:26 am
37239 spacer
>>37231
I do find it slightly hilarious that people go "but the Azov militias" while defending an actual fascist who's basically funding the entire European far-right contingent at this point.
>> No. 37240 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 2:39 am
37240 spacer
>>37238

>It really, really isn't.

Yes, it is.

>Because the dictator was brutalising his own people, up to and including the use of chemical weapons.

Oh yeah, that was it. Which is funnily enough a better excuse than we had for invading Iraq, but that time we decided it'd be better to create ISIS instead.
>> No. 37241 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 3:35 am
37241 spacer
>>37240

Iraq definitely had weapons of mass destruction in the 1980s, because he used them on the Iranians and the Kurds. Over the course of the 1990s, the United Nations Special Commission oversaw the process of finding and destroying those weapons. They found abundant and irrefutable evidence that Iraq had a large and successful chemical weapons programme, which the Iraqi government ultimately admitted to.

That process of disarmament was nearly complete in 1998, but weapons inspectors were either withdrawn or expelled from Iraq. Over the following five years, increasing belligerence on the part of both America and Iraq impeded UN efforts to ascertain the true status of Iraq's WMD capabilities.

The Iraq Dossier was undoubtedly of poor quality, the American government of the time undoubtedly distorted the intelligence to push for war, but it was never a fiction cut from whole cloth. By their own admission, Iraq had chemical and biological weapons in 1996. A significant number of old and degraded weapons were found subsequent to the 2003 invasion. The point of factual dispute is a fairly subtle one - whether, at the time of the invasion, any of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons were in a useable state.

If you can't see the difference between a complex dispute over uncertain information and a blatant lie, there's really nothing more I can say to you.
>> No. 37242 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 7:36 am
37242 spacer
>>37241
>If you can't see the difference between a complex dispute over uncertain information and a blatant lie, there's really nothing more I can say to you.

I think he just wants to keep saying 'West = bad' and 'Putin has made us look like mugs' over and over again.
>> No. 37243 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 7:50 am
37243 spacer
This thread is an absolute fucking mess of sophistry, ill-defined positions, ahistorical nonsense, namecalling, and strawmanning. I feel stupider for having read it.
>> No. 37244 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 8:22 am
37244 spacer
>>37241
I find it hard to accept that the government that had the gall to pretend increasing the employment rate (i.e. getting old people and single mothers into work, rather than reducing the involuntary unemployment rate) constituted "bringing back full employment" was somehow unable to spin "unusable rusty chemical bomb" into "chemical bomb", even with a relatively supportive press. It's not impossible by any means, but it suggests a failure to spin the story on a level with the intelligence failures leading up to the war itself.

In a more tedious French philosopher sort of way, I'm tempted to say that the dynamic of a blatant lie is preferable. It's unambiguous that Putin was bullshitting from before the war started, but the Americans had a role in making the necessary information on Iraq unavailable, then looked at random noise and interpreted it in a way that aligned with what they ultimately wanted to do. It feels much easier to tackle the former than the latter, and something of a miracle that in the case of Iraq public opinion has come down as harshly as it did. Unless he's actually gone insane Putin has gone to bed tonight knowing he's a liar, while Tony Blair still goes to bed telling himself he made the right call which (technical disputes aside) is essentially lying to himself.
(Though in defence of seeing what he wanted to see, my recollection is that we were selling dual-use chemicals to Iraq during the 1980s.)
>> No. 37245 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 8:46 am
37245 spacer
>>37243
Believe me this place is a lot more sensible than *other* places to discuss such matters.
>> No. 37246 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 5:40 pm
37246 spacer
>>37243
Welcome to britfa.gs
>> No. 37247 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 8:30 pm
37247 spacer
If Putin wants to go full pariah, where have the sneaky fucks been hiding their IC fabs? Three manky little plants isn;t going to keepthem in knockoff iphones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants
>> No. 37248 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 8:46 pm
37248 spacer
>>37247
China does not subscribe to the NA/EU sanction regime.
>> No. 37249 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 9:50 pm
37249 spacer
>>37247
Russia supplies the lions share of essential raw materials for semiconductors though so if they turn off the tap we're not much better off than them.
>> No. 37250 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 10:20 pm
37250 spacer
>>37247

Russia have been trying to work towards semiconductor self-sufficiency, but they just don't have access to the technology. The Dutch company ASML have a near-total monopoly on modern photolithography equipment; this bottleneck has proved very useful for the Yanks in restricting the IC fabrication capabilities of adversaries and potential adversaries. A combination of domestic production and sanctions avoidance will probably keep them well supplied with military chips, but the civilian market is likely to suffer.

>>37248

China proper are only just starting to get into IC manufacturing via SMIC. They're a couple of generations behind the cutting edge, which isn't being helped by US sanctions.

The vast majority of IC fabrication is done in Chinese Taipei, Japan, South Korea and the US. China might be the final point of manufacture for most consumer electronics, but there's a long chain of intellectual property that is very likely to make Chinese companies averse to doing business with Russia. Huawei have been badly affected by US sanctions and nobody else is keen on joining that list. With massive global shortages of chips likely to last for at least 18 months, manufacturers can afford to pick and choose who they sell to.

>>37249

Definitely not.

Russia export significant quantities of rare earth minerals, but they only hold a small proportion of global reserves and China is capable of full self sufficiency. Cutting off Russian exports might affect prices, but it won't have any significant impact on supply.

Ukraine is a major supplier of laser-grade noble gases, which does present some serious short-term concerns. They in turn rely on exports of commercial-grade noble gases from Russia. The US has abundant stockpiles of noble gases as part of their strategic helium reserve, but it's not entirely clear whether they have sufficient processing capacity.

Regardless, I would be fully confident that the major semiconductor manufacturers have more than adequate contingency plans. The cost of plant shutdowns is immense, so they invest heavily in continuity of supply and do whatever the opposite of JIT is.
>> No. 37251 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 10:29 pm
37251 spacer
>>37248
Funnily enough
>China State Banks Restrict Financing for Russian Commodities
>At least two of China’s largest state-owned banks are restricting financing for purchases of Russian commodities, underscoring the limits of Beijing’s pledge to maintain economic ties with one of its most important strategic partners in the face of sanctions by the U.S. and its allies.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-25/chinese-state-banks-restrict-financing-for-russian-commodities

China probably will be happy to export, somehow, but it's unlikely to go against self-interest in its access to the far-larger US and European markets. Russia was already dependant on China for semiconductors and it's going to be tough for Russia to pay for imports even in a Yuan/barter system.

>>37249
You're thinking of 35% of US palladium supplies with 90% of the neon instead coming from Ukraine but there are alternative sources. The world doesn't work like your 4X computer games.

This is even assuming that Russia can even afford to cut its exports.
>> No. 37252 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 11:11 pm
37252 spacer

ukraine flag field.jpg
372523725237252
A friend of mine from school who has a Ukrainian wife that he met at the Euromaidan protests has shared a link for anyone wishing to donate money to the Ukrainian cause:

https://uacrisis.org/en/help-ukraine

That page has links to several other charities which you can donate to; there are ones for treating wounded soldiers and there are ones for buying more ammunition and weapons to assist in the massacre of murderous invading scum. You can probably guess which charities I am more inclined to support. A lot of them will only accept bank transfers, and I don't do any sort of online banking, so I'm going to have to find a Western Union or MoneyGram outlet tomorrow. But I plan to, because I feel extremely strongly about this.
>> No. 37253 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 11:22 pm
37253 spacer
>>37252
Not to sound soft, but I don't like the characterisation of the Russian Army as scum. I'm well aware of the immorality on display, and the events on Snake Island in particular turn my stomach, but I'm sure plenty of Russia's soldiers are just young lads without a better option. If the British Army considers working the tills at Sainsbury's reason enough to sign up, the push factors for a Russian must be through the floor in comparison.
>> No. 37254 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 11:38 pm
37254 spacer
>>37253

Individual Russian soldiers may well be perfectly decent lads who just got conscripted or signed up to get out of a shit situation, but the Russian army is institutionally malicious. The lads on the ground are just following orders, but the people giving the orders are proper bastards.
>> No. 37255 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 11:50 pm
37255 spacer
>>37242

The only reason you don't like it because he's not incorrect. It's nice to have someone else being unambiguously bad for a change though I suppose, makes it easier to sleep at night knowing our own governments are marginally less corrupt and power hungry.

>>37254

Careful, muglad will be posting pictures of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo before you know it if you keep making it this easy.

I think it's fair to say that the same is true of most militaries, much like most businesses. You don't blame the bloke delivering your bluetooth headphones for the fact Bezos is an utter bastard.
>> No. 37256 Anonymous
25th February 2022
Friday 11:57 pm
37256 spacer
>>37254
I suppose that's fair, especially given how the ship captain behaved more like ED-209 towards the Snake Island garrison than a human being.
>> No. 37257 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 12:42 am
37257 spacer
>Cabinet ministers received what one source described as an "ominous assessment" from defence and intelligence chiefs on Thursday night about what may lie ahead for the people of Ukraine. And it has now become clearer what the fears of the Western allies are.

>Ukrainian resistance to Russian President Vladimir Putin's forces is - for the people of the country - something of a double-edged sword. Intelligence assessments suggest Russian forces are making slower progress than they had envisaged. A well-placed Western official suggested Ukrainian forces had traded control of "empty spaces" and "rural areas" to concentrate on defending the cities.

>There are now significant concerns Mr Putin will look to effect his aim of regime change in the capital Kyiv "by any means necessary", that source said. That could mean the indiscriminate use of violence and the indiscriminate use of artillery - with the civilian population very much in the firing line. This view is shared in Whitehall - that the more resistance the Russian forces face, the more relentless the retaliation they will carry out. What was a war of choice for Mr Putin could become a war of necessity, which he has to be seen to win.

>In conversation with politicians and other government sources with good links to the defence and intelligence services, it is anticipated that when Russian forces formally take control of Ukrainian cities an insurgency will be mounted against them. This, one source predicted, would be "bloody and brutal". Another went as far as to express fears the tactics adopted by Russian forces at the beginning of the century in Grozny could, if necessary, be adopted again. The Chechen city was subjected to heavy barrages of artillery, costing at least 5,000 lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60532586

Good Times Bad Times are now doing day by day coverage, it already looks like things are getting especially bloody.


>>37253
>I don't like the characterisation of the Russian Army as scum

I'm sure they'll be fine.
>> No. 37258 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 1:56 am
37258 spacer
>>37257
>I'm sure they'll be fine.
It wasn't them I was concerned for.
>> No. 37259 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 3:14 am
37259 spacer
>>37257

Supposedly they're already lining up peace talks.

I wouldn't be surprised if elements within the government throw the current president to the dogs in exchange for peace. And truth be told, it wouldn't be a great loss- From what I understand the current Ukrainian president is what would happen if you crossed Are Nige with Michael Macintyre, a contrarian anti-establishment character whose election points to the corruption in the government underneath.

But of course the likely result there would be Ukraine pivoting toward Russia, which is unacceptable and incompatible with Western aims, so that won't be the end of it if so.
>> No. 37260 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 4:06 am
37260 crimea river
Taking Crimea in 2014 was probably the right move for Russia. The lease on Crimean naval facilities was set to end in 2047, and it's unlikely that a westward facing Ukraine would extend it. Consider that the 2010 Kharkiv agreement to extend the lease barely passed in the Ukrainian government, and set off protests outside the Rada and fist fights within it. Russia would lose access to Sevastopol, its only military warm water port, with its second warm water port of Novorossiysk being primarily an economic port.

Crimea is still officially recognised as part of Ukraine by most governments, and Ukrainian politicians often spout rhetoric about bringing Crimea back into the fold. The real question is this: could a Ukraine that has joined NATO, and potentially the EU decades down the line, pose a threat to Russian control over Crimea or is the idea unjustified paranoia?
>> No. 37261 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 5:34 am
37261 spacer
An idle thought: A lot of newspaper articles seem to be playing with the WW2 angle, going on about how we never thought we'd see Europeans invading and murdering one another again, how all that horror belongs in black and white photographs, how, as a result, schoolchildren will be learning about the Russo-Ukranian war.
And it dawns on me, it's all very familiar: It's very similar to what people were saying about the Yugoslav wars too. But 30 years since Yugoslavia took a nosedive I'd be shocked if the majority of the public even still remembered those, let alone more than a handful of schoolchildren - and in their case, it's probably because those blokes with the accordion and Yamaha keyboard singing about how Karadžić will lead the Serbs became a meme, rather than because their school's covered the conflict. (Though with the way budgets are, the maps probably still have a Yugoslavia, so there's that.)

Obviously the two conflicts aren't that analogous - If you asked me in a glib sort of way, this is more of a "proper war" between two fully independent countries, while the Yugoslav conflicts were a bit more like a mixture of a civil war and a series of independence wars, plus genocides. But it's not really a point about the wars themselves - just the coverage. That echo is there again, that sense of a secret desire for history to return, to be able to tell your kids that as Kyiv was hit by cruise missiles and cluster bombs, you lay on the couch in an early morning haze and caught a bit of a BBC bulletin reporting that we don't really know anything at the moment before switching over to a re-run of Tipping Point.
>> No. 37262 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 5:53 am
37262 spacer
>>37261
The other thing to remember is that relatively speaking WW2 was simple: you had some trumped-up Kraut getting himself where he wasn't supposed to be. By contrast, the history and causes of the death of Yugoslavia are fiendishly complex. It's not the sort of thing you could teach to secondary kids in a few weeks. Think about how many times you went over some part of WW2 in school, and you probably spent about 20% or more of your entire 7-14 history time on it.

Then again, the sort of people who insist this is the first major conflict in Europe since WW2 probably also think that 1066 was the last time mainland Britain was invaded.
>> No. 37263 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:37 am
37263 spacer
Being smug contrary arseholes this morning, yeah? Felt like mixing things up a bit, did you?
>> No. 37264 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:53 am
37264 spacer
>>37263
No.
>> No. 37265 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:54 am
37265 spacer
>>37264
Well you seem to hold opinions different to the ones expressed by the BBC this morning, and therefore you must be a contrary arsehole!
>> No. 37266 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:56 am
37266 spacer
>>37262

>relatively speaking WW2 was simple

Well, it is looking back on it now, with the benefit of knowing that the Nazis were the most unquestionably evil villains history will ever offer us. But I'm pretty sure that back in late 1938, early 1939, the prospect of the looming war was much less clear cut.
>> No. 37267 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:01 am
37267 spacer
>>37265
Unless the BBC were talking about how simple WW2 and its causes were this morning I'm not sure why you're claiming that. Nor could I have been influenced by the BBC Breakfast team as the only news media I've consumed today so far is the latest Guardian Football Weekly, which, funnily enough, barely made reference to the war. There was that bit where Lars went on and on about the Hossbach Memorandum, but otherwise not a peep.
>> No. 37268 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:56 am
37268 spacer

RDT_20220226_0954573416563894024680451.jpg
372683726837268
I keep seeing Ukrainians posting memes putting themselves in the position of the Imperial Guard, and it's... Well, I mean you can't really be that guy who criticises someone whose country is actively being invaded, but there's problems on a couple of levels with it.

One is that the Imperium are actually literally ultra-fascists, so this doesn't really do them any favours considering the Russian propaganda's slant on it all. And also the fact that the primary characteristic of the Imperial Guard is that they typically die in their tens of thousands every battle. It's kind of like that thing where Yanks of a certain generation compare everything in politics to Harry Potter, only a bit more tasteless.

I want to hope it's probably teenage lads who are a bit too young to really understand these implications, but I mean, if not...
>> No. 37269 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:05 am
37269 spacer
>>37268
Eh. People will be dumb on the Internet, teenagers especially so, and Warhammer neckbeards - well will they ever pick up a gun for real?
>> No. 37270 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:43 am
37270 spacer
>>37268
I really don't feel like discussing 40k lore right now, but "the Imperium are actually literally ultra-fascists" is meaningless fluff, grammatically iffy and they're still amongst the "good guys" in the silliness soup that is Warhammer in Space. Their true defining trait is one of everyday plebs trying to hold on against all odds, any fascist tendancies are probably only addressed in some terrible books no one in their right minds would read and certainly not invoked in the image used for basis of this edit you posted. Quite honestly you sound like more of a dafty for overanalysing memes someone knocked together in all of five minutes, possibly in a warzone at that. Given the very real events happening this very second I don't know why anyone would dedicate several sentences to having a minor moral panic over such imagery. Did you know the band Black Sabbath were actually invoking the imagery of witchcraft and devilry when they chose that name? I really hope Ozzy Osbourne understands these implications, but I mean, if not... I might start ending my posts with an ellipsis like a total pillock.

Alright, we're done with 40k now, moving on.
>> No. 37271 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 12:59 pm
37271 spacer
>>37270
We're never done with 40K lore. The Imperium of Man are not "the good guys" as you mention, they fall more into "necessary evil" territory. The Imperial Guard in particular is kind of based on WW1 in general and early WW2 Russian tactics: just throw bodies at it until they give up, or until technology catches up and the Big Guns come out to save you.

I'll take my shovel and go home. If home still exists.
>> No. 37272 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 1:13 pm
37272 spacer
Shut the fuck up about your toy soldiers.
>> No. 37273 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 1:51 pm
37273 spacer
Something interesting happened overnight that's not really being talked about because it's not strictly relevant to what's playing out in Ukraine now, but it's sticking in my mind regardless. Putin asked the Kazakhstan government to send troops, but the Kazakhs rejected this and have not acknowledged the existence of the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics. I assume this is because The 'Stans realised that the emotinal-non-argument Putin made about Ukraine's lack of right to sovreignty could easily be made about them also. However, I wonder why Putin asked for additional troops in the first place. Was it to force the Khazakstan government to pick a side and now he knows precisely where they stand? Does he think troops that are more foreign to Ukraine might have an easier time rampaging about inside of it? Or does he really think his troops can't or won't get the job done? I'm really struggling to understand his late night call to arms.

Not sure why either of you two would know, but I've spoken to my dogs about it several times now and they've not been the least bit enlightening.
>> No. 37274 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 2:04 pm
37274 spacer
>>37273
I suspect it was a loyalty test. Kazakhstan recently dropped Cyrillic for Latin. Putin also sent in troops to Kazakhstan to quell the fuel protests last month, so I assume this was him figuring out whether they'd deliver that favour that he thinks they owe him. He scratched their back, but they're not scratching his. I guess that otherlad would say that this means the Kazakh government have been made to look like mugs or something.
>> No. 37275 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 3:03 pm
37275 spacer
>>37273
Coalition of the willing.
>> No. 37276 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 3:20 pm
37276 spacer
>>37270

Nah, I think you sound like someone who is very bumsore at being made to consider the fact that maybe memeing about "CADIA STANDS" during an actual war where people are actually being killed is kind of crass.

Normally I'm right there with you in the "it's just a bit of fun, don't take it too seriously" camp, but the thing is, that's because it's normally over-sensitive pricks making imaginary problems out of nothing. This is about very real events which are, like you say, happening this very second; I don't think it's in any way irrational to observe that this is, at best, an unfortunate kind of comparison to make for the defenders of Kyiv.

Anyway, the camp theatrics of heavy metal are one thing, but it's quite another when you get to chaps like Varg Vikernes, Bård Eithun, or Jon Nödtveidt. There's nothing wrong with enjoying their music, but I think most metal fans would still call it tasteless to make memes about murdering bumders and starting your own genuine satanic cult; or at least, posting them publicly and not just amongst your own group of similarly dark humoured friends.
>> No. 37277 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 3:29 pm
37277 spacer

2609d493a557b98745ee29dd272d262aab3ec07dac41107dd8.png
372773727737277

>> No. 37278 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 3:39 pm
37278 spacer
>>37277

Should we make a new thread for the coming invasion of Taiwan, or just make this the Invasions General thread?
>> No. 37279 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 4:18 pm
37279 spacer
>>37278
I would vote for a new thread. But this isn't the first time someone has posted a Twitter screenshot and nothing else, and ideally we just ignore such posts. We don't want Xi Jinping thinking he can bait us into replying to shitposts if he invades Taiwan.
>> No. 37280 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 4:21 pm
37280 spacer
>A Blackpool comedy club has said it 'won't back down' after a customer from Hull demanded refunds - citing the Ukraine and Russia conflict as their reason for not attending a gig.

>Last night (February 25), owner Ryan Gleeson shared a thread of emails from an unhappy customer who he said had been trying to claim a refund for over a week. In the emails shared, the customer cited the war in Ukraine as their reason for not making the trip from Hull to Blackpool to attend a show tomorrow night (February 26).

>The email read: "COMPLAINT FOR THE MANAGER. My husband and I had planned a trip to Blackpool this weekend and we have got tickets for your (Saturday Night Laughs) show at 7.00 on the date above. I spoke to someone called Rob (if that even is his real name) on Facebook texts asking for a refund for our two tickets which we paid for IN FULL! A few weeks ago. Due to events in Russia and Ukraine it is not safe for us to travel from Hull as we are both retired. Due to this it's safer that we stay nearer to home until it is sorted.

>I told Rob that I wanted a refund and he said he would move the tickets to another date but I DO NOT want that because I don't know how long this will go on for. NO ONE KNOWS!!!!!!!! He showed me so called terms and conditions - which I did not read when I booked the tickets a few weeks ago like nobody does and nowhere in them does it say anything about no refunds FOR A WAR. As it is not in your so called terms and conditions I am legally allowed a FULL refund and I will take this to trading standards if not refunded in 24 hours. I MEAN IT."

>The email continues to demand a 'FULL REFUND' and then added: "We have already lost money on train tickets and our bed and breakfast booking as they say we have just chose to not go but this is probably just every one in Blackpool sticking together to scam people during a war. DISGUSTING. You are suppose to be a comedy store but this is NOT funny at all have some respect. My solicitor WILL be informed and I WILL report you to trading standards if you don't pay me back in 24 hours."

https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/blackpool-comedy-club-says-wont-23215651
>> No. 37281 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 4:32 pm
37281 spacer
>>37280
>You are suppose to be a comedy store but this is NOT funny at all
I bet she's kicking herself for writing that after the reaction she's got.
>> No. 37282 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 4:33 pm
37282 spacer
>>37280

"Despite offering multiple resolutions to your problem, you persisted in calling [our staff member] a liar, swearing at him and asking if he 'masturbates to a poster of Putin', at which point he, quite rightly, advised you that he was not going to continue the conversation and gave you our email address. As Rob mentioned, you are not entitled to a refund simply because you live 'nearer to Russia than we do'."

If this is all just made up for publicity, then fair play to them, it's fucking hilarious.
>> No. 37284 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 6:51 pm
37284 spacer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEuLeLt6qsk
>> No. 37285 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 7:20 pm
37285 spacer

bellend.jpg
372853728537285
That bellend who was in Afghanistan when the Taliban took over is currently in Kiev.
>> No. 37286 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 7:26 pm
37286 spacer
>>37285

>Kiev

Aha. Kremlinlad reveals himself at last! If you were a westener, you'd know everyone agreed to call it Kyiv, not Kiev, because the latter is the Russian origin of the word and the former is the true freedom Ukrainian version.

Like in Breakng Bad when his son decides he wants to be called Flynn.
>> No. 37287 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 7:42 pm
37287 spacer
>>37286
I bet I look like a real mug right now.
>> No. 37288 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 7:57 pm
37288 spacer
>>37286
I still say Kiev, and I spent half an hour in the post office trying to send money to the Ukrainian war effort this morning. All the protections for people to stop them getting scammed by crooked Ukrainians have really made it very hard to send money to Ukraine for legitimate reasons. That, or I have been scammed too. Anyway, at one point I did have to put in the charity's address, and then I did write "Kyiv" because I'm nice, but I still would have pronounced it "Kiev" out loud.
>> No. 37289 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:17 pm
37289 spacer
So I went on Nukemap to check out what would happen where I live, I'm about 5 miles away from where a 10 megaton bucket full of sunshine would drop, so I'm pretty much toast. Literally.
The site is under huge demand https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ so it's not just me thinking that Armageddon is round the corner. All it takes during the fog of war is for a trigger happy Ivan to do something like shoot at a Nato ally ship in theBlack Sea and for everything to go kinetic.
I've paid 3 grand for a new mountain bike which is due for delivery at the end of March, I'd be really pissed off if we all end up getting vapourised.
>> No. 37290 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:21 pm
37290 spacer
>>37289
I'm wondering if London might actually be less of a target due to the stunning amount of money that Putin's buddies have stashed away here.
>> No. 37291 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:32 pm
37291 spacer
I've just been talking to a high-level official in NATO who I went to school with and he said there's a 50% chance nukes will be used next week.
>> No. 37292 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:33 pm
37292 spacer
>>37290

To be fair it would probably be safer to live in a post apocalyptic Mad Max world rather than living in London.
>> No. 37293 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:39 pm
37293 spacer
>>37291


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cAZZR_Jki0
>> No. 37294 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:39 pm
37294 spacer
>>37291
Well my Dad's a Space Ranger and he says it'll be death rays.
>> No. 37295 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:44 pm
37295 spacer
>>37280

>Due to events in Russia and Ukraine it is not safe for us to travel from Hull as we are both retired.

This sounds like it could be directly lifted from When the Wind Blows. Fantastic.
>> No. 37296 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 8:58 pm
37296 spacer
>>37291
Hahaha, fuck off, you lying cunt.
>> No. 37297 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:01 pm
37297 spacer
>>37296

They already brought tactical nuke artillery.
>> No. 37298 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:07 pm
37298 spacer
>>37292
I look forward to seeing the property market only increase in value following a nuclear apocalypse. Paying 500k in bottlecaps for a 2 bed in the London commuter belt that you can't spend more than 5 hours a week in without getting radiation sickness.

The government will put a holiday on stamp duty you see.

>>37293
You've posted this before and it bugged me then as well. Russia starts randomly invading Finland and has magical soldiers appearing all over the place while the entire international situation breaks down in minutes - it tells you why we're really not in a Cold War anymore compared to what we had


>>37297
We'll just counter with rocket buggy spam.
>> No. 37299 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:07 pm
37299 spacer
>>37297
This could be a really useful and good thread, but you keep talking in single sentences and being generally useless and I think I really dislike you. Stop making me feel like this, I don't enjoy it.
>> No. 37300 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:07 pm
37300 spacer
>>37291
There's a 50% chance of anything. Either it happens or it doesn't. 50%.
>> No. 37301 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:09 pm
37301 spacer
Has anybody else's internet gone down? The Russians are supposedly cyberattacking UK ISPs.
>> No. 37302 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:15 pm
37302 spacer

e2df9ef1e70ce4e59e07f10685317e9bb2b8c6ccd79e3312e9.png
373023730237302

>> No. 37303 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:25 pm
37303 spacer

e2df9ef1e70ce4e59e07f10685317e9bb2b8c6ccd79e3312e9.png
373033730337303
Here we go.
>> No. 37304 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:27 pm
37304 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2gC37ILQmk
>>37303
>> No. 37305 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:27 pm
37305 spacer

adventure_time_dog.png
373053730537305
>>37301
Yes, I'm connected to the internet with my mind.
>> No. 37306 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:28 pm
37306 spacer
>>37303
If nothing happens, you're forbidden from ever posting a twitter screenshot again.
>> No. 37307 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 9:51 pm
37307 spacer
>>37306
I didn't think I could want world peace more than I did already.
>> No. 37308 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:01 pm
37308 spacer
That's it! That's an hour since the Tweet was made, he's done! "Forbidden", that was you said!
>> No. 37309 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:08 pm
37309 spacer
>>37308
Everything posted from that IP has been hysterical nonsense but that's not really grounds for banning him.
>> No. 37310 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:18 pm
37310 spacer

twitter screenshots are meaningless.png
373103731037310
>>37308
I can't believe it's already been an hour. Dicking around with Inspect Element to prove a point is much harder than it sounds.
>> No. 37311 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:40 pm
37311 spacer
>The EU, US and their allies have agreed to cut off a number of Russian banks from the main international payment system, Swift. "This is intended to cut off these institutions from international financial flows, which will massively restrict their global operations," a German government spokesman said. Russia is reliant on the Swift system for its oil and gas exports.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-60542433

Is it self-defence to kill my housemate who likes to be able to wear a t-shirt inside?
>> No. 37312 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:45 pm
37312 spacer
President of Ukraine says they'll give arms to anyone who wants to go there and fight the Russians.

Genuine question, how would a perfectly normal UK citizen like myself go about doing that?
>> No. 37313 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:50 pm
37313 spacer
I know this sounds childish, but am I wrong in saying Russia's making a pig's ear out of this? I was expecting T-90 tanks and BMP-2s thundering across Ukrainian fields, overwhelming Ukrainian forces hour after hour, give the length of tim Russia was building up its forces. Instead it seems to be small units trying to barrel straight down roads to whatever city or airport they're supposed to be taking, and seemingly failing each time. Nor was there any kind of pre-invasion infiltration from what I've heard, and Russian paras are dying by the plane load because they're being flown in without air supremacy on the second day of an invasion. I'm not trying to backseat a military conquest I hope fails, but it all looks very slapdash at this stage.

>>37309
I want to say you've gone soft, but there would have been a solid four years in which every other post of mine would have been a ban by that measure so I accept your ruling. Anyway, I never said I wanted him banned, just no more daft screencaps with no accompanying text.

>>37310
Never thought I'd be in alignment with Prince Bill; war produces strange bedfellows.
>> No. 37314 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:50 pm
37314 spacer
>>37312
You'd have to fly to Poland; I don't think you can fly into Ukraine any more. There might also come a point where you need to be able to speak Ukrainian. I would also expect the British government to disapprove enormously; they're trying to avoid a war so doing what you suggest would make you the new Shamima Begum. And they wouldn't even let you bring the gun back here afterwards.
>> No. 37315 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 10:57 pm
37315 spacer
>>37313
I think this is one reason we're not going fully apocalyptic with the sanctions. There's a lot more evil stuff that Russia can do that they currently aren't doing. You can't go from house to house in the Ukrainian capital of Keith, killing everyone who shoots back, without huge casualties, so they're not doing and this is reported as a great triumph for Ukraine in our pro-Ukraine media. But there's no denying you could just surround the city and drop a load of poison gas or something on it if you were really willing to do absolutely anything. The fact that they're not doing that shows that either we're not seeing the whole story from our media, or Russia hasn't gone absolutely maximum evil just yet.
>> No. 37316 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 11:10 pm
37316 spacer
Didn't Russia say they'd see it as a declaration of War™ if they got removed from Swift?
>> No. 37317 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 11:11 pm
37317 spacer

pooty.jpg
373173731737317

>> No. 37318 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 11:12 pm
37318 spacer

e2df9ef1e70ce4e59e07f10685317e9bb2b8c6ccd79e3312e9.png
373183731837318

(A good day to you Sir!)
>> No. 37319 Anonymous
26th February 2022
Saturday 11:32 pm
37319 spacer
>>37312

Unless you've got relevant experience (military, medical, logistics, engineering) you'd be more of a liability than an asset.

If you want to support the Ukrainian struggle, there are many things you can do from home.

Write to your MP. A lot of people are cynical about it, but it really does matter. Just tell them what you think about the situation and what you'd like to be done, whether that's military aid, humanitarian aid for civilians, support for refugees or whatever.

Just enter your postcode here and you can send a message straight to your MP: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/

The Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain are fundraising on behalf of a range of Ukrainian charities and will try to use your donation where it is most needed.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/helpukraine

If you want to support the fight directly, Return Alive and Army SOS are raising funds to buy equipment and supplies for soldiers and volunteers.

https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/

https://armysos.com.ua/en/help-the-army
>> No. 37320 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 12:28 am
37320 spacer
>>37319

What if I just want to go out there and shoot Russians and don't really give a shit about my own personal wellbeing?
>> No. 37321 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 12:58 am
37321 spacer
>>37320

Take a flight to Lublin and a train to Kyiv. Shouldn't cost you more than a hundred quid. Don't expect the Foreign Office to help.
>> No. 37322 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 12:59 am
37322 spacer
чифи́рь, chifir. Make strong tea.It's not going to lead to peace, but if everyone could come together to make tea, it would be a nice world.

Make tea, not war.
>> No. 37323 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 1:00 am
37323 spacer
>>37313

>I know this sounds childish, but am I wrong in saying Russia's making a pig's ear out of this?

I don't think we can really make any judgement at this point considering right now, propaganda machines on both sides are going full churn and it's pretty much impossible to discern what's actually going on through the noise.

But it's not exactly surprising if you're right and they're cocking it all right up. Because when you think about it, when was the last major Russian military operation before this? Afghanistan? They've only had tiny piddling little missions since then. The Russian army in the broadest sense, is green. It has no experience behind it, and in military terms experience matters a fuck of a lot. It arguably matters more than anything else- Soldiers and generals who have only ever done play fights will invariably bungle at least some of it, and the troops won't know what to do when the plans go awry.

One of the reasons Britain still wields considerable military influence, despite all our self defeating pessimism, is that our armed forces have had consistent real world experience pretty much every decade since The War. Even if occasionally those ventures were morally dubious, it does mean that our men are experienced in real world fighting. Not on an individual soldier level, I mean, but the command structure and the people in charge of the logistics.

Logistics are incredibly important. It's probably not an exaggeration to say logistics is more than half the battle, in the most literal sense. This is why you should actually worry about Bezos- If Amazon decided to go into military contracting, I bet they'd be able to field a frighteningly effective force on the strength of the logistics organisation alone.

But yeah we'll see I suppose. The troubling thought is that Putin can't afford to lose face, so it could either turn into a real meat grinder or escalate dramatically.
>> No. 37324 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 1:03 am
37324 spacer
>>37320

You'll certainly end up looking like a mug. Your funeral though lad.
>> No. 37325 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 1:55 am
37325 spacer

vietcong.jpg
373253732537325
>>37323

Elements of the Russian military have had significant involvement in Georgia and Syria, with alleged definite Spetsnaz activity in Ukraine since 2004. They have decent institutional knowledge of counter-insurgency from the Chechen and North Caucasus conflicts.

The broader issues IMO are corruption, poor leadership and weak morale. The Russian military is still geared around quantity over quality, which is fine if you're defending the motherland but much less useful if you're engaging in expeditionary wars.

They have a core of very capable volunteers, but nowhere near enough of them for a conflict of this scale. That presents a lot of difficult and risky strategic calculations. Do you spread out your volunteers amongst the conscripts and risk losing their effectiveness? Do you use volunteers as the tip of the spear and risk losing your supply lines to enfilade? Do you throw all of your best men at Kyiv and deal with the rest of the country later?

The Russian advantage in materiel and trained manpower looks completely overwhelming, but I wouldn't underestimate the Ukrainian advantage in morale. If the Russian advance bogs down and discipline starts to falter, things could get very unpleasant for them. Increasing levels of brutality might only serve to harden the resolve of the Ukrainian resistance.
>> No. 37326 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 3:29 am
37326 spacer
>>37311

For fuck's sake. Inflation isn't going anywhere then. Gas prices are going to skyrocket. We're definitely going to look like mugs if the sanctions we impose to punish Russia end up hurting us more than they do them. I'm sure big Vlad is terrified by us threatening to kick ourselves in the face in retribution.

Less facetiously though this is what I hate about wars and shit. We're going to be paying for this when we, the average plebs, have fuck all to do with it and most of us couldn't care less. I've never even met a Ukrainian, and I think I've only ever met one Russian. I would very much like it if world leaders could settle their disputes via one on one fist fights, and leave the rest of us the fuck out of it.
>> No. 37327 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:06 am
37327 spacer
>>37326
If you're sure of how the price of a major commodity is going to change, you should be printing money, not paying the consequences.
>> No. 37328 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 9:57 am
37328 spacer

FMjfTNdXEAgelTc.jpg
373283732837328
Anyone from the Ukraine who wants to seek refuge here better be prepared to pick veggies.
>> No. 37329 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 10:05 am
37329 spacer
>>37315
>The fact that they're not doing that shows that either we're not seeing the whole story from our media, or Russia hasn't gone absolutely maximum evil just yet.

It seems that a lot of higher-ups in the Russian military are against the war themselves, and motivation and morale amongst the Russian ranks is rock-bottom. There's bound to be commanders giving orders to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible regardless of whether the Kremlin wants that, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the rank and file Russian soldiers are intentionally holding back or draining their own fuel reserves to get out of fighting.
Many Russians have their own friends and family in Ukraine and have access to enough information to know that Putins claims are bullshit.
>> No. 37330 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 10:30 am
37330 spacer
>>37328
I believe this scheme is known in Whitehall as "Generalplan Ost".
>> No. 37331 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 1:37 pm
37331 spacer
It's happening lads, Putin has just ordered his nuclear arsenal to prepare for action.
>> No. 37332 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 2:02 pm
37332 spacer
>>37331
I'm not too fussed until he readies the Kirov airships.
>> No. 37333 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 2:44 pm
37333 spacer
>>37321

>>Don't expect the Foreign Office to help

Liz Truss has said she fully supports Brits who want to go and fight.
>> No. 37334 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 2:47 pm
37334 spacer

Screenshot from 2022-02-27 14-39-43.png
373343733437334
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba is doing a live press conference and answering questions from a few journalists. One of them asked how foreigners can sign up to go and fight if they want to. He's also been talking about what would happen if Ukraine got nuked. Ukrainians really do come across as a badass people.

I couldn't find a link to the press conference to post here, but he has already tweeted some answers to the questions. If you're serious about going to fight Russians, you can get in touch with the Ukrainian embassy and they can give you more information.
https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1497840669066502145
I also tried to get you a link to the Ukrainian embassy in London, but the website is overloaded right now.

And THAT is how you post a Twitter screenshot.
>> No. 37335 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 2:48 pm
37335 spacer
>>37321
>Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said she supports individuals from the UK who might want to go to Ukraine to join an international force to fight. She told the BBC it was up to people to make their own decisions, but argued it was a battle "for democracy". She said Ukrainians were fighting for freedom, "not just for Ukraine but for the whole of Europe".

>Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has urged foreign nationals "to join the defence of security in Europe". Earlier on Sunday, he said Ukraine was setting up an "international" legion of volunteers for foreigners wishing to join the Ukrainian army in its fight against Russian forces. "This is not just Russia's invasion of Ukraine, this is the beginning of a war against Europe. Against European unity," Mr Zelensky was quoted as saying on his official website. Everyone who wants to join the defence of security in Europe and the world may come and stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukrainians against the invaders of the 21st Century."

>Ukraine's ambassador to the UK Vadym Prystaiko said an "overwhelming" number of foreign nationals were "demanding to be allowed to fight" for Ukraine - as the Russian invasion reaches its fourth day. Ukraine has said it will arm all volunteers. Asked on BBC One's Sunday Morning programme if she would support individuals from Britain going over to Ukraine to help in the fight, Ms Truss said: "I do support that, and of course that is something that people can make their own decisions about.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60544838

Come on you two, after we get into our third pedantic argument over what we call ourselves Putin will be begging for mercy.

>>37331
I'm glad we're doing this on a Sunday afternoon rather than a Friday night.
>> No. 37336 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 3:27 pm
37336 spacer
I'll join the .gs platoon, but I've gained about a stone-and-a-half during the pandemic and the one time I went paintballing I was shot in the head six times. Didn't count as a fair hit though so technically I didn't take a shot all day. Do real guns follow this rule? Who can say.
>> No. 37337 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 3:34 pm
37337 spacer
I was thinking.

Why have people gone so properly bonkers over this? I wasn't aware that most Westerners were so closely fond of Ukraine until last Thursday, but this whole time they've been avid Ukrainophiles it would seem. It's weird considering the mild disdain with which Poles and Czechs and other such slav types are usually regarded.

Is it just because it's Russia? The baddies in all the Bond films and Call of Duty? Are people just tired after years of misery and need an outlet? Is it just that when an unambiguous bad guy does something unambiguously bad, everyone is secretly overjoyed because finally, after the grinding and relentless murkiness of the news and politics over the last ten to fifteen years, there's something everyone can agree on?

All this talk of going over there to join in the fight, it's almost like people are enjoying this. It makes me sick. I feel like everyone's lost their bloody mind.

Why don't you all go watch Threads and then subsequently calm the fuck down.
>> No. 37338 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 3:41 pm
37338 spacer
>>37337
I think it's because a country was attacked for no reason whatsoever and hundrds of people are dying as a result, you great wally. Almost all antagonism I'm seeing and hearing is directed at Putin himself, not Russia. I think your absurd notion that everyone's happy that terrible things are taking place is stupid in the extreme, it just is something most people agree on; unprovoked wars of conquest are bad. You've also managed to forget the past two years in which a similar level of agreement was reached that COVID-19 is bad, everyone, more or less, did their level best to prevent its spread.

Try typing with your fingers instead of talking out of your arse in the future.
>> No. 37339 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 3:43 pm
37339 spacer
>>37337
> It's weird considering the mild disdain with which Poles and Czechs and other such slav types are usually regarded.

You need to think harder lad. None of those countries are getting invaded, right now, but when they did we came to their help too.

I'm with you on the lust for war, and I'm reminded of the Chris Morris/Brasseye special on it.
>> No. 37340 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:12 pm
37340 spacer
>>37337
>All this talk of going over there to join in the fight
What occurred to me after seeing all the people in blue and yellow in central London today, and that is bleedingly obvious in hindsight, is that there are a shitload of expatriate Ukrainians here and around Europe; I imagine they make up the majority of those seriously wanting to go there to fight.
>> No. 37341 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:19 pm
37341 spacer
>>37338

>Try typing with your fingers instead of talking out of your arse

>>everyone, more or less, did their level best to prevent [Covid-19's] spread

I think you need to come back to reality lad, because either you're severely out of touch with it, or you live in a totally different one to me.

The dimension I live in, there were in fact widespread protests against lockdown measures, masks, and vaccines, and indeed our very own government totally disregarded it's own rules. Now, I wouldn't suggest Putin invaded Ukraine as a personal favour to pull Are Boris' arse out of the plug over his lockdown parties, but it has certainly been a boon for him in that regard, hasn't it?

Either way, to say everyone did their level best is fantasy bordering on delusion, lad.
>> No. 37342 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:23 pm
37342 spacer

984homer_bomb.png
373423734237342
>>37331


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaP_qTppD_c
>> No. 37343 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:24 pm
37343 spacer
>>37337

Most wars involve brown people in places we can't find on a map, either getting bombed by our allies or butchering each other for reasons that are inscrutable to us. This war involves white people who live lives like ours, many of whom speak very good English, being attacked by someone who controls our central heating and has had people killed on British soil.

It has been decades since a conflict threatened the established order. This war might be an isolated incident, or it might be the start of something far bigger. That possibility deserves attention, if only for self-interested reasons.
>> No. 37344 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:25 pm
37344 spacer
I always thought they'd put the doomsday clock too far forward and it meant that further issues would need to be given a smaller forward setting than less serious issues they'd bumped it forward loads for.

Now, I'm not so sure.
>> No. 37345 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:26 pm
37345 spacer
>>37342


>> No. 37346 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:33 pm
37346 spacer
>>37341
You know full well what "more or less" means, you disingenous berk. Obviously I wasn't claim 100% of people agreed with COVID-19 restrictions, but your assertion that I was suggests you believe in a time when 100% of the population did agree on specific policy points, which would seem to me to be a complete fantasy. However, overall the UK was in the same boat in combating COVID-19 and your idiotic attempt to suggest otherwise because I highlighted how full of crap you are doesn't stand up. I can't help but notice how you haven't even tried to reiterate your stupid points about the UK being chuffed to bits that hundreds of people are dying because it gives us something "everyone cab agree on". It's a ridiculous claim and I would like to see you admit as much or shut up entirely.
>> No. 37347 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:43 pm
37347 spacer
>>37346

God you're thick, fuck me.

>I can't help but notice how you haven't even tried to reiterate your stupid points about the UK being chuffed to bits that hundreds of people are dying

I can't help but notice how you're too much of a drivelling moron to understand the concept of rhetorical propositions, you fucking inbred. There was a question mark at the end of every sentence in that paragraph for a reason, you febrile ill-educated cretin.

Now you fuck off and shut the fuck up, because I don't want to spend all afternoon coming up with new ways to call you a retard.
>> No. 37348 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:52 pm
37348 spacer
>>37345


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrWz9XVvls
>> No. 37349 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 4:56 pm
37349 spacer
Think there's a cunt off happening lads. I wouldn't get too excited, the EMP from the nukes arriving soon will put an end to it.
>> No. 37350 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:13 pm
37350 spacer

Capture.jpg
373503735037350

>> No. 37351 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:20 pm
37351 spacer
>Ukrainian and Russian delegations will meet on the border between Ukraine and Belarus for peace talks, Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Sunday, four days after Russian troops invaded his country.

>Zelenskiy said he had talked with Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko, a close Russian ally, who assured him that “all planes, helicopters and missiles stationed on Belarusian territory remain on the ground during the Ukrainian delegation’s travel, talks and return.” The meeting will take place near the Prypyat River, which flows from Belarus to Ukraine north of Kyiv. Earlier on Sunday, Zelenskiy said he was open to peace talks but rejected Moscow’s suggestion to hold them in Belarus, which has been used as a staging ground for the invasion.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-peace-talks/

Looks like it is all wrapping up and China has been well and truly deterred from trying similar. Now we can go back to the rampant inflation, debt and the risk we might go into another great recession once interest rates start climbing again.

IT WUZ THE THREAT OF THE MOATY BATTALLION WOT DONE IT
>> No. 37352 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:22 pm
37352 spacer
>>37337
I personally do feel a moderate affinity for Ukraine. They've always been the underdog, and they've been harmed by Russia before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
On top of this, my personal passion is pop music from former communist countries, and the first song I ever enjoyed like that was Ukrainian. I have tracked the pop star down and I'm her fan on Facebook and I subscribe to her on YouTube, and I'm a huge fan and she replies to my YouTube comments regularly. Her sister, meanwhile, went to Russia to pursue the larger target audience there, and became hugely famous in the 1990s, and now this family is in trouble because she can never return from Russia to Ukraine now, probably. (The Ukrainian one won't die; she now works as a music teacher in Florida).

On top of this, I am slightly racist against Russia. They're so serious and humourless. Frankie Boyle went there for a documentary about Russia before the 2018 World Cup, and he asked people how they felt about the recent laws banning discussion of homosexuality in schools, and the Russians he spoke to were all convinced that evil homosexuals had to be stamped out. Similarly, I looked at the website of Soviet pop group Komissar - here's a video -

- and they seem oddly obsessed with stressing how definitely not gay they are. Even if they have to be like that because Russia is like that, it's a level of reactionary fear and stupidity that makes me root against the Russians a lot of the time, however groovy their '80s music might have been.

That's just my own personal position, of course. But the way the war has built up, it has been framed as Russia against NATO. Russia talks about NATO as the enemy. Vladimir Putin goes on TV to talk about "them vs us", and that might work for uniting the Russian people, but we've been seeing it too and we all feel very united now. Even though Ukraine is not in NATO, it feels like they are. This wild motherfucker is bullying our new best friend. It seems like he won't come for us, but it also seemed like he wouldn't come for Ukraine either, and then he did. So now we need to ask ourselves how ready we want to be if he comes for us too.

I'm sure your question is worth asking, because I don't think a lot of people being supportive knew where Ukraine was on a map any more than they did Syria or Lebanon or Yemen, and it really is the only story on the news right now, 24/7. But I don't think there's anything wrong with cheering really, really hard for Ukraine right now.
>> No. 37353 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:36 pm
37353 spacer
>>37352
>russian music video

basically a shit rip off of blue monday and no limit

why are some countries so crap at making music? is it genetic or cultural?
>> No. 37354 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:43 pm
37354 spacer
>>37352

Russians are just super, super gay. The more macho they try to be, the gayer they get. They have to be homophobic and repressed, otherwise they'd spend all their time bumming and never get anything done.


>> No. 37355 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:46 pm
37355 spacer
I think as far as evil states go, I much prefer China over Russia. Nicer buildings, better mythology, tastier food. Sexier women too. Qi lai, qi lai!
>> No. 37356 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 5:49 pm
37356 spacer
>>37334
>I also tried to get you a link to the Ukrainian embassy in London, but the website is overloaded right now.

Ukrainian Embassy website is still down, so I can't find out if they'd accept an obese, weak, autisic retard like myself with a 12 year out of date passport into their International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine unit.
It's a shame because it might be the kind of thing I'd be interested in doing on a whim.
>> No. 37357 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:02 pm
37357 spacer

FA2.jpg
373573735737357

>> No. 37358 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:21 pm
37358 spacer
>>37357

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPeXwZqYm8I
>> No. 37359 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:30 pm
37359 spacer

natalia poklonskaya.jpg
373593735937359
The worst part of all this is that Natalia Poklonskaya has a new job now, and is no longer involved with Russian-Ukrainian military conflict, so she's never on the news for this war. That's the real crime against humanity. Phwoar.
>> No. 37360 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:39 pm
37360 spacer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY6lHjZjYXE
>> No. 37361 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:42 pm
37361 spacer

prada.jpg
373613736137361
>>37360
>> No. 37362 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:49 pm
37362 spacer

Zelenska-1.jpg
373623736237362
>>37359

Zelenskyy's wife is quite fit.
>> No. 37363 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 6:59 pm
37363 spacer
>>37360
>>37361
These, espeicially the second, bring to mind those weird Russian fetish club cliques you see in The Matrix and various werewolf/vampire films.
>> No. 37364 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 7:52 pm
37364 spacer

tCBUOLX.jpg
373643736437364

>> No. 37365 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 7:54 pm
37365 spacer
>>37364

Good job posting these, I'm sure Putin will see them here and be really upset.
>> No. 37366 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 7:57 pm
37366 spacer
>>37365
I wouldn't be surprised if some Ruskielad is set on watching us.
>> No. 37367 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 8:18 pm
37367 spacer

7a86326c70164ea69603f7bc44a06043.jpg
373673736737367
>>37366

Da, but then we ended up in a cunt off with each other and didn't realise ...
>> No. 37368 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 8:57 pm
37368 spacer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nifxKIhFSuw

Russian POWs, all have pretty much the same story to tell, none of them had any idea they were going to Ukraine until they were crossing the border, and have basically just been pointed in a straight line without a plan.
Heard stories from some of the Russian furries that have similar stories, before the invasion their boyfriends were "tricked" into enlisting and took off to the border.
The whole thing seems a complete shitshow.
>> No. 37369 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 9:07 pm
37369 spacer
>>37368
The whole escapade seems to repeat the exact story I've read from the first Chechen War, especially from what I hear of the Spetsnaz units who were wasted by their commanders simply pointing them in a direction and giving no supplies or further orders so they eventually just wandered up to Chechens to surrender for want of food. I wouldn't be surprised if there's similar some catastrophic friendly fire going on or Russian and Ukrainian units just walking right past each other.

Let's hope Russia hasn't taken the lesson of levelling Grozny.
>> No. 37370 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 9:13 pm
37370 spacer

FMn5DPZVUAQsr02.jpg
373703737037370
At this rate the Ukrainians wont need all the weapons being sent from other countries, they'll have half the Russian armoury in their own hands.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1497931925046059010

https://twitter.com/i/status/1498021600288907267
>> No. 37371 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 9:35 pm
37371 spacer
>>37368
> all have pretty much the same story to tell
I'm no war expert, but is it possible that they have been told, "If you get captured, tell them this exact story"?
>> No. 37372 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 9:44 pm
37372 spacer
>>37368
A pal of mine said to me last night, and I'm not sure where he got this so it could just be his opinion so pinches of salt all round, but he said that Russian officers had been claiming wages for soldiers that weren't there and by the time they realised the invasion was on they just signed up whoever they could at short notice. Whether or not officers were stealing wages they definitely look to have scrounged up whoever they could and given them little in the way of training.

Even so I though the Russians had naval infantry, airborne troops, those lads they sent to Syria? Maybe 90% of the officer corps are completely useless.

>>37370
Christ almighty. Anyone still concerned about WW3? Farmer Dave and his big eared boy certainly won't be.
>> No. 37373 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 9:50 pm
37373 spacer
>Fifa has decided that Russia can continue their bid to qualify for this winter’s World Cup
Oh, FIFA, what are you like? I honestly don't think there has been a more debased and narcissistic organisation since the SS.

>>37371
That is not a far-fetched concept in theory, but why would you have everyone tell a story that makes the Russian military look incompotent and dishonourable? Especially when your haphazard invasion is already suggesting the former is true already.
>> No. 37374 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 10:02 pm
37374 spacer
>>37369
I think Vlad might be losing; four, almost five days in and no real progress to show of.
>> No. 37375 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 10:06 pm
37375 spacer
>>37371

The Geneva Conventions only require a POW to give their name, rank and number. It'd be a bit weird for Russian officers to give their men a cover story that makes Russia look really bad. These lads could have made up a story in the hope that their captors will take pity on them, but they seem demoralised rather than scared.

It's possible that this is a rehearsed cover story, but most of the evidence we have supports the notion that the invasion was poorly planned at the last minute by a mostly incompetent officer corps and is being carried out by mostly inexperienced and unmotivated men.
>> No. 37376 Anonymous
27th February 2022
Sunday 11:35 pm
37376 spacer
>>37374
There's a lot of heavy artillery and stuff that Russia can use, which they haven't used yet. In theory, they can escalate the conflict massively at any point and have a decent chance. However, the fact that Ukraine's tactics, as I understand them, were to abandon the countryside and focus on defending the cities, makes it look fairly unimpressive that most of the countryside is not controlled by the Russians yet.

If NATO bring in a no-fly zone, the war will either end or become global. Russian air superiority would pretty much wipe out Ukraine's chances. If Russia control the air, they can keep an eye on all the Ukrainians and prevent them from resupplying and then their days are numbered. This is why people want NATO to say nobody can fly over Ukraine and anyone who does will be shot down. But then NATO will be shooting down Russians, and I still maintain that Bad Vlad the Cad has completely lost his mind and could cause some serious global damage once his pilots start being killed by NATO forces.
>> No. 37377 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 12:08 am
37377 spacer
Vladimir Putin puts mayonnaise on chippy chips.
Vladimir Putin's ringtone is The Crazy Frog.
Vladimir Putin has only ever bought one round; he ordered the pint of Guinness last.
Vladimir Putin's soap is absolutely covered in pubes.
Vladimir Putin once paid for a packet of Chewits with a cheque.
Vladimir Putin has never thanked a bus driver.
Vladimir Putin flicks his bogeys behind the sofa, even when he's at someone else's house.
Vladimir Putin owns a complete set of Compare the Meerkat dolls.
Vladimir Putin farts in lifts.
Vladimir Putin's favourite burger is a Filet-O-Fish.
>> No. 37378 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 12:14 am
37378 spacer
>>37376

Air superiority is much less valuable in urban environments, especially if your intelligence and fire control isn't up to scratch. The Ukrainians might not need NATO air support if they're supplied with enough modern SAM systems.
>> No. 37379 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 12:19 am
37379 spacer
>>37375

>the invasion was poorly planned at the last minute

You mean like they... Weren't actually planning on invading? Muglad was right all along?

I mean think about it, perhaps Putin was just hoping a realistic enough looking threat would get him his own way, and when nobody budged, he had no choice but to either shit, or get off the pot. So to speak.
>> No. 37380 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 12:27 am
37380 spacer
>>37379

No that actually does make sense. That's what has been off from the start, if the plan was always to invade, surely they would have just up and done it with no warning. Instead they gave everyone at least a couple of months warning to prepare the defense.

Maybe it really wasn't the intention and they've just had to do it to save face. Maybe it was us that successfully called the bluff. Well, successfully enough that the casualties are within what somebody somewhere calculated as "acceptable", anyway.
>> No. 37381 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 12:41 am
37381 spacer

Opera Snapshot_2022-02-28_003527_www.youtube.com.png
373813738137381
This video is permanently in my Recommended Videos on YouTube and I don't know why. Are any of you getting it too? It feels very suspicious that it should be there when it isn't foreign pop music, as though an actual human wants me to see it. But, much like the 108-year-old man remembering World War 1, and the great storyteller who wanted to tell me about the Vietnam War, I will never watch this clickbait shit no matter how many times it is inappropriately recommended to me.
>> No. 37382 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 12:50 am
37382 spacer
>>37381
I'm confused as to why it would take him am hour and 14 minutes to say the two words "it isn't" when it takes me less than a second.
>> No. 37383 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 1:04 am
37383 spacer
>>37378
Exactly right. Also, if you study the publicly available ADS-B data, it's obvious the UK/US are flying continuous air support over neighbouring friendly countries; there are lots of AWACS, radar, electronic warfare and in-flight refuelling assets in the air right now - that is a huge multiplier, even if they're not directly over Ukrainian airspace.
>> No. 37384 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 4:32 am
37384 spacer

6465bff3f9d82cdfece7761e97d5995e5ee6677adc7eef116c.png
373843738437384

>> No. 37385 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 6:01 am
37385 spacer
It seems the rumours of the AN-225 Mirya being destroyed have been confirmed. Hardly the most tragic thing happening over there right now, but for me it certainly demonstrates the pointless destruction that war brings.
>> No. 37386 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 7:36 am
37386 spacer
>>37384
That sounds like some full on angsty emo whining.
>> No. 37387 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 8:52 am
37387 spacer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cugn8JZfk

Have I drank too much Kremlin kool-aid or was Putin being mostly pretty reasonable here?
>> No. 37388 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:13 am
37388 spacer
>>37387

In theory yes, the trouble is he's a bent bastard using the cover of some pretty reasonable and quite valid arguments regarding NATO encroachment to pursue entirely cynical realpolitik goals.

I wonder how things would have gone for Russia if he never came to power. I will be the first to say that the way the West has treated Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union has very rarely been fair or reasonable, the Clintons essentially declared open season and strip mined the place, whereas they could have built a firm ally instead, were they not such short sighted neolib ghouls.

But you have to wonder how things might have turned out if they had a leader who took the higher road and continued trying to engage with the west, instead of going stubbornly tit-for-tat like Putin has done all these years.
>> No. 37389 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:21 am
37389 spacer
>>37381

John Mearsheimer is actually a very clever bloke who knows what he's on about. There's also:

>6 years ago

So it's not about the current situation is it, you wee daftie.

You might also be interested in this article from 1993, where the very same man argues Ukraine should keep it's nukes, in case of exactly this past week's turn of events.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/1993-06-01/case-ukrainian-nuclear-deterrent

You're not the only person being recommended that video though. It's just the algorithm getting confused because of the recent interest in Ukraine. But rest assured it's not clickbait, it's a very rational and well argued lecture.
>> No. 37390 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:06 am
37390 spacer

image_2022-02-28_105507.png
373903739037390
>>37388

Few countries even reach the level of using valid arguments to pursue their entirely cynical realpolitik goals. This should go without saying, but that's not a defence of Russia. The invasion of Ukraine is a terrible move, strategically and morally.

That said, I stand by my general principle that if we have a list of political issues to care about in our lives, their order should be determined by the degree of our ability to actually affect them.

I am feeling overwhelmed by the bombardment of pro-war propaganda, and very simplistic good versus evil takes on this. Media coverage is blatantly inciting further conflict. While it is really heart-warming to see an outpouring of support for the people of Ukraine, it's less heart-warming to wonder where all of the support and media coverage goes when it's a matter of our direct involvement, and not that of an official enemy.

In short, if we care about stopping conflict, we should have spent the last several decades pressuring our own governments to deescalate and stop breaking agreements with Russia, because that's what the public here has the most power to affect. The Russian public should have done the same to the Russian government (as they are now, but preferably sooner). At this stage, with the invasion already happening, I really don't think our condemnation of Russia from the opposing side will do anything other than fan the flames and increase the likelihood of military conflict.

It would be nice if the entire thing just petered out due to lack of Russian military willpower, or better yet, if we could reach a diplomatic agreement that involved concessions on both sides, including NATO.

There. It's not much of a hot take, but it's what I have to say about this.
>> No. 37391 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:32 am
37391 spacer
With ITZ around the corner, how much rice do I need to pack? And how do I stop it spoiling from the effects of radiation and a temperature of 10 000 degrees centigrade?
>> No. 37392 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:39 am
37392 spacer
>>37391
Maybe for the apocalypse our advice should change, and we should pack corn; maybe some salt and sugar too.
>> No. 37393 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:45 am
37393 spacer
>>3739
Make sure you have a Shed Bunker.
>> No. 37394 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 11:36 am
37394 spacer
>>37385
Fuck. That's really sad. I loved that plane. Poor Antonov An-225 Mriya. It wasn't even a warplane.
>> No. 37395 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 11:45 am
37395 spacer

SPAM-fries.jpg
373953739537395
>>37392
Spam is probably the best thing for an apocalypse. It's extremely dense and it'll never go off.
>> No. 37396 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 2:15 pm
37396 spacer
>>37394

We can rebuild it. We have the technology.
>> No. 37397 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 3:09 pm
37397 spacer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QlpTlz073k
>> No. 37398 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 3:31 pm
37398 spacer
Why does every YouTube thumbnail have to have some idiot's awful face gawping at me? At the current rate of infection, in tens years time you won't be able to buy a copy of Brave New World without Aldous Huxley's mug splashed on the front, crudely doctored to emulate Twich's infamous "poggers" emote.

This is a rhetorical question do not answer it or I'll burn down your shed.
>> No. 37399 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 3:52 pm
37399 spacer
>>37398
The algorithm© likes faces, or at least that is what Youtubers have come to think as they beseech their AI god for his blessing. Fear the AI for he can unperson you at any moment.


>This is a rhetorical question do not answer it or I'll burn down your shed.

Jokes on you, I can't afford a shed.
>> No. 37400 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 5:06 pm
37400 spacer
>>37399
Maybe you'd be able to afford a shed if you included a photo of yourself (looking off to the side as well, they're always looking off to one side) in the thumbnails of your YouTube videos. You only have yourself to blame.
>> No. 37401 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 5:13 pm
37401 spacer
I don't know nowt so indulge me here.

What if Russia just adopted the US dollar? Would it be the uno reverse card of economic sanctions?
>> No. 37402 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 5:19 pm
37402 spacer
>>37401

They'd have to buy the dollars using their own roubles, they can't just print USD.
>> No. 37403 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 6:00 pm
37403 spacer
>>37402
>they can't just print USD
They kind of can, but they'd need to find someone willing to take billions in notes to make it work.
>> No. 37404 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 6:25 pm
37404 spacer

69003126d96807bc4d95fd9f04be260bc3ee7ff3b9c9f9427d.jpg
374043740437404

>> No. 37405 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 6:46 pm
37405 spacer
>>37404
Incoherent rambling I'm afraid - many of his assertions about SWIFT are just wrong.
>> No. 37406 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 7:41 pm
37406 spacer

russiancolumn.jpg
374063740637406
Seems like very odd tactics to have lines of vehicles like this.

Oh for an A10.
>> No. 37407 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 7:43 pm
37407 spacer
>>37406
Looks more like the M4 to me.
>> No. 37408 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 7:45 pm
37408 spacer

Intershop.jpg
374083740837408
>>37405

Iran have been selling oil in EUR for nearly 20 years. China buy large proportions of their oil in RMB. If Russia wanted to sell oil in RUB or create a new reserve currency they could, but they prefer to receive USD.
>> No. 37409 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 7:59 pm
37409 spacer
>>37406
The only rational explaination for Russia's performance so far is that they were trying a soft touch approach and thought the Ukrainians really would be throwing flowers in front of their convoys. That doesn't entirely make sense mind you, because why not send in a proper force just in case that wasn't the reception? Or at least have it following up the rear? I don't want to get ahead of myself mind you, it's still only been five days, and it's not like I've ever invaded a country.

I was thinking about was the way Ukraine still has an air force. I looked something up to find out why and the RUSI, at least, don't quite know either: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/mysterious-case-missing-russian-air-force
>> No. 37410 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 8:29 pm
37410 spacer
>>37409
Perhaps - I wonder whether the Russian commanders are throwing the game on purpose - in the hope that it leads to Vlad going down; 8d chess I know, but it's the only other explanation I can come up with for the very poor military performance.
>> No. 37411 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 8:47 pm
37411 spacer
>>37410
I actually heard that exact suggestion in this podcast I listened to earlier today: https://soundcloud.com/war_college/russias-war-in-ukraine-isnt

I'm afraid I've no idea when it was brought up because I was doing other things at the time as well and it was recorded Sunday morning so it's not the most up-to-date, but the chap who mentioned it was skeptical though not totally dismissive of the idea. If I had to make a call I would say genuine ineptitude is more likely than sabotage, but honestly it's anyone's guess.
>> No. 37412 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:02 pm
37412 spacer
>>37411
> If I had to make a call I would say genuine ineptitude is more likely than sabotage, but honestly it's anyone's guess.

I always agree with this theme too though - it's nearly always a cockup and not a conspiracy. I like some military observers views that part of the conspiracy is the inept/corrupt Russian military, who for a long time have been lying to the boss and have now been found out, with staggering ineptitude. It might all be as simple as diesel/fuel and people cocking up.
>> No. 37413 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:06 pm
37413 spacer

russiankit.jpg
374133741337413
>>37412
>diesel/fuel

I meant diesel/food obviously. Add ammunition to that I guess. And there are stories of how poor the equipment is - I kept this picture of some stuff supposedly captured off a Russian supposed paratrooper. The radios look shocking, and I know of many people listening in on the Russian military channels, frequencies are all over the place; there is also much amusing jamming going on, particularly of the famous UVB-76 Buzzer.
>> No. 37414 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:11 pm
37414 spacer
Anecdotal stories coming out of Belarus that a lot of the Russian stationed there were pawning off cans of diesel in exchange for cigarettes and vodka.
>> No. 37415 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:14 pm
37415 spacer
It seems Putin and his friends are going for the Bond Villain gig, but the rest of the Russian Army is trying to live up to it's stereotyping of being useless inept pissheads.
>> No. 37416 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:15 pm
37416 spacer
>>37413
>there is also much amusing jamming going on
I must confess I am perplexed by the lack of cyberwarfare so far. This is Russia's whole thing, I thought. Perhaps the US government aren't sending Palo Alto's top researchers to make Yandex Image Search replace all pictures of Putin with willies, but I can't understand how not a single script kiddie in an Anonymous mask has so far redirected the Kremlin's website to Meatspin.
>> No. 37417 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:15 pm
37417 spacer
>>37409

>The only rational explaination for Russia's performance so far is that they were trying a soft touch approach and thought the Ukrainians really would be throwing flowers in front of their convoys.

Putin wouldn't be the first deluded autocrat. It doesn't really fit though because otherwise, he is known as a quite rational and capable strategist. Misjudging the reaction of the Ukrainian people so drastically doesn't really seem like him. So it's more likely that he just has a shit military.
>> No. 37418 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:20 pm
37418 spacer

FMtMcjuWYBE54NE.jpg
374183741837418
>>37416

Many of the criminal hacking groups have been declaring themselves neutral, not Conti of course. There has been a fair bit going on, it's just not as viral or newsworthy as videos of exploding tanks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/anonymous-russia-hackers-ukraine-message-b2024989.html
https://twitter.com/BadboyBettereal/status/1498286773096656900
>> No. 37419 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 9:52 pm
37419 spacer

iraq-war-014.jpg
374193741937419
>>37413

I think the kit problems speak to wider issues in the Russian military.

There's a really bizarre mish-mash of stuff in the field. I've seen countless photos of Russian troops with uniforms that don't match or odd bits of civvy gear. Monitoring stations have found Russian radio activity right across the HF and VHF bands with a mix of encodings, we've seen at least three different generations of kit and I've seen some unverified images of Russian infantry with el cheapo Baofeng handheld transceivers.

I was wondering why this struck me as oddly familiar, but then I remembered - our lads in 2001. Bowman, Snatch Land Rovers, faded green S95, cardboard boots, the lack of helicopters, the L85A1. Our procurement system was hopelessly corrupt, our brass were out of touch, our politicians were complacent and the army were thrown into a conflict at short notice. When the war started we "discovered" problems that the P.B.I. had been complaining about for years, but it took us the best part of a decade to actually sort it out.

I suspect that Russia's military failings are basically the same, only worse. Our lads cracked on in spite of everything and did a surprisingly good job considering, because they were professionals and they were well trained to improvise. Russian conscripts don't have that in their favour.
>> No. 37420 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:20 pm
37420 spacer
https://nitter.net/clashreport/status/1498371888304766984

This is great - video footage of the TB2 drones.
>> No. 37421 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:26 pm
37421 spacer

A792E31C-E2D3-447C-B088-BADCFFF38D09.jpg
374213742137421
>>37419
>I've seen some unverified images of Russian infantry with el cheapo Baofeng handheld transceivers.

It would not surprise me at all - someone has helpfully done this to show how it should be done:
https://k0lwc.com/what-radios-are-ukrainian-military-using/
>> No. 37422 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 10:44 pm
37422 spacer
>>37421

Buying modern, off-the-shelf kit based on well-proven technology from a reputable commercial manufacturer? Nah, that'll never work. What they should do is enter an opaque and lengthy procurement process with unrealistic and excessively complex requirements and accept a lowball bid based on an incomprehensible Powerpoint presentation and some nice golf trips.

Ten years later when the project has gone massively over-budget and still hasn't delivered anything useful, there should be several rounds of inquiries that produce thousands of pages of commentary and a vague aspiration to do things differently next time. Things will not be different next time. Ajax.
>> No. 37423 Anonymous
28th February 2022
Monday 11:56 pm
37423 spacer
>>37419

I think you are spot on here, and comparing it to the state of our troops in 2001 is pretty apt.

But I think another thing to keep in mind about it, is that we kind of all knew this already. It really shouldn't come as a surprise, we knew Russia had big numbers on paper but that they were largely conscripts of limited experience, and poorly equipped. I can remember us discussing it on this site before, in threads much older than this one.

We all just got caught up in the propaganda machine, thinking Russia is the angry bear on steroids that could crush a little bunny of a country like Ukraine under its paw. What we're seeing is that evidently, that isn't the case at all. And when you think about it it makes sense, Russia has a huge landmass, but most of its population centres are towards the border with Europe; a bit like how when you look at it on a map, most of the important bits of Canada really might as well just be part of the US. We should really think of Russia much more like Germany or France, because by any measure you use, it's no stronger than either of them. Still formidable, sure, but nowhere near superpower status.

It's also funny that in a way, all of this does go to show that maybe Russian security concerns over Ukraine were actually quite well founded- They needed a buffer zone and they were legitimately scared of NATO, because they knew their own territorial defence capabilities would be extremely shaky.

Of course the elephant in the room is nukes. If conventional military were the only factor, I'm pretty sure most European countries can hold their own against Russia, and the bigger ones like us, France and Germany can probably quite confidently kick their arse. But there's always the nukes. Are the nukes in the same state as the rest of their army, where if the worst came to worst, half of them would just harmlessly make a hole in the ground on impact? Or is a nuke just a nuke? I don't fancy finding out.
>> No. 37424 Anonymous
1st March 2022
Tuesday 12:14 am
37424 spacer
>Ukraine is planning to issue a “war bond” to fund its armed forces in their battle against Russian invasion as the country sought to reassure international investors that it will not default on its debt.

>The Ukraine finance ministry unveiled its plans to raise money to fund its war effort, in the announcement of a new bond auction scheduled for Tuesday. “In the time of military aggression of the Russian Federation, the ministry of finance offers citizens, businesses and foreign investors [the chance] to support the budget of Ukraine by investing in military government bonds.” On an investor call with bond fund managers on Monday, Ukraine’s government commissioner for public debt management Yuriy Butsa described the fundraising exercise as a “military bond” aimed at “everyone who wants to support the budget in these troubling times”.

>The Ukrainian finance ministry said that the new bonds would have a one-year maturity with the interest rate offered to investors “to be determined in the auction. The proceeds from the bonds will be used to meet the needs of the armed forces of Ukraine and to ensure the uninterrupted provision of the state’s financial needs under the war,” the finance ministry said.
https://www.ft.com/content/faf894e7-f7a8-4a48-a7ce-2738441ac079

And to think, otherlad called us monsters for war profiteering. What do you think the price will be?
>> No. 37425 Anonymous
1st March 2022
Tuesday 12:28 am
37425 spacer
>>37424

Perhaps the better question is will you ever see them back?

Russia looks like it's struggling, sure, but I think it's only a matter of how long and how messy it gets before they eventually come out on top.
>> No. 37426 Anonymous
1st March 2022
Tuesday 12:49 am
37426 spacer
>>37423

>But I think another thing to keep in mind about it, is that we kind of all knew this already. It really shouldn't come as a surprise, we knew Russia had big numbers on paper but that they were largely conscripts of limited experience, and poorly equipped.

We did, but I think a few things did surprise us.

Firstly, the lack of serious strategic preparation and the weaknesses in the chain of command. The inadequacies of the Russian army in terms of training and equipment were clear, but we didn't expect so many units to end up following vague orders, wandering aimlessly or just getting lost. I strongly suspect that this confusion goes right to the top; the sheer senselessness of the invasion makes it very difficult for military leadership to develop an effective strategy, because they don't know what (if anything) they're supposed to achieve.

Secondly, the failure to make effective use of professional units. Russia does have a very capable core of professionals, but they don't seem to have made much of an impact in the conflict. The Ukrainians are concerned that they're being saved for an assault on Kyiv, which remains a possibility.

Thirdly, atrociously poor morale. We have clearly over-estimated the effectiveness of Putin's domestic propaganda, but there were also a number of unforced errors in how Russian troops were prepared and deployed. The already shaky morale of a conscript army has been further undermined by them apparently being kept in the dark - we have consistent reports that Russian soldiers have simply been sent out with no idea of what they're supposed to be achieving.

Fourthly, the spirit of the Ukrainian people. The Ukrainians have thus far demonstrated an incredible willingness to fight and seem to be prepared to take very heavy losses. Zelenskyy deserves a great deal of credit for his truly outstanding leadership during this crisis, but the Ukrainian people ultimately deserve the credit for summoning a level of patriotic unity that defies understanding.

>It's also funny that in a way, all of this does go to show that maybe Russian security concerns over Ukraine were actually quite well founded

I'm not sure that we can extrapolate so much from a botched invasion. Personally, I think what we're seeing is better explained by deep cracks within the Russian regime. The Russians have a very long history of fighting very effectively despite their only advantage being numbers. I'm almost certain that the Russians could fight vastly more effectively if they wanted to; the problem is that Putin seems to be the only person who actually wants this war.

The idea has been floated that the invasion is being deliberately sabotaged by generals with the aim of dethroning Putin, but I don't think such a conspiracy is at all necessary to explain the facts. Russian troop movements in Ukraine are wholly consistent with the actions of an army that simply doesn't care. The men don't know why they're in Ukraine and just want to go home; at best they're indifferent and at worst they're sympathetic to the Ukrainians. Everyone above them from sergeants to generals want to do just enough to avoid a charge of insubordination, without risking pushing their men into desertion or mutiny. The old Soviet joke "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" springs to mind.

If I were Putin, I wouldn't be afraid of NATO - I'd be worrying about what this fiasco says about my grip on power.
>>