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>> No. 90509 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 12:16 pm
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I don't always agree with what Monbiot says, but "The right preaches individualism, yet moves as a herd. The left preaches solidarity, yet atomises." is the most succinct summary of the current political landscape that I've read in some time.
Expand all images.
>> No. 90510 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 12:20 pm
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Sounds profound, but I think mostly just reflects the fact that the "right" has consolidated power.
>> No. 90511 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 12:58 pm
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I don't think the left is especially splintered though (he says, dissenting immediately and left-wingly), I think the right is just large and in charge. News media, governments, shady donors, etc, the right has them all locked down. It's easy for them to move as a singular mass because they don't believe in anything. There's definitely an undercurrent of nonsense in left-wing circles, for instance I've noticed some people pointlessly referring to homeless people as "houseless", but it's really very minor.

The fact is our ideas just aren't that popular. That's not to say they're dead in the water, a third of the UK still voted Labour last December, or even that the ideas are actually bad. However, we seem to be living in a period, and perhaps this is nothing unique to our present time, when suggesting the solutions to the problems we face is perceived as akin to creating problems. Left-wing public figures are immediately and overwhelmingly portrayed as bothersome, to put it mildly, when speaking out on the issues of the day. I really don't know how to overturn that, many people just don't want to concern themselves with what's gone wrong. Again, many people do, at least a third, plsu the others who voted deciedly against Toryism, but that's not enough, unfortunately.

It's also worth remembering that the two sides are not playing by the same rules. Any suitably cynical rightist could quite easily extrapolate from the final line of my previous paragraph that I was suggesting democracy had failed and that it was unfortunate the third who voted Labour couldn't rule regardless. Left-wingers, happily, don't live in the world of mass-conspiracy which right-wing figures are increasingly lurching towards as the inadequacies of their "solutions", e.g. marketisation, jumping at shadows and calling it a "culture war", are proven time and time again.

I don't want to advocate hopelessness, I'm merely saying that I, a not particularly bright imageboard weirdo, am not sure how overcome this current state of affairs and that the problems don't lie within an "atomisation" of leftists.
>> No. 90512 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 1:37 pm
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>>90511
>The fact is our ideas just aren't that popular

Weren't the proposals in the Labour manifesto, before they offered free unicorns for everyone, very popular such as renationalising the railways?

>Left-wing public figures are immediately and overwhelmingly portrayed as bothersome, to put it mildly

When Anneliese Dodds has been interviewed this past week she has regularly looked like a rabbit in the headlights, which isn't a good look for the Shadow Chancellor. I think once you get beyond Starmer you're looking at a bunch of lightweights and no-marks in the Shadow apart from Ed Miliband.

When it comes to lefty talking heads they've got a habit of coming across as insufferably smug and patronising. People don't like feeling like they're being talked down to.

There's an absolute dearth of talent. The Tories might be fucking useless but they're capable of giving the impression of competence, generally speaking.

I think people care more about how the message is delivered than the actual message itself. All the Tories need to do is bring in things like gay marriage and a higher minimum wage and they're able to steal a lot of ground from Labour.
>> No. 90513 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 4:51 pm
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No, he's got a point. Atomisation is a well explored social theory, in case any of you weren't aware, it's not just a flavourful word he's using.

Present day left wingers are all about how granularly they can break down the specific matrices of their entangled, race, gender, sexuality and so on, with a result that you have ever smaller splinter groups breaking off, and in an eerily fractal manner begin dissecting the privileges and disadvantages within these groups.

There are elements of today's left that can be described, charitably at best, as extensions of the consumer capitalist lifestyle branding marketing eco-system.

>>90511

>The fact is our ideas just aren't that popular.

I disagree. They're as popular as ever, we're just not putting them out there to be heard. Since the 1990s, the left has tried to play the individualism card in the manner of Thatcher, Reagan, Clinton and Blair. The goal was to brand ourselves as relatable to specific types of voters based on what the polling said would do well in certain groups. Policy has taken a back seat.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VouaAz5mQAs
>> No. 90514 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 5:21 pm
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>>90513
>Present day left wingers are all about how granularly they can break down the specific matrices of their entangled, race, gender, sexuality and so on, with a result that you have ever smaller splinter groups breaking of

We should remember that this has been and is a legitimate tactic, used widely in the US right now, for breaking up left leaning organisations, especially ones that make noise.
>> No. 90515 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 5:24 pm
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>>90512
>Anneliese Dodds has been interviewed this past week she has regularly looked like a rabbit in the headlights

Just awful and needs to be replaced.
>> No. 90516 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 5:53 pm
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>>90515
Whom with? I've never known the calibre of politicians to be so low.
>> No. 90517 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 7:14 pm
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The problem with the Left is that you focus too much on what's going wrong, you can see it as the narrative of this thread:
"Why are we failing? Why are we not doing well? etc etc."
If you keep drumming this defeatist attitude into yourselves, you'll never gain popularity. It's self-perpetuating. You should adopt some of the attitude of the right which is "Yeah, we failed, so what? here's what works..." That's what people respond to.
>> No. 90518 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 7:33 pm
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>>90517
A lot of Tory voters I know are under the impression that Labour hate aspiration and if you are successful they'll punish you for it.
>> No. 90519 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 7:39 pm
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>>90518
We've got our own temporarily embarassed millionaires then? Typical.
>> No. 90520 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 8:21 pm
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>>90509
The centre left ground has survived in Scotland quite well, in contrast. Even Centre Right people that would have voted Tory In England are voting SNP, whereas Labour are completely irrelevant because the have no political identity anymore.
>> No. 90521 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 8:32 pm
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>>90520

That's the power of nationalism, after all. It brings people together around a collective, abstract identity.

Historically this is why it has been such a successful stance for extremists, and why the word itself is tainted. But let's call a spade a spade eh, it's what is granting the SNP success.
>> No. 90522 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 8:42 pm
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The way I see it:
The left generally wants to build a better world, which means they're always fighting with people who're anything less than perfect because they're potentially detrimental to that project.
The right generally wants to prevent the world getting worse, or to restore a past ideal, which means they're much more able to build coalitions around what they hate about the way things are going.

So all it takes for the right to win is for the left to lose, but it's quite easy for the right to lose without the left winning.
>> No. 90523 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 8:54 pm
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"the problem" is that we can have a thread like this talking about the problem with the left or right, as if they are personality traits over systems or styles of governance.

Nobody would have used a phrase like "the problem with the left is..." 20 years ago, it would have been a specific person, policy, or campaign.

This is, of course, exactly what The Right wanted to happen.
>> No. 90524 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 8:58 pm
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>>90521
SNP won a majority in Holyrood in 2011 when Independence was polling below 30%. Labour have lost so much ground in Scotland to the SNP for many different reasons over the years, but only relatively recently has the main catalyst behind their decline been their opposition to a second referendum (recent polls show support for Independence at ~60%, but up until late last year it had remained stable at ~45%).

For example, there is a large portion of the Scottish electorate that voted Labour for decades and now vote Tory, because of Jeremy Corbyn's alleged IRA sympathies. True or not, the Loyal Orange Order and their sympathisers believe it as gospel and attempt to convince anyone who'll listen.
>> No. 90525 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 8:59 pm
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>>90523
Well you've fallen for the trap then haven't you?
>> No. 90526 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 9:04 pm
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>>90525
>> No. 90527 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 9:16 pm
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>>90526
I wasn't sure if you were ending your post with a self-defeating statement ironically for comedic value as that would have supported the arguments I made >>90517 here. We don't have much of a sense of humour those of us on the right.
>> No. 90528 Anonymous
25th September 2020
Friday 10:50 pm
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>>90524
It doesn't help that Scottish Labour has always been terribly run. Fat and lazy after decades of dominating Scottish politics, they took the brunt of the blame for how uninspiring the first 3 terms of the Scottish parliament were, sending a bunch of non-entities to staff it because all of their big hitters (except Dewar, who died.) wanted a real job in Westminster.
Full of genuinely pathological loathing for the SNP (It's hard to think of any English precedent. The CPGB-ML has warmer words for the Conservatives than Scottish Labour has for the SNP) they destroyed their credibility as an opposition by constantly crying wolf, and with the the stupid old "Elections are won on the centre ground, which is eternally where Blair was in 1997" axiom in mind they've traditionally attacked the SNP from the right, opposing popular policies like free tuition and prescriptions on the grounds of being "something for nothing".

Their last chance to retake power was probably 2011, which they blew spectacularly for those two reasons. They've notionally wobbled left in 2016 and will probably stay there in 2020, but as the third party they're about as relevant as the Liberal Democrats and far more institutionally dysfunctional. Scottish Labour is a talent vacuum with no policy credibility (and no big ideas) staffed and run by non-entities who are so blinded by hatred for the SNP that they'll never figure out how they were outflanked by them. And I say this as a member.
>> No. 90529 Anonymous
26th September 2020
Saturday 1:45 am
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>>90528
>And I say this as a member
Jesus Christ.

Never knew it was this bad up there. Got any other mad long posts? I love reading them when I am drunk.

As another thought, how can I become Scottish person? Basically, how long do I have to wait until my son can get free tuition?
>> No. 90530 Anonymous
26th September 2020
Saturday 8:41 am
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>>90529
Three years.
https://www.saas.gov.uk/files/284/saas-guide-to-undergraduate-funding.pdf

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