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>> No. 425684 Anonymous
5th April 2019
Friday 11:36 pm
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So am I the only one who is getting a bit annoyed by this whole Greta Thunberg cult, or am I just too much of a cold hearted cynic that the world would be better off without?

I don't doubt the legitimate concern of her generation over climate change, after all it will fall to them to sort out the utter fucking mess that we have left the planet in, but all the awards that she is now being showered with are IMO just middle aged and old people's guilt over their own failure to save the planet's climate despite having had decades of prior warning, and who lost their way and succumbed to high carbon footprint consumerism somewhere between 1990s road protest villages and today's school runs in a 4x4. None of it feels sincere or genuine, it's more like, yeah, just take all these awards and shut the hell up already.

And parents whose children now protest every Friday or so are now engaging in pissing matches on twitter and Instagram to show off which one of their kids gets the most involved. As one commenter said, nothing good has ever come of a youth protest movement that was applauded by parents.
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>> No. 425979 Anonymous
18th April 2019
Thursday 7:56 am
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>>425964
Move to a part of the country that isn't London. Problem solved.
>> No. 425984 Anonymous
18th April 2019
Thursday 9:16 am
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>>425973

>when in actuality outside of a few bubbles most people are happy enough in the gender binary

This. Breaking up the "gender binary" is really only an issue for a small minority of the population, when the majority really couldn't give a toss. But gender studies and certain strands of fishing will have you believe that the exact opposite is true.
>> No. 425985 Anonymous
18th April 2019
Thursday 9:20 am
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>>425964

Well that should have bern a consideration at the end of the last housing bubble circa 2008-09. House prices don't always just rise, they oscillate in an upward long-term trend. And the next time the property market goes tits up, there will be another opportunity to buy an affordable house.
>> No. 426002 Anonymous
18th April 2019
Thursday 7:57 pm
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Various London XR encampments seem to be thriving as of about an hour ago. Internet grumps who like to whine about being potentially mildly inconvenienced don't seem to have had much of an impact. Protesters from quite a wide range of backgrounds though more people who can take time off easily than not because obviously that's going to happen with any sort of week day protest. I'll head back down tomorrow evening, stay over night perhaps.
>> No. 426003 Anonymous
18th April 2019
Thursday 8:03 pm
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>>425985
>And the next time the property market goes tits up, there will be another opportunity to buy an affordable house.
It's almost as if you don't understand the reason why the market went tits up.
>> No. 426018 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 10:36 am
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>> No. 426019 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 10:41 am
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I just don't understand how people can observe and be aware of how our governing classes function and yet still genuinely believe they can cause them to change their ways by doing anything like this. It's already too late and nothing peaceful or of this relatively tiny magnitude will do anything to change the people in power who make too much money and are too old to care about the trajectory of our ecosystem.
>> No. 426020 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 10:50 am
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>>426019
“We are running out of time but there is still hope…” - Sir David Attenborough. Do you think he understands or nah?
>> No. 426021 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:25 am
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>>426020
Everyone campaigning to end climate change, by definition, either believes the planet can be saved or publicly claims the planet can be saved for other political means. And I don't mean to make the latter sound conspiracist - for instance if Attenborough genuinely thinks we are past the point of no return, maybe he just doesn't say so because he doesn't want society to panic and break down.
>> No. 426023 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:35 am
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>>426021
>Everyone campaigning to end climate change, by definition, either believes the planet can be saved or publicly claims the planet can be saved for other political means.
Neither of those sweeping generalisations apply to me, so you're wrong. No doubt there are other exceptions.
If Attenborough didn't want people to panic then maybe he wouldn't be so heavily involved in creating programs about climate change. That wouldn't make any sense at all.
>> No. 426024 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:58 am
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The problem with Extinction Rebellion is that they're not extreme enough. What they need to do is behave like absolute dickheads, preferably in London because that's far away from my house, so that once they've brought sufficient attention to the issue another group with actual broad appeal can then start to constructively address the issue with the powers that be.

Instead we've got flaccid cocks like Robin Boardman-Pattison or luvvies like Emma Thompson flying thousands of miles to join the demonstration, which consists of middle class people knitting, doing yoga and crying because they didn't disrupt any flights from Heathrow or because Jeremy Corbyn didn't want to eat any of the chocolates they brought for him. It's preaching to the choir. Too middle class. Too cosy. Too hypocritical. Too easily dismissed. If they don't arrange something for the next bank holiday weekend entitled "The Great Climate Cunt-Off" then it's clear they won't amount to much other than ego stroking.
>> No. 426025 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:14 pm
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>>426024
>Luvvies
Oh, hello, Noel Coward.
>> No. 426026 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:16 pm
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>>426021

The planet is fine, it's us that are in trouble. We (almost certainly) won't become extinct, but things will get decidedly unpleasant for us over the next century. polars will expand, storms will become more deadly, floods will become chronic and eventually low-lying areas will be consumed by the sea.

We have already irreparably altered the climate, but we can still limit the damage. If average ocean temperatures rise by one degree, the Norfolk Broads disappear under the waves. After two degrees, we lose most of the south coast. After four degrees, you'll be able to take a ferry from Cambridge to York. It's too late to save the Broads, but we can avoid the rest if we act swiftly.
>> No. 426027 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:22 pm
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>>426025
If someone is prepared to take a c. 5,400 mile flight from Los Angeles to London to join a demonstration on climate change, whilst showing sufficient lack of awareness that they can't even get the Extinction Rebellion egg timer logo the right way round on their dungarees, then it's safe to say they're rather pretentious and superficial.
>> No. 426030 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:33 pm
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>>426020

I too believe there is still time, but I don't believe we can actually convince or change our politics or corporate culture in time, and certainly not by camping on a bridge.

Every time I say this I'm accused of either denying climate change or just not caring, and it's very tiring. I care a lot, and it frustrates me that everything we're doing as a society is basically not helping. Buying a bamboo toothbrush or camping on a bridge is an infintessimally small drop in the ocean, but I genuinely don't believe we can actually change the course of world industry and leaders at this point. They demonstrably are fine with whats happening, and it'll take billions of coordinated people to change that - and that's not going to come from XR.
>> No. 426031 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:46 pm
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>>426027

People travelling from all over to come to a protest that they're not really invested in...sounds exactly like Dale Farm. That one was chock full of rentamob protesters who didn't give a shit about the cause, they were only up for a ruck.
>> No. 426032 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:51 pm
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>>426030

It's certainly not going to come from naysayers sitting around handwringing and coming up with reasons to do nothing at all on the Internet.
>> No. 426033 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 12:55 pm
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>>426032

This is the frustrating part. I'm saying outright I don't believe anything other than a coordination of billions would do anything, and you're still convincing yourself that a few thousand people out there are actually doing anything. The difference between what I'm doing right now and what XR are doing right now is absolutely negligible. Keep doing it if you want, I'm not saying you shouldn't, but I believe fully it is not helping at all.
>> No. 426034 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 1:03 pm
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XR really highlights that really only middle class people have the time and capability of worrying about climate change. Working class people might be fully aware of the damage being caused but they also have to work to live and can't particularly pay the premium for sustainable food and products, let alone afford time off work to protest. Even if those working class folk are aware of the problem and distressed by it, they are likely stuck working for one of the big polluters anyway, and unless we completely remake society to remove that issue then we will never have enough people on board to bring this damage to a stop. How do we do that? No fucking clue, I'm not sure we can. Vote Green Party.
>> No. 426035 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:03 pm
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Whatever happened to carbon taxes? Did the trading schemes just turn it into a nothing?
Asking people to use less energy while it's cheap and their neigbours still do - seems like asking a lot of the average citizen.
(That said, I've just taken the govenment's shilling to get an electric car, so maybe I'm more bribeable than most?)
>> No. 426036 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:04 pm
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>>426034

>really only middle class people have the time and capability of worrying about climate change.

Unfortunately, this is very true. And I wouldn't say that being aware of climate change and wanting to protest against it are an intellectual feat, which they are by no means, but it appears you have to have a certain level of education to want to take part in an anti-climate change movement.

Some countries are now debating the introduction of a carbon footprint tax, which would impose an additional tax on everything from petrol to an airplane flight or even consumer goods, but also groceries, based on the amount of CO2 production that they cause. This is all not a problem for middle class people who have a decent income and have choices in what they consume, but if you are poor and depend on cheap food from Lidl or Iceland, then that CO2 tax will take away much more of your income in relative terms than it will from people who are better off.
>> No. 426038 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:19 pm
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>>426036

I don't even think it's about the education, it's more about being financially and socially mobile enough to have a voice at all. All the 'bastards complaining about not being able to get to work on time' because of these protests are often just people who simply can't afford to get their pay docked for being late. I was well aware of climate change when I was in a minimum wage job, I just didn't have much opportunity to think about it or certainly do anything about it.

Telling these people they should be cycling to work or getting a bus is fine until you realise that might not be cost effective or time effective for them. A single mother can't afford the fancy dutch cargo bike that middle class people want everyone to take their kids to school in, nor do they always work jobs easily or economically accessible by greener public transport. Poor people need cheap petrol and mass produced food right now, that's unavoidable.

Besides all that, looking to individuals to make changes is, in my view, and I'm sure in actual fact, the wrong end of the wedge. I can start bringing my own paper bags to the shops but until factories stop pumping out billions of litres of pollution per second that's hardly going to do much.
>> No. 426039 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:41 pm
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They say the rainforest is decreasing, right? Wouldn't climate change rejuvinate it?
>> No. 426040 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:43 pm
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>The Government must tell the truth about the climate and wider ecological emergency, reverse inconsistent policies and work alongside the media to communicate with citizens.
>The Government must enact legally binding policy measures to reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2025 and to reduce consumption levels.
>A national Citizens' assembly to oversee the changes, as part of creating a democracy fit for purpose.

I agree with Gove on this, Britain does care and we've done tremendous work in cleaning our act up. If anything we might be too cavalier in how we intend to be squeaky clean while engaging in post-Brexit international trade and decided the national grid doesn't need surplus capacity.

There's more to be done but if we're talking net zero in 6 years then really you're in space sunshade territory or even beyond. Go home.

>>426002
Do let us know in advance if any of your friends will be fucking with the underground tomorrow afternoon. I'm not snitching, I just have plans and would like to enjoy my Easter weekend.

You can be our man on the inside.

>>426034
If the working class is so shit then how can they afford to put on yellow vests and racially abuse civil servants all day?
>> No. 426041 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:46 pm
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>>426039
Not if the Brazilians keep chopping it down to farm cattle, no.
>> No. 426042 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:53 pm
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>>426038

>Besides all that, looking to individuals to make changes is, in my view, and I'm sure in actual fact, the wrong end of the wedge. I can start bringing my own paper bags to the shops but until factories stop pumping out billions of litres of pollution per second that's hardly going to do much.


Also, there is a lot of hypocrisy on behalf of the educated middle class who pretend to be all for saving the planet, but what I have personally witnessed numerous times was people pulling into a Lidl car park in their SUV and carrying a Bag For Life. No amount of Bags For Life anybody will ever own and use can make up for the fact that you choose to go grocery shopping in an SUV, and to a place that sells unsustainably produced, high carbon footprint groceries.

The newest culmination, although not entirely without good reason, is the new Swedish invention of flight shaming. In short, people who can be seen via their social media accounts undertaking frequent flights to far away locations are being criticised by online mobs for creating a large carbon footprint that way. I believe I've read that in some countries, a few local Green Party members have had to close down their social media accounts because of this. Talk about do as I say, don't do as I do.

And while it is true that modern aircraft have better fuel economy per person than a car if you convert the kerosene that is burned by that airplane into miles per gallon per person, naturally if you travel 20,000 miles to Australia and back just once, you will still have consumed more fuel than your car back home will use during two years of normal operation.
>> No. 426043 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 2:56 pm
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>>426039
Trees are natures dole-scum. There's a plan but it involves us having to cluster-bomb large sections of land with seeds so they can suck up all the carbon but which will cause it's own problems if having thorny bastards everywhere:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/04/invasive-mesquite-spreads-across-east-north-south-africa/
>> No. 426044 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 3:07 pm
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>>426040

>net zero by 2025

Net zero in 6 years? I'm in favour of green polices but that feels pie in the sky.
>> No. 426045 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 3:07 pm
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>>426040

>net zero by 2025

Net zero in 6 years? I'm in favour of green polices but that feels pie in the sky.
>> No. 426046 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 3:24 pm
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>>426044

>Net zero in 6 years? I'm in favour of green polices but that feels pie in the sky.

It's bullshit any way you look at it.

Just like that Vision Zero goal by the European Commission with which they seek to reduce traffic accident fatalities EU wide to zero, albeit by the year 2050 I think, and which mean that among other things, new cars from 2022 will have to have automatic speed limiters installed that effectively prevent you from breaking a posted speed limit by automatically reducing your engine power so you can not go significantly faster, unless it's for a few seconds at a time that you are overtaking somebody.

It would be nice to think that these kinds of lofty goals dreamt up by some out of touch politicians would be realistically attainable. But they aren't. And instead, we are all being made to feel bad for not meeting those goals, when in reality they were rather quite daftly formulated to begin with and are in their own way the modern equivalent to saying Let them eat cake.
>> No. 426047 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 4:05 pm
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The Mail have published an article highlighting the discarded rubbish and number of single use plastics and disposable coffee cups used by the crusties.

>>426042
>The newest culmination, although not entirely without good reason, is the new Swedish invention of flight shaming. In short, people who can be seen via their social media accounts undertaking frequent flights to far away locations are being criticised by online mobs for creating a large carbon footprint that way. I believe I've read that in some countries, a few local Green Party members have had to close down their social media accounts because of this. Talk about do as I say, don't do as I do.

The person I know most vocal about climate change has been on yoga holidays to North America, Africa and Asia in recent years.
>> No. 426048 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 4:27 pm
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>>426047

>The person I know most vocal about climate change has been on yoga holidays to North America, Africa and Asia in recent years.

And let me guess, that person gets in a huff about you driving to work every day in your own car, and won't shut up about how you are killing the planet by using plastic bags.
>> No. 426051 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 6:08 pm
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>>426047
>The Mail have published an article highlighting the discarded rubbish and number of single use plastics and disposable coffee cups used by the crusties.
>> No. 426054 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:10 pm
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>>426051

The fact is though there are absolutely alternatives to those things. You can absolutely 100% participate in society right not without ever using a plastic bag or coffee cup, especially in London. Even I bring my own cup to Costa and I'm a fucking northerner.

It's just further evidence XR is one big self righteous party.
>> No. 426055 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:11 pm
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>>426045
The fact it feels pie in the sky (and I do share that feeling) is probably the reason we're going to boil the oceans away.
The quote that sticks with me is "We now find it easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism", because it gets pretty close to the issue. I'm not saying the solution is socialism. I don't think we're going to find a solution, but the quote quickly captures our inability to seriously imagine an alternative.
>> No. 426056 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:13 pm
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>>426047

The person I know most vocal about it (and constantly posting stuff from the scenes of crusties) is a professional cyclist that flies all over the world to race bikes. When she's not posting about sustainable socks she's posting pictures of her substantial air miles. I don't understand.
>> No. 426058 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:23 pm
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>>426054
I'm tired of this sort of petty grasping for apparent hypocrisy. I mean if they had a XR private jet then sure, that's just taking the piss. "You used the wrong bags!" is just wank though. Who cares? Did the man use the cup? God forbid.
>> No. 426059 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:32 pm
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>>426058

>Who cares?

Typically, the people who care about climate change do. Aren't they supposed to be wanting people to stop using one-use items derived from petrochemicals?
>> No. 426060 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:40 pm
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>>426047

Anyone who criticises air travel usually misses the critical detail that for miles travelled and the number of people serviced it is profoundly efficient in terms of carbon footprint. More so that say a local bus (only really a train or a fully laden coach have comparable ) It is just the sheer distance and neither are really a practical replacement. You might be able to catch the euro star a few hundred miles. But try traveling to say China on the train (which you could) and you'll noticed the not to subtle difference between them.
>> No. 426061 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:40 pm
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>>426047

Anyone who criticises air travel usually misses the critical detail that for miles travelled and the number of people serviced it is profoundly efficient in terms of carbon footprint. More so that say a local bus (only really a train or a fully laden coach have comparable ) It is just the sheer distance and neither are really a practical replacement. You might be able to catch the euro star a few hundred miles. But try traveling to say China on the train (which you could) and you'll noticed the not to subtle difference between them.
>> No. 426062 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 7:49 pm
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>>426059
One would hope the people who care about climate change would be smart enough to think on the systems level rather than appointing themselves the cup mutaween.
>> No. 426063 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 8:09 pm
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>>426062

And yet they reckon camping out on a bank holiday will save the environment.
>> No. 426064 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 8:10 pm
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>>426048
She actually travels a lot by car. She's very big on chastising others for materialism, such as buying an expensive watch, so will make a big point about things like how she was shopping for a car and then decided to get one for half the price she was originally looking for because spending big isn't everything... before splurging on a pair of Louboutin shoes.

When she's not talking about bollocks such as this she's sharing her wisdom on parenting and boasting about how advanced her children are for their age. She has never taken the children with her on a single yoga holiday.
>> No. 426067 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 9:07 pm
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>>426061

>for miles travelled and the number of people serviced it is profoundly efficient in terms of carbon footprint

No it isn't. Per passenger-kilometre, it generates significantly more CO2 emissions than any other mode of transport aside from a single driver in a supercar.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/media/infographics/co2-emissions-from-passenger-transport/view

It gets worse, because emissions at high altitude have a greater warming impact than emissions at sea level and CO2 isn't the only emission from aviation with a warming effect on the climate. We still don't fully understand the science, but there is a broad consensus that emissions from aviation cause 2-3 times more warming than an equivalent amount of CO2 emitted at sea level.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-challenge-tackling-aviations-non-co2-emissions
>> No. 426068 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 9:36 pm
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>>426067
Not arguing against the point, but is there anything that breaks down aircraft in more detail? The assumption of 88 passengers average per plane seems remarkably low. I'd doubt if that's even break even loadfactor for many airlines. Presumably the figure is being dragged right down by short flights.
>> No. 426070 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 9:50 pm
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>>426068

>>426068

>Presumably the figure is being dragged right down by short flights

That'd be my assumption too. There are a lot of domestic short hauls with small planes that will bring that down. Even just looking at my local airport for the last couple of hours, there's been three or four 70-odd seat Dash 8 for every 150-300 pax jet, and the former are rarely fully loaded mid-week.

I reckon yank city hoppers like Austin to Dallas are underpopulated and flown frequently, too.
>> No. 426071 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:30 pm
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>>426064
I guess if you don't like one of your coworkers we should just acidify the oceans and abandon green energy wholesale then, it's the only possibly conclusion to you having an annoying workmate who may or may not exist.
>> No. 426072 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:34 pm
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>>426061
I get the feeling that a lot of the professional whiners who complained about Emma Thompson flying to London might have missed a crucial detail about the commercial flight she took to get there. With or without her, that plane was going to fly anyway. The inefficiencies in flying are related to large shipments of fresh air being flown across a continent.

People are right to notice that action on the individual level is a marginal gain at best, but go ask Sir David Brailsford what he thinks of marginal gains.
>> No. 426073 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:48 pm
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>>426068

The average scheduled long-haul flight does about 114g/CO2e per passenger kilometre. An economy-only charter aircraft with near-100% occupancy can manage 68g/pkm. After applying a conservative 1.9x multiplier to account for altitude effects, the climate impact per mile is roughly equivalent to a single occupant in a large SUV. In the best case scenario, aviation is still pretty bad.

There's also the obvious fact that the speed of jet aviation allows people to rack up massive mileages without really noticing it. The sustainable limit is about 2,000kg/CO2e per person per year, which would be gobbled up by a transatlantic return flight. Driving 7,000 miles in a big car over the course of a year feels like a lot of travel, but a long weekend in New York sort of doesn't. It's really hard to see how jet aviation can possibly fit into a sustainable transport mix.

http://lipasto.vtt.fi/yksikkopaastot/henkiloliikennee/ilmaliikennee/ilmae.htm
>> No. 426074 Anonymous
19th April 2019
Friday 11:58 pm
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>>426060

>Anyone who criticises air travel usually misses the critical detail that for miles travelled and the number of people serviced it is profoundly efficient in terms of carbon footprint.

The point that you are missing though is that it's not a question about airplanes using less fuel per distance per person than your car, which they undoubtedly do, but that you choose to go to those far away destinations in the first place instead of spending your holiday somewhere closer. Even if you drive your car to the south of Spain, with two occupants and luggage, in total, you will have burned less fuel than you would on your round trip to Australia. Say you go to Gibraltar by car. Google Maps says that's about 1,475 miles from London. Let's assume your car gets 25 miles to the gallon, that means 118 gallons of fuel will be needed for the round trip.

If you take a plane to Australia and back, that's roughly 20,000 miles, and a Boeing 747 is said to get around 100 miles per gallon per person. That's 200 gallons of fuel burned on your round trip, per person. But if there are two people going to Gibraltar in your car, you will have consumed only 59 gallons per person. So your trip to Australia has used nearly three and a half times as much fuel as driving your car to Gibraltar and back.

So even if you argue that passenger airplanes are more fuel efficient than cars (you could also rightly say that flying to Gibraltar would use even less fuel per person), the problem is that too many people go on long-distance flights too often, mainly because commercial air travel has simply become too cheap. And part of the problem are all the no-frills airlines of the last 20 years. It may be all good fun to go on a stag do to Latvia for 100 quid round trip, but it just isn't an environmentally friendly business model, because it means air traffic as a whole has become too much. I remember we once flew to Alicante some 25 years ago, and the price per person round-trip for the tickets was around £300. As I said, 25 years ago. In today's money, that would probably be around £500. And people accepted that air travel was expensive, and that it meant that you could only afford it about once a year, and usually not much further afield than Alicante. A friend of my dad's used to fly to Los Angeles for business occasionally around the same time, and he always said something that it cost his employer £600 to £700 each time with British Airways.

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