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|>>|| No. 86935
This man is not going to be the next Prime Minister of the UK, and it's going to be fucking awesome.
|>>|| No. 87317
Until the privatisation of BT and the deregulation of the telecoms market in the early 80s, the phone network was a state-owned monopoly. There was invariably a waiting list to get a phone line installed, usually of several months and often of well over a year. You couldn't buy your own phone handset, but had to rent one from the GPO. When computer modems and fax machines arrived in the late 70s, you couldn't just buy one and plug it into a phone socket because a) there were no phone sockets and b) it was illegal to connect your own equipment to the phone network.
Corbyn and McDonnell's plan takes us back to the bad old days of the GPO, the "take it or leave it" option of telecoms. Nationalising Openreach and offering free universal broadband would almost certainly kill off private sector competition, whether by accident or design - it's very difficult to maintain viable economies of scale when you're competing with a free product.
Our current broadband market is imperfect in many ways, but most customers have a meaningful choice of services, from whatever bargain-basement broadband is cheapest through to specialist providers like A&A and Zen. Broadband providers are kept at least somewhat honest by the threat of competition - if your broadband is unspeakably shit, you can switch to another provider. Regulation by OFCOM gives you the right to do this without penalty charges if you don't get the speed you were promised by your provider.
If Corbyn's British Broadband takes over the market and kills off the competition, what are you supposed to do if they fail to invest in infrastructure and your broadband slows to a crawl? What do you do if you've got a fault but can't get an engineer out? What do you do if wireless routers offered by British Broadband are all dogshit? What if you need redundant failover or bonded lines? What's to stop them from blocking websites at will, without any oversight from parliament or the courts?
Deregulation and privatisation was a huge step forward for the telecoms industry in the UK. We got cheaper calls, better service and new technology. I can't see how renationalisation could be anything but a retrograde step.
The government could choose to fund the roll-out of fibre-to-the-home on a competitive basis, recoup the cost of the investment through loan agreements or network access charges and keep the market honest with minimum speed and maximum price regulations. That's exactly how South Korea became the world leader in broadband.
As far as I can see, this plan is at best naive and at worst an authoritarian power-grab veiled in a tacky bribe.
|>>|| No. 87318
>You couldn't buy your own phone handset, but had to rent one from the GPO. When computer modems and fax machines arrived in the late 70s, you couldn't just buy one and plug it into a phone socket because a) there were no phone sockets and b) it was illegal to connect your own equipment to the phone network.
And what on earth makes you think a national fibre network would even remotely compare to this? The closest comparable project is in Australia, where under the NBN project FTTC was installed to vast swathes of the country, and while it's been less than ideal, nothing even remotely close to what you're suggesting has happened there.
>Nationalising Openreach and offering free universal broadband would almost certainly kill off private sector competition, whether by accident or design - it's very difficult to maintain viable economies of scale when you're competing with a free product.
Nationalising Openreach means no more gouging for profit and the network can be expanded based on politics rather than whether some company can be bothered to pay for it. Remember, Openreach is itself a monopoly. BT plc were basically gifted an existing national asset, which over the years they have demonstrably abused. Any sort of network issue has to go through Openreach, and they already have no incentive to fix anything, because if a telco doesn't like the service it's not as if they can switch network providers.
>What do you do if you've got a fault but can't get an engineer out?
I don't know. What do you do right now if you've got a fault but can't get an engineer out?
>What do you do if wireless routers offered by British Broadband are all dogshit?
The same thing you do if wireless routers offered by your current ISP are all dogshit - buy your own. It's not like they're going to go back to banning you from using your own kit. There are EU rules about that, you know. Oh, right.
>What if you need redundant failover or bonded lines?
You mean where right now you wait for Openreach to get off their fat arses and pick a random date in the future to provision it?
>What's to stop them from blocking websites at will, without any oversight from parliament or the courts?
The same as what's stopping your current ISP from blocking websites at will, without any oversight from Parliament or the courts.
>We got cheaper calls, better service and new technology.
There's nothing to suggest we wouldn't have got those anyway. Especially the new technology, which is overwhelmingly delivered by the public sector or by public funding.
>The government could choose to fund the roll-out of fibre-to-the-home on a competitive basis
We already tried this once with FTTC. How did that work out? Openreach hustled all the contracts and proceeded to take the piss.
|>>|| No. 87320
Very good, very good.
Now do the one about why the trains are better, cheaper and more efficient since privatisation!
|>>|| No. 87321
>Exactly my point made
My closest friends voted Leave and tend to have Tory leanings, usually along the lines of 'personal responsibility' and that sort of thing but nothing too extreme, because I find them to be the most reasonable and agreeable people to get along with. I'm generally quite left leaning but I find a lot of people with similar views to my own to be completely insufferable.
I know people go on about how working class people shouldn't vote Tory, but I can see quite easily how some will become hardened into that mindset if you've ever spent a decent amount of time around a council estate and encountered the not inconsiderable number of scratters who reside there.
|>>|| No. 87322
This is where the idea of left unity comes into play.
The left is famously it's own worst enemy- Part of that is inherent, because as a leftist, you already know the other side are just horrible rich bastards. You don't have expectations of them. But when it comes to Labour, or just your average internet lefty posting condescending memes, you feel disappointment and frustration that they're not living up to the ideals you feel they should be.
Elections are most definitely not the time to let that rule your feelings. We have to suck it up and show solidarity, even with the annoying student lads, even with the mentalist identity police lot; because our common enemy doesn't share this problem. The right has no need for an ideology beyond vaguely defined concepts of individualism and aspiration, and we live in a country where that position is assumed to be the default.
If we managed to bring a lot of those alienated working class Tory voters back into the fold, suddenly the British left as a whole wouldn't have this image problem of being for smug student bumders and immigrants. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
|>>|| No. 87323
>If we managed to bring a lot of those alienated working class Tory voters back into the fold, suddenly the British left as a whole wouldn't have this image problem of being for smug student bumders and immigrants. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
This is a bit of an oversimplification, but in my eyes most people in this country are either socially conservative and fiscally liberal or socially conservative and fiscally conservative. The Tories have been able to hoover up a lot of 'traditional' working class voters, particularly with UKIP acting as a gateway drug, because a lot of socially conservative Labour voters have felt alienated by the party's gradual creep to being both socially and fiscally liberal.
|>>|| No. 87324
Oh I agree, you probably summarised better than I could.
I do understand why some people feel hard done by when they break their balls at work all day and the same types of people who have never worked go in and out of the doctors etc with nothing better to do.
I have a few single, never worked, probably never will work mums on my Facebook as a relic from school.
They are consistently posting about going to the doctors etcbecause their wee one has a cough etc. They are also always going on days out and one of them seems to have a house for no other virtue than having had a kid.
There's bigger issues at play but I can see why your average man and woman struggling to make ends meet might get a bit annoyed at that, particularly when you can't see your GP because somebody with nothing better to do is back at the doctors.
There's a huge thing >>87322 touches on too, my working class family, friends,people back home, who were life long Labour voters will no longer vote Labour because they just feel too left behind with the whole identity thing.
They see Labour as just not the party for them now and i don't think that will ever change. They've made their own bed.
|>>|| No. 87325
I wouldn't call renationalising rail, water, electricity and broadband "liberal".
Generally though I think what we've seen over the last 20-30 years is a complete consensus between parties that the neo-liberal economic model is the only way of doing things. This has left the debate in politics to end up focusing entirely on social issues, with economics not just ignored, but treated as immovable universal constants, as unchanging and fundamental as the rocks underneath us.
You see that a lot in Yank politics. The choice there is essentially between pro-gun conservatives, or pro-abortion conservatives. People get incredibly passionate and angry about things like LGBT rights, when they make practically no difference to the actual running of the country or its prosperity. I think through the Internet a lot of that mindset has drifted over through osmosis, with people not understanding that we liven under a radically different economic consensus as recently as the 1970s.
As a result it's very easy for someone like Daveycambles to come along and tell everyone he's modernising the Conservative party by letting gay people get married, and people swallow it. They can wholesale steal the bits that will get them votes and the illusion of progressivism from the left, and still drive forward with their plans to cull homeless people and sell the entire country to China.
|>>|| No. 87326
I think the crab pot mentality also comes into play somewhat. A lot of people vote Labour simply because that's what their parents and others from their background do, without questioning it. If people break this mould by thinking for themselves then they're shamed for doing so, getting ideas above their station and thinking they're better than everyone else. They need bringing back down to the crab pot.
I get it enough for voting Lib Dem, I've lost count of the amount of times I'm told I should vote Labour to keep the Tories out, so fuck knows what it's like for an actual Tory voter.
|>>|| No. 87327
You know it's dire when you disagree with a lot of what the tories do but weirdly feel sorry for them.
It's even more dire when I know saying I feel sorry for them I'll attract the predictable 'but you don't feel sorry for the people they kill through cutting JSA? You're just a shy Tory' is incoming.
|>>|| No. 87328
>And what on earth makes you think a national fibre network would even remotely compare to this? The closest comparable project is in Australia, where under the NBN project FTTC was installed to vast swathes of the country, and while it's been less than ideal, nothing even remotely close to what you're suggesting has happened there.
Not him but the Australian internet is regarded as one of the worst on the planet both in terms of speed and cost. I think
it's exactly the kind of example of how things will go - complete with the inevitable pornographic absurdity.
BT is a shithouse but that's not going to be fixed by the inevitable botched government takeover.
>The same as what's stopping your current ISP from blocking websites at will, without any oversight from Parliament or the courts.
The market for alternatives and capacity to challenge the decision in the courts as a breach of contract.
>Part of that is inherent, because as a leftist, you already know the other side are just horrible rich bastards.
I like how this was made in a post trying to agree with Labour being shrill.
|>>|| No. 87329
It's a bit different when the crab is voting to have boiling water poured into the bucket, though.
|>>|| No. 87330
What actually is so bad about voting Tory if you're working class or lower middle class?
|>>|| No. 87331
>The market for alternatives and capacity to challenge the decision in the courts as a breach of contract.
Comedy gold, m7.
|>>|| No. 87332
In the past four years they've failed to build any of the 200k starter homes they said they would, introduced universal credit which reduced, crippled, or stripped benefits from a great many, changed the rules on benefits (and working tax credits) for people with more than two children, and bereavement support for cohabiting couples to their detriment. They lifted the cap on tuition fees (and of course, before that, raised them significantly during the coalition), spend a quarter of a million quid to propagandise unversal credit (leading the ASA to call their adverts misleading and wholly innacurate), removed nurses bursaries, tried to spend 14 million quid on ferries that don't exist, were reprimanded by the Supreme Court for introducing 'unlawful' fees for employment tribunals, and slashed policing budgets to the tune of about 20,000 officers.
So I can't really think of anything tbh, I'm only voting labour because my grandad was a miner
|>>|| No. 87335
Then all the things he said except for the middle bit of the first sentence.
|>>|| No. 87336
Yeah, but what if one is working and doesn't want one's salary garnished to fund layabouts and ne'er-do-wells.
|>>|| No. 87341
I'll stop you here, because where your whatabouts are eventually going to lead is "yeah but what if you're rich and want more money" which neatly underlines exactly why working and lower middle class people shouldn't vote Conservative.
There's not really any justification for voting for a party that did everything on this list other than 'none of this directly affects me' which is fine, you can vote selfishly, that's the good thing about voting, but not really relevant to the original question as it still won't benefit even someone "who is working and doesn't want one's salary garnished" because you have to make a lot more than a working or lower middle class person makes to avoid such a thing under the tories.
|>>|| No. 87342
You had your statutory right to an hour's lunch break slashed to twenty minutes- You never had retail staff doing nine hour shifts with scarcely long enough to eat their lunch before Callmedave. You had your legal right to a minimum of contracted hours taken away- Zero hours contracts and shady shit like Uber were never a thing before Camebourne. You had the right to legal aid which would have enabled you to take your employer to a tribunal if you were unfairly dismissed or discriminated against taken away- This is why modern day workhouses like Capita can get away with sacking people indiscriminately for having a day off sick. They pretended they were giving you a tax cut by increasing the personal allowance, but raised VAT and tax on fags and booze with the other hand, taxes which disproportionately affect the working class. And when global competition becomes too fierce, they will let your industry collapse or be bought out by the Chinese, so don't be too confident you won't need those bennies one day.
Even if you've never claimed a benefit or used the NHS in your life, the Tories are still demonstrably harmful to working people's day to day conditions, and long term security.
>but what if I'm a special boy destined to be rich and not just a bucket crustacean like the rest of the smelly paupers I grew up with
Then by all means vote for the Tories
>hurr you're being smug nobody will ever support you for being smug
Tough tits mate.
|>>|| No. 87343
There isn't a Green candidate standing in my area. Only two of the six candidates actually live in the area.
|>>|| No. 87344
A few greens are standing down so Labour have a better chance, not sure if that's true for your area, but it's worth noting.
|>>|| No. 87345
Not very many, as they did that for Labour before in return for promises which were never fulfilled so they're justifiably pissed off with them.
|>>|| No. 87348
And unless they've brought their usage policy into the 21st century they're the perfect choice if you only use the internet for Facebook.
Also, if they decide to u-turn on that policy, you have no legal recourse.
|>>|| No. 87351
I'm just repeating what I was told by a Green party candidate I was speaking to.
|>>|| No. 87358
I saw the advert online this morning, so evidently they haven't been forced to pull it over inaccuracies and we all know that shit sticks.
It's things like this that will win the Tories the election. We're increasingly moving from a collective to an individualistic society and the Tory message of what's best for the individual is received better than the identity politics Labour indulge in, i.e. someone is more concerned about higher take home pay than ensuring all FTSE 100 board rooms have at least one black disabled trans lesbian attack helicopter.
|>>|| No. 87360
>someone is more concerned about higher take home pay than ensuring all FTSE 100 board rooms have at least one black disabled trans lesbian attack helicopter.
This is fair and clearly it's working on you, but if you think about it for longer than three seconds you'll realise that Labour isn't going to have every single taxpayer in the country pay the same amount of extra tax, and indeed people who really need to worry about take home pay will pay less.
Also show me the policy pledge about black lesbians.
|>>|| No. 87361
Your summary at the end there sounds far more Lib Dem than Labour.
Jez has purged all the centrists, Blairites and Jews who were interested in pushing identity politics instead of genuine economic inequalities.
He's obviously not going to win the election but I think in the long term he might have saved Labour, give it a few years for the actual message to sink in and he will be part of what helped save the party's image.
|>>|| No. 87363
>I think in the long term he might have saved Labour, give it a few years for the actual message to sink in and he will be part of what helped save the party's image.
Albeit purely unintentionally.
|>>|| No. 87369
So how long do you lads reckon the next extension will be for?
>Starts with ADSL and 200GB/month download for £25.00
I can't imagine I've ever needed 200GB, my ISP would probably cut me off all the same at that point, and I fully accept I'm probably being a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal but they can fuck right off.
>Also, if they decide to u-turn on that policy, you have no legal recourse.
That would put them into breach of contract.
So he's got rid of Dianne Abbot?
|>>|| No. 87370
>That would put them into breach of contract.
No, it would not.
Stop doing that. It isn't clever and it isn't funny.
|>>|| No. 87371
200G isn't even that much these days. My TV alone uses about 30GB a month just on streaming services. A modern video game is 80 gig or more - Red Dead 2 is something like 150.
|>>|| No. 87372
>Youth campaigners have stepped up efforts to oust Boris Johnson from his constituency
>increasingly hopeful they can make history by ensuring he is the first prime minister to lose their seat at a general election.
>A report by centre-right thinktank Onward found that a constituency is likely to be won by a party other than the Tories if its ratio of younger to older residents rises above 1.1.
>the seat is significantly beyond that tipping point, with younger voters outnumbering older by an estimated 2.1 ratio
>Johnson’s majority was cut from 10,695 in the 2015 general election to 5,034 in the 2017 election and is now the smallest of any prime minister since 1924.
Boris is definitely making himself a place in the history books with all his firsts.
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