Can't we just have a second referendum instead? I've had enough of this.

>>86936
Not going to happen. Labour are the only party promising that and they're going to crash and burn under Jezza.

>>86936
Like you think this will all be settled even after another election and/or referendum? This is us now, we need to own it.

Listen I couldn't give a fuck if Jeremy Corbyn knocks down Big Ben and erects a giant statue of Vladimir fucking Lenin in its place, I'd still vote Labour.

The other choices are the Tories, who are the Tories, or the fucking spineless cretin lying bastard yellow sell out Lib Dems- And I live in the North. So it's really not a choice at all.

>>86939
I have no tribal loyalty to any party, whatsoever; I'm a tactical swing voter, and often end up backing the winner. Can't say I love the Lib Dems, but they're the only principled remainer choice, so will get my vote - they haven't got a cat in hells chance of winning my seat (or government) though.

>>86939

You sound like a right-wing person roleplaying a "Labour voter" in order to make them look bad.

>>86941

That's because you're unwilling to recognise the political alienation of the working classes, and how little they have left to cling to in modern political discourse. You're probably more willing to believe nasty white van driving sun reader builder men represent the working class rather than admitting voting for an anti-semitic communist is still better than their other choices.

Here's a free bonus ad hominem- You read the Independent and you were saddened by the death of Deborah Orr.

>>86941
Do Labour voters really need any help in making themselves look bad?

I'm worried they're going to get absolutely annihilated. Corbyn would really have to pull it out of the bag.

>>86943
On the bright side, Labour will get refreshed - can't see the old man staying on after this.

>>86944
At the cost of the entire fucking country going down the shitter.

>>86945
>the entire fucking country going down the shitter

That ship has sailed though - we're about five years away from fixing that I think; I think that's why what Labour do next after this apocalypse is so important. They're going to have to pick up the pieces.

>>86942
Swing and a miss - I read the Times and will be voting Tory. Not out of any particular love of Johnson, but the LD pledge to reverse IIIWW would divide the country worse than it currently is and Labour are so busy beating the decomposed economic horse of socialism they've failed to formulate a better case than 'AT LEAST WE'RE NOT THE TORIES!'. But fair enough, that's plenty for some people.

This chart is fascinating. Labour exactly where they were at the last election, while the Tories quite far adrift. I don't think Labour will win this election, but the Tories could easily lose it.

I think the most likely outcome is a parliament very similar to what we have now - there are going to be some local swings either way, and it seems like there are a large body of MPs who are not standing this time (or have changed party). If Boris doesn't get a thumping majority, we're going to have this shit for the next few years.

>>86947

Socialism is only a decomposed economic horse because neo-liberalism gave it the treatment Bane gives Batman in Dark Knight Rises.

I can respect someone who stands for some straight, old fashioned economic conservatism. I might not agree, but fair play to them. But the thing I loathe more than anything in this world is the crooked form of crony-capitalism based on fossil fuel and middle eastern instability we're letting the global economy just accept as a default.

But I'm telling you- China.

>>86947
>I [...] will be voting Tory
First against the wall when the revolution comes.

Sorry, Remain-lads. Chuka Umunna is my local candidate so I'm going to have to sit this one out.

Hope we get a golden shower this Christmas all the same.

>>86937
>Labour are the only party promising that

The election is being held on a Thursday which is one of the designated days Labour say they're NOT going to hold a referendum.

>>86952
Labour have adopted a written constitution rejecting antisemitism, but that doesn't stop them.

>>86952
What day of the week do they plan holding a referendum on when it comes?

>>86952
>>86954
Yeah, they should have specifically refused to hold it on a saturday.

>>86952
>Chuka Umunna is my local candidate

Posho detected.

Shame really. If we'd managed to put it off till the same time next year, just enough pensioners might have died to tip the odds.

What do you think Brenda from Bristol thinks of all this?

Can we just borrow Japan's Prime Minister for five years? we might have to put up with chessboard porn for a while, but the train services and road infrastructure will be worth the imaginationwanks in the long term.

>>86947
So then, you support the hostile environment, Universal Credit, Windrush, the rape clause, Grenfell, child poverty, child refugees, bedroom tax, dementia tax, cuts to legal aid, cuts to disability benefits, cuts to mental health support, and now wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on preparations and advertising for a no-deal IIIWW that never happened, all while crowing about fiscal responsibility.

But none of that really matters to you, does it. We all know why you really vote Tory.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyGND49CBYk

>>86961

Just a heads up mate, as a current day labour supporter, it's probably best not to respond in a way that encourages the other person to reply with a list of what the current labour party stands for. You're just serving it to them on a plate, really.

>>86961
Oh get over yourself. You support open dolphin rape against Jewish people and are being investigated by the EHRC.

>>86963
>promotion and ENFORCEMENT of equality

Oh my gosh hee hee I guess I need to get better at maffs or the EHRC will GET me

>>86963

It boggles the mind that people still believe the antisemitism thing that started when Corbyn went against Israel and accusing people of antisemitism is their favourite tactic. You've been told, in advance, that you're going to be lied to about a certain topic yet you still believe what you go on to hear.

>>86965
>that you're going to be lied to about a certain topic yet you still believe what you go on to hear

Physician, heal thyself.

I can't believe there are people who still think that trying to shame people for voting Tory is actually going to work and get Labour into power.

I see this thread's predictably shite.

>>86967
Indeed. Could the cunt doing that place a postal vote then lock himself in a small cupboard until mid-December? Being a BRILLIANT shit doesn't win votes.

>>86967

It's painful to see. It always carries an air of smug superiority you can only get by being young/inexperienced that leads you to the assumption that everything is black and white and you're so morally superior, it's impossible to take another position.

It makes me cringe every time I see it.

>>86969
> smug superiority you can only get by being young/inexperienced that leads you to the assumption that everything is black and white and you're so morally superior
Well, that's completely false, but whatever.

>>86970
There is a tendency amongst 'the left' that they're not just correct, they're morally right. As such, anyone who disagrees with them isn't just wrong, they're also evil.

Sage because this thread is an absolute abortion from start to finish.

>>86971
>There is a tendency amongst 'the left' that they're not just correct, they're morally right
The wonderful unspoken implication of this statement is that "the right" don't think they're morally right.

>>86971

That's because they believe there are Tory policies that are fundamentally immoral.

I'm not really caught up on modern politics bit Maggie taking away our milk was definitely immoral

>>86962
I'm not a Labour supporter, I'm making the point that the Tories are patently worse than the alternatives.

>>86963
I'm not a Labour supporter, but it's telling that you aren't responding by attempting to defend the Tories. Because they are indefensible. (And this is after being told that Labour's only argument is 'but we're not the Tories' - very quick to adopt it yourself!)

>>86972
The view of 'the right' tends to be more to do with perceived logic and maturity; other people are wrong because they're naïve and juvenile, they'll grow up eventually, rather than morals coming into it.

>>86975
"Perceived" is the operative word there as what is logical to do depends entirely on what you're trying to achieve. At this point it's hard to see what logic is it to vote for the Tories other than to achieve the short term self-interest of a 1%. Do we have so many temporarily embarrassed millionaires in this country too?

>>86976
Yes, lad. We get it. You're right and everyone else is wrong.

The only problem with this is that shaming people for voting Tory does not work and loses elections.

>>86977
Good thing that this is .gs, and not an election campaign, then, isn't it? Why not respond to the substantive points being made?

>>86978
Because that takes effort.

>>86977

Why is the onus on me? That's the same backwards logic as "I became a Nazi because I think Paul Joseph Watsons go too far" or "I'm eating extra steak because I take offence to the way vegans behave". If someone is knowingly and deliberately doing the wrong thing, blaming other people for not stopping them is not logic, it's insane.

>>86980
What exactly is the point of shaming people for voting Tory?

It doesn't get them to change their mind. If anything, it's counterintuitive as it makes people turn into "shy Tories" so you underestimate their level of support and overestimate your own level of support. It's pure egotism over pragmatism.

I'd much rather they didn't win the upcoming election but I'm not going to shame people for voting Tory, no matter how much I disagree with it, because it doesn't fucking work.

>>86981
I refer you back to >>86978

>>86981

I agree with the point that you're making, but it says a lot about how fucked our country is and our general levels of selfishness as a society, in my opinion.

I find the anti-Semitism claims to be a particularly convenient get out of jail free card for Tories. I mean fine, we support starving hundreds of thousands of people, but your party allegedly doesn't like Jews! Allegedly not liking Jews is objectively worse than letting thousands of people (plenty of whom may well be Jewish) starve!

It's tosh and I don't believe a word of it honestly. Seems telling to me that all the Jewish Labour MPs going along with the scandal are also demonstrably non-socialist neo-liberals in the model of a certain previous Labour PM- And how convenient: It's literally anti-Semitic to suggest that these individual Jewish MPs might be unscrupulous enough to use their Jewish background for political gain.

I'm not going to shame anyone for voting Tory but it's really very frustrating just how many people don't realise that the Tories literally offer them nothing. The number of working class people who are the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas. It's a difficult problem to solve for Labour, and they have the uphill battle against the media establishment to fight alongside it. The people who do engage in this behaviour of Tory shaming are only trying to rationaly persuade their peers that they are voting against their own best interests.

It doesn't work for Labour to shame people out of voting Tory, but why dies it work so well for Tories to shame people out of voting Labour?

>>86983

>I find the anti-Semitism claims to be a particularly convenient get out of jail free card for Tories.

Politics is not football. Criticising one side does not imply support for the other and vice-versa. Labour demonstrably has an anti-Semitism problem, it's utterly unacceptable and it's going to cost them seats at the next election; they need to fix it or find a leader who will. That doesn't make the Tories any more or less worth voting for, but it would be grotesque to pretend that Labour isn't rammed with blatant anti-Semites purely for party political reasons. There's a case to be made that you should vote for Labour in spite of the anti-Semitism, but Labour shouldn't be facing people with that choice.

>The number of working class people who are the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas. It's a difficult problem to solve for Labour, and they have the uphill battle against the media establishment to fight alongside it.

Polling consistently shows that most IIIWW supporters continue to support IIIWW even if it's certain that they'll be made poorer. That, fundamentally, is why Corbyn is unelectable - he might make the average voter a bit better off, but the average voter would rather be poorer than led by someone they perceive to be weak and unpatriotic. The average voter is well to the left of Corbyn on many issues, but they're well to the right of Johnson on others.

The problem for the poor (as opposed to the working class) is simply that they don't vote and never have done. Pensioners get plum treatment because they reliably turn out on polling day; conversely, shafting someone who has never voted has almost zero political cost.

>>86984
>Politics is not football. Criticising one side does not imply support for the other and vice-versa.
Sadly, this is not how the average voter thinks.

The reason "shaming" people for being Tory doesn't work is because they don't care. You need to point out why people are wrong and not with all that "ooooh, foodbanks and sad school kids" shit because most people don't care. You and I might, but you're a prick and I'm an arsehole and we're still more empathetic than those that don't. You need to point out the detrimental, long term effects that increased numbers of working poor and stressed out kids will have. You can convince people to view things differently, thus increasing the odds they'll vote the same way as you, but not by saying "you're a bastard, you know that?", because no one thinks they're a bastard, even total bastards. If you don't care about doing that then fine, but let it be known that I will push you in front of a bus if I ever meet you, such is the worthlessness of such idiocy.

>>86984

>Labour demonstrably has an anti-Semitism problem

Does it though?

Or does it more honestly have a problem with "fanatical supporters of the state of Israel", in the words of the big fat Jew, Alexi Sayle?

>Polling consistently shows that most IIIWW supporters continue to support IIIWW even if it's certain that they'll be made poorer.

Which is another thing I'm fairly certain Comrade Corbyn knows, deep down in his wooly commie heart, too. But he can't express that view because half his party would mutiny.

Labour is fucked from both within and without, and honestly it's tragic not just for the lower classes. Nobody represents them any more, and it's going to end terribly for everyone. There's just resentment bubbling away everywhere you look.

>>86986
>You need to point out why people are wrong
All the following things that are likely to be detrimental to the working class Tory voters were mentioned
>bedroom tax, dementia tax, cuts to legal aid, cuts to disability benefits, cuts to mental health support, and now wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on preparations and advertising for a no-deal IIIWW that never happened
but brushed away as "shaming" five posts later. It seems as though any criticisms of the Tories are being dismissed as "shaming that won't work".

>>86988
It doesn't work because Tory voters have no shame.

>>86987

>Does it though?

Labour doesn't have an anti-Semitism problem, it's just a slanderous plot by greedy, conniving Israelis to prevent the British people from electing a true socialist leader who will finally solve the problem of globalist bankers.

>>86983
>It doesn't work for Labour to shame people out of voting Tory, but why dies it work so well for Tories to shame people out of voting Labour?

There's two main reasons for this, in my opinion.

• Criticism of Labour tends to come from the left, right and centre. It's said that lefties reserve their strongest bile for those who are also on the left, but to a different extent to themselves. The Tories have their differences, but they largely keep it under a lid for the sake of unity and power; it does boil over, as everything since the EU Referendum has demonstrated, but not very often.

• Media campaigns and individualism. It's easy to accept that most people are poor because they deserve to be so. It's easy to accept that most people on benefits are scroungers. It's easy to accept that they simply need to work harder and the Tories will reward those with aspiration whilst Labour are driven by envy. Things it's easy to digest at a superficial level. The "red lines" why some people won't ever vote Tory can be eroded away or dismissed by the effects of this over time. There's plenty of "red lines" why people won't ever vote Labour, at least with Corbyn in charge, but these tend to be harder to defend or need an explanation that starts with "actually, it's a bit more complicated than that" compared with something overly simplistic and snappy like "don't feed em if you can't breed em". I think I'm meandering so I'll stop.

>>86989
That's not about shame though, that's about things that will make their own lives worse.

>>86991
Very good post - you explain the problem very well.

Labour behave with that student politic / holier than thou attitude - the irony being that mode is very exclusive and doesn’t win people over. I know I’m not one of the cool kids but I also don’t want to be constantly told I’m a bastard.

>>86991
>Obama, once again, is absolutely right.
Careful, lad. When I shared this in one community, the resident idpolist retorted "He just doesn't want to be called out for bombing the Middle East".

The reason the left never get anywhere is because there's always some cunt having a go at their own. No outside force can stop the modern left, they'll implode before they give anyone else a chance.

>>86993
I think for many people austerity is a bit of an abstract concept, particularly if you don't live in a city. So called living within your means, even if it means treating the economy like a bank account.

Austerity is not tangible for me apart from perhaps potholes on the road. I don't use public transport. I don't see homeless people. Crime seems under control where I live. I don't have any problems seeing the dentist or when I've had to use the NHS. I'm not on benefits. I don't use the library. I'm not a public sector worker.

What the Tories in government has directly meant to me is a considerable increase in the personal allowance so my take home pay has gone up. If you live your life unaffected by austerity then I can see how it'd be easy for people to be ignorant of it or to dismiss those who harp on about it as grossly exaggerating for political gain.

>>86994
>Labour behave with that student politic / holier than thou attitude
Can you point to where in the previous manifesto this happens or perhaps some parliament recordings of this happening?

>>86996
>things that are likely to be detrimental to the working class Tory voters

>>86998
Most working class people aren't on benefits, so benefit cuts won't affect them. The message on austerity doesn't work if it doesn't connect with people as it feels alien to them.

You've also got to remember that polling has consistently found that reducing benefits is extremely popular. Never underestimate the level of spite that a poor person has for someone worse off than them

>>86999
Maybe the whole "blaming the firemen for Grenfell" thing will turn a few heads.

>>86988
Yeah, but why? Just saying "thing bad" doesn't usually convince people because other people have said "thing good". If the latter is their starting position then why should they change their mind? You need to have the facts to point out why "thing bad" is actually bad.

People like you are the ball and chain holding back the entire left wing political agenda.

>>87000
Grenfell was massively overblown. I remember the proclamations that it was going to lead to a huge sea change in British politics, which never materialised.

>>87001

Just read the post by the otherlad who actually understood what I was saying.

>>87001
>You need to have the facts to point out why "thing bad" is actually bad.
I think it's obvious to everyone that's been paying attention for the past 3-4 years that nobody cares about facts anymore.

>>87003
I ain't reading shit, you hoe ass bitch.

>>87004
I still think you can convince people with clear and thought out arguments, but most politicians can't or won't do that. Likely because they too think everyone's too much of a dafty for it to be worth the bother.

>>86999

It's probably more appealing for lower income people to want to cut benefits. Where I'm from has quite a few benefits people— that does take the piss when you're giving 40 hours a week to Sainsbury's. If you're a rich city lawyer, you could lose £15,000 a year without really noticing— you probably don't even get how people live on such a wage.

>>87005

It doesn't matter what you think, it hasn't been that way for decades now. Shut up, pay attention, and stop talking like a yank.

>>87005
>I still think you can convince people with clear and thought out arguments
Yes, and that's the problem. The country voted to leave based on clear and thought out arguments that happened to be entirely divorced from anything remotely resembling factual reality.

>>87005

>I still think you can convince people with clear and thought out arguments

You can, sure. But you can much more easily convince people with lies and slander in the Daily Mirror.

>>87007
No, I would say that doesn't really constitute what I would call a "thought out" argument.

>>87008
I don't think it's "much more easy" to do that though, that's just what the majority of newspaper reporting looks like. It's buoyed by the fact that people aren't exposed to proper counter-arguments.

>>87008
The Mirror is just about the only pro-Labour paper out there.

>>87009

If it's not what the majority of newspaper reporting looks like, would you say it's more or less easy to get it published?

>>87009
>No, I would say that doesn't really constitute what I would call a "thought out" argument.
... and you would be wrong.

>>87005
>I still think you can convince people with clear and thought out arguments, but most politicians can't or won't do that. Likely because they too think everyone's too much of a dafty for it to be worth the bother.

As someone in politics, I think that, yes, politicans can do that, but they don't, not because they think people are stupid - it's because it's a huge investment of time and effort simply to change one person's mind. When I first started election campaigning and went knocking on doors I would engage people in conversation, challenge their views, even get invited in for tea and explored their whole personal and political background. But when I took my leave, I realised that, not only have I not altered one iota of their opinions, but I'd wasted the whole afternoon talking to that one person and I still have hundreds more living in the area that I need to speak to. It's just not practical.

It's not glamorous, but it's far easier and simpler to win an election by finding out where the people who support you live, and then reminding them to vote on polling day. And by and large that's the majority of what the major parties do when it comes to elections.

>>87013
I admire your honesty - but doesn't that approach just lead to the tribalism we see now?

Tory voters are such fucking snowflakes aren't they? Any criticism and it's like "don't shame me, don't shame me". I thought the right-wing was supposed to be about the strength of individuals.

>>87015
Nice troll. Take it to The Other Place.

>>87016
You know it's true.

It's threads like these that make me grateful /pol/ is dead most of the time.

>>87017
Right wingers might be prone to pissing and moaning, but you strike me a /pol/fag troll trying to start flame wars because that's all his always online brain can enjoy anymore. Otherwise you're just fucking boring.

>>87018
I wish I was dead most of the time.

Unfortunately with the right wing media behind Bogjob, I think it will be incredibly hard for Jezza to get a majority.

>>87018

Threads like this make me despair, because you two keep shouting at each other over which team you're going to vote for while I just keep waiting for Rome to fucking burn.

Bunch of cunts. Going to put on my "Free Palestine" t-shirt that almost got me detained at Tel-Avil airport and drink Stellas all day because fuck you all.

>>87021
>Threads like this make me despair, because you two keep shouting at each other over which team you're going to vote for while I just keep waiting for Rome to fucking burn.

>>87021
>Going to put on my "Free Palestine" t-shirt that almost got me detained at Tel-Avil airport
Your own fault for putting up with racist airport security.

I don't know who this woman is and it does support the "the Left will eat itself" argument but whatever it's quite funny.
https://twitter.com/matthaig1/status/1189557172922966016

It's over. There's no hope for humanity. It's been nice knowing you both, lads.

>>87025

Survation are the ones who've been most accurate with their polling in recent years.

>>87027
>most favourable to Labour over recent years

Fixed it for you.

Trump "called in" to ARE NIGE's LBC show earlier. Two things jump out at me.

1. Didn't ARE NIGE have a shitfit when Obama got dragged into the referendum?

2. How is it that the leader of a major-ish political party is allowed to have his own radio show?

>>87029
>2. How is it that the leader of a major-ish political party is allowed to have his own radio show?

I agree - I recall it wasn't so long ago (2013?) that Nick Clegg did a couple of radio shows to universal outrage. Somehow saville doing this regularly is seen as okay.

I vote Tory because I hate Paul Joseph Watson shit. Any faint whiff of political correctness and I'm out. Tories also have nicer suits and hair usually. I like the posho cunts. Mog makes me laugh.

>>87031

Second against the wall when the revolution comes.

>>87031
Agree with most of what you say, but I'm sorry, JRM is a cunt.

Given the number of places Boris has been booed out of now, it's hard to understand who's actually voting for him.

>>87031
Poe's law there.

>>87033
You too will find yourself against the wall, but you'll be much further down the queue. Your appointment will be in the post.

>>87035
Tory cuts to the execution squad, he'll die of old age first.

Ha!