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>> No. 92607 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 3:26 pm
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You know it's local election time when councillors you've never heard of start creeping out of the woodwork again.
Expand all images.
>> No. 92608 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 3:30 pm
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WELL IF YOU DONT FUCKING LIKE IT YOU CAN JUST LEAVE!
>> No. 92609 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 3:51 pm
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I have it on good authority that one Ossett councillor is a .gs regular.
>> No. 92610 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 4:00 pm
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>>92609
Tell them to sort out the potholes on the roundabout at the town end of Kingsway.
>> No. 92611 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 4:37 pm
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>>92610
I came back to Beeston over the weekend and the mad mile roundabout was like driving through a trench.
>> No. 92612 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 5:06 pm
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You ought to see the state of the floor in front of my door. It's like I'm living in student accommodation again only instead of free shots they're trying to sell me on dubious questionnaires ranking a number of predefined options that just so happen to match the parties campaign platform.
>> No. 92613 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 5:39 pm
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I've finally bothered reading the material they've written.

THOSE FUCKING LEFTY LABOUR LOONIES WANT TO PULL DOWN GAWTHORPE MAUPOLE TO APPEASE BLM!
>> No. 92614 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 5:45 pm
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>>92613
>We learn by our mistakes
Not to take the man to task for one throwaway phrase, but I don't think anything is less true of the United Kingdom.
>> No. 92615 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 5:47 pm
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>>92614
He can't hear you. He's too busy on his quest FIGHTING NONSENSE.
>> No. 92616 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 7:53 pm
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>>92613
Well, they're talking about it. At least the Tory councils aren't entertaining such nonsense.
>> No. 92634 Anonymous
28th March 2021
Sunday 9:32 pm
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In the latest local election news:-

- Gawthorpe Maypole Committee (chairman: Labour's unsuccessful candidate in 2019) have issued a statement after receiving a "number of calls and messages from concerned residents" following on from The Ossetteer suggesting that the maypole may be taken down, expressing dismay that it has been weaponised for political gain. It has 182 likes on the local Facebook group.

- The Conservative candidate for South Ossett and Horbury has stood down after homophobic and racist posts made on Twitter in 2014 were uncovered.

- Monorail. Monorail. Monorail.

>In a further twist this afternoon at full council, the mayor has had to ask councillors to "stop putting sarcastic comments about monorails" into the meeting's private chat section

https://twitter.com/DavidSpereall/status/1374744205004791808
>> No. 92635 Anonymous
28th March 2021
Sunday 10:03 pm
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>>92634

Tom Burnmore's opinion reflects my own view on this matter.
>> No. 92636 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 12:16 am
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lmao

Friendly reminder that the Liberal Democrats have actually had more power over the past decade than Labour have, at least nationally.
>> No. 92637 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 10:49 am
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>>92636
Thanks, m8, I'm only six months old so I didn't know this. Did you know the Conservatives have had more power than both and today is a Monday?
>> No. 92638 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 11:07 am
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>>92636
Green candidates beat the Lib Dems in 22 out of 32 wards at the last Manc elections.
>> No. 92639 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 11:50 am
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>>92638
The Yorkshire Party beat the Lib Dems in every ward they both contested last time around in Wakey.

Ossett generally votes Tory, which I guess fits in with my girlfriend claiming the place is middle class. I just assumed it was something to do with Dewsbury; if you look at how Kirklees votes then there's generally a blue ring all the way around Dewsbury.
>> No. 92640 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 11:56 am
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>>92639
>The Yorkshire Party
It's interesting how regionalist and non-English nationalist parties tend to be social democratic, while groups of smaller local independents tend to be gammon conservative crackpots.
>> No. 92641 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 8:46 pm
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>>92639
>>92640
Is the Yorkshire Party the same as the Northern Independence Party? If not, are they likely to work together at any point?
>> No. 92642 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 8:46 pm
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>>92639
>>92640
Is the Yorkshire Party the same as the Northern Independence Party? If not, are they likely to work together at any point?
>> No. 92643 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 8:57 pm
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>>92641
They've been going for a little while and are actually the sixth largest party in England, getting more votes in 2019 than UKIP and Change UK combined, which isn't bad going considering they only stand in Yorkshire. They've also got a few councillors.
>> No. 92644 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 9:34 pm
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>>92639
Looks like five angry ghosts.
>> No. 92645 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 9:47 pm
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>>92641
No you're thinking of the Independence Party of the North.
>> No. 92646 Anonymous
29th March 2021
Monday 10:01 pm
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>>92645

SPLITTERS!
>> No. 92742 Anonymous
2nd April 2021
Friday 10:06 pm
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>Labour is to withdraw and destroy an election leaflet that made pledges about “dealing with Traveller incursions” after criticism over its use by a senior MP.

>Charlotte Nichols, the shadow minister for women and equalities, said she wanted to “unreservedly apologise” for the offence and hurt she had caused to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. The MP tweeted pictures on Thursday of herself and activists distributing the leaflet for upcoming local elections in her Warrington North constituency in Cheshire. But after being challenged on social media, she initially said she was not aware of the meaning of “incursion” or its negative connotation and that the party was sourcing new materials.

>She said on Friday morning that she could “understand concerns raised about the language” used in the leaflet, adding that the terminology around “incursions” appeared to be widely used in legal and local government contexts and she was unaware of its “problematic definition”. After the criticism continued, Nichols tweeted a fresh statement hours later in which she unreservedly apologised, adding: “I have spoken to the local Labour party, the leaflet has been withdrawn and the leaflet will be destroyed. I regret that this leaflet has been distributed in the town. The leaflet is not in line with my personal values or those of the Labour party.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/02/labour-destroy-local-election-leaflet-anti-travellers-pledge

No wonder Labour are unelectable. Can't even tell local communities they'll do something about gypsies pitching up in their area without managing to eat themselves alive over the issue.
>> No. 92743 Anonymous
2nd April 2021
Friday 10:21 pm
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>>92742
>Incusion
> n. An aggressive entrance into foreign territory; a raid or invasion.
> n. The act of entering another's territory or domain.
> n. The act of entering or running into.

Wots the ploblem?
>> No. 92744 Anonymous
2nd April 2021
Friday 10:38 pm
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>>92743
Wanting to address illegal traveller encampments is apparently racist.
>> No. 92759 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 7:50 am
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BRING BACK THE SMOG.
>> No. 92762 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:45 am
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>>92759
Any more leaflets like that and I'm liable to start building barricades under a green flag. God, imagine if XR had some real balls and we had some kind of climate Euromaidan, instead of just drifting into oblivion like a bunch of weak-necked cretins.
>> No. 92763 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:47 am
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>>92762
You are also a human being with agency.
>> No. 92764 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:55 am
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>>92763
Actually I'm a fucking retard who lives in the armpit of nowhere. I see your point though, I'll take it on board.
>> No. 92765 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:58 am
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>>92764
If you want a flag though, I wouldn't bother with the Green one. Greenpeace's is shite too, you want a Sea Shepherd or a Hunt Sab Association flag. They look much cooler.
>> No. 92766 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 3:12 pm
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>>92762
Why are the Greens so shit in this country compared with, say, mainland Europe? Is it because elsewhere they're more pragmatic and realistic rather than focusing on airy-fairy wooly nonsense?
>> No. 92767 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 3:15 pm
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>>92765
I disagree. You can just get any old bit of green fabric and immediately have The Flag, for example I've got a t-shirt in my cupboard that's perfect so I could be flying the green flag in minutes if I wanted. You don't want to be faffing about with arts and crafts while the revolution's going on.
>> No. 92768 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 3:36 pm
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>>92765

No word of a lie I have been tempted to punch people in the face purely for wearing a sea shepherd t-shirt. You might not understand why but people who wear a swastikas also feel like other people getting aggressive with them is unreasonable too. The same obviously goes for Che but the fact that his face is used like a brand devoid of meaning is the greatest insult to him I could imagine.
>> No. 92769 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 3:44 pm
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>>92768

If Che was still around and was selling those shirts himself for profit then he would probably disagree. It's not clear if your motivation is out of hate or respect for them.
>> No. 92770 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 4:55 pm
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>>92759
If you have to zoom in right at the bottom to see which party printed that, it's a shit leaflet. Also, why on Earth are they targeting the Green Party? In what constituency does the election boil down to Conservatives vs Greens?
>> No. 92771 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 5:04 pm
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>>92770
The postcode gives you the answer you need.
>> No. 92773 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 5:29 pm
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>>92771
Hey, your MP is that frowny-faced woman from the House of Commons! She always looks so incredibly angry.
>> No. 92774 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 5:46 pm
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>>92759
I don't get who they're targeting with this and why they've chosen to focus on those particular points. I mean, the Greens aren't exactly doing well outside of a very specific demographic and those tempted would be more educated so can best be put off by the anti-science stuff.

>>92766
Proportional representation with the result that the mainland greens are also much more integrated with the establishment.

>>92771
Did they even run?
https://rds.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/mgElectionAreaResults.aspx?ID=589

It's best to use the candidates name rather than postcode to due how wards work.
>> No. 92775 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 5:51 pm
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>>92774
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epping_Forest_District_Council_elections#Results_since_2002

Okay I think I get it now in that the Conservatives only real opposition is a local group they'd rather ignore. That leaves the Green and the Lib Dems who both hold 3 seats.
>> No. 92778 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 6:54 pm
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>>92768
Why do the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society make you so angry? Are you a Japanese whaler or something?
>> No. 92779 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 7:00 pm
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>>92768

You could try to explain why?
>> No. 92783 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:17 pm
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>>92778
>>92779
I'm not him, but I know a girl who's a big fan of them. They're like vegan daft militant wogs, or the more obnoxious PETA members. I've never felt an urge to punch them, but I know the desire to punch other people who are excessively militant. I would happily punch someone in an "I'm an atheist; debate me" T-shirt or one saying "Women are NOT your property", or even Black Lives Matter before they became properly hardcore and impressive and were still just Twitter whiners. It's all about the tone for me.
>> No. 92785 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:28 pm
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>>92778
Sea Shepherd is a good example of a relatively small group of people using violence to enforce their views on others. That's not a value judgment, one side sees it as doing the right thing, another (quite large side) doesn't care, and maybe another is inconvenienced.

It's whataboutism but Mediterranean Marine rescue is, at this point, mostly a civilian endevaour. Should saving a few humans take precedence over attempting to preserve a species? Because the former is an every day kind of thing, the latter is not... but it is final.
>> No. 92786 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:38 pm
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>>92785
>Sea Shepherd is a good example of a relatively small group of people using violence to enforce their views on others.
This line of reasoning is blown out of the water when you expand your definition of personhood to anything sentient, which means whales and dolphins absolutely count. Fairly safe to assume they're not okay with being hunted. This all complicates the question of who's instigating violence.

If you're worried about humans drowning then feel free to address that question to all the people involved in any sort of commercial boating who could be rescuing them instead of making a bit more money, or the people whose laws or wars are putting those humans in that position. Whataboutism may be valid in some instances but not this one.
>> No. 92787 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:43 pm
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>>92778
>>92779
If I saw an American proudly walking around with a "I support the IRA t-shirt" I might punch them in the face too.

They engage literal piracy, and the people who support them either live in a fairy-tale, where they don't appreciate the awful shit they get up to because it is out of sight (they use mines, ram vessels and throw acid on crew), or they don't care, the sea shepards are daft militant wogs, either way I hold people who support them responsible and don't consider their part benign.
>> No. 92788 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:50 pm
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>>92787
>They engage literal piracy, and the people who support them either live in a fairy-tale, where they don't appreciate the awful shit they get up to because it is out of sight (they use mines, ram vessels and throw acid on crew)
Again, they're doing that because the people they're doing it to are, in their morally and scientifically entirely justified point of view, going around indiscriminately murdering people. The outrage at a human being murdered and blasé reaction to the death of a whale is some pure anthropocentrism.
>> No. 92789 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:52 pm
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>>92786
Do you ever consider the consequences of the mite holocaust you cause every time you take a shower? How about what the thresher does to all those adorable field mice when you are eating your cereal. What about all of the carbon gasses from the electricity you are using and your car? What about all that waste plastic you have used over your lifetime?

Seems like the most Nobel thing to do if you want to avoid doing any harm is just kill yourself right now, Just stopping at saving a few dozen whales a year seems like pissing in the ocean really on the scale of the horrors you inflict just by existing.
>> No. 92790 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 10:56 pm
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>>92788
>scientifically justified
mmm.
>> No. 92791 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:00 pm
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>>92789
Noble, not Nobel and no, killing whales is on orders of magnitude larger than that, especially given the scientifically verified (>>92790 yeah, it is extremely well studied - not by Japanese "scientific" ships though) complexity of their communications and social structures on orders that reflect our own, when at similar scales. If you consider consciousness sacred, and not just humanness, then that all makes sense.
>> No. 92792 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:01 pm
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>>92789
That's a bit silly lad, whales for instance are incredibly important to our ecosystem, you can't compare that to taking a shower.
>> No. 92793 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:02 pm
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>>92789
Not him but that's a pretty shite argument. Whales are massively more intelligent than anything you listed and eating their meat isn't nearly as necessary as using plastic or fossil fuels, two things which are almost impossible for most people to avoid.
>> No. 92794 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:37 pm
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>>92786
>expand your definition of personhood to anything sentient

Why do we always do this; act like there's no difference between sentience and personhood? A whale might be very smart but it's still a dumb animal. I feel like people confuse the two because they've forgotten that humans are actually pretty amazing as a species* and we need the distinction for rights that are very much established self-evidently by our mastery of the planet.

>bloo-bloo the Whales travel in small family herds inhaling low nutrition products

So do the people blocking the aisles at the supermarket but I presume they are also capable of much more. Unless you're seriously going to argue that you should be allowed to have sex with a whale then no, it does not hold personhood. It does not hold the potential for personhood. It is as best a lifeform with a higher potentiality for suffering so we should be mindful that we aren't cruel.

Anyway, this whole discussion is also a bit moot as we in the west obviously do care about some things more than people and our ethics are very scalable. If a daft militant wog group burns some boys alive then nobody cares but if you kidnap some girls and suddenly there's outrage, if you have children starving to death in a country then who cares but if you blow up an old statue then the gloves are off. I'm not sure if we're wrong sometimes but even human life isn't really absolute for us.

*when we're not deliberately sinking our own boats to migrate for economic reasons.
>> No. 92795 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:53 pm
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>>92794
Your argument is that killing whales is moral so long as I don't argue that I should have sex with it? What libertarian carpet-baggersense is this?
>> No. 92796 Anonymous
4th April 2021
Sunday 11:59 pm
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>>92794
>it does not hold personhood. It does not hold the potential for personhood
Personhood is culturally relative and has at times in the recent past not included slaves, gypsies or jews. I'm not really sure who you think you're convincing with this line of reasoning.
>I presume they are also capable of much more
They're capable of suffering, as you say, what more do you need? People don't count as people unless they're Elon Musk? Fuck off.
>> No. 92797 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:13 am
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>>92795
Hang on I'll make it simple for you:

1. Stretching personhood to anything sentient is moronic - we use two different words for a reason. We literally have two different words to talk about different things. To say an animal has personhood is to assign it attributes it does not have because it recognises itself in the mirror. This isn't fucking Star Trek.

2. Killing an animal for its meat and what-have-you can be fine under most ethical systems which is what whales are. If you want to say that all killing a whale is wrong for cruelty or because they hold a special significance beyond their individual life then that it another conversation entirely.
>> No. 92798 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:20 am
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>>92797
>we use two different words for a reason
Yeah and that reason is that English is an illogical mishmash of all sorts of things, what a terrible argument.
>Killing an animal for its meat and what-have-you can be fine under most ethical systems
The number of ethical systems there are is unquantifiable, that doesn't make any sense.
>> No. 92799 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:23 am
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but yeah
> If you want to say that all killing a whale is wrong for cruelty or because they hold a special significance beyond their individual life then that it another conversation entirely.
that is what we've all said. Nobody here has said it's about eating whale meat. Who eats whale meat? Fucking hell.
>> No. 92800 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:25 am
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>>92796
>Personhood is culturally relative and has at times in the recent past not included slaves, gypsies or jews. I'm not really sure who you think you're convincing with this line of reasoning.

But comparing the historical treatment of any of these groups with animals is offensive for an objective reason.

>They're capable of suffering, as you say, what more do you need? People don't count as people unless they're Elon Musk? Fuck off.

Capability to experience suffering is a piss-poor metric for anything beyond animal cruelty. You're now arguing that most vertebrates (amongst others) hold personhood.
>> No. 92801 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:27 am
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>>92800
>But comparing the historical treatment of any of these groups with animals is offensive for an objective reason.
What's that then?
>> No. 92802 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:34 am
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>>92798
>Yeah and that reason is that English is an illogical mishmash of all sorts of things, what a terrible argument.

No, they're barely on the same metric dear.

Sentience is the capacity to experience through senses. It is a biological term.
Personhood is the recognition of a thing as having the attributes of a person, in a philosophical context this being attached to sapience.
>> No. 92803 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:39 am
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>>92802

And the important difference between sapience and sentience being... ?
>> No. 92804 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:53 am
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Fuck it yes, human beings are better and fundamentally different than all other animals, which are stupid and serve only as a source of food and entertainment for me, the only way any of the other creature on this planet will get off this rock is on the back of our technology. Whales are too stupid to not drive themselves up a fucking beach repeatedly and I would gladly eat one.

If the whales don't like it, let them come and debate me. Stop presuming to speak on their behalf, you don't know what's best for them they do.
>> No. 92805 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 1:01 am
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>>92803
Sentience is to know oneself as distinct from the world and perceive the interactions - your cat is sentient, a jellyfish is not.
Sapience is to know things and conduct high-level abstract reasoning - you are sapient, your cat is not (when we're looking).

TNG is especially guilty of confusing the two terms but they're not the same thing.
>> No. 92806 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 1:16 am
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>>92804

This is basically how we felt about black people up until about a century ago.
>> No. 92807 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 1:36 am
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I don't know who's dafter at this point; the one who thinks dust mites and whales are the one and the same or the other lad who thinks killing whales is a slippery slope down towards holocaust. Get to bed the pair of you, before I turn the wifi off.
>> No. 92809 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 9:12 am
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>>92807
Nobody said it was the slippery slope to the holocaust.
>> No. 92810 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 9:20 am
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>>92805
Okay. But whales and dolphins exhibit both.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2016.00087/full
The other lad is just stuck in some sort of post-Christian man-at-centre-of-universe thinking. "They can't be people if they don't look like me".
>> No. 92811 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 9:34 am
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FUCK YOU, WHALE.
>> No. 92812 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 9:45 am
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>>92807

It's not even a slippery slope, you don't even need the numbers to know our genocides against other species vastly and unquestionably outweigh the holocaust. If you think it doesn't count just because an elephant has never written a book, then you're just a fucking arsehole, frankly.
>> No. 92813 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 10:11 am
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>>92807
Mites and whales are the same lad here.

The reasons people pick for not killing whales seem entirely arbitrary to me. If it is about pain or fear than that seems to be more universal than animals who can recognize themselves in the mirror, or learn sign language. Even single cellar organisms seem to exhibit panic (in the form of flight) when an amoeba starts digesting them. So what exactly is should be the cut off? where we shouldn't give a shit so we can function guilt free? Because mankind eating a billion chickens annually but agressively protesting less than a thousand whales seems like a weird standard. What's your pet, what's vermin, what's your food, what you wouldn't do but would tolerate all seems about as arbitrary and as well formed ideas as a religion to me and about as indoctrinated.

I presume sea shepherd supporters to by and large be militant vegans who can't win the culture war in their own society so have taken to the sea, and switching the city for the sea doesn't make me anymore more convinced by their arguments. And other than not hunting whales to extinction which is valid, I don't see a reason why we shouldn't just eat them. If anything I find the argument that we shouldn't eat other animals more of a presumption of superiority of humanity than just eating them, it is treating us as somehow divorced from everything else even our own base drives. And if you are going to feel guilty about the things that end up on the plate I don't see why you shouldn't feel guilty about the 'indirect consequences' of other aspects of society that disrupt and destroy the natural world, if it is just a 'having it on a plate feels like pulling the trigger' than I am sorry that is just a baseless emotion argument because you haven't thought about the full ramifications of just having civilisation has had. I would go as far as to say there isn't a single object in your house that is guilt free. Plastics come from oil which randomly leaks and poisons everything, anything plant based meant destroying the habitat of some animals before placing down a mono-culture and spraying pesticides all over it. Metals mean smelting which meant releasing poison into the sky. All of this is by the 'don't kill Whales' standards much much worse and you are participating in that cycle just by existing now. Quite honestly the only way to live guilt free would be to kill yourself, and I don't see a difference between industrialized destruction of the natural world and hunting whales to see why I should care other than that whales have a better PR team.
>> No. 92814 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 10:21 am
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>>92813
"People only care about whales but not chickens because of all the PR whales have" is a bad take at most times of year,
>> No. 92815 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 10:29 am
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>>92813

The main problem with humans, as a predatory species, is that we're too thick to know when we're stepping over the lines. We do think we're above and outside nature, and that's the problem- We don't realise nature will turn right back around to put us in our place eventually. Even in the middle of an unprecedented pandemic we haven't sussed it out yet.

Eating ten billion chickens a year is fine because we have big chicken factories where we breed the daft little twats with no purpose in life but to become food. It's bleak and we probably should feel guilty about it, but we do have to eat, and chicken is both plentiful and delicious. Eating whales, an already endangered species which we have driven into near extinction purely by the callousness of our other actions, never mind the hunting, that's what I'd call excessive. It's not like we need the meat when we've got ten billion chickens- We're really only doing it because it gets our primitive monkey dicks hard to slap our environment in the face like that, as an act of dominance and adversarial self affirmation.

I wish we lived in an anthropomorphic society where there would be at least be incredibly powerful erotic dynamics between predator and prey species.
>> No. 92816 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 10:37 am
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>>92813
>I presume sea shepherd supporters to by and large be militant vegans who can't win the culture war in their own society so have taken to the sea, and switching the city for the sea doesn't make me anymore more convinced by their arguments.
And "The Masked Singer" is a more important piece of art than The Illiad.
>What's your pet, what's vermin, what's your food, what you wouldn't do but would tolerate all seems about as arbitrary and as well formed ideas as a religion to me and about as indoctrinated.
No more or less arbitrary than how we define personhood, as has already been covered in this thread. How about just eating fruit, vegetables and mycoprotein? They're all essentially fruiting bodies that the plants want to be eaten as part of their life cycle. That's not arbitrary.
>civilisation is terrible
This is just whataboutism. If things are bad, you try to improve them. You don't decide that it's therefore fine to make everything worse.
>> No. 92817 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 10:45 am
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>>92815

Is Beastars good, then?
>> No. 92818 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 11:05 am
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>>92815
This. There's whole cycles of inter-dependency and interactions that leave us vulnerable to all sorts of unintended and often unforeseen consequences.
Whales for instance are important even when they die, as the carcass slowly sinking through the ocean is central to a lot of other species. If we drove whales to extinction we'd likely see a whole load of other food chains collapse.
>> No. 92819 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 11:15 am
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>>92817

I haven't watched it because the art style is too unsexy, so I couldn't possibly say.
>> No. 92820 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 11:53 am
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>>92814

Get your pagan rituals out of the festival Christian's have co opted you sickened me. Easter is the celebration of having new things to murder not the preservation of them.

>>92815

As I said I see the value in not driving them to extinction, but not all whales are endangered, and I think we should eat those.

Also I presume you wanked yourself stupid to zootopia?

>>92816
>No more or less arbitrary than how we define personhood, as has already been covered in this thread

Okay vegan. If you want me to presume you to be bat shit keep talking about how things that aren't human should be people, and make the arbitrary connection between groups of people being treated as a person for the sake of legal convenience and a wild animal like they are the same whilst you are at. I know you think you have some sort of argument here but you actually don't anyone who isn't already in the choir can see a clear distinct difference between a human and a multi ton water cow. Even if you pluck a chicken it isn't a man.

> How about just eating fruit, vegetables and mycoprotein? They're all essentially fruiting bodies that the plants want to be eaten as part of their life cycle. That's not arbitrary.

Firstly let us be clear you have jumped tracks from talking about animals to talking about fruit which should be argument enough of why this point is irrelevant to talking about how we treat whales relative to other animals that might feel.

Secondly there is nothing natural about fruit we have selectively breeding those fruit to not be poisonous to us (not all fruit was 'intended' for animal consumption) and so malformed they don't even produce their own seeds anymore and to produce giant distorted versions of their fruit and we produce it all year round by building factorie over the environment and poisoning anything natural that tries to encroach on them. And that is before we get into modern GM. You are right that isn't arbitrary, that is is the systematic engineering of a new species and the natural world to solely service us.

>This is just whataboutism

My argument was that giving a shit about whales is entirely arbitrary. Whataboutism is the entire point of my argument. This isn't a silver bullet.

>>92818

>whales are important even when they die their bodies feed other animals

Well then do I have good news for you about the methodologies of 19th century whaling...
>> No. 92821 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:02 pm
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>>92820
>but not all whales are endangered, and I think we should eat those.
Why?
Whaling isn't even profitable, it's subsidised by the governments of Whaling countries and they still manage to run up stockpiles of unsold whale meat that winds up in dogfood or forced on schoolkids to get shot of it. Whales aren't like chickens where we can't resist stuffing ourselves to obesity with them, people don't actually enjoy eating whale in commercially viable quantities.
That's the thing hippies always miss: In a purely commercial sense whaling is a gigantic waste of everybody's time and money.

If you just want people to eat everything and anything you'd have a better job trying to get more people to eat pigeons.
>> No. 92822 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:04 pm
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>>92820
>Okay vegan. If you want me to presume you to be bat shit keep talking about how things that aren't human should be people, and make the arbitrary connection between groups of people being treated as a person for the sake of legal convenience and a wild animal like they are the same whilst you are at.
You're the one saying that the lines are arbitrary. They're no less arbitrary when drawn between humans and other animals, no matter what your Masked Singer fan crowd might think.
>Firstly let us be clear you have jumped tracks from talking about animals to talking about fruit
You didn't jump the tracks when you started talking about "single cellar" organisms? Or all that dross about how civilisation is bad?
>Secondly there is nothing natural about fruit we have selectively breeding those fruit to not be poisonous to us
Right. I'm going to take a cue from you earlier on, where you dismissed something on the grounds it's not popular, and dismiss you on the grounds that your syntax is fucking awful and I can't be bothered to grapple with your insane run-on sentences. Your brain is broken.
>> No. 92824 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 12:48 pm
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>>92820

>Also I presume you wanked yourself stupid to zootopia?

Not to the film itself, but the community has produced a wealth of highly tasteful erotica, as I am sure you can imagine.

Just look at this little tart though. To put it in terms you lot would understand, she's my Vorderman.
>> No. 92832 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 3:27 pm
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>>92824
>Vorderman

Eyes are pointing the wrong way.
>> No. 92833 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 3:28 pm
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>>92810
That article doesn't actually say anything as far as I can tell. Yes Whales have families and teach one-another to do things, how novel, but they self-evidently lack sapience. There's no artificial (i.e. whale constructed) governance from whale parliament or artificial constructs like whale taxation to pay for whale schools. It's not like blacks in the American South where society had to gear itself on the contradiction despite it being in plain sight and remove passages from slave bibles.

What you need to do is find a new word between sentient and sapient rather than try to claim Whales as people.

>>92815
You should really drop the tedious misanthropy already - it's very 2019.
>> No. 92834 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 3:31 pm
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>>92833
>There's no artificial (i.e. whale constructed) governance from whale parliament or artificial constructs like whale taxation to pay for whale schools.
Firstly, that's not part of the definition of sapience (either the one you gave or ones I find elsewhere) and secondly, you wouldn't know if they did have those things.
>> No. 92836 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 3:55 pm
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>>92834

Not them but the person you think they are. I would know they don't have a parliament the same way i know there isn't a tea pot in orbit, because they evidently aren't that smart. I know you saw one documentary on how whales care for their young and sing and think they are very special but they really aren't. Chickens have a word for land predator and a different word for air predator. It doesn't make them smart enough to care about them over a different animal which I will either eat or kill because it is an inconvenient.
>> No. 92837 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 4:04 pm
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>>92836

You know there isn't a tea pot in orbit because they evidently aren't that smart? I know you read a sentence that included some of those words once and it made sense, but that one doesn't.
Chickens have instinctive noises they make in certain situations, whales and dolphins have languages, dialects, and use them to transmit information about various things, including tool use. This is social learning and hard evidence that they do have culture and social structures in the same way we do. You're just wrong about this.
>> No. 92841 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:10 pm
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>>92836

You're telling me there isn't a single teapot on the ISS? Bollocks.
>> No. 92842 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:17 pm
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>>92841
The ISS is the INTERNATIONAL Space Station. They don't drink tea. They're not as civilised as us.
>> No. 92843 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:22 pm
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>>92837
>You know there isn't a tea pot in orbit because they evidently aren't that smart? I know you read a sentence that included some of those words once and it made sense, but that one doesn't.

Found the Whale, fuck off back to your parliament.

> Whales and dolphins have languages, dialects, and use them to transmit information about various things, including tool use. This is social learning and hard evidence that they do have culture and social structures in the same way we do.

no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1FY5kL_zXU

Again you are very generous in your use of "what we do" for social structures, dolphins do not have an accredited Hydro dynamical Engineer who is sub contracted to the state water company on by a private organisation so they don’t come under head count but instead expenses do they?
>> No. 92844 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:32 pm
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>>92843
>dolphins do not have an accredited Hydro dynamical Engineer who is sub contracted to the state water company on by a private organisation so they don’t come under head count but instead expenses do they?
Nor did humans for effectively 100% of all time, what's your point?
>> No. 92845 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:44 pm
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>>92842
They have Russians on board, there's bound to be an illegal samovar somewhere on the ISS. For testing vapour mechanics in low gravity or some such.
>> No. 92846 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:47 pm
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>>92844
That dolphins do not have social structures in the same way we do.
>> No. 92847 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:53 pm
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>>92846
So humans weren't people until whenever all that was invented. Great fucking logic there.
>> No. 92848 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 7:58 pm
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>>92842
There's not only tea in space but they also installed an espresso machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISSpresso

In fact the Russians even used tea to find a crack in the shell.
>> No. 92849 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 9:00 pm
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>>92848

Is it weird that I instantly recognised that she was in space from her hair and the way her subcutaneous fat was distributed but translated the rest of the image as a basement flat in Hounslow being renovated?
>> No. 92850 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 9:15 pm
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>>92849

I see what you mean - the space espresso machine looks a bit like a consumer unit at first glance. I don't know what possessed the Russians to paint their half of the station like a 1970s school.
>> No. 92851 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 10:28 pm
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It comes to something when one of the most sensible posters on this website is a bloody furry. You lot need to have words.
>> No. 92852 Anonymous
5th April 2021
Monday 11:50 pm
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>>92850
I prefer Hager, honestly. If cost matters I might go Wylex though the flex on Hager lids is nice for installation. Shame they fucked over independent shops. MK for posh jobs, of course.
>> No. 92853 Anonymous
6th April 2021
Tuesday 12:50 am
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>>92852

You are Big Clive and I claim my £5.
>> No. 92854 Anonymous
6th April 2021
Tuesday 1:08 am
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>>92853
Genuinely hope he is, I adore him with all my heart.
>> No. 92855 Anonymous
6th April 2021
Tuesday 1:59 am
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>>92854

I think he would be our best (quasi) celebrity claim to date. Sorry Charlie, but you lost your edge when you married Connie.
>> No. 92856 Anonymous
6th April 2021
Tuesday 4:50 am
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You mean Tony from Tile It All doesn't post here?
>> No. 92857 Anonymous
6th April 2021
Tuesday 8:17 am
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>>92856
What about Big John from Karelia Cars?
>> No. 93048 Anonymous
15th April 2021
Thursday 5:38 pm
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Toppest rofl

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56724875
>> No. 93055 Anonymous
16th April 2021
Friday 8:42 am
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>>93048

>if this effects you

What is this country coming to.
>> No. 93083 Anonymous
18th April 2021
Sunday 10:28 am
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The Labour flyer has come through, Lynn Masterman with her Ossett Masterplan. Apparently £95.3million has been invested into schools in Ossett over the past five years, which seems extremely high unless they're counting things like salaries in this.
>> No. 93111 Anonymous
22nd April 2021
Thursday 3:19 pm
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IF YOU WANT A PIKEY FOR A NEIGHBOUR, VOTE LABOUR.
>> No. 93112 Anonymous
22nd April 2021
Thursday 3:21 pm
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>>93111
>Conservaive
>> No. 93113 Anonymous
22nd April 2021
Thursday 3:23 pm
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>>93111
>This was in 2011
Desperation ferishists must be going wild.
>> No. 93114 Anonymous
22nd April 2021
Thursday 3:41 pm
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>>93113
What?
>> No. 93115 Anonymous
22nd April 2021
Thursday 9:32 pm
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>>93114
They sound pretty desperate for things to crow about. People needing a wee is a common(ish) sexual fetish.
>> No. 93118 Anonymous
22nd April 2021
Thursday 9:44 pm
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>>93111
>It was some years ago now
Hang on while I get my calculator out, lads. This is going to take a bit of quick maths.
>> No. 93359 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 9:16 am
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Votes cast. Yorkshire Party for West Yorkshire mayor and Labour for Ossett councillor.
>> No. 93360 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 11:01 am
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I can only vote for the Police and Crime Commissioner. However, given I don't think that position should exist in the first place it looks like I'm spoiling my first ballot.
>> No. 93361 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 11:13 am
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>>93360
I thought they were getting rid of those?
>> No. 93362 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 11:42 am
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Voted SDP-Lib Dem for mayor and SDP in London. Quite an ingenious system really, my vote won't matter multiple times.
Voted Tory for local.

Got a free pencil out of it.

>>93360
I'm surprised you don't get more joke PCC candidates. Or one who promises to do nothing and delegate all authority to whatever we had before.
>> No. 93363 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 12:18 pm
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The number of joke candidates in the London mayoral election is staggering. Brian Rose, Laurence Fox, Shaun Bailey, etc.
>> No. 93364 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 12:28 pm
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>>93362
Can we have a rule that you don't post who you voted for if you're a cunt, then I don't have to get angry.

>>93361
Why would the Tories get rid of them? They introduced them. It was, however, in the Tory manifesto to change the electoral system from supplementary vote to FPTP, because, y'know, they are cunts.
>> No. 93365 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 12:30 pm
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>>93363
I'm pretty sure Brian Rose is a cartoon character that crossed into our reality.
>> No. 93366 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 12:32 pm
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>>93364
>Can we have a rule that you don't post who you voted for if you're a cunt, then I don't have to get angry.

You can't return the pencil because of Covid.
>> No. 93367 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 12:35 pm
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>>93365
He looks like he could be Dominic Raab's big brother.
>> No. 93368 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 12:49 pm
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First choice Pink, everything else Green. Fuck it.

>>93363
Two Youtubers. One of them's basically just trying to monetise trolling Laurence Fox, which I can't criticise. https://laurencefox.org/ Though I will criticise his lack of a chin.
>> No. 93369 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 1:03 pm
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>>93367
He also drinks his own piss and has David Icke on his youtube show pretty frequently. I don't think he will be extending 5g coverage to the underground.
>> No. 93370 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 1:17 pm
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>>93365
>> No. 93371 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 1:52 pm
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Good electioneering from Tiger Patel.
>> No. 93372 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 2:46 pm
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>>93365
He is literally Alan B'stard.
>> No. 93373 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 3:06 pm
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>>93372
Surely this is deliberate?
>> No. 93374 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 4:46 pm
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Apparently 'Super Thursday' is a thing.
>> No. 93375 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 5:06 pm
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>>93374
The only thing remotely noteworthy about this round of elections is the Hartlepool by-election. Whilst it could prove to be a serious upset, it's hardly going to flip parliament one way or another. This latest trans-atlantic import seems totally unearned unless I'm missing something.
>> No. 93376 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 6:10 pm
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>>93375
Scottish Parliamentary elections are easily the most important one's today that could end up having us yearn for the easy days of Brexit. You might even get both a unilateral announcement of IndyRef2 and Starmer's resignation this Saturday. Won't that be fun.
>> No. 93377 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 6:52 pm
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>>93365

I made a post a bit ago about how I kept seeing youtube ads for this cunt. They're hilarious, it's all these shots of him walking about trying to look normal, but he just gives off the impression of a robot in a very expensive but very badly fitted suit that prevents him being able to move his arms.

I wonder if he knows that half the ads he paid for were wasted on people who live 200 miles north of London. I'm reasonably sure YouTube knows I'm watching from Ossett, and that the London mayoral campaign is about as relevant to me as a sports bra ad. Then again, it's probably not very good at targeting me because watching youtube at work is the first time in a decade I've had to actually be exposed to the ads.
>> No. 93378 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 7:15 pm
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>>93377
I didn't realise just how American he was. Here's hoping he runs again so we can have a proper /iq/ thread:

>> No. 93379 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 7:41 pm
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>>93378

Do they actually expect brits to respond to an advert edited like that? I was just waiting for him to tell me to ask my doctor about lexapro today.
>> No. 93380 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 7:57 pm
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>>93378
He can't even be arsed to pronounce 'borough' correctly. When he says he was surrounded by 10 police officers immediately after showing footage of two officers conversing with him, it seemed very...well, the editor must know.

He doesn't even talk about a platform, just that he has the answers, he's going to do something about it, it's a crisis, so what mate? "Can we swap places? I always wanted to be a black cabbie", this is actually satire, I think the editor is actually satirising his client.
>> No. 93381 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 8:28 pm
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>>93376
I'm really holding out for the SNP to get a Theresa-May-in-2017 shock. Winning the election, but feeling like they've lost it. The last parliament was a complete and utter waste of time and their vacuous, leader centred election campaign wiped out whatever goodwill they could've bought with their passable manifesto. (Well, if I could bring myself to pretend they would deliver more than 1% of it anyway.)

I feel like the only nationalist in Scotland who's made the jump from the SNP to Labour.
>> No. 93382 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 8:38 pm
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>>93378

I just can't get over the fucking suit. There's something very noticeably out of place about it. It's the kind of suit that screams "I picked this suit because I wanted you to be impressed with my suit", which is invariably not as nice of a suit as the wearer wants you to think; and this is a particularly egregious example.

It's got the same vibe as when Chris Eubank used to ham it up with the monacle and tweed, except you knew Chris Eubank was deliberately overdressing because he was an eccentric working class 'ard cunt dressed as a member of the aristocracy. This guy's just a cunt dressed as a cunt.
>> No. 93383 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 8:59 pm
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>>93381
>I feel like the only nationalist in Scotland who's made the jump from the SNP to Labour.

The way Scottish Labour's leadership have been playing you might well wake up tomorrow as the leader of the party.

>>93382
It's the waistcoat and pocket square for me. I'm convinced his fashion choices are a mixture of what an American thinks British people should wear and his conviction that he's a superhero.
>> No. 93384 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 10:51 pm
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>>93378
>BRIAN ROSE: YOUR NEXT
>MAYOR OF LONDON
It's like a threat with very poor grammar.

And why are all the wacky independent candidates like this? Where are the Black Panthers and communists? Every independent candidate for mayor of Greater Manchester is some anti-lockdown conspiracy theorist who wants to take a brave stand against injecting Chinese robots into your brain to cure a disease that doesn't even exist and is just a side effect of 5G masts anyway. They're all absolutely the wrong kind of mental, and I hate it because I really wanted to vote for a mental this time.
>> No. 93385 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 11:19 pm
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>>93384
>And why are all the wacky independent candidates like this? Where are the Black Panthers and communists?
The Burning Pink candidate was running with the sole policy of getting rid of the role and delegating the decision-making process to citizen's assemblies. She's a bit of a character though so maybe you'd lump her in with the other odd ones. As to "where", they were very clearly quite frustrated that the media ignored or snubbed them for the entire campaign period.
>> No. 93386 Anonymous
6th May 2021
Thursday 11:48 pm
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57013769

Look whose come out of the woodwork. You could almost think she's controlled opposition.

>>93384
I've noticed this problem in online communities as well, I think you don't get these candidates because they simply don't exist. When's the last time you saw a Maoist poster? Or even an Anarcho-Capitalist?

>>93385
>Burning Pink

Who thought this name was a good idea?
>> No. 93387 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:01 am
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>>93386
The ancaps are too busy mooning crypto to bother with this. Plus there's the deposit and signature requirements, which might cause trouble because they'd have to sell their hodlings and they have no friends.
>> No. 93388 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:12 am
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>>93386
I think the Electoral Commission wouldn't let them register 'Beyond Politics', so they spent two minutes looking at their logo and thought oh it's pink and on fire and it has the same initials, let's go with that.
>> No. 93389 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 6:21 am
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Has anything actually happened yet? For some reason there's an inflatable Chris Tarrant in Hartlepool.
>> No. 93390 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 8:55 am
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>>93389
Labour's blown it.
Jill Mortimer (C) 15,529 (51.88%, +22.96%)
Paul Williams (Lab) 8,589 (28.69%, -8.99%)
...
C maj 6,940 (23.19%)
15.97% swing Lab to C
Electorate 70,768; Turnout 29,933 (42.30%, -15.62%)

Soon the joke won't be "Any other leader would be 20 points ahead", it will be "Any other leader would be on at least 20 points".
>> No. 93391 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 9:03 am
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>>93390
The Survation poll that had the Tories on 50% and Labour on 33% was actually overoptimistic for them. Fucking hell, what a time to be alive.
>> No. 93393 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 9:39 am
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I've never looked forward to an edition of The Observer less.
>> No. 93395 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 10:09 am
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I guess the silver lining is that I might not ever have to hear anyone entertain the Northern sodding Independence lot again.
>> No. 93396 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 10:23 am
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Council results aren't going too well either. Thankfully BBC has an expert on to talk about his trombone lessons.
>> No. 93397 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:05 pm
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>>93396
From what I've read, in the North East in particular there's been issues with Labour councillors being extremely complacent and doing very little for the local communities as they assumed wearing a red rosette is all they needed to do so the Tories have been carefully selecting candidates that are known locally for being very active in the community.

I've lived in a Labour stronghold area and the council always had problems with self-serving cronyism.
>> No. 93398 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:39 pm
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>>93390
How can 15,529 people be so stupid?

The area has suffered immensely under a decade of Tory rule. I guess the locals are happy with losing their A&E, police stations and port.
>> No. 93399 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:47 pm
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>>93398
Lad, we're not doing that again.
>> No. 93400 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:48 pm
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>>93397
This is somewhere that Labour categorically needs a purge. There's so much shit in the local parties, calling themselves left, centre, right, whatever, that does nothing because they're too daft, or worse actively harms in order to sustain their own personal interests. It's bad locally, but the underlying problem does have an effect nationally too. And when I say "purge" I'm not talking about ignoring their emails, I mean Stalinist stuff, up against the wall, do not collect £200 on your way directly to Hell, you fucking leaching cunt.

Ahem, that's, erm, a thought I had anyway. Hide all the primary school teacher-esque MPs too, they don't need to be killed like the other lot, but stop them talking.
>> No. 93401 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:50 pm
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>>93399
I'm sorry if facts make you uncomfortable.
>> No. 93402 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 12:58 pm
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>>93400
I don't know what it's like elsewhere but where I live you've no chance of standing for Labour unless you're involved with Unite.
>> No. 93403 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:06 pm
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They've started the BBC News segment on Hartlepool in a dog groomers. Then they're talking to old people in a cafe about how Labour let you down. Now they're talking to a man painting car parking spaces about how the political map is being repainted.
>> No. 93404 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:07 pm
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I still maintain that being "the party of trade unions" in a country where nobody gives a shit about trade unions is a very poor tactic.
>> No. 93405 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:08 pm
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>>93403
>Then they're talking to old people in a cafe about how Labour let you down.
Which is kind of funny given they haven't been in power for 11 years.
>> No. 93406 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:12 pm
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>>93405
They don't have to be in power to let you down.
>> No. 93407 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:26 pm
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>>93406
If taking an anti-racist stand is letting you down, may you always be let down.
>> No. 93408 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:29 pm
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>>93397
I think a good indicator of this comes from the result in Hartlepool where third parties managed to lose their deposits. If it was as simple as 'fuck labour' then you'd expect better showings, at least from those reticent to actually vote Tory, the only third candidate to do well was an independent campaigning on just this issue of the local administration being pants:
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/hartlepudlian-mum-businesswoman-plans-stand-2020590
>> No. 93409 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:33 pm
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>>93400
I can guarantee this won't happen and all criticism will be deflected to Starmer. He might not have helped but it's all too easy to sweep local party issues under the rug, especially when at the moment the Corbyn-wing of the party is cynically using this as vindication.
>> No. 93410 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:36 pm
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>>93407
Snappy little singers don't change anything, lad.

Many people in this country are disillusioned with Labour, feeling like the party took them for granted by wanting their vote but not their voice. What exactly has Starmer done to try and win them back and appeal to them? Fuck all. The utterly vacuous taking the knee sends the message to these people that Starmer is a continuation of the happy-clappy the shipping forecast nonsense instead of focusing on the issues that actually matter to them; Kier Starmer cares more about black people in America than the working class in Barnsley.

If the only way you can try to win these back is by saying "the Tories are bad" rather than why you're good then you're absolutely fucked.
>> No. 93411 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:46 pm
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>>93410
>The utterly vacuous taking the knee sends the message to these people that Starmer is a continuation of the happy-clappy the shipping forecast nonsense
How dare a Labour leader believe at least facially in vaguely improving the lot of the underprivileged. How very dare they.
>> No. 93412 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:49 pm
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>>93411
Taking the knee was a thoughtless gimmick to hop on a bandwagon. Most people saw right through it.
>> No. 93413 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:53 pm
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>>93397

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/A-NEW-POLITICAL-LANDSCAPE-Oct-2020.pdf
>> No. 93414 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:56 pm
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Labour could be on for a bit of a comeback in Scotland. SNP's three seats so far won on 58%, 52% and 47%, so majority isn't off the table yet.
>> No. 93415 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:57 pm
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>>93413
>> No. 93416 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 1:57 pm
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>Keir Starmer is "obsessed with media reality" and has no message for voters, Dominic Cummings has claimed after a set of torrid election results for Labour. Boris Johnson's former chief of staff declared that the "centre ground" pursued by Sir Keir was "a pundit fiction" and "does not exist". And he claimed that like nearly all politicians in Westminster Sir Keir "obsesses on media reality not actual reality" and was failing to win support because of it.

>"He’s played the lobby game (badly) for a year without a message to the country, now the pundits will a) savage him, b) tell him he needs to focus on them more," the former Vote Leave chief said in a stream of tweets on Friday. "He’ll listen to the babble! What will he not do? Focus on public priorities [over] media priorities. We have a Downing Street and opposition who see their job as media entertainment service and neither knows how to be this better than Tony Blair or Mandelson. Neither will try to be… a government."

>Mr Cummings claimed that it was "measure of how bad Keir Starmer is" that "until I googled yesterday I didn’t know who Shadow chancellor is and when I looked at photo I had zero recognition". Referring to Anneliese Dodds, Mr Cummings said "she never touched my consciousness in a year". He said a sign of Sir Keir trying to improve would be a "sustained effort on violent crime" that went on "month after month after month". He also suggested bringing in "serious people from outside SW1 to help" and producing policies to help improve policies. "The optimal political strategy for Conservative and Labour is almost identical and would be described by pundits ... as ‘incoherent/mad’ because it does not fit SW1 ideas of left, right centre, but would be wildly popular.

>Neither will do it because both are oriented to media reality [ahead of] actual reality. If Labour had a leader 80% as good at comms as Blair and focused on actual reality, they'd win next general election easy. They don't/won't.” The former advisor said it was “impossible now to be confident what will happen” at the next election and that “both parties could easily be hated or held in contempt at same time”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-dominic-cummings-media-reality-centre-ground-b1843703.html
I doubt he's going to be a Labour advisor anytime soon but I do wonder how a focus on crime would work. Shaun Bailey has certainly tried the crime angle in London only to look a complete mug.
>> No. 93417 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 2:03 pm
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>>93400
I really do regret that Corbyn didn't bring in reselection and all that. Even if he rigged the process to pick a bunch of lefties, Tony Blair seemed like he was on the centre-left of the party when he was first selected as a candidate - that doesn't mean anything - but it would've given Labour a chance to roll the dice again and see if they get a better crop of MPs the second time around.
(Of course Labour could also have lost a lot of people with good local knowledge and reputations and wound up losing even more seats, but given the cul-de-sac they're down at the moment the gamble seems worth it.)
>> No. 93418 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 2:04 pm
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>>93416
Keith might be presiding over a shitshow, but it would be great if we could all stop pretending that Dominic Cummings is an expert on anything.
>> No. 93419 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 2:07 pm
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>>93418
In fairness he's more of an expert than 90% of other pundits, having actually directed a winning campaign. Even if he is also a weird little phrenology studying slate star codex reader with a funny shaped head who'd undoubtedly start trying to show you racial IQ charts the minute you gave him a pint.
>> No. 93420 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 2:11 pm
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>>93419
In retrospect, his success on Brexit seems more like a clock stopped at just the right time.
>> No. 93423 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 2:32 pm
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>>93416
Shaun Bailey's the candidate of the ruling party so it probably doesn't ring true when he says it. Also I think trying to pin every mugging on Khan like he was some kind of Spiderman villain is a mistake because people remember there was definitely a bit of crime during the several millenia preceding Khan's election, so you start to sound like you're harping on.

As for what Cumming's said I think he made some salient points. There's certainly a charisma vacuum at the top of the party and the lack of messaging was not 4d chess as certain people wished it to be, but, well actually I'm not sure what it was? Laziness seems impossible, complacency seems unthinkable and over-confidence is just not it, so it begs the question what were they doing? That's what's driving me mental regarding Labour right now; the massive amorphous nothing that comprises their politics. "Tory sleaze" was fine, but what about you Labour?

I'd also like to say that I largely agree with >>93420 before anyone thinks I'm a Mad Dom fanboy. It reminds me of that Nate Silver chap in America.
>> No. 93426 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 2:51 pm
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>>93423

>Laziness seems impossible, complacency seems unthinkable and over-confidence is just not it, so it begs the question what were they doing?

Institutional inflexibility. Labour are still to a great extent financially dependent on the trade unions, which limits the range of acceptable policy positions. Any big move by the leadership towards a populist platform will inevitably cause a hugely damaging round of bitter in-fighting that can't just be ignored. The Tories are mostly backed by elite donors who don't give a toss as long as their taxes don't go up, which means they can turn on a sixpence when needed.
>> No. 93429 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 3:47 pm
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>>93423
If Starmer got a message from god tomorrow telling him that his mission was to build a modern version of the postwar consensus the first thing he would do is consult with a gaggle of advisors who'd tell him it's out because rail re-nationalisation would put him left of the middle ground. They are a group of instinctively cautious people who feel like they're too intelligent to try and have a vision. They love policy detail, detail lets them put their big brains to work being very smart, and they love trying to game the centre ground, again because it makes them feel smart, but they don't dare to have a vision - a sort of sketch of how the country should look, the "how it looks when you order it online" photograph of what Labour will try to deliver.
Much like on actual policy achievements, you can chart the decline of Labour's aspirations in their visions for government: A peace that was worth fighting for and the abolition of want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness! The white heat of the technological revolution will deliver a new scientifically planned Britain! We can get out of the economic crisis if we all work together! new Labour new Britain - a young country!
I joke about that last one, but it's perfectly fine as a vision - "Britain is a fine country with a proud history, but a few bits of government aren't keeping up with the modern world. Let us in and we'll spruce things up with some constitutional and public sector reforms to make us comfortable with ourselves in the 21st century"- that's a perfectly good vision from Blair, and whatever else I think of him, I think it's a vision he genuinely believed in.
Starmer has nothing like that to drive him. Meanwhile Boris Johnson has stolen a lot of the kind of platform that a fantasy-politics Labour party might've gone with - Britain is tough enough to stand alone in global markets, the government will spend vast sums of money to bring infrastructure, jobs, and prosperity to the north. Johnson is a transparent opportunist - I doubt he really believes in any of that, but he doesn't have to. He put the photo up online and people have bought it - and despite the fact that what we've actually got is the Wish knockoff version of that vision, people still prefer their Conversative government to Labour's blindness.

>>93426
If the unions would bankroll Blair, why wouldn't they bankroll a populist platform?
>> No. 93432 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 6:02 pm
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THE TORIES TAKE OSSETT.
>> No. 93436 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 7:01 pm
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>>93432
I'm sure there's nothing ominous at all about that majority figure.
>> No. 93440 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 10:21 pm
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It's not looking good for Starmer. Corbyn may have failed to capture the broader electorate, but had a very devoted and large minority of the electorate. Starmer on the other hand has very limp support and that support was predicated on him for some reason being considered more electable despite not clearly standing for anything. If he doesn't have that, then he has absolutely nothing going for him. By this point it's too late to even consider a shift to the left; he's made a concerted effort to spite the left.
It doesn't seem like there's much hope for Labour for the next decade or so. I don't think there's much hope for any alternative, either. The Conservative Party is a gang of nihilistic kleptocrats in charge of a country that has lost hope, imagination, and a sense of reality. It's not the party the country deserves, it's the party its supporters deserve, and the rest of us are along for the ride.
>> No. 93442 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 10:56 pm
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One of the Burning Pink lot had their house raided and various belongings confiscated today after spraying pink paint over the Guardian building. Unless it turns out that he confessed to some sort of genuine terror plot while in lockup for the paint, this would appear to be police going out of their way to punish him extra-judicially.
>> No. 93443 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 10:58 pm
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>>93440
>The Conservative Party is a gang of nihilistic kleptocrats in charge of a country that has lost hope, imagination, and a sense of reality.

How tedious. At the very least you could scare us by saying the Tories are going to ban gay people and the NHS.
>> No. 93444 Anonymous
7th May 2021
Friday 10:58 pm
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>>93442
According to this report https://twitter.com/bearwitness2019/status/1390774090605203464 two groups of police attempted to do the same thing, metropolitan with a section 18, then later transport police with nothing more than skeleton keys - which presumably would be unlawful.
>> No. 93447 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 12:08 am
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>>93429
I think you might be right that Labour are overthinking things. Maybe they're trying to be something to everyone and winding up being nothing at all instead? It's just one by-election, but seeing the Tory's poll higher than 50% is embarrassing. Since 2019 my point of solace has been that even though it was a complete route in terms of seats won, 33% of the country still voted for Labour, "only" nine points down on the Tory's 42%. You don't win UK elections with that much of the vote, but that's a good, solid base to move on from. Or rather it was, until Starmer's policy of no policies took hold. I don't want another leadership election, but if this carries on he's clearly not capable of being leader. I suppose this is making me sympathise somewhat with the centrist MPs who wanted Corbyn out post-Brexit referendum. However, the differences here are that that wasn't a defeat for Labour per se, and the clear for all to see reason for Corbyn's somewhat half-hearted support for the EU was that he had genuine political instincts one way and his party wanting him to go another. With Starmer I don't even know what his problem is.

>>93443
Did you sleep through the past year of botched lockdowns, half-arsed test and trace and public money being fed directly to MP's pals? I'm not judging you if you did as it has been quite boring, but it's good evidence in favour of otherlad's conclusion.
>> No. 93448 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 12:17 am
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>>93443
He's not wrong though.

>>93447
>botched lockdowns, half-arsed test and trace and public money being fed directly to MP's pals

But the country doesn't care, accountability isn't in style anymore and people aren't paying attention to what the government are doing. Everybody is too caught up in identity politics, propaganda and conspiracy theories, and without any real opposition things will continue to deteriorate.
>> No. 93452 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 12:52 am
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>>93440

I just hope that can be the end of it and both sides can admit they need to work together instead of bickering like little school kids. They've both had their turn and it's clear neither of them were right.

The trouble is it doesn't tell us anything meaningful politically, because the whole thing is entirely based on personality. We have no clear idea if Corbyn's policy was off-putting, we just know people thought he was a fuddy duddy old softy and they don't want that kind of person in charge. And as for Starmer's leadership, we don't even have the foggiest what the policies are or would be, we just know that the man himself is about as appealing as cold sick.

What they needs is someone with a Northern accent, who runs on a vaguely left-ish economic platform with lots of talk about jobs and making them pay properly, and just the right amount of token socially conservative pandering like teaching more British history in schools or something like that. He'd do interviews where he occasionally says something shocking (doesn't matter what about) but stands firmly by it (regardless what it is) just to show he's got backbone ans "speaks his mind". The election slogan would be "No Nonsense Politics."
>> No. 93459 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 2:15 am
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>>93440
There isn't really anything that Labour can do right now, unfortunately, at least not that I can see. Any good left-wing policy that people would actually vote for is now a Conservative policy. The consensus seems to be that for Labour to take power, they need to be a party that loves Brexit and takin are conutry bak, but which also spends massively on coronavirus and the grim parts of the North. A party like that simply couldn't lose, right? Well, the good news is that a party like that isn't losing: they're already in power.

I saw this morning (so Friday morning; why aren't you also posting at 2am, you losers?) that the Green Party had made huge, massive, colossal gains. Obviously after only a couple of hours of vote-counting, this could be just a temporary mirage, but look at this result right here:
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390535393049731072

And look at Green boss Jonathan Bartley's Twitter feed in general right now:
https://twitter.com/jon_bartley
He seems very upbeat. His party has seemingly romped home. Maybe this is just them picking up votes that didn't go to Labour, but also Labour really are just on their way out, in the manner of the Whigs.
>> No. 93462 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 7:09 am
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>>93459

Nail, head etc. The Johnson/Sunak government are dominating the nationalist-populist-Keynesian position that would give Labour half a chance of being electable. Starmer has been criticised for a lack of policies, but nobody seems to know what those policies should be. Unless and until the Tories swing back towards austerity, Labour have nothing to offer.
>> No. 93463 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 8:08 am
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Labour just need to think outside the box, though as mentioned before, they lack the imagination.

Imagine the support they'd win back if the sole policy was slashing fag and alcohol duty in half. Pounds in pockets.
>> No. 93471 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 12:01 pm
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>Labour just need to think outside the box
They can't even think outside the comment box.
>> No. 93484 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 6:17 pm
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I'm just thinking to myself here, what if Labour's screwed?
The idea that always seems to go around thinks of things like this: The public love (say) dogs. In the last election Labour didn't prominently feature dogs, while the Conservatives did. The Conservatives are seen as the party of dog lovers, while people think Labour is really more of a cat party. So Labour needs to show people it's a party of dog lovers. If Labour starts putting out adverts showing Starmer walking his dog, policies showing they want to build more dog parks, etc, then Labour can recover.

But what if the idea Labour is a party for cat lovers and the Conservatives are the party for dog lovers is something deeply locked in - the way you're always going to think of the SNP as the party of Scottish nationalism - and if all Labour's attempts to show their cabinet with their dogs, and all of their PPBs about how wonderful dogs are and so on just have the effect of enhancing the salience of dog related issues during the election campaign - to the Conservatives advantage? What if dogs just always look uncomfortable in photos with Labour MPs?
And what if, with each passing election, Labour does a little worse than the last one, meaning that after 20 years of Labour trying to lose the cat association and gain the dog association, people think they're a party for everyone, but it's all for nothing because now Labour has 90 seats and would need the biggest swing in more than a hundred years to even be a viable minority government.
>> No. 93485 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 6:42 pm
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>>93484
That was, no pun intended, the most belaboured metaphor I've ever heard in my life.
>> No. 93486 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 6:47 pm
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>>93484
You're saying they need a Labourador?
>> No. 93487 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 7:01 pm
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>>93484

We've seen the major parties radically rebrand themselves several times, with varying degrees of success. Labour were unelectable during the Thatcher years, the Tories were unelectable during the Blair years. Neither party is likely to completely collapse, due to the sheer number of ultra-safe seats.

The Cameron/Johnson project has allowed the Tories to connect strongly with a demographic who had been totally overlooked by Labour - older, less-educated, middle-income voters in the Midlands and North. Labour can't win back those voters any time soon, because they still feel a sense of betrayal and mistrust; the question for Labour isn't how to win back those voters, but how to find and connect with some other group that has been overlooked.

The problem for Labour right now is that Johnson has actually done very well out of the pandemic. The massive amounts of cash being pumped into the economy have left Labour with nowhere to go on spending. Rationally or not, most voters now credit Johnson with having "beaten" Covid because of the success of the vaccine programme; 150,000 dead will soon be forgotten when we're out sipping crisp, refreshing pints in the summer sun. Labour just don't have any obvious lines of attack for persuading undecided voters that they'd be a better option.

That's not a permanent state of affairs, because a lot can change between now and the next election. If Sunak tightens the purse strings too soon, the "same old Tories, same old austerity" attack line will become much more viable. It's entirely plausible that post-lockdown euphoria will give way to a long hangover of debt and austerity that'll make change more attractive. Mercifully for Labour, Brexit is now mostly in the rear-view mirror, allowing them to move on from one of their least productive bits of in-fighting.

If nothing else, demographic change is a slow but constant process that can radically alter the political landscape over time.
>> No. 93488 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 7:27 pm
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>>93484
The problem is that what many people see as being perfectly reasonable policies get decried by factions within the party as Tory-lite, which just makes Labour look like clowns.

Not wanting gypsies illegally pitching up in your area is Tory-lite. Being more patriotic is Tory-lite. Wanting to move away from identity politics is Tory-lite. Wanting to feel safer on the streets is Tory-lite. It's fucking brain rot.
>> No. 93491 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 7:44 pm
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>>93488
The problem is that the current PLP are complete one note clowns. You ask for "more patriotism" and you're not going to get Labour's plan to get British export industry going, you're going to get Keir Starmer holding a British flag like it might bite him. You ask for feeling safer on the streets and Starmer will play a badly tuned dogwhistle as the government passes indefinite detention rather than taking the Corbyn route of promising that some of his public spending hikes will go on getting more policemen.

The way they will approach it is fundamentally Tory-lite, trying to be the Tories and failing, they have no internal idea of an desire for local people to control their own areas, an authentic love for this an idea of this country (connected inextricably to a vision of what it should be like - which they don't have), marginally competent suggestions for how we're going to deal with the crime that does exist and get people to stop worrying about the crime that doesn't, and so on. With no internal idea of these things all they can do is ape someone else's ideas - and those people are the Tories.
>> No. 93495 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 10:18 pm
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>>93491

Exactly.

It should say something that they're completely hamstrung by the mere fact the Tories are spending money. It should be obvious to anyone with common sense that a Tory hike in public spending is going to have a radically different impact than a Labour hike in public spending, not least because half of it is just going directly into their mate's pockets while they all drink champagne on expenses and have a good old laugh about it- But Labour are in such a weak position that they can't even criticise that. If they did they'd just be inviting an open goal on all those old shock stories about single mums living in mansions with 19 kids getting £100,000 in benefits a year, and their only response to it would be a limp wristed promise to crack down on single mums living in mansions with 19 kids getting £100,000 in benefits a year.

It's as though the party itself internally and concsiously believes the Tories are the better party than them. Even when they do recognise the things that voters dislike about them, they don't have the backbone to stand up for themselves on the things they should be electable for instead. The only thing they can imagine is copying their superiors.

Consistently and without fail, they take the worst of both worlds approach.
>> No. 93496 Anonymous
8th May 2021
Saturday 11:53 pm
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I think Labour needs to pivot to becoming an organisation that actually helps people, whether in or out of power. It's consistent with their origins and overall image and is something that the Tories will never do.

People don't seem to want to vote for a government, they want to vote for a symbol. If Labour stood up for solidarity and meaningful hard work, they'd become a symbol they could vote for.

Corbyn was able to buoy people up with a vision that that might be possible by electoral means, but in the end, wasn't able to deliver. So what if Labour could deliver first, wouldn't the electoral victory come after?
>> No. 93498 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 12:16 am
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>>93496
>whether in or out of power
So would they become a charity? How would your plan look in real life? I can imagine Labour running food banks, and that would be a great idea indeed, but what other help would they offer? They're not going to top up people's wages. They wouldn't be able to pay for extra teachers to just show up at schools and offer to help out alongside the actual teachers. I guess they could go around and tear flammable cladding off grim tower blocks, but would that really be a vote-winner throughout the population, or just the people who live in those blocks?
>> No. 93504 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 4:07 am
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>>93498

Maybe some kind of organised volunteer network? I assume that a political party is up to the task of organising a volunteer network because if there not they have no business being in government.

Sorry for the typo my phone interacts weirdly with this site and wouldn't let me edit it
>> No. 93505 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 7:02 am
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>>93496

The way this is supposed to work is through local government - your nice Labour councillor sorts out the fly tipping in your alley, they wangle a bit of extra money for the local primary school, they send out a newsletter every couple of months telling you about all the useful things they're doing locally, so you're more inclined to vote for the Labour candidate in the general election.

Unfortunately the Corbyn revolution broke the Labour grassroots, as outlined here >>92984 . The Labour party was still pretty tawdry in this respect before Corbyn because of all the bent old trots doing favours for "comrades", the complacency of Labour councils was one of the big reasons for the collapse of the Red Wall, but it's completely fucked now.
>> No. 93506 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 8:49 am
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>>93505

>Unfortunately the Corbyn revolution broke the Labour grassroots

No it didn't, his party got demonstrably better results in local elections than this shit show.

Stop making it about Corbyn, it's nothing to do with him. He was but one bump in a long and much more serious death spiral.
>> No. 93526 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 1:49 pm
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>>93496
You've got it backwards, Labour began and in theory remains as the political wing of these movements. Maybe Labour could try elbowing its way into food banks more directly but that would only create a cunt-off with the organisations doing it and likely be incredibly unhelpful in delivering benefits.

>>93506
Be honest here, it's Corbyn that broke the red wall and it's his tenure that saw the fundamental splits in North/South come to light. His mealy mouthed response to the Brexit referendum set the stage for Labour being thrown into the mess its in when he could've just campaigned for Leave as everyone presumed he wanted to.
>> No. 93544 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 5:41 pm
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Tracy Brabin looks set to be West Yorkshire mayor. This means there will be a by-election in her current Batley & Spen constituency and this was how they voted in 2019:-

Labour: 22,594 (42.7%)
Conservative: 19,069 (36.0%)
Heavy Woollen District Independents (UKIP): 6,432 (12.2%)
Brexit Party: 1,678 (3.2%)

Looks like even more of the red wall is about to crumble.
>> No. 93545 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 5:45 pm
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>>93544
That damn Corbyn breaking down the wall from beyond the grave!
>> No. 93547 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 6:35 pm
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At least Chipping-Norton switched to Labour I guess?
>> No. 93555 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 11:14 pm
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If you'd like a free smile then know that everyone in the London Mayoral barring Labour, Conservatives and Greens lost their 10k deposit.
>> No. 93556 Anonymous
9th May 2021
Sunday 11:21 pm
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>>93555
I feel bad for Valerie but hope at least they went into it not expecting to win at all. Because obviously they weren't going to.
>> No. 93560 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 12:07 am
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>>93556
If you want to feel bad then the Lib Dems lost their deposit because Rejoin EU and Renew decided to split their vote.

Look at poor Luisa trying to put a smile on it, why didn't you save her?
https://twitter.com/LuisaPorritt/status/1391461512355663876
>> No. 93562 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 12:16 am
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>>93526

>Be honest here, it's Corbyn that broke the red wall and it's his tenure that saw the fundamental splits in North/South come to light

But it's not. His tenure as leader may have attracted a load of useless studenty champagne socialist twats to the party, the papers may have hated him, there's a dozen other things you can point the finger at, but none of them were the man himself. The only proper bungle I think Corbyn himself can be held directly responsible for was caving in to the remainer side of the party and adopting the second referendum policy. The Red Wall had been losing its taste for Labour since the mid 00's. In fact there's a solid argument to be made Corbyn's rise was symptomatic of that decline, not the cause of it.
>> No. 93564 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 12:40 am
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>>93555
>Piers Corbyn

Now there's a name you'll have difficulty making friends with.
>> No. 93565 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 12:53 am
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>>93564
What makes you say that?
>> No. 93566 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 1:11 am
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>>93565
Because it combines the name of a widely-disliked right-wing tabloid editor and a widely-disliked left-wing political leader.

I wasn't aware he was Corbz's brother until I looked up his website. It's a combination of COVID scepticism and general far-left activism. Curious chap.
>> No. 93568 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 7:07 am
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>>93562
>The only proper bungle I think Corbyn himself can be held directly responsible for was caving in to the remainer side of the party and adopting the second referendum policy

Don't forget his response to the Salisbury poisonings. That didn't go down well with anyone apart from Russia.
>> No. 93572 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 11:15 am
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>>93566
>I wasn't aware he was Corbz's brother
There it is.
>> No. 93574 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 11:40 am
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>>93566
> It's a combination of COVID scepticism and general far-left activism. Curious chap.
I also enjoy his views on climate change.
>> No. 93587 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 6:16 pm
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> Corbyn was accused of antisemitism when he distributed a leaflet comparing the UK's vaccination strategy to the Nazi camp Auschwitz. He denied the accusation by saying, "I was married for 22 years to a Jewess and obviously her mother’s forebears fled the Baltic states just before the war because of Hitler or the Nazis in general. I’ve worked with Jewish leading world scientists over the last 30 years. I've also employed Jewish people in my business Weather Action, one of whom was a superb worker".
>> No. 93588 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 6:23 pm
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>>93587
Ah, the venerable "black friend" defence.
>> No. 93589 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 6:57 pm
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>>93587
This one makes me feel a bit bad for him honestly. I don't get the impression he's particular anti-semitic (especially by conspiracy nutter standards), and "My wife of 22 years was literally Jewish" is a reasonably good defense against the charge of being prejudiced, but he's gone and ruined it by calling her a Jewess like we're still in the days where Lloyd George was Prime Minister.
I mean I suppose if you want to insist, the leaflet was insensitive and such insensitivity could be considered to be "anti-semitism", but that gets into a bit of a motte and bailey kind of situation where you're use language that makes people think "Nutter going around saying the Jews are responsible for everything horrible in the world" when you really mean "Not sufficiently considerate of how the industrialised genocide of Jewish people is far too sensitive a matter to compare to any other form of political authoritarianism".
That all said, "One of whom was a superb worker" is a bizarre comment. I'm not aware of any stereotype of Jewish people being worse workers, either in business (isn't it the opposite?) or in weather prediction.
>> No. 93590 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 7:23 pm
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>>93589
>That all said, "One of whom was a superb worker" is a bizarre comment. I'm not aware of any stereotype of Jewish people being worse workers, either in business (isn't it the opposite?) or in weather prediction.

He might get frostbite on his bellend if he doesn't have a turtleneck.
>> No. 93592 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 8:12 pm
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>>93589

https://www.thejc.com/comment/opinion/the-use-of-the-word-jewess-is-a-psychological-tell-1.511773
>> No. 93600 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 10:01 pm
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>>93592
I appreciate this will look like simple ad-hominem instead of a serious question but: isn't David Aaronovitch a wanker?
I really ought to know my British journalists better, but I don't. So I'm stuck with his Wikipedia page which has a lot of the hallmarks of a wanker - NUS, Pro-Iraq War, Anti-Snowden leaks, etc. But he's also apparently pro-chucking milkshake at wankers, so maybe he's mellowed out and is perfectly trustworthy in 2021.

This is important, because my interpretation of the article rather rests on him not being a wanker, it basically being him going "Well I've never heard anyone use that word so I think that's a psychological tell" - well very good, but should I trust what you think?
>> No. 93606 Anonymous
10th May 2021
Monday 10:43 pm
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>>93600
He is a wanker. At least in my opinion. However, whilst I don't take anything Piers Corbyn says seriously, both because he's called "Piers" and all he does is talk shite, "Jewess" is very antiquated term at best. It's not quite as bad as "coloured", but it's a strange term to use, especially for someone to be throwing about. I think Piers Corbyn is a man best ignored anyway, he has very little reach as is and if it weren't for his more famous brother I doubt we'd ever have heard of the man.
>> No. 93701 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 7:59 am
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>Pledges to remove unauthorised Travellers’ camps in Britain featured prominently in Tory Facebook adverts ahead of the local elections during May, prompting accusations that the party has used Gypsies and Travellers as “political footballs”.

>The Guardian identified 47 Facebook adverts bought by local Conservative candidates since January that promised to oppose unauthorised pitches. The adverts were placed by about 20 different Facebook pages and have been seen at least 440,000 times since January, according to transparency data from the social networking site.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/removal-of-traveller-camps-pledged-in-tory-facebook-campaigns

The Tories campaign on tackling unauthorised gypsy camps and have very strong local election results. Meanwhile when Labour try campaigning on it in one area they are beset by infighting and forced to stop due to the howls of racism within the party. It's no wonder they're a complete shambles at the minute.
>> No. 93702 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 8:47 am
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>>93701
It's hardly Labour's fault the electorate are racists.
>> No. 93703 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 9:48 am
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>>93702
The key is not to make them feel like you think they're a racist. Labour making you feel like they think you're a racist for not wanting gypsies illegally pitching up in your area is not a vote winner. Labour yet again squabbling in public is not a vote winner.
>> No. 93704 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 10:32 am
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>>93702

Hardly the electorate's fault travellers invariably bring a wave of crime in their wake.

Framing it as a racism issue is entirely disingenuous.
>> No. 93705 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 10:44 am
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>>93704

I've come to a point of cynicism where I suspect most of the people who are quick to accuse others of racism, sexism, and so on, are people who are knowingly working to try and split the left. For all the talk of moral puritanism in the left, I think most of it can be chalked up to good divide-and-rule tactics employed by more consolidated and powerful political groups.

That's not to say there aren't some who take it seriously, but I honestly think a majority of people who would identify as "left" would probably agree that having large numbers of a marginalised or insulated group roll into town would bring problems with it. The difference is really in the political solution you try to apply to that -- barring them from entering entirely might exacerbate things in the long term, or just push the problem onto another constituency.
>> No. 93706 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 10:52 am
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>>93702
It is, actually. We know what the Tories think about travellers. Labour can either agree with the Tories, which they historically have done, or they can advocate for the benefits of anti-racism and societal inclusion.

If people just assume 'all pikeys are crims' and there isn't anyone to dispel the myth, they will keep on assuming.
>> No. 93707 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 10:59 am
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>>93705
>having large numbers of a marginalised or insulated group roll into town would bring problems with it

Mm yes, do we just accept blacks can't get homes and jobs, or kick them out entirely? Decisions decisions.
>> No. 93708 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 11:37 am
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>>93707

You're preaching to the choir, here. If you look at the history of traveller people it's full of viciously racist policies both formal and informal (and worse), and I accept my post didn't fully acknowledge that.

My poor phrasing might have implied that the problems are inherent in the people, but I was trying to say the opposite. Legislation that stops people from settling or further alienates an already marginalised group will probably make the situation worse. But this point can't be made alongside a straight denial of the reality that there are endemic problems in many groups. It may be tougher to sell, that way, but acknowledging that these problems exist while advocating for those groups is the more honest way to go, and to some extent it neutralises all the fearmongering around those groups.
>> No. 93709 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 12:22 pm
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>>93706
>or they can advocate for the benefits of anti-racism and societal inclusion.

This doesn't solve the problem, it just gaslights the locals that there is no problem. The Tories represent the communities interest in telling illegal traveller sites to get the fuck out, it's not a political football it's listening to the voters. You might have some sort of argument if it was banning gypsies as a people but really it's about a lifestyle choice and one that is alarming to people living in rural areas.

If Labour wants peace and harmony then they can look at a long-term solution, a final one if you will, and by that I probably mean special land set aside for camps. Ones which might solve both the need to protect local interests and where things like education, healthcare or even employment might be better provided - make them near the upmarket Labour-voting 'antiracism' communities as they love diversity. Make this all voluntary of course, I think the conflict with travellers largely stems from the fact that they don't have land they can stay on or any economic prospects which is a relatively recent phenomenon.
>> No. 93710 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 12:29 pm
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>>93706
>If people just assume 'all pikeys are crims' and there isn't anyone to dispel the myth, they will keep on assuming.

Labour and the left aren't really dispelling the myth. The reaction to Labour campaigning in Warrington that they'd deal with illegal traveller camps was to decry it as disgraceful racism. Shouting racist at people you disagree with doesn't work, look how we ended up with Brexit.
>> No. 93711 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 12:47 pm
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>>93706

>If people just assume 'all pikeys are crims' and there isn't anyone to dispel the myth, they will keep on assuming.

That's all well and good, but the only people who believe that tend to be people in well off areas who have never had travellers pull in to the local cricket club and by the weekend everyone's garden furniture is mysteriously missing.

It's not a baseless stereotype, which is half the problem- As well as persuading people gyppos aren't all thieves, they need to somehow also stop gyppos from stealing everything as their main way of life. Until then you can't stop people voting in their own interest by just screaming racist at them.

Honestly in the year of our lord 2021 after so many successive electoral bloodbaths, you would have thought Labour and their supporters would start to learn its lesson on this. But no, there you are. Stuffing cotton wool in your ears and mumbling "raycisum, raycisum, raycisum..."
>> No. 93712 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 2:02 pm
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>>93711
>raycisum
Didn't know you posted here Richard!
>> No. 93713 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 2:08 pm
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>>93709
I think advocating for the benefits of including travellers in society, and advocating for more traveller sites, is one and the same thing, isn't it? I don't think we disagree. Labour just needs to step up to the plate and have the difficult but necessary conversations about combating traveller discrimination.
>> No. 93714 Anonymous
20th May 2021
Thursday 2:12 pm
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>>93713
Is not wanting gypos to pitch up in your local park really discrimination?
>> No. 93715 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 3:46 pm
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>>93713

Being a traveller isn't some benign quality, and it isnt that they have being purposefully outcast or forced into their position, they have chosen to behave like vermin. Not just to outsiders but to each other. They have a crab bucket mentality that prevents them from being anything better. Those that are better are shunned and pushed out of the society and just become normal people. You cannot meet the fuckers halfway because they don't want to achieve whatever level of integration you imagine they deserve, and you will end up defending the indefensible on the argument of cultural differences.
>> No. 93716 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 4:17 pm
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>>93715

Bet American colonials said the same thing about nomadic Indian tribes.
>> No. 93717 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 5:05 pm
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>>93712
I never understood why mispelling it was supposed to be some kind of hilarious own. Same goes for "'elf and safety".
>> No. 93718 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 5:10 pm
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>>93717
I think it's just a way to take the piss out of ebonics.
>> No. 93719 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 5:19 pm
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>>93718
No, that's not it.
>> No. 93720 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 5:24 pm
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>>93719
I honestly cannot remember what I typed before it got filtered there.

I'm...baffled.
>> No. 93721 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 5:29 pm
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>>93717
Me again, realised I never posted, I just had a very similar draft in another tab. Ebonics isn't a filter, just an odd choice of word.
>> No. 93722 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 5:29 pm
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>>93713
No, one is a hard-nosed look at the problem and solution. The other is some wishy-washy bollocks.

Hence:
>Labour just needs to step up to the plate and have the difficult but necessary conversations about combating traveller discrimination.

No, Labour need to step up and say they're going to do something about offering Travellers an out so that they can live in harmony with wider society and not waste away in abject poverty. Many aspects of the Traveller lifestyle is still fundamentally maladaptive and often barbarous and will continue to be so until a socialist solution is adopted that fixes what isn't working.

>>93716
If you want to go in that direction then it's a conflict that predates history between settled and nomadic peoples. One on which there is seemingly no solution and the people of the steppe must be stopped by any means necessary before Temujin kills everyone.

But that would be daft wouldn't it.
>> No. 93724 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 6:22 pm
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>>93723
>Well they were measuring their status by how many skull caps they had taken from the tribes enemies.
The colonists were, certainly.
>> No. 93725 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 6:48 pm
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>>93722
>Many aspects of the Traveller lifestyle is still fundamentally maladaptive and often barbarous and will continue to be so until a socialist solution is adopted that fixes what isn't working.

Do gypsies actually want a solution or is this more of Labour's "we know what's best for you" meddling? How receptive are they to socialism?
>> No. 93726 Anonymous
21st May 2021
Friday 7:28 pm
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>>93723
>Imperialism is the only reason large parts of the world advanced beyond the stone age, never forget that.
At the risk of starting a gigantic cunt off: This is a risky line of reasoning.
It may well be true that a lot of third world countries are more civilised than they would've been in the hypothetical timeline where they were just ignored by the outside world like the Andaman Islanders, but it's unrealistic to assume the only choices facing the Congo were total isolation or the experiment in an economy that used severed human hands for currency. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume there's a case to be made that if more countries, regions, tribes, etc, had been treated in the sort of way we treated Japan (which wasn't entirely fair, but didn't result in them having a viceroy either) then most of the world - including quite possibly the British taxpayer - would be better off today, and if that's the case then instead of praising imperialism for delivering civilisation to far flung parts of the world we should be lamenting that with the benefit of hindsight it cheated us out of the even more civilised world we could've had with a different approach.
(Though less in a "oh how sad" kind of way and more in a "What can we learn from this?" sort of way.)
>> No. 93727 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 9:36 am
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>>93726

It's not you that's threatening a silly argument when you challenge that point, it's the original lad making it. The idea that imperialism advanced backward countries rather than destroyed existing cultures is a stunningly blinkered view of history, and seems to misunderstand the primary motivation of imperialism (which is to benefit the imperialist).


Taking Britain as the example: India was the world's largest economy before British colonisation. Under the Mughal Empire it's estimated that about a quarter of the world's GDP came from India, mainly as a result of their agriculture, textile manufacturing, and some shipbuilding. Going back further, China had sailed the world long before the Europeans and were printing books all the way back to the Han Dynasty.

The idea that other cultures were 'disgusting' in comparison to European or British culture is also deeply misguided. Depending on how far you go back, recall that Britain had child labour, civil war (often religious), violent crackdowns on protest, and a rigid system of class hierarchy, and an industrial economy which ruthlessly exploited or neglected the majority of its population. Europe as a whole was tearing itself apart with increasingly extreme wars throughout the last five hundred years, and it was largely due to the development of that military technology that we had the means to subjugate the rest of the world. Europe was feeding its young men to machine guns en masse until the early 20th century.

I'm aware the original comment was about European settlers in the Americas displacing native Americans, but the picture isn't nearly as simple there, either.
>> No. 93728 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 10:09 am
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>>93727

>India was the world's largest economy before British colonisation.

That's a bit like being the tallest dwarf. The thing that people miss about modern history is that everywhere was desperately poor until the 19th century, because desperate poverty is the default state of humanity.
>> No. 93729 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 12:10 pm
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>>93727

That's an equally simplistic counter-perspective, I would say. In general where you fall down is attributing morality and ethics backwards across time. It's not that history should be viewed as completely sterile and morally inert, but rather just that if you're willing to look back two hundred years or more and say X was good, Y was bad, you're probably not viewing it through an impartial enough lens to be certain you're not misinterpreting the events themselves.

My own take is that Britain was largely an empire of commerce. It is largely thanks to us (or our fault, depending on how you feel about it) that most of the modern world operates in the democratic, liberal, free market fashion that it does today. When people back then (and by extension today) said imperialism exported "civilisation", what that really meant is it prepared those countries for participation in the broader, global capitalist market, which was at that time only in its fledgling stages of development. It's perfectly conceivable that a great many of those countries would still be operating on what was essentially feudalism well into the mid 20th century otherwise; look at the transformation Russia underwent under Communist leadership for an example of how late agrarian serfdom actually persisted.

While it's true that we, and the other European powers did, much as America does today, use force to back up our interests, more often than not what we were actually doing was giving a bit of money and status to whichever local group already had ambitions of power and control, and ruling through them by proxy. If you want to indulge whataboutism, it's perfectly rational to suggest that western imperialism was really a net neutral impact in terms of oppression; we weren't invading and installing a new ruling class, there was already a ruling class in those countries exploiting its own people. From a certain perspective it really doesn't make much difference who the rulers were, those places would not have been some utopia of the commons otherwise.

Moreover, it's just all a bit pointless. It happened in the past, it was nothing to do with us, here, today, we just live downstream of it. The further we go back in history the less blinded we are by identity and modern concepts of nationalism; nobody is in any hurry to argue that the Normans should have stayed in Denmark instead of embarking on the conquest that ultimately still shaped the state of the world a thousand years later. Nobody is going back to the Romans to criticise their treatment of the native Celts as they expanded across Europe, barbaric though it was. Nobody is going back to say early Homo Habilis was an evil imperialist tyrant for spreading out of Africa and taking rightful Neanderthal clay.
>> No. 93730 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 12:17 pm
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>>93725
Dunno but I assume they secretly don't want to live in poverty, be surrounded by drugs, abuse and so on. Or at the very least at the moment they travel around looking for somewhere to live which seems like a massive hassle.

So once they have that place they can avoid the hassle, improve their lives and we can turn the screws faster on them rocking up in some community park.

>>93726
You misunderstand what made Japan different. It was an advanced country and one that was advanced in the way that really mattered i.e. they had the mentalworking know-how to reverse engineer guns, Otherlad isn't talking about that and it's an even worse generalisation than he's making. That is the fundamental lesson that you must draw from colonial adventures anyway: "never, ever fuck with someone who has their shit together". Which is incidentally why Thailand and to a lesser extent Ethiopia had happier times and why Japan was eventually arm-twisted because it decided to close itself off from the world with the Tokugawa shogunate but then made rapid progress until a series of unfortunate events.

Now we can argue all we want about Europeans rocking up and creating a dystopia but think about why Europe was able to do this. Europe itself had a continual line of getting fucked up by whatever monsters emerged from the steppe, Baltic, Near East and so on. And then it had to also fight itself. This kind of existential struggle clearly did deliver effective modern government and new technology even if we don't like to talk about it. These days we've shifted into a weird global economic and scientific form of warfare but the game is still one of competition and greed that drives humanity forward.


>>93727
>Under the Mughal Empire

You might want to read up on the Mughal Empire and particularly its decline. It's almost a cliché at this point to talk about the Mughal Empire as some utopia that only fell thanks to perfidious Anglo tricks that you've no doubt lapped up as an excuse to hate your own society.
>> No. 93731 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 12:24 pm
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>>93729

There's the presupposition here that what we have today is preferable to the past. That it was all, in the end, worthwhile for what it brought us. And again, it's ignoring the
>more civilised world we could've had with a different approach
of >>93726.
Things might be great for you and I right now, but if you take into account the state of the world that free market has created, with the climate crisis, the ecosystem collapse, the microplastics suffocating the entire planet, the increased speed and spread of diseases, this is all potentially (or inevitably) far far worse for everyone in the long run.
>> No. 93732 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 12:46 pm
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>>93731
>Things might be great for you and I right now, but if you take into account the state of the world that free market has created, with the climate crisis, the ecosystem collapse, the microplastics suffocating the entire planet, the increased speed and spread of diseases, this is all potentially (or inevitably) far far worse for everyone in the long run.

Not really, Ted. Your primitivist argument is founded on the assumption that both humanity lived in harmony with nature before the industrial revolution and that Pandora's box can be closed. Neither is true and is the same kind of bullshit that filled up the Greta thread.

The world we live in is pretty great, the only thing you've got to be mad about is not being born in the future where it's even better.
>> No. 93733 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 1:57 pm
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>>93730
>You might want to read up on the Mughal Empire and particularly its decline. It's almost a cliché at this point to talk about the Mughal Empire as some utopia that only fell thanks to perfidious Anglo tricks that you've no doubt lapped up as an excuse to hate your own society.

I didn't say the Mughal Empire was a utopia, nor would I say any human society was or is a utopia -- but it didn't need to be. It can be shown beyond reaasonable doubt that imperialism was not some kind of civilising mission, regardless of the prior condition of those countries. It drives me up the wall to have these discussions because no one can seem to follow along with a simple line of argument without being drawn into a fruitless discussion trying to assign moral scorecards to every society in history.

>While it's true that we, and the other European powers did, much as America does today, use force to back up our interests, more often than not what we were actually doing was giving a bit of money and status to whichever local group already had ambitions of power and control, and ruling through them by proxy.

Employing divide and rule politics and exacerbating internal divisions for the sake of enforcing an overall supremacy, however distant, is perhaps one of the most destructive things you can do to a society without directly obliterating it.

I don't know how to state this clearly enough: I have absolutely no interest in assigning a moral grade and a gold star to certain groups of people throughout history, in any empire, in any native group, in any nation-state. I also have limited interest in indulging counterfactuals in which Britain never colonised India, or Europeans never went to America. In history, the record of events undertaken by those powers is what matters, if you want to judge whether imperialism is right. In the present, the predictable consequences of the actions of people with the power to enact them is what. Sticking to that allows us to answer whether imperialism has any claim to be a civilising mission or not. Given the history of genocide on both counts, we already have that answer.

Going back and saying "well the Mughal Empire was just as bad", or the classic "slavery already existed in Africa" are just convenient dodges for the question: "was imperialism to the benefit of imperialists or those under imperialists?". To go back a step and say "well things were worse before" is the exact kind of "whataboutery" (a stupid, antiquated term that seems to be used almost exclusively to dance around central questions) that you're accusing others of.
>> No. 93734 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:03 pm
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>>93732
>It's almost a cliché at this point to talk about the Mughal Empire as some utopia that only fell thanks to perfidious Anglo tricks that you've no doubt lapped up as an excuse to hate your own society.
>Not really, Ted. Your primitivist argument is founded on the assumption that both humanity lived in harmony with nature before the industrial revolution and that Pandora's box can be closed. Neither is true and is the same kind of bullshit that filled up the Greta thread.
You have a bad habit of just writing off what other people say without actually backing up your reasoning.
>> No. 93735 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:29 pm
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>>93731

>There's the presupposition here that what we have today is preferable to the past.

Because it is. I'm the same raging lefty who has converted you all to class based Marxism over the past couple of years, but even I have to acknowledge the world of today squarely beats the life of a medieval peasant who would know nothing other than toiling in the fields and occasionally being dragged off to fire arrows at the French for the entirety of their miserable existence.

Throughout the 20th century we, as a society, have won many victories over the kind of rigid hierarchy that we were forced to endure previously. Did you know Britain didn't even have full suffrage for men until after the first world war? You only tend to hear about women not being able to vote, but a lot of people don't realise that for hundreds of years, you had to be a landowner to have any say at all. Modern history paints a view that white male westerners have always enjoyed a greater quality of life and reaped the benefits of oppressing others, but that really isn't true. The oppression of the world's lower classes has been universally consistent for most of the last several thousand years, and it's only within living memory that has started to change. The only global constant has been that of the rich exploiting the poor, and viewing it through a lens of what "we" did to "them" is entirely myopic, misleading, and unhelpful.

What we have today is built on top of the events of the past. It is progress. The past happened, and even if you think there was a better way things could have gone, it's also entirely possible that they could have been worse. There's no reason to believe that is western Europe didn't rise to become the predominant industrial power, it wouldn't just have been somebody else instead. It's absolutely arbitrary. There's a million different ways things could have played out, but none of them are the ones that did. The important part is making sure we build on top of it, and keep going forward. It benefits absolutely nobody to sit around castigating ourselves for what our great great grandad's aristocratic masters did.

I mean... The best pre-industrial civilisation I can think of is the Inca, but even if they conquered the world and we all lived in a bronze age eco-communist paradise to this day, we'd still be sacrificing people's children to the rain god or whatever. It's all swings and roundabouts.
>> No. 93736 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:35 pm
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>>93733

>I have absolutely no interest in assigning a moral grade and a gold star to certain groups of people throughout history, in any empire, in any native group, in any nation-state.

Then what the fuck is your point?

>"was imperialism to the benefit of imperialists or those under imperialists?"

Why does this matter, then?

Our answer here is pretty clearly "A bit of both, really, it's not that simple", but that's obviously not what you want to hear.
>> No. 93737 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:36 pm
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>>93735

>even I have to acknowledge the world of today squarely beats the life of a medieval peasant
You're missing the point. I'm not denying that life is great for us right now, I said as much in that post. I'm saying that it's catching up with us and the repercussions may well result in life being significantly worse for a larger majority, for longer. Even for our near-future selves.
>> No. 93738 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:38 pm
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>>93733
>I have absolutely no interest in assigning a moral grade and a gold star to certain groups of people throughout history, in any empire, in any native group, in any nation-state.
>Sticking to that allows us to answer whether imperialism has any claim to be a civilising mission or not. Given the history of genocide on both counts, we already have that answer.

You are doing moral judgements though and it's unavoidable. Why even try this line of thinking, to get to the very core of your argument you are now evaluating imperialism by the moral box it defined itself. Great, you can evaluate imperialism by the allowing the powers to have set their own exam question.

>Going back and saying "well the Mughal Empire was just as bad", or the classic "slavery already existed in Africa" are just convenient dodges for the question: "was imperialism to the benefit of imperialists or those under imperialists?". To go back a step and say "well things were worse before" is the exact kind of "whataboutery" (a stupid, antiquated term that seems to be used almost exclusively to dance around central questions) that you're accusing others of.

Why not both with the inherent clause that what really happened was change. Spanish South America is the classic example because they did have a clear civilising mission (Christianising) that evidently was pulled off and how they gained Papal approval for conquest. Following this the Spaniards weren't so much moustache twirlers as a mixture of rampant corruption, new local interests and oftentimes a genuine concern for the lives of their subjects.

To go back to your point on divide and rule, that's what all societies do and while you're now screeching about whataboutism it's true. The Mughals in particular fell into death spiral because it's society fell apart and was from the start an operation of different societies against one-another.
>> No. 93739 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:46 pm
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>>93735
>The only global constant has been that of the rich exploiting the poor, and viewing it through a lens of what "we" did to "them" is entirely myopic, misleading, and unhelpful.

I completely disagree, because highlighting which groups have suffered under others is necessary to redressing the balance. People without much present political power often have their history ignored. It's extremely convenient for those currently living a comfortable life to treat the past as past and the present as some kind of tabula rasa, because it ignores the atrocities and exploitation that have caused the circumstances which allow for that comfortable life and our current state of inequality.

>Modern history paints a view that white male westerners have always enjoyed a greater quality of life and reaped the benefits of oppressing others, but that really isn't true.

I agree with this. That's a curious artefact of the current ruling classes using identity politics as a mean to keep up economic business as usual; it's preferable to have a few "black faces in high places" than to succumb to the rule of the majority.

>I mean... The best pre-industrial civilisation I can think of is the Inca, but even if they conquered the world and we all lived in a bronze age eco-communist paradise to this day, we'd still be sacrificing people's children to the rain god or whatever. It's all swings and roundabouts.

This is a mindbogglingly counterproductive way of evaluating history and human progress. We have no way of knowing how human civilisation would have turned out if you speculate that culture Y, philosophy X, or power Z had come to rule the world, and I think it's unlikely we'd gain much insight from doing so. It's far better to look at the evidence of what has really happened, identify aspects of each society that worked and which didn't, who prospered and who didn't, and so on.
>> No. 93740 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:48 pm
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>>93737
Would we not be facing a similar ecological catastrophe had we remained bronze-age, albeit one that would take several more centuries depending on population growth to hit us? The evidence seem to point to humans causing irreversible harm to local ecologies as soon as we rock up with the difference being that now our impacts are over a shorter time while our capability to actually do something about it is a recent invention made possible by our economies and knowledge.
>> No. 93741 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 2:54 pm
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>>93740
It is not inconceivable that we can stop doing those things if we put our minds to it instead of creating systems which actively reward making it worse.
>> No. 93742 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 3:00 pm
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>>93738
>Why even try this line of thinking, to get to the very core of your argument you are now evaluating imperialism by the moral box it defined itself. Great, you can evaluate imperialism by the allowing the powers to have set their own exam question.

I simply do not follow how you have come to this conclusion. Imperialism was and is staunchly defended by the powerful, who would be very happy to avoid having these conversations in public. As an aside, they're quite open about it in private, as written records show.

>You are doing moral judgements though and it's unavoidable.

I am making a moral judgement about the *practice of imperialism*, which as I've mentioned we already have a very clear answer to. Imperialism can and should be criticised regardless of who it is practiced by, and regardless of what the existing society was like beforehand. If you really pressed me to prioritise, I would say we have more of an obligation to criticise the imperialism which we directly benefit from.

>To go back to your point on divide and rule, that's what all societies do and while you're now screeching about whataboutism it's true. The Mughals in particular fell into death spiral because it's society fell apart and was from the start an operation of different societies against one-another.

"That's what all societies do"? What sort of bizarre response is this, and what is your point? Genocide is common throughout human history, slavery continues in many areas of the world despite being abolished. We can't blithely accept actions because they've occurred or are common. We also can't use that as a justification for doing it ourselves, or as an excuse to brush aside how it has worked towards a present that's favourable for us.
>> No. 93743 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 3:02 pm
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>>93739
>highlighting which groups have suffered under others is necessary to redressing the balance.
>That's a curious artefact of the current ruling classes using identity politics as a mean to keep up economic business as usual

Why do you talk in circles, 'redressing the balance' is complete bollocks because it doesn't mean everyone gets a fair shake of the sauce bottle - it means we prioritise the opportunities of a few because of their ancestors. The colour of your skin should never determine whether you need more help in life because parentage across society shouldn't be allowed to impact your opportunities - but it does precisely we're distracted by where its visible, has a narrative and everyone middle class and up gets to feel good about doing something easier.

Take for example the hypocrisy of diversity internships where the category isn't about anyone from any disadvantaged background but those that tick the right boxes. If the criteria was just economic class or connection then you'd still catch the same groups as before but also everyone else who is handicapped through no fault of their own - but I imagine that would be less hip and right-on for a company to do that. They might even get flack for doing it.
>> No. 93744 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 3:11 pm
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>>93743

I don't think there's anything contradictory in the two statements you've quoted. I'd be the first to agree with you that redressing historical imbalances takes far more than the corporate arse-covering of diversity policies. At the risk of sounding self-righteous, our poor efforts (or lip service, depending on your level of cynicism) at addressing these problems doesn't mean we should just dismiss the entire notion of justice.
>> No. 93745 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 3:27 pm
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>>93741
>It is not inconceivable that we can stop doing those things if we put our minds to it

Well, we are putting our minds to it right now. Even our Bond villain capitalist Jeff Bezos is talking about the only real solution which is moving industries and even the bulk of humanity off Earth and is actually doing something about it.

>>93742
You're removing moral judgement yet using the precise moral thought processes defined by imperialism of paternalistic duty. Again, I point to Spain where the mission was about as explicit as you get - was even wider society supportive of Christianising the Americas and the acquisition of trade goods, yes, obviously.

If you now want to play games of objective benefit then you're crossing into the territory you're complaining about because we need to evaluate how the subject peoples situation changed and how new boss was different to old boss.

>"That's what all societies do"? What sort of bizarre response is this, and what is your point?

So replacing divide and rule with another divide and rule is a sum-zero change. It's just change. With that out of the way, we can look into actual changes and what they meant.
>> No. 93746 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 3:40 pm
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>>93744
I don't think justice has anything to do with historical imbalances unless you subscribe to a very particular strain of identity politics. If we look at people as individuals with agency then it is fundamentally unjust to advantage or disadvantage one for things that they had no part in.

We both seem to tolerate some injustice for the higher need to guarantee equality of opportunity but that's quite different to advantaging one because they are historically owed something more than anyone else because of their ancestry.
>> No. 93747 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 4:51 pm
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>>93745
>You're removing moral judgement yet using the precise moral thought processes defined by imperialism of paternalistic duty.

There is nothing inherently paternalistic about making this specific moral judgement. If I follow you, you're saying that it takes some sort of imperialist mindset to even criticise imperialism from a moral perspective, which is utter nonsense.

Expanding your example to all of the Americas, the current consensus is that around 56 million people died in the century following European arrival, so many that incidentally it cooled the earth's climate: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379118307261

Even if we go with the more recent estimates that say 90% to 97% of deaths were attributable to diseases like smallpox (ignoring that some settlers wrote about the disease as a divine act and were grateful for how it cleared land for their use), that still leaves between 1.7 and 5 million deaths as a result of violence and/or displacement over that time. I don't need to accept any imperialist logic to condemn this, nor do I need to portray Europeans as moustache twirling villains. It's just a hideous act that deserves condemnation and still carries repercussions in the present that must be recognised. And though it should be unncessary to say this, I will add that it would be equally deserving of condemnation if it were two entirely different populations encountering eachother at different times.

>If you now want to play games of objective benefit then you're crossing into the territory you're complaining about because we need to evaluate how the subject peoples situation changed and how new boss was different to old boss.

At no point have I deviated from my assessment of objective benefit: imperialism works heavily in favour of the imperialists and to the detriment of the majority of the indigenous populations. Where we differ is that in your view a 'boss' can justify a bad action because the previous 'boss' was as bad or worse, which I disagree with.

>So replacing divide and rule with another divide and rule is a sum-zero change. It's just change. With that out of the way, we can look into actual changes and what they meant.

There are groups that practice "divide and rule", or imperialism, to greater or lesser degrees, just as all societies have good and bad practices which they do to different degrees over a given period. There can be positive or negative changes, and suffering can increase or decrease according to who is in power. -- the deaths of several million people is a bad act, for example. Where I think this becomes a pointless discussion is when you start justifying further bad practices based on a moral evaluation of an existing society.

Also, how are we meant to look into "actual changes and what they meant" without reflecting on the practices, systems of power, and how they affected people at the time? By this I take you mean, "accept imperialism as an inevitable practice"?

>>93746
>I don't think justice has anything to do with historical imbalances unless you subscribe to a very particular strain of identity politics.

Then we fundamentally disagree. Someone's economic position is very clearly influenced by historical imbalances between people, like who has had access to and employed the use of force at different times, who has monopolised resources, and so on. I may not have any responsibility for the circumstances of my birth, but this doesn't mean those circumstances are not there, or that they can't be changed to something more equitable for future generations.
>> No. 93748 Anonymous
22nd May 2021
Saturday 7:14 pm
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So let's say we concede your point that imperialism was a terrible thing to have done in objective terms, and that we, the descendants of an imperialist power, should "redress the balance".

What exactly does that look like? What do we do? Where do we start? Is it a compensatory kind of thing, eye for an eye? Or are we merely seeking the mythical "level playing field"? How do we define the people groups that have benefited and been disadvantaged? How do we divide the reparations? Do you include someone who grew up in a deprived Welsh mining village, whose life outcomes were very heavily impacted by the history of imperialism and how their community fitted into the jigsaw, or are you only going to include Indians, native Australian aborigines, that sort of thing? Are the Scots victims of our empire, or participants?

The point you are repeatedly ignoring, quite deliberately I have to assume, is that it was never us and them, it has always been the rich and the poor.

There are plenty of wealthy Indian families today who are so because they were, essentially, collaborators with the British Empire. They are the aristocrats who would have been exploiting the peasants of that country regardless if we were there or not. They are the reason we have people like Priti Patel and Rishi Sunak in charge in the Conservative party today. The Indian caste system was directly compatible and transposable with the British class system.

Ah, I can't be bothered. You're probably the kind of person who thinks the show Ancient Aliens contributes to white supremacy. Your brain has been taken out and replaced with pork mince.
>> No. 93749 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 1:37 am
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Why are there so many shonky properties up for auction in Osset at under £50k? IS the entire area derelict?
>> No. 93750 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 1:48 am
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>>93749
Qué?

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/Ossett/auction.html
>> No. 93751 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 1:59 am
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>>93750
Osset, +10 miles, under 100k, houses. So many hovels up or auction or "modern auction".
>> No. 93753 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 2:18 am
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>>93751
>+10 miles

So not Ossett then. A 10 mile radius includes Bradford, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Featherstone, Dewsbury, Batley, Castleford and Leeds up to about Chapeltown and Harehills.
>> No. 93754 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 3:02 am
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>>93753
Still, bikeable area is apparently auction country.
>> No. 93779 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 5:58 pm
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>>93748
>The point you are repeatedly ignoring, quite deliberately I have to assume, is that it was never us and them, it has always been the rich and the poor.

We're clearly talking at cross purposes if you think I'm ignoring class, wealth, or elite control. In the post you quoted, I even said the following:

>Someone's economic position is very clearly influenced by historical imbalances between people, like who has had access to and employed the use of force at different times, who has monopolised resources, and so on.

That applies both internally within societies and externally in interactions with other societies.

Everyone in this thread has been quick to point out that imperialism has had collaborators among indigenous people, which is true. I would also agree with you that imperialism could be seen as another iteration of the struggles between rich versus poor people, or at the very least, that class dynamics played a role in how people were affected by imperialism, on both sides. I also think imperialism had awful consequences for indigenous people and overwhelmingly favoured the elite of the societies that engaged in it, with some additional benefits for later generations of the imperialist country (in some cases, across class boundaries) as a result of increased national wealth.

I see no contradictions in any of the above points. Indeed, as you point out in the example of India and Britain, these points are often directly related.

>Do you include someone who grew up in a deprived Welsh mining village, whose life outcomes were very heavily impacted by the history of imperialism and how their community fitted into the jigsaw, or are you only going to include Indians, native Australian aborigines, that sort of thing?

This is an interesting question, and it's not nearly as impossible to answer as you seem to imply. People obviously have different ideas about this, and I don't think not having a grand plan for the future invalidates criticism of the past or present, but to my mind "redressing the balance" doesn't necessarily involve just giving out lump sums to anyone who has suffered for any reason (though that can help), but rather changing how things work now so as to not repeat previous mistakes. In the case of your deprived Welsh mining village, we have a pretty strong record that negotiating power for labourers in the form of unions does improve the conditions of working life, and likely prospects for their children.

>Or are we merely seeking the mythical "level playing field"?

I've always found this a really strange attitude. Things don't need to be perfectly fair, I would quite happily settle for fairer. Again, a concrete example is abolition of child labour and free education. This doesn't eliminate every class advantage that exists, far from it, but it's a world away from having generations of kids knowing nothing but factory work.

Another thing to mention, this is also another way imperialism interacts with class dynamics, as there are existing big companies that will drive all their business to countries with lax labour laws, including child labour. Whether you choose to label this kind of thing imperialism or view it through lens of a rich versus poor struggle, I think the diagnosis and treatment of the problem could be pretty similar.

>Ah, I can't be bothered. You're probably the kind of person who thinks the show Ancient Aliens contributes to white supremacy. Your brain has been taken out and replaced with pork mince.

I think you've replaced me with a lazy, cardboard cutout of an intersectionalist because it's easier for you.

... Anyway, what were you both saying about Ossett?
>> No. 93784 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 8:22 pm
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Jo Cox's sister is standing for Labour in the Batley & Spen by-election. If they lose this, especially after bending the rules so she could stand for them, they are proper fucked.
>> No. 93785 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 8:37 pm
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>>93784
I'm tired of the Cox's. What, am I supposed to vote for you just because your sister died 5 years ago? Fuck off.
>> No. 93786 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 11:25 pm
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>>93753
Unless you consder Osset a hipster retreat, why are you so precious? Are you in league with the local council?
>> No. 93788 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 11:55 pm
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>>93779

Yeah no all of that seems fairly reasonable, I'm not sure what I was so angry about the other day. I was probably all hopped up on Twitter and Guardian links and started flailing at phantom neoliberals. That or you might be a different lad than I thought you were; I stopped posting for about six hours in the middle an a bunch of lads carried on in-between.

My main contention is just that it seems counterproductive to go apportioning blame for all of it, we're far better off just focusing on the future and how it can be better than the past. If you start trying to actively compensate for what happened in the past you have to necessarily start indulging in wierd speculative alternate history whataboutery, and it's bound to end in tears when someone disagrees with the way the resources end up divvied out.

Those Sorts will invariably say "Well that isn't what we're doing", but at the end of the day what's the point of spending so long navel gazing about it if that's not what you're doing?We're pretty much all in agreement nowadays that invading places for the sake of it isn't The Done Thing.
>> No. 93789 Anonymous
24th May 2021
Monday 12:20 am
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>>93784>>93785
It's very odd choice. She doesn't seem to be a totally toxic turd, but this hereditary inheritance appears distinctly un-Labour. Or at least it ought to.
>> No. 93793 Anonymous
25th May 2021
Tuesday 5:45 pm
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>The sister of the murdered MP Jo Cox has said Labour needs more “real people” in parliament to reconnect to its former voters, as she vowed to “burst the Westminster bubble” if she wins the Batley and Spen byelection.

>The campaigner and personal trainer, 44, said there was a “big disconnect between the Westminster bubble and communities like this” partly because there were too few MPs with “life experience, not just experience in politics”. I would try and go into politics to burst the Westminster bubble and try create something a little bit different in politics by speaking for real people in the real world,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/25/labour-needs-more-real-people-in-parliament-says-kim-leadbeater-sister-of-murdered-mp-jo-cox

REAL POLITICS FOR REAL PEOPLE.
>> No. 93798 Anonymous
26th May 2021
Wednesday 3:06 pm
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>>93793
She's absolutely right, but she sounds like a Conservative when she says it.
>> No. 93801 Anonymous
26th May 2021
Wednesday 3:52 pm
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>>93798
The problem is that, to Labour, almost everyone sounds like a Tory.
>> No. 93804 Anonymous
26th May 2021
Wednesday 4:34 pm
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>>93793
Not more bloody 'real people' trying to become MPs. And this time it's a 'campaigner and personal trainer' - that just sounds awful and not merely because she's sidestepping Brexit where the areas former UKIP voters could flip it Blue.

How about trying a sociopathic technocrat with no qualms of voicing his distaste for the unwashed masses and establishment alike.
>> No. 93886 Anonymous
6th June 2021
Sunday 12:57 pm
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On the terraced streets around Warwick Road in Batley, an election campaign is in full swing. To an outsider, there might be no signs that polling day is just weeks away — there are no posters in windows, or groups of canvassers going door to door. But here, in the heart of the town’s south Asian community, political messages are spreading like wildfire on voters’ phones.

Batley and Spen, where Labour won in 2019 with a majority of just 3,525, is in the top 15 constituencies where Muslim voters are most influential. The Muslim Council of Britain estimates the number of Muslim voters likely to turn out in the by-election to be about 8,600 — more than twice the Labour majority.

Labour hopes sentiment will help its candidate Kim Leadbeater on July 1. She is the younger sister of Jo Cox, the MP who was murdered by a white supremacist in the constituency in 2016. The by-election was triggered by the resignation of Labour’s Tracy Brabin after her election as West Yorkshire metro mayor.

It is Muslim votes that may ultimately decide whether or not Leadbeater is successful. While, of course, south Asian voters do not vote as a single block, it remains true that in Batley — and across West Yorkshire — these voters have historically secured seats for Labour. Yet now, that support is crumbling as once-loyal south Asian voters turn away from the party, disappointed by Sir Keir Starmer’s failure to speak up over international issues and angered by what they say is years of being taken for granted. In Batley, populist firebrand George Galloway — a vocal supporter of Palestine and vociferous critic of the Iraq war who was exiled from Labour almost two decades ago — has swept in, ready to pick up their votes.

YouTube videos of Galloway’s speeches and anti-Labour memes are flying through cyberspace at an infinitely faster rate than Leadbeater can knock on doors. Many here acknowledge that they will be casting a protest vote, to send a message to the Labour leadership.

Starmer’s “on-the-fence” approach to Israel and Palestine, and in particular his cautious and infrequent statements during the most recent violence in Gaza, have angered Muslim communities. While Starmer has taken a tough stance on antisemitism, some feel he has not been as robust in condemning Islamophobia. And his decision to remove the whip from Jeremy Corbyn — seen as an ally here on Middle East issues — has not gone down well. While Corbyn’s leadership cost Labour nationally at the last general election, this is one of the few seats where the change of leader could hurt the party. Starmer’s description of Kashmir as a “bilateral issue” has also caused controversy — the Labour conference had passed a resolution in 2019 which was critical of India’s actions towards Muslim-majority Kashmir.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d14467f2-c564-11eb-a80c-dfb0d2172f4f

This man is going to be the next MP for Batley & Spen and it's going to be fucking awesome.
>> No. 93948 Anonymous
14th June 2021
Monday 1:39 pm
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>>93886
>Keir Starmer has been warned not to take Muslim voters for granted, as polling shows support for the Labour party, and his personal ratings, falling among Muslim communities.

>Muslim voters have traditionally been strongly aligned to Labour, with constituencies with large Muslim populations considered among the party’s safest seats. But since the end of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, amid a swing to the right in domestic and foreign policy, and concerns over Starmer’s willingness to tackle Islamophobia in the party, that historic alignment is being increasingly called into question.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows

It's happening. George Galloway is either going to win in Batley & Spen or take enough votes from Labour for the Tories to take the seat.
>> No. 94006 Anonymous
16th June 2021
Wednesday 8:36 pm
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>In the streets of the West Yorkshire constituency of Batley and Spen, voters are uttering phrases that have in the past chilled the bones of Labour canvassers in the party’s fallen heartlands of Scotland and the so-called red wall. “Labour have abandoned us,” say some; “we are going to teach them a lesson,” say others. They are disproportionately – but not exclusively – Muslims in a constituency in which a fifth of voters are of Asian heritage, and their disillusionment has an angry edge.

>Ahead of the byelection on 1 July, the Labour hierarchy appears to be stuck in the patterns of remote complacency that we have seen before. The mistakes that saw its historic loss of Hartlepool in the May bylection, and the collapse of core parts of its support over the course of a generation, risk being repeated again. Some Labour councillors – who are keen not to be identified publicly, fearing being denounced for disloyalty – claim that on a number of streets that delivered overwhelming support for their party in the 2019 general election, residents now hurl abuse at their canvassers. George Galloway joining the race at the end of May for the Workers Party of Britain sent tremors through Labour’s campaign. One of Britain’s most divisive politicians, he has several comprehensive defeats stuffed in his belt – most recently in Scotland – but also two astonishing victories over Labour in east London in the 2005 general election and in the 2012 Bradford West byelection, just a few miles down the road from Batley.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/16/labour-batley-and-spen-jeremy-corbyn-scottish-voters

I've seen several reports now of Labour canvassers not being able to make headway in Batley because Galloway has got to them first.
>> No. 94007 Anonymous
16th June 2021
Wednesday 8:41 pm
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>>94006

I might be tempted to vote for the cubic Pratchett, why not.
>> No. 94008 Anonymous
16th June 2021
Wednesday 8:55 pm
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>>94007
Labour are absolutely shitting themselves. At this rate they'd do well to finish above third.
>> No. 94009 Anonymous
16th June 2021
Wednesday 11:00 pm
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>>94006
I've spent too long on the internet, the white and gold made me think of a libertarian-monarchist. He even has the fedora to go with it.
>> No. 94010 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 12:40 am
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>>94006

If I were Starmer, I doubt I'd want the endorsement of a man who vigorously and repeatedly praised Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad and Jimmy saville.
>> No. 94013 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:47 am
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>>94010
Are we reaching the stage where Labour losing the seat of Batley & Spen is going to be claimed as a moral victory?
>> No. 94023 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 10:32 am
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>>94013

If they lose the seat because a lot of the locals prefer a more anti-Semitic candidate, then yes, I do think that counts as a moral victory.

The Tories have had a huge bounce in the polls thanks to the vaccine rollout, Labour have still got a huge amount of work to do, but Batley & Spen is deeply unrepresentative of the country as a whole and isn't a seat that Labour necessarily wants to win. Labour unseated Galloway in Bradford East in 2015, but utterly disgraced themselves in the process.
>> No. 94027 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 10:49 am
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>>94023
>the locals prefer a more anti-Semitic candidate

Is this code for "the locals are Muslim"?
>> No. 94034 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 11:57 am
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>>94027

No, it's code for "Galloway is a notorious anti-Semite who has been running his by-election campaign on an anti-Semitic platform". Muslims aren't all anti-Semitic - a Muslim group who fundraised to save the Bradford synagogue when Galloway refused to help - but it's abundantly clear that Galloway's career in recent decades has been predisposed upon stoking intolerance.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/19/george-galloway-interviewed-police-bradford-israel-free-zone
>> No. 94044 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 1:06 pm
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>>94034
You're conflating "anti-zionist" with "anti-semite", just like we had with Labour when Corbyn was leader. Disingenuous.
>> No. 94047 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 1:34 pm
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>>94044

>"We don't want any laplanderstani goods, we don't want any laplanderstani services, we don't want any laplanderstani academics coming to the university or the college, we don't even want any laplanderstani tourists to come to Bradford, even if any of them had thought of doing so."

Get the picture? When you replace "Israel" with any other nation, the rhetoric of anti-Zionists is revealed as transparently racist.

You're entitled to criticise the actions of the Israeli state, you're entitled to argue over where the borders should be drawn, you're entitled to defend the rights of the Palestinian people, but Israel has the same right to exist as any other nation; arguing that the Jewish homeland is uniquely invalid is innately anti-Semitic. Anti-Zionism isn't a cipher for anti-Semitism, it is anti-Semitism.
>> No. 94049 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 2:04 pm
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>>94047
>>"We don't want any North Korean goods, we don't want any North Korean services, we don't want any North Korean academics coming to the university or the college, we don't even want any North Korean tourists to come to Bradford, even if any of them had thought of doing so."

How exactly would you be racist against North Koreans over South Koreans? You couldn't, so maybe it's not the right word?

Replace with CCP, same thing. You can criticise a state and launch sanctions, it's not racist to do so, the racist part would presumably be conflating your opinion on the nation/state with that of its peoples. I'm anti-Israel but that's about it. Anti China too, but there's a lot of ground between "Your state is shit" and "You are shit".
>> No. 94050 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 2:20 pm
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>>94023
Can that not be applied to all seats and all issues? If Labour lose Liverpool Walton because a lot of the locals prefer a more Thatcherite candidate, why is that not a moral victory for Labour?
>> No. 94051 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 2:28 pm
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>>94049
>How exactly would you be racist against North Koreans over South Koreans? You couldn't, so maybe it's not the right word?

Not him but actually it is and I'm not even a bongo-enricher. You might argue the technical definition is wrong but you're still be prejudiced against a specific group of people for where they hail from, in fact an organisation would be engaged in direct discrimination if they had any policy to this effect outside of those given under UK law.

It's literally saying "we don't want your kind here".

>Replace with CCP, same thing. You can criticise a state and launch sanctions, it's not racist to do so, the racist part would presumably be conflating your opinion on the nation/state with that of its peoples. I'm anti-Israel but that's about it. Anti China too, but there's a lot of ground between "Your state is shit" and "You are shit".

You are actually playing into CCP propaganda here and it's something the west needs to understand. The Chinese Communist Party equates themselves with the Chinese people so that any criticism of the state becomes an attack on the Chinese people and it's legitimacy can be cemented over the Republic of China or any other Chinese that oppose them.

And it's still racist.
>> No. 94052 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 2:49 pm
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>>94049

There is a world of difference between being opposed to the actions of the Israeli state and being opposed to the existence of the Israeli state. Galloway proudly falls into the latter camp. That's the literal, factual meaning of "anti-Zionist".

Someone who is critical of the Israeli government but recognises the right of Israel to exist isn't an anti-Zionist, but anti-Semites have deliberately conflated the two to give themselves the veneer of legitimacy. They have cleverly concocted an argument that the actions of a particular government justifies the destruction of the only homeland the Jewish people have ever had.
>> No. 94053 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 3:01 pm
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>>94047
>Get the picture? When you replace "Israel" with any other nation, the rhetoric of anti-Zionists is revealed as transparently racist.
Let me try:
>"We don't want any pro-Apartheid South African goods, we don't want any pro-Apartheid South African services, we don't want any pro-Apartheid South African academics coming to the university or the college, we don't even want any pro-Apartheid South African tourists to come to Bradford, even if any of them had thought of doing so."
>> No. 94054 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 3:42 pm
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>>94053

Economic boycotts can be a legitimate form of political protest. The boycotts of South Africa had the specific purpose of ending the policies of Apartheid.

Galloway was engaging in discrimination, not a boycott. His explicitly-stated goal is not the reform of the Israeli government, but the abolition of Israeli statehood.
>> No. 94055 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 3:44 pm
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>>94052
>anti-Semites have deliberately conflated the two
Come now, it suits everyone to conflate the two. Anti-Semites can hide their anti-semitism, while the Israeli government (or its supporters) can make bad faith accusations of antisemitism against those who make legitimate criticisms of it. That the result of this behaviour is getting both sides locked into a spiral from which no serious discussion can emerge (but a lot of hatred can!) is a feature, not a bug.
Of course we can go further: " 'Israeli... supporters... in bad faith?', ah, that old trope: clearly what you are is an anti-semite trying to malign those who call out anti-semitism.", and then perhaps an actual anti-semite can jump to my defence, and then people who've seen how I was unfairly maligned will jump to his defense when he's fairly maligned, and the great thing here is that almost everyone can be acting in good faith and everyone is going to come across as though they were acting in bad faith.
>> No. 94056 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 3:47 pm
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>>94054

I didn't say anything about Galloway nor see anything about him in the post I was responding to. Just anti-Zionism. You know, boycotting goods and services from the state of Israel for the specific purpose of ending the policies of Apartheid.
>> No. 94057 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 3:58 pm
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>>94056
Otherlad again, I don't know why you'd ever use the term 'anti-Zionism' unless you were deliberately being edgy. Not least as anti-apartheid is a much more accurate term and one that isn't loaded with unnecessary modern and historical baggage.

That you're in the same company as George Galloway should be a giveaway that something is going wrong.
>> No. 94058 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 4:13 pm
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>>94057

I don't recall many bombing campaigns in apartheid-era SA. The project of Zionism includes apartheid but evidently is more than just that. Some of that baggage is relevant.

>That you're in the same company as George Galloway should be a giveaway that something is going wrong.
You speak the same language as and share a culture with him. That puts you in his company too. Lets all make up arbitrary categorisations defined however we want. You eat finger sandwiches just like Mao Zedong, therefore you're a tankie.
>> No. 94059 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 5:14 pm
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>>94058
You should look up a group called uMkhonto we Sizwe, a group responsible for multiple bombings and led by evil daft militant wog Nelson Mandela. People overlook this part of the story these days, but he was around and very much behind it. That's why he went to prison.
>> No. 94060 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 5:57 pm
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>>94059
He founded the thing, picked out targets, and even provided ground support for some of the attacks in the early days. He eloquently explains the reasoning for the group in his address to the court at the Rivonia Trial. Of course, they went to shit while he was inside, adopting all sorts of questionable tactics, like mining roads used mainly by black workers, as well as the dreaded "necklace".

Three of South Africa's five post-Apartheid Presidents are known to have been involved in MK. The exceptions are the incumbent Ramaphosa and that interim one whose name nobody can spell or pronounce.
>> No. 94061 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:00 pm
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>>94059
uMkhonto we Sizwe would be Hamas in this context so I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up.
>> No. 94062 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:05 pm
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>>94061
This you?
>I don't recall many bombing campaigns in apartheid-era SA.
>> No. 94063 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:16 pm
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>>94056

If you believe that Israel has a right to exist but you are critical of the policies of the Israeli government, you're not an anti-Zionist.

You could argue that Israel is an apartheid state, but only by arguing that the Palestinian Territories are part of Israel. If we recognise that the Palestinian Territories are autonomously governed by the Palestinian Authority (and Hamas in Gaza), then Israel by definition cannot be engaged in apartheid simply by securing their border.
>> No. 94064 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:25 pm
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>>94062
Yes, I was talking about from planes but didn't make that clear enough.
>> No. 94065 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:30 pm
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>>94063
>You could argue that Israel is an apartheid state, but only by arguing that the Palestinian Territories are part of Israel.
I was wondering who would be representing us in mental gymnastics in Tokyo.
>> No. 94066 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:31 pm
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>>94058
>I don't recall many bombing campaigns in apartheid-era SA

You might want to look up the South African Border War. Or what was going on in South Africa itself.

>You speak the same language as and share a culture with him. That puts you in his company too. Lets all make up arbitrary categorisations defined however we want. You eat finger sandwiches just like Mao Zedong, therefore you're a tankie.

To put it another way; everyone thinks you're some extremist media-studies student.

>>94063
I'd argue the Israeli Arabs and other minorities constitute second-class citizens. Although this still applies in an Apartheid concept given we'd hardly call the Bantustans as a solution in South Africa.
>> No. 94067 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 6:32 pm
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>>94062
I assume it's in reference to the bombing of Gaza by the IAF.
So the South African analogy is more like the Border War/Namibian War of Independence, though that gets messy because most of the SAAFs targets were actually in Angola.

>>94063
Surely the catch here is that Zionism winds up taking on more than one meaning, much like with "nationalism"?
It's one thing to be (say) a Scottish Nationalist, who thinks that Scotland (with land and sea borders already agreed within the UK) should be independent. It's another to go all BNP and have more or less accepted borders, but want to send all the descendants of immigrants "home", and it's another again to be a Serbian or Croatian nationalist who wants to carve up their neighbors by military force. But all of these people are inconveniently referred to by the label "nationalist", at which point people start making the error of imagining immanent ethnic cleansing on the Clyde, or a mass wave of deportations from a different party with a policy of mass immigration, or downplaying all the crimes committed in the Balkan wars because the nationalism they know is comparatively innocuous.
(The preferred substitute for most countries nationalism is "patriotism", but it's not very nice to say that unionist Scots are unpatriotic for believing their countries best future is within the UK.)

Basically the same phenomenon seems to happen with the term Zionism, where it comes to refer both to the inoffensive existence of a country, and to expansionism or discriminatory policy carried out by that country.
>> No. 94068 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 7:00 pm
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>>94065

Israel and the PLO agreed to mutual recognition in the Oslo Accords. The borders of Palestinian and Israeli territories remain disputed, but both sides agree that Gaza and the West Bank are under the civil control of the Palestinians.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is extraordinarily complex and precise details matter. If the West Bank and Gaza are part of an apartheid Israel, then Israeli settlement expansion and the West Bank barrier are perfectly legal because they fall under the domestic jurisdiction of Israel. You're entitled to take the view that the West Bank and Gaza are part of an apartheid Israeli state, but that position has a great many ramifications that you probably don't intend.
>> No. 94069 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 7:10 pm
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>>94068
Two things can be true at the same time. Such as these two:

1. The West Bank is not part of Israeli territory.
2. Israel operates an apartheid regime in the West Bank.

It's really not that hard.
>> No. 94070 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 7:20 pm
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>>94067

Zionism specifically refers to the belief in a Jewish homeland. Anti-Zionism is belief that the state of Israel should be eradicated, or never really existed in the first place.

Avowed anti-Zionists like Galloway, Corbyn and Livingstone fully understand and accept these definitions, but it's convenient for them to conflate anti-Zionism with criticisms of the Israeli government. It's a motte-and-bailey defence - they argue that the Jewish people have no right to national self-determination, but when criticised revert to "we're just defending the rights of Palestinians". They'll argue at length about all the terrible things Israel has done to the Palestinians and gloss over all the terrible things that Palestinians and the wider Arab world have done to Israel, while dancing around the fact that the only remedy for these injustices they will accept is the eradication of Israel.
>> No. 94071 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 7:21 pm
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>>94069

How can Israel operate an apartheid regime in a territory that they don't govern?
>> No. 94073 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 7:28 pm
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>>94071
Quite easily. I mean, you're the one that brought up the Oslo Accords, so presumably you know about Area C.
>> No. 94074 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 8:55 pm
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>>94065
>I was wondering who would be representing us in mental gymnastics in Tokyo.
There is no way I am going to read all of this shitty cursed thread, but I hope you're not the anti-zinger poster when you drop epic one-line pwnage like that.
>> No. 94075 Anonymous
17th June 2021
Thursday 9:00 pm
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>>94060
Also, because this sort of this is addictive:
>Three of South Africa's five post-Apartheid Presidents are known to have been involved in MK. The exceptions are the incumbent Ramaphosa and that interim one whose name nobody can spell or pronounce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kgalema_Motlanthe
>Motlanthe had been a student activist, trade unionist and member of the ANC's military wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe, during the struggle against apartheid.[4]
Every name except Kgalema Motlanthe is easier to pronounce, so I assume you meant him and he was one too. Sage for pedantry.
>> No. 94081 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 5:45 am
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Chesham and Amersham by-election won by Lib Dems

The Liberal Democrats have won a parliamentary seat from the Conservatives by overturning a majority of more than 16,000 in a constituency that had always been Tory.

Sarah Green won Chesham and Amersham in Thursday's by-election, called after the death of Conservative MP Dame Cheryl Gillan. Tory candidate Peter Fleet came second in the Buckinghamshire constituency. The Green Party came in third, with the Labour Party in fourth.

Ms Green won with 21,517 votes, compared to Mr Fleet's 13,489 - a majority of 8,028 votes. Dame Cheryl's 2019 majority was 16,223. The Green Party candidate polled 1,480, with Labour on 622.

Chesham and Amersham has had just two long-serving MPs in the 47 years since the seat was created in 1974. Ian Gilmour served from 1974 to 1992, followed by former Welsh Secretary Dame Cheryl, who died at the age of 68 on 4 April after a long illness. In 2019, she retained the seat with more than half of the vote.

But the Conservative majority has been steadily decreasing since the 2015 General Election, when it was 23,920, with UKIP coming second. In 2017, it was 22,140 with Labour second with 11,374, and in 2019 the Liberal Democrats got the second-highest number of votes, picking up 13% more than they did in 2017.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-57472032

YELLOW SURGE!
>> No. 94084 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 9:55 am
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>>94081
622 votes? Fuck me, that's cosmic background levels. Deposit thoroughly lost.
I wish we had an opposition.
Yay LibDems, but I'm not going to extrapolate much from this, despite them being my team.
>> No. 94085 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 10:01 am
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>>94084
From what I've read the Lib Dems won because they went all out on NIMBYism with their campaigning.
>> No. 94086 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 10:30 am
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>>94085
Candidates campaigning on issues in their constituency, what next?
>> No. 94088 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 11:09 am
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>>94085
Isn't that how they always won? I faintly remember their campaign guide circa 2010 or so saying: Be the most opportunistic fucker imaginable. Live in a Tory area? Play up that you hate Labour. Labour area? You hate Tories. Labour and Tories agree the local school has to close to save money? Say you'll keep it open, even if you've seen the numbers and know that's impossible. Once you get in you can blame it on the other lot anyway.
>> No. 94090 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 11:32 am
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>>94081
Imagine seeing the Tories secure the red wall only to lose the blue to the Lib Dems because they've stopped appealing to the cosmopolitan middle class. Almost feels sensible to think about it as a return to normality.
>> No. 94091 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 11:37 am
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*openly sobbing*
Labour actually did bad on purpose so we could get rid of a Tory MP, yeah, so remember to say thanks.

Fuck.
>> No. 94093 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 11:50 am
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>>94091
Look on the bright side, the Tories losing shows that Starmer’s excuses for being so far behind are a load of bollocks. His position could become untenable after Batley & Spen, especially as Labour have come out and said it could be 18 months before they actually have any policies in place.
>> No. 94113 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 3:46 pm
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>>94093
I still, just barely, don't want Starmer to go. Above all things I want to avoid another leadership race, but if he won't get the message that this isn't working I don't know what else there is. One massive problem is that the MPs who want him there, and who opposed Corbyn from hour one of his leadership, appear to have more will to fight than a Japanese Marine on Saipan, IE, it's impossible for these people to admit defeat; they never quit. Flamethrowering them to death isn't an option so I don't know what to do with them, because you can't sodding talk to them.

Do you have something I could read about that 18 months thing you mentioned? I feel like doing some cyber self-harm.
>> No. 94118 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 4:00 pm
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>>94113
>Do you have something I could read about that 18 months thing you mentioned? I feel like doing some cyber self-harm.

It's just a throwaway line here:

Dodds’s policy “roadmap,” which is expected to take more than 18 months to carry out, will cover six broad areas, including “a green and digital future,” “Britain in the world,” and “public services that work from the start”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/16/keir-starmer-picks-stonger-together-slogan-used-by-hillary-clinton-to-rebrand
>> No. 94125 Anonymous
18th June 2021
Friday 7:58 pm
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>>94118
Whoever picked "Stronger Together" either needs to be given a full time role on HIGNFY or be permanently banned from any political engagement whatsoever, down to having their right to vote taken away and being forbidden to speak at all during times when an election is on, depending on how much they were taking the piss.
>> No. 94127 Anonymous
20th June 2021
Sunday 8:35 pm
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>> No. 94199 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 11:55 am
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>Residents in Batley and Spen have told the JC “lesbianism” and the “Zionist lobby” are reasons why they will abandon Labour at the constituency’s upcoming by-election.

>Over two days the JC spoke to residents across the West Yorkshire constituency, covering areas including Hyrstand Road, Albion Street, Market Place, Town Street and Oak View. One voter said that Labour leader Keir Starmer “follows the Zionist lobby” and that the party’s candidate Ms Leadbeater was promoting “male to male relations” within schools. Residents – several of whom were speaking in Urdu - also voiced strong support for the independent candidate George Galloway.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/exclusive-batley-and-spen-residents-won-t-vote-labour-because-of-the-zionist-lobby-1.517918

There was an article in The Mail about a week ago saying that there are WhatsApp messages circulating around Asians in Batley talking about how Keir Starmer’s wife is Jewish and they're raising their kids to be Jewish and also mentioning that Kim Leadbeater is a lesbian so will push the LGBT agenda, but obviously we're not allowed to post that.
>> No. 94200 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 12:12 pm
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>>94199
If we're going to ban the Daily Mail here I argue we should ban the Jewish Chronicle too, it's almost as bad.
>> No. 94201 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 12:24 pm
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>>94200
Oh, Jeremy.
>> No. 94202 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 12:37 pm
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>>94201
Lad, they have Lee Harpin on staff.
>> No. 94203 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 12:49 pm
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>>94202
Not Lee Harpin!!
>> No. 94204 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 1:12 pm
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>George Galloway 'settles' for Heckmondwike Morrisons egg sarnie because he couldn't have his 'usual' Cafe 54 breakfast

>Mr Galloway has been sharing a host of pictures from his time in Heckmondwike with the latest showing him with what appears to be an egg sarnie. Captioning the photograph, he said: "Disappointed I couldn’t have my usual breakfast at Cafe 54 as it was closed so I had to settle for Morrisons which was equally as nice.
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/george-galloway-settles-heckmondwike-morrisons-20856279

Nail-biting stuff.

>>94200
I agree. This story is nothing but the usual slander from the Jewish-Lesbian cabal intent on banning Islam and turning beautiful Batley and Spen into a hotspot of girl-on-girl action.
>> No. 94205 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 1:22 pm
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>>94202

No they don't.

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/lee-harpin-40228b36

>>94204

I always wonder what Galloway is hiding under that hat. I like to imagine it's another, smaller hat.
>> No. 94206 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 1:25 pm
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>>94205
>I like to imagine it's another, smaller hat.
Well according to the JC that's exactly what the voters of Batley and Spen don't want.
>> No. 94207 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 1:34 pm
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>>94204
The article would most likely meet Labour's definition of Islamaphobia.

>>94205
I imagine it's an emergency egg sandwich in case there's no café open nearby.
>> No. 94208 Anonymous
24th June 2021
Thursday 2:54 pm
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>>94206
I'm in awe at the size of your funny bone. BPOTYL
>> No. 94214 Anonymous
26th June 2021
Saturday 7:32 am
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“My brother was a miner, my dad was a builder, my mam was a barmaid who worked in mills, I was a nurse – you’re not going to vote anybody but Labour, are you?”

Cheryl Rowan, 62, is just the type of voter that the Labour party is desperately trying to hold on to in next week’s byelection in Batley and Spen, and in their former northern heartlands more generally. She lives in one of a small row of council houses in Heckmondwike, a town formerly known for manufacturing blankets as part of West Yorkshire’s heavy woollen district. That industry is long gone.

“There’s no shoe factories, no textiles, we were a northern powerhouse but now we ain’t got anything but restaurants and a new swimming pool that’s getting built that you can work at, and care … there’s no other jobs,” Rowan says.

Rowan, however, has had enough. Despite her lifelong affiliation to the party, she has gradually grown detached from it over the years, and for the first time in her life she will vote Conservative. The reasons are myriad and stretch back years. As a Brexit supporter, she describes with disgust an image during the referendum campaign of remain politicians and Bob Geldof “on a yacht, shouting down at fishermen while drinking champagne”. She says Jeremy Corbyn “put me off totally”, and she does not think the party represents working-class people. “They’re all lawyers or doctors,” she says. “Keir Starmer – he was a lawyer, wasn’t it? He’s not Harold Wilson, is he?”

Leadbeater began her campaign with a strong focus on local issues that are continually raised by residents: poorly kept roads, rising crime rates, litter. However, many residents lay the blame for those issues at the feet of the local Labour-led council and previous Labour MPs. Rowan acknowledges that the council has had to make cuts as a result of government-imposed austerity, but says: “It’s Labour who have been in power here, so you blame your local council, don’t you? They’ve got the money.”

George Galloway’s entry into the race means the Labour campaign has also turned to foreign policy issues important to Muslim voters, who make up about one-fifth of the community. Rowan says she has good relationships with her Muslim neighbours, who check in on her and deliver food during religious festivals, but she dislikes this focus. “[The election is] about Heckmondwike … it’s not about Palestine and Israel. Why bring that into it?”

Other white voters cite this as a reason for not supporting Labour, such as Lisa James, 50, who worked in sales management pre-pandemic and is now a home carer. “I don’t believe that the Labour candidate’s got the interests of Batley and Spen [at heart], I think she’s more about foreign policy,” James says. She will also vote Conservative next week. “My dad would probably turn in his grave that I’ve voted Tory, but there you go.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/25/theyre-all-lawyers-labour-voters-look-elsewhere-in-batley-byelection
>> No. 94215 Anonymous
26th June 2021
Saturday 9:10 am
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>>94214

It perplexes me why the media always frames this as "What have the Tories got that Labour haven't? What are the Tories doing right to attract Labour voters? What has changed about working class people that's making them defect to the Tories?", which is to completely miss the point which is staring us in the face.

It's not that these people are brimming with enthusiasm for the Conservatives, it's that dog shit on a stick is more appealing than your average Labour MP nowadays. The Tories don't have some trump card over Labour, the working class aren't suddenly clamouring for privatisation and market liberalisation; they're just not totally and utterly fucking shit.

What's going to be interesting is that the Tories are nothing if not pragmatic. They've already won a landslide purely on the back of just not doing the things that put people off Labour, so when they double down on it and actively try to be appealing (We'll re-legalise saying you're English, we'll build trains, we've taken down all our pictures of Thatcher!) they'll all but monopolise the white working class.

Lib Dems will become the main party of opposition because of the poshos who are horrified that the Conservatives have betrayed them by giving Northerners money, and British politics will just become identical to American politics.
>> No. 94216 Anonymous
26th June 2021
Saturday 12:02 pm
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>>94215
>Lib Dems will become the main party of opposition because of the poshos who are horrified that the Conservatives have betrayed them by giving Northerners money
It's not happening for that reason though.
The upper class poshos are turning against the tories because the lies and sleaze and corruption and general incompetence of the current government has just gone too far for them. And by most accounts they're more pissed off at the demented changes to planning law than anything else, I mean it is looking possible at this stage that so many Tory MPs are going to vote against it that Boris could actually lose the vote despite his massive majority.
>> No. 94217 Anonymous
26th June 2021
Saturday 12:36 pm
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>>94215
>The Tories don't have some trump card over Labour, the working class aren't suddenly clamouring for privatisation and market liberalisation; they're just not totally and utterly fucking shit.
Well this is just blatant nonsense. The Tories are by any objective measure totally and utterly fucking shit.
>> No. 94218 Anonymous
26th June 2021
Saturday 12:57 pm
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>>94217

Are you talking about politics, or material real world impact? Because we're talking about politics. Otherwise you'd be right.
>> No. 94219 Anonymous
26th June 2021
Saturday 11:42 pm
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>>94218
I mean, they're pretty bad even at politics. They just have special electoral Teflon where absolutely nobody cares at all about their constant scandals. People vote for them, yes, but there's more to politics than that.

>>94216
>demented changes to planning law
I haven't heard about this. What are they trying to do?
>> No. 94220 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 12:04 am
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>>94216

>The upper class poshos are turning against the tories because the lies and sleaze and corruption and general incompetence of the current government has just gone too far for them.

Hm, I dunno about that. I don't think the true posho types give the slightest shit about any of that stuff as long as the taxes and interest rates and whatever else stay put.

I think it's more the middle class home counties London commuter types, who care a great deal more, but we're willing to tolerate it all as long as the taxes and interest rates and whatever else stay put. A Tory party that favours populism and starts throwing money around is what became distasteful for them, because it's potentially disruptive to their cosy status quo. It's the kind of people who would always have been more natural lib-dems really, but who voted tactically against Labour all this time.
>> No. 94221 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 1:57 am
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>>94219
>I haven't heard about this. What are they trying to do?

The proposals would weaken the ability of local councils/public to block planning permission if the area falls in a 'growth' or 'renewal' zone. Basically we need to build a fuck-ton of housing sharpish and the government proposes that making things much easier for developers would help address this including cutting into the green belt.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/21/conservative-mps-put-pressure-on-government-to-scrap-planning-reforms

I don't actually see what is so wrong about this from a national standpoint. Obviously it's politically toxic because everyone who owns a home automatically becomes a selfish cunt but I suspect otherlad has just bought into some tired rhetoric on this from Labour without being able to offer an alternative.
>> No. 94222 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 2:23 am
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>>94221
The problem is that it enables developers to ram through developments of luxury homes and shitboxes without regard for local services and infrastructure by effectively taking away the power of planning authorities to require developers to pay towards those things.
>> No. 94223 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 9:38 am
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>>94221
>I don't actually see what is so wrong about this from a national standpoint.

It's bad from just about every perspective you can name, rightly or wrongly.

From the viewpoint of existing homeowners, who are more likely to vote Tory: They're against it because of the NIMBY aspect. They're against it because being near new developments could devalue their homes. And they're against it because the government allege the purpose is to control house prices in general.

From the viewpoint of the general population, homeowners or not: They're against it because removal of planning laws raises risk of development destroying habitats and parkland. It waters down what little safeguards there are from the dangers posed by building on flood plains and catchment areas. It means housing estates being built with little regard for infrastructure like improving surrounding roads, or guaranteeing access to amenities like schools. It makes it easier for developers to get away with building on every scrap of land instead of leaving green space and footpaths for residents.

Most importantly, the stated aim of reforming planning laws is to massively increase the supply of new housing. This is utter bollocks as evidenced by the fact that most developers already have a large surplus of land with planning permission already granted for which they aren't building on. Relaxing planning laws will reduce the costs involved in gaining planning permission, but developers themselves already control the supply and they have no reason to build any faster than they already are, even if the supply of skilled labour and building material was there, which right now there is a massive shortage of both.
>> No. 94224 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 10:17 am
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>>94223

>most developers already have a large surplus of land with planning permission already granted for which they aren't building on

Because our broken planning system means that developers are in the business of land speculation, not housebuilding. Making planning permission easier to get undermines the economics of land-banking, because it is no longer safe to assume that the value of an undeveloped plot will only ever increase.

>even if the supply of skilled labour and building material was there, which right now there is a massive shortage of both

Both issues are temporary, due to the exceptional circumstances of brexit and covid. Shipping and the flow of gastarbeiter should return to normal by the first half of 2022.
>> No. 94225 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 9:25 pm
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Fake Labour flyers being distributed in Batley. Labour activists being attacked. Kim Leadbeater being chased and harassed.

This is a very ugly by-election.
>> No. 94226 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 9:55 pm
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>>94225
Objectionable as false-flag actions are and I'm surprised they're not more common, really. There is something darkly funny about the world's shittiest photo-op coming back to haunt Starmer in this form.
>> No. 94227 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 10:03 pm
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>>94226

I notice they cropped out Angela Rayner, knowing that I, and people like me, would vote for those boots that she wore on that occasion. Fucking scandalous.
>> No. 94228 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 10:47 pm
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>>94225
>> No. 94229 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 10:51 pm
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>>94228
>Replying to @Hezbolladbible
That's a Twitter profile I am definitely going to look up.
>> No. 94230 Anonymous
27th June 2021
Sunday 10:55 pm
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He's a madman! A madman, I say!

https://twitter.com/hezbolladbible
>> No. 94231 Anonymous
28th June 2021
Monday 8:17 pm
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One of Labour's actual flyers in Batley has a picture of Boris Johnson with Modi on it.
>> No. 94232 Anonymous
28th June 2021
Monday 11:19 pm
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>>94231
So?

It's hypocritical, given Labour have themselves palmed Modi in the past, but has he suddenly become not an arse that one should be ashamed to be associated with, or what?
>> No. 94233 Anonymous
29th June 2021
Tuesday 6:38 am
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>>94232
It's a flyer being distributed in an area with many laplanderstani Muslims that has an arrow with "the risk of voting for anyone but Labour is clear" pointing to a picture of the Indian prime minister. It's a dog whistle.
>> No. 94234 Anonymous
29th June 2021
Tuesday 7:25 am
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>>94233
What exactly is it dogwhistling? I'd think the India-laplanderstan disputes, but that's mentioned directly underneath the image so that can't be the dogwhistle, it's just a whistle.
>> No. 94235 Anonymous
29th June 2021
Tuesday 7:31 am
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>>94231

Overall the tone that leaflet gives off, to me, is that it takes the Asian/Muslim vote for gtanted on the basis that the other guys are racist. I'd feel pretty patronised if I were a brown.

It's the same losing strategy that has cost them the white working class vote, funnily enough. Tenner bet the same justifications will come out afterwards too, except instead of xenophobic white van men it'll be anti-semitic imams.
>> No. 94236 Anonymous
29th June 2021
Tuesday 9:35 am
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>>94235

But Modi is pretty openly an enemy to Muslims and Johnson genuinely does want to sidle up close to him, the most recent evidence being him delaying putting India on the red list so long because he wanted to visit. Him being shown shaking hands with a brown man doesn't scream "racist" but him shaking hands with someone who's making discriminatory laws against Muslims might be a reminder to Muslims that he wants to get closer to that same person.

Not that I have high hopes for Labour either way. I'm not really sure what the point is here.
>> No. 94237 Anonymous
29th June 2021
Tuesday 1:01 pm
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>>94231
Ah the Zac Goldsmith playbook. Both parties have really done a shameful thing in playing up Hindu and laplanderstani nationalism for votes and I'm sure it will all end well if we play the 'your surname means you're on our side' politics. Because when has that ever go awry in the entire history of the world.

Plus Islam is a backwards belief system that has no place in a modern society like all religion and India is a fair-weather friend at best with a society too dysfunctional to be a viable focus for British trade.
>> No. 94249 Anonymous
2nd July 2021
Friday 6:45 am
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323 votes in it. The Tories could have won that if they actually bothered campaigning rather than just leaving Galloway and Labour to throw muck at each other.

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