Recovering alkie here. I was drinking 2 bottles of vodka a day at the height of my infamy (seems incredible now), but life is honestly so much simpler since I gave it up. Drinking becomes a full-time occupation, complete with work-related stress and so on. Relationships are so much easier now too. Best thing though is not having to endure the dreaded wait for the offy to open in the morning any more. Fucking brutal.
Still have the odd relapse mindyou, maybe twice a year if I'm unlucky. It's funny - withrawal is the worst thing in the world when you're going through it, but when you've been sober for 6 months or so, you do tend to forget how bad it really was.
...so then you get bored (and life can be very dull without intoxication) and you think 'what the hell'... glug glug glug.
Been considering going to as rehab clinic at some point, as all the guys who have been sober for years and years appear to have had a stint at some point. There's only really two things been stopping me - first, they're not cheap, and secondly, they do tend to be run by god-bothering types (it's for that reason, I can't be doing with AA either).
Another recovering alkie here. I slowly (around 3 years) built a daily routine from 2-4 beers at first to a bottle of vodka a day towards the end with a pretty reliable "sober during the day, booze at night until knock-out" rhythm. A few days, sometimes nearly week break did happen and always ended with a very unpleasant feeling auto-pilot episode in the supermarket (did/does anyone else get that? You go to the shop with every intention of not buying booze, but then physically cannot bring yourself to pass by the aisle?). I eventually quit when, after a move and not quite familiar with the new place I woke up with a wet patch in the stair case because apparently I couldn't find the toilet — and absolutely no recollection of when and how it had happened.
> It's funny - withdrawal is the worst thing in the world when you're going through it, but when you've been sober for 6 months or so, you do tend to forget how bad it really was.
>>2130 Back on the juice after nearly 6 months without. Worst part, I've taken up stumbling to the local chippy while pish-drunk again. Give it a month and I can probably stop wearing my belt again...
>does anyone else get that? You go to the shop with every intention of not buying booze, but then physically cannot bring yourself to pass by the aisle?
I know exactly what you mean. I always come up with some kind of excuse for it once I'm there - nothing to do tomorrow so why not/didn't drink that much last night/that DVD arrived this morning and it'd be nice to have a beer to go with it, etc etc.
>life can be very dull without intoxication
I wish being sober was as much fun as being drunk, I really do.
I don't understand addiction. There comes a point, when doing anything to excess, where I begin to hate it and have to stop doing it for a while. Any feelings of longing which led me to that excess in the first place are invariably trumped by the disgust which I start to feel, and my desire to feel normal again. When I'm feeling as trashed as can possibly be, or waking up feeling like death and surrounded by detritus and the barely-breathing bodies of a bunch of strangers, the 'boredom' of sobriety is the most wonderful goal I can imagine.
I don't say this to be flippant, dismissive (or even worse - to be a smug cunt), I'm just genuinely interested in how those of you who consider yourselves alcoholics wound up that way. I don't understand how the desire to feel sober gets swamped in the first place.
>>2912 Addiction is a funny beast which doesn't work the same for everyone. In much the same way some people can feel no greater joy in life than to carefully arrange stamps in an album, for other's that incomprehensible. After all, spotting Eddie Stobart trucks is much better! In other words, not everyone ticks the same.
To complicate things further, there are different types of alcoholic: from needing a constant minimum level of drunkenness to function, to spending the days mostly sober then insta-gibbing each evening (that's me), to the related "if-then" drinkers who, once they start, cannot stop until they pass out plus a few more depending on who you trust.
> I'm just genuinely interested in how those of you who consider yourselves alcoholics wound up that way.
One problem you touched on yourself already:
> When I'm feeling as trashed as can possibly be, or waking up feeling like death and surrounded by detritus and the barely-breathing bodies of a bunch of strangers, the 'boredom' of sobriety is the most wonderful goal I can imagine. And yet, seemingly, you've ended up in that situation more than once already. Why is that? Speed up the the "never again… meh, why not" cycle a bit and you know one reason why addiction works.
Another thing I noticed is that "professional" alcoholics don't really seem to get hung-over much: they're mercilessly efficient at getting the dosage just right. Ever watched a completely plastered smoker who is barely able to keep upright surprisingly dexterously roll a ciggie? Similar concept.
Anyway, moving away from generalities, in my case a few things played together which, individually, probably would've been fine:
I started drinking on my own to unwind after work. Crucial mistake there was to very gradually increase the dose and pretend that wasn't an issue. Justifying "one more" really is scarily easy.
I started drinking to just generally de-stress, which compounded that issue. Furthermore, I didn't (and don't) have much of a social life, which is a vicious circle: on the one hand it's incredibly easy to hide the drinking, on the other it's tricky to expand your contacts when evenings are already spoken for.
I developed the "auto-pilot" mentioned above, which may be the hardest part to grasp: It's immensely difficult to just not buy booze. At the back of my mind there's a little niggle when I know there's not enough alc in the house for a comfortable night, and that niggle becomes a roar once in a shop — and if it gets close to closing time for the local shops. On the nights I do mange to go without I'm a nervous wreck around 8pm (Aldi shuts, cheapest vodka), 9pm (Co-op shuts, next best option, gin or vodka) and particularly around 10pm (Spar and garage shuts, last chance). If I make it to quarter past 10 there's no way to get booze, but then another problem kicks in:
Withdrawal is a bitch. My heart rate becomes erratic, I have trouble breathing, and I'm as awake as if I had a few litres of coffee. I can kiss goodbye to any hope of a good night's sleep at that point, sobriety suddenly doesn't seem like such a tempting option. The next day, apart from being tired and irritable, I'll have the attention span of a hyperactive squirrel. Last, but not least, it becomes more and more difficult to ignore the mess I'm in.
And here's the kicker, which is perhaps the most crucial aspect of what maintains an addiction once it's there, what some call the siren-song of addiction: booze makes every single one of those immediate problems go away near-instantly.
tl;dr: It takes a while to construct a full-fledged addiction, but once you're there you've built yourself a carefully calibrated and conducive environment for maintaining it.
Not really though. It might help give you a wider perspective for a bit but if you have a serious addiction it's not going to cure it, or help deal with any underlying issues.
>Get hobby
I have many hobbies. I don't need new obsessions, honestly.
The problem is that none of them win out against getting fucked up drunk.
>I don't understand how the desire to feel sober gets swamped in the first place.
I have no desire to be sober. On the contrary, for as long as I can remember I've had an omnipresent desire to drop whatever it is I'm doing and get wasted in some manner or other, with whoever's around - booze is the easy choice, since it's so readily available and socially acceptable.
Left to my own devices on a desert island, I'd be a full time alkie, no question.
>>2923 I didn't find it convoluted or rambling at all, for whatever it's worth. Discursive (though not in a bad way), but lucid and with a clear internal logic and coherence, as well as genuine insight...
... and now that I feel like a pseud-y suck-up, I'll stop.
>>3186 This is getting depressing. More than a year later and nothing has really changed: just had a week off, back on the sauce this weekend. Still getting drunk by myself (though, hey, in a new place) in front of a computer wasting my life.
How do you lot cope with the sleeping? It's the sleeping on an off day that's the worst. I just fucking can't, and I get weirdly paranoid about it, the constant self-questioning that occurs during a sober bedtime drives me insane. I've found that a few co-codamol help, especially if with a hard limit of a couple of cans of Stella or equivalent, but fucking Christ it is brutal trying to get to sleep otherwise. I was awake three days earlier this year at the end of a particularly intense and extended bender, full on rattling the whole time. Ugh.
I'm also starting to get panic attacks when I'm out in public without a drink in me during a binge period. I feel a wave of nausea and my heart rate goes through the roof if I feel I can't get somewhere on my own where other people can't see me and get my shit together. What the fuck.
>>4204 I'll tell you what's more depressing than being in the same place than a year ago: being a lot worse. Fucking hell, at least when I was posting this >>2919 my drinking wasn't every night.
>>4288 Sleep is fucked on the first night off, the second is the absolute worst and only then does it slightly improve. The short answer is you don't cope, you make do.
Getting the mind to shut the fuck up and let me sleep is hard, though I find the nightmares worse. Without fail I'll wake up every hour or so because my brain conjured up another vision of goodness knows what.
Equally unconducive to a good night's rest is that I sweat like a stuck pig during those times. I have to flip my blanket a few times a night so one side can dry out a bit while I'm busy moistening up the other.
One way to minimise the effects is "tapering", which is more or less what you're doing already with your hard limit drinking: have some to take the edge of and reduce the amount over a few days. To the initiated: this only sounds simple, it's fucking hard to do.
> Fucking hell, at least when I was posting this >>2919 my drinking wasn't every night.
Welcome to my life. In some sense it has got worse: normally weekends were no different from other days, but recently more and more often I crack open the first beer on Friday night and wake up sometime around Monday morning, the interim filled with drink, pass out, wake up repeated a few times.
>>4291 Not sure if you're being sarcastic or sincere, but yep. It really is that simple. All it takes is are some bad decisions couple with some bad luck spiced with a pinch of autism/mental instability, for some it takes even less. The only reason I'm not out on the streets is because twice now friends have come to the rescue and put me up while I sort myself out; I'm back in a place where I make a reasonable living and was able to pay back "rent" I owed them in full, which I'm disproportionally proud of, but if I hadn't had those friends… well, let's just say I have some sensible outdoor equipment not because I like hiking so much but because it might come in really handy at some point.
I like a drink more than your average person, but really chaps, how does it get to a stage of dependency?
Would you say you have underlying confidence, self-esteem or similar issues that you are using drinking as a crutch/anaesthetic for? Or is it just a genuine dependancy on alcohol for it's own sake? Im genuinely curious, I hope my post doesn't sound sarcastic or mocking.
I can empathise with your actual behaviour. I mean, I loathe spending more time sober than my job contractually requires. As soon as I get home the first thing I do is usually to grab a beer. Sometimes I drink a lot, sometimes I only have a few. I don't need to get plastered every night, I just need the warm comforting feeling of some kind of intoxication, to take away the bleakness of reality and let me relax. A lot of the time I'd rather get high; but when it comes to the hassle of accquisition, it's an easy choice between the Tesco 5 minutes away, and the hours of hassle finding and picking up some bud.
Having to spend time at home, alone, and sober whenever you have no choice can be pretty depressing. But I mean, apart from that niggling "Christ I'm bored shitless, why don't I have any drugs" at the back of my mind, life goes on. I stay up later and read a book or actually tidy up for a change, maybe, but it isn't the end of the world.
Where is the crossover point between my kind of behaviour, and that of debilitating alcoholism?
What's worse for your health, drinking 10 units in one night over a whole week (Saturday binge) or 20 units spaced out steadily over the week? I usually have a binge.
> I like a drink more than your average person, but really chaps, how does it get to a stage of dependency?
Well, the rest of this thread should provide some examples of how it works, e.g. >>2253,>>2910,>>2913 etc.
> Would you say you have underlying confidence, self-esteem or similar issues that you are using drinking as a crutch/anaesthetic for?
Everyone likes to tell their story, so the answers you'll get to this question are likely to be exaggerated, distorted and otherwise untrue. Cause and effect get blurred as well. Are we this way because we drink or do we drink because we are this way?
> Having to spend time at home, alone, and sober whenever you have no choice can be pretty depressing.
Welcome. That feeling of intolerable sobriety is a warning sign. Stop now or forever hold your peace, as it were. You sound a lot like me, in fact: I'd rather get high, but getting weed is a chore where as booze can be had any time of day with ease.
> But I mean, apart from that niggling "Christ I'm bored shitless, why don't I have any drugs" at the back of my mind, life goes on.
Eventually you give up. Eventually it changes from "I should be doing something!" to "Why do I even bother?". That's where your initial question about mental issues comes back, I guess.
If you have specific questions, ask, I'll be happy to answer.
Sounds like you're a fledgling alcoholic. Also stuff like:
>Would you say you have underlying confidence, self-esteem or similar issues that you are using drinking as a crutch/anaesthetic for? Or is it just a genuine dependancy on alcohol for it's own sake? Im genuinely curious, I hope my post doesn't sound sarcastic or mocking.
is a very obvious indication that you're trying to distance yourself from alcohol being a "problem". Be honest with yourself.
It started for me when I was 20 or so. I'd be up for a drink but nobody else in the shared house was so I'd nail a few cans and watch a few movies on my own. Over the years that became an 8-pack and a couple of nights a week, to kill the boredom of work, which means that if you're getting fucked up with mates at the weekend it's four out of every seven nights spent intoxicated. It's a seamless drift into a nightly thing from there, especially if circumstances allow it to progress (single/living alone).
Of all the drugs I've enjoyed, having alcohol as the one that caught me out is still truly weird.
>As soon as I get home the first thing I do is usually to grab a beer.
Well, knock that on the head and have a clean week of work days and see what happens. Can you sleep? How strong is the itch after a few days?
You're exactly where I was a few years ago. Slippery slope mate, honestly - I could've written that post of yours word for word, every box gets a tick. What you don't know is that the next step fucks your head up like you wouldn't believe when you try and stop it. You don't sound as though you feel like a prisoner in your own head yet, and believe me, you don't ever want to. "Stop now or forever hold your peace", >>4298 couldn't have said it better.
>Would you say you have underlying confidence, self-esteem or similar issues that you are using drinking as a crutch/anaesthetic for?
I was a nerdy kid at school but never horribly picked on, I have a loving and supportive family and I wasn't fucked up by anything nasty as a youngster. I can't point to anything that justifies alcoholism.
Cheers lads. I made that post for precisely those reasons; I can tell I might be on the edge of a very slippery slope. If you chaps are saying I should calm down a bit, you're probably right. I'll not be drinking tonight, I have music to be working on anyway so I brewed up a big pot of coffee when I got in.
But that's just the thing, as long as I'm occuppied with something else, I'm fine. All day at work I barely think about drinking, unless it's a particularly stressful day. It's just whenever I'm left with free time and nothing to distract me, I'd rather have some alcohol in my bloodstream to make it more enjoyable.
When do I need to be worried that this will intensify, and start affecting my day to day life as well?
>When do I need to be worried that this will intensify, and start affecting my day to day life as well?
Define "affecting your life" - it's a dangerously vague construct. The drink is affecting you right now (you wake up with a hangover and aren't as alert at work as you could be, it's probably damaging your liver, if it's beer then you're almost certainly putting on weight albeit slowly, etc) but you think it's ok. Your definition of "ok" shifts as the addiction gets stronger.
My advice, since you're obviously not going teetotal and realistically you're unlikely to quit drinking in the week altogether, would be to make a rule never to drink consecutive nights (possible exception made at the weekend depending on your social life - basically, no consecutive drinking-alone nights). I reckon that should be a maintainable balance between "I like a drink" and "I'm an alchy", but I had that idea many moons ago and obviously it didn't work out for me. It really is the consecutive drinking that fucks you, though (both mentally and physically).
>>4304 The good news is that you're worried. That means you're not thick in the head and you can see what's going on, but you may need some help realising it. What you're missing is the insight that the more you justify your drinking to yourself as OK, the more you lose control and, sadly, that's an insight far too many only get after it's too late because "that'll never happen to me".
For now, you're doing OK, but take >>4305 seriously. Never, ever, under any circumstances, drink on your own on two consecutive nights. I know I sound like a sourpuss, but that stage of justifying to yourself that it's OK, it's just this once, it's not regular, right? That's where it starts going wrong.
But there's no one moment where it happens. It's not the first time you make the exception. Or the second, or the third. Or the fourth. It'll just transition at some point. It's when you move from "I wouldn't mind a pint or five" to "Of course I want a pint or five".
Try and make drinking a conscious choice, rather than a default one. And I mean conscious.
>>4312 Having passed out before midnight on new year's eve I decided to give kicking the habit another serious go. To go along with it I made a few more minor changes to my lifestyle: I now eat a light breakfast instead of starving until lunch and cook dinner rather than getting the same take-away day in and out. The first few days were as expected (horrid, sweaty, confused and irritable) and while the worst is over, sleep is still a problem. Apart from the constant vivid dreams and frequent nightmares about once a night I get caught in a maelstrom of despair. It seems to be getting slightly better, though, so in another few weeks… we'll see then.
Unsurprisingly, despite eating more I feel a bit hungry most of the time since now there're roughly 1000-1500kcal/day missing which booze used to provide, not to mention that booze fucks with one's blood sugar anyway (this might be a good point to also highlight another warning sign, by the way: waking up early after passing out, especially if it happens repeatedly. Alcohol can seriously drop your blood sugar which produces a panic response in your body to find some food).
So far so good, but now comes the real test: the weekend. I know I really, absolutely must not drink but every other fibre of my being is yearning for it. Monday can't come soon enough.
>>4370 >another warning sign, by the way: waking up early after passing out, especially if it happens repeatedly.
Noted. Only happened once or thrice but I'll keep an eye out. Cheers mate.
>>4481 Still dry (nearly a month now, woo), but it's getting harder. I'll start with the good news, though: sleeping is nearly back to normal now. I still have some trouble getting to sleep, but no longer wake up randomly and (provided I got enough sleep) actually feel somewhat refreshed in the morning. The constant desire to get pissed is gone but has been replaced by brush fires which flare up every now and then when something triggers them. I'm learning to recognise and deal with the ways I'd try to justify drinking ("Just the one", "But it's a special occasion", "It'll only be tonight", "You've been sober X days, it's under control so where's the harm" etc.). Again, so far so good.
The biggest problem at the moment is a bit of an odd one which I'd not heard of before and which thus hit me a bit unexpectedly: my mind's really starting to clear up and I was (and to a large extent still am) somewhat unprepared for that. While I was boozing it was easy to just plod along and ignore the vast majority of what was going around me, but now those comforting blinders are gone and it's putting me on edge. Some of the time it's not so bad, but near daily there are a few hours particularly towards the evening where it kicks into full gear and feels like I'm going a bit nuts. Everything seems bizarre, all these systems and networks everywhere, and my mind seems to be unable to just drop a subject once it's latched on to something. If this doesn't go away in a week or two I'll have to do something about it; so far, I'm considering either joining a gym so I have somewhere to go to keep busy or learning to meditate.
Another less psychedelic and rather more mundane problem is plain old boredom. Keeping myself busy is becoming a bit of a problem (my current circumstances aren't exactly conducive to starting a new hobby). I try and read a lot, but since I still can't concentrate too well for long periods that doesn't always work, there aren't any computer games which really captivate me at the moment and most movies don't really grab me any more either. If that doesn't improve by itself, the plan is to learn knitting as a kind of occupational therapy.
That out of the way, on to some practical aspects. I bought a small ring which I wear as a physical reminder to myself which, childish and superstitious though it feels, helps. "Don't have a first drink, then you won't have a tenth" as a phrase also helps. There is no booze in the house and when I go shopping I take the cash I need and leave cards behind so I can't just pick up a bottle on a whim.
Overall, I'm doing better than I'd hoped, but I have no illusions about the struggle still ahead. I fear that the more sobriety becomes routine rather than a novel thing the bigger the temptation to give up will get.
Concerned borderline alco ladm8 here. I've managed to cut back to sensible weekend and/or day off sessions, and it's really helping that I'm quite skint at the moment.
>>4484 I've had the same mind-on-acid thing with cold turkey weed withdrawals. For me, it was always back to normal within 3 days.
I'd definitely recommend daily exercise, but as for meditation, you don't need to "learn", all you need to do is say "meh" every time the thoughts are too much. Like you find your mind racing and coming up with all sorts of ideas and conclusions (the most dangerous type of thought) then just say "Meh." and mentally stop till the thoughts clear.
>>4487 > I've managed to cut back to sensible weekend and/or day off sessions, and it's really helping that I'm quite skint at the moment.
That's great and might be your first step in the right direction. However… there's no way of saying this without sounding like a projecting, condescending and holier-than-though dickhead, but I'll do it anyway: keep an eye on that. If you've identified that you have a problem with alcohol then those periods of moderating your intake have a tendency to become cyclical. You'll tone it down for a while, feel in charge and then drift back into problem drinking as you find more and more situations where it seems acceptable for you to drink. I know, I'm a party pooper, but having been in that situation myself a few times it's ringing a few alarm bells; do what you think is right for yourself, though. You know your own situation best.
>>4488 It about 2 1/2 weeks in and hasn't gone away yet. Meditation will take some learning (or practice, at least); just willing it to calm down doesn't seem to work.
>>4489 Still sober. Some things have improved, some new problems have cropped up (I'll write a longer post with details if there's interest), but how are the other alcoholics here doing? I don't want to turn this into an AA board or rain on anyone's parade but we haven't had any posts from anyone (including OP, are you still around?) about this recently, so I thought I'd try and get the conversation going again.
By all means talk about it lad. We're all nosey for a start, but we're here for advice too.
Things are going well for me as of late. I've managed to completely cut out my routine of getting home from work and drinking until I fall asleep, thanks to the attentions of a very special female. Regrettably it's somewhat long distance at the moment, but I think our plans to scrape up a future together have given me what I was missing before- that being a definite purpose and a goal. I think before, I drank sheerly to stop myself getting wrapped up in thoughts of how aimless my life seems to be; or more accurately, uncertain about acheiving the aims I DID have.
It's not all smooth going, but trying to focus on the positives. Wierdly I find myself really wishing I knew reliable people to buy weed off nowadays. At least when I craved alcohol I knew where to GET some.
The past few weeks have been very clean, with small amounts of booze on the weekend, and only with friends, never alone. It pleased me to discover that I can actually fall asleep without any alcohol in my system. Who would've thought, eh?
That said I'm having a mental fight right now about whether to start drinking the leftover beers in the fridge and fuck off my engagements tomorrow.
I'm having my 20th beer of the weekend right now, I've lost count to be honest. I've posted all my favourite tunes on face book and now I'm here typing bollocks into a computer.
>>4676 I'm not sure I'm in a position to give advice; the process will be different for everyone and since this is only day 70 of my sobriety (albeit after years and years of addiction) I'm hardly an expert. I failed a few times in the past (and posted in this thread a few times prior to >>4370) but somehow this time is and feels different though the biggest disappointment in some ways is that I'm still not sure why. More on that later. If someone has specific questions, though, I'll be happy to answer to the best of my ability. I shouldn't have left it this late to reply as I'm a bit tired but I'll try and keep it structured: Mental, physical, and overall.
Mental This has seen the biggest improvements but also has the biggest on going problems. On the positive side, my short term memory has improved quite a lot. I still get the odd moment where I have no idea what I was trying to do or what I was looking for one moment to the next, but it's becoming less and approaching a level that's probably normal. Long term memory is also getting better, as is concentration. For example, I can read a few dozen pages in one sitting now without completely forgetting where I started and without my head feeling like it's filled with mushy peas. The "mind on acid" problem hasn't gone away as such, but it's changed markedly and is now more of a general sense of wonder at the world. This is coupled with growing anger at myself, however, at how ignorant I am in many respects and how many years I've wasted focussing inwards — only on booze — instead of the world around me. All the years I could've spent learning more, experiencing more… but what's done is done (or so I tell myself) so I'd better focus my energy on making up for lost time instead of beating myself up about it.
Boredom, on the other hand, hasn't gone away and is proving trickier to deal with than anticipated as I developed something best described as a mild case of anhedonia. Anticipation in particular seems to be gone: often it feels like there's nothing I'd actually want to do even given the opportunity. I started going to comedy shows a once or twice a week (one of the perks of living in London… there's always something on) to get out of the house and to keep me entertained which helps, but I'll need more than that going forward.
The biggest problem at the moment, though, is something which it's difficult to talk about without coming across as a complete nutter. About once or twice a day I get episodes, seemingly without any particular trigger, where my mind detaches from reality and I sink into a violent fantasy of hurting someone. It's no one in particular and, in the fantasy, in response to a perceived wrong but it gets quite detailed and graphic. That wouldn't be so much of a problem as they only last about 20 seconds, but as mentioned I detach from reality while it goes on. Eyes close, teeth get clenched and I lose track of what's around me. A recent example would be walking down a "cross aisle" (do they have a name?) in a super market, an episode happened and when I surfaced again I'd walked the rest of the way down to the end of the shop with no recollection of doing so. Just to make it clear: I'm not a violent person and when dealing with people none of this comes through, but it's equal parts scary and inconvenient none the less.
Physical I've lost nearly a stone in weight, mostly from my belly. A pair of jeans I couldn't comfortably fit into before now fits and I can close my belt an extra notch (nearly two) without trouble. If that levels off soon then that's good news, but much more and I need to really look into fixing my diet. Speaking of which, my diet's got worse again. I have a light breakfast (which good), lunch is much the same as ever but dinner has fallen apart, no small thanks to above mentioned anhedonia. Eating in the evening is becoming a chore as there's nothing I really want to eat despite being hungry. I can afford to eat pretty much whatever I'd want thanks to the money I'm saving on not buying booze but really can't be bothered. Generally, I either end up eating something dead easy (a tin of beans with a bit of pork chucked in eaten with a bit of bread is my current stand by), pre-made pizza or very occasionally some variation of pasta red. While I was drinking I'd usually just head to a near by take-away and grab something there which I'm purposely avoiding now, so it's not too much of a surprise that I'm struggling to get into a decent habit.
Despite that, I'm physically stronger. I commute by bicycle and shaved the run from 15-20 minutes to consistently 10-15 minutes without doing anything special and I no longer get as easily winded when climbing flights of stairs. It shows in a myriad other day to day tasks as well, from lugging laundry to the laundrette to carrying shopping home.
Sleep is a bit out of whack again, unfortunately. On the plus side I falling asleep isn't much of a problem and sleeping itself is restful and all that, but getting to bed at night is a bit of a problem as I don't feel tired. The solution there is probably to just work on a better rhythm and to put my foot down and stick to it.
Perhaps coincidentally, though, some skin issues have cropped up, namely crusty weeping skin behind my ears (I get enough vitamins for that not to be scurvy) and around my nose. The less said about that the better.
Overall All in all I'm happy with the progress so far although there's still much to do. I had a few dreams about drinking (which is normal, apparently) but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't frequently tempted. There's an odd dichotomy going in my brain when I read bits in a book about drinking or otherwise hear about it where it sounds and feels like a really good idea on one level while on another I know with absolute certainty how it would end how it would make me feel the next morning. It probably won't go away any time soon, but it's not getting any harder just yet so there's some good news.
I spent enough weekends sober now to put a chink into the old habits so they no longer feel like a scary, nigh-insurmountable challenge. It's still the toughest time of the week, though, in particular Saturday nights and Sunday when there's little else to do.
One thing that's really starting to gnaw on me now, though, is that I'm uncertain why this time is different. It was easy to feel excited and heroic when I started, but that happened many times before; I really can't pin point what made me stick to it this time which annoys me. I use the excuse of a new years resolution when people ask, but that's really not it and true, that new years was a particularly low point but other instances prior to that were equally bad without that effect. I may have to just accept that it was "time", as unsatisfying as that feels in many ways.
>>4681 Thanks, anonymous posts like yours actually help a lot (which is as sad as it sounds). One continuous source of encouragement in the past actually actually was a certain web forum (it has nicknames, but might as well be anonymous); realistically, it's just an enormous circle jerk, but having that well of positive feedback available when needed was quite reassuring. I've kind of outgrown the community there now, but it set me on the right path.
>>4680 Genuinely interesting post. I think it's unusual for people to lose weight when giving up booze, isn't it? Certainly my dad piled on a few pounds after he went through it.
I would've thought it makes sense. The term "beer gut" exists for a reason, putting on weight is for giving up smoking I thought.
That's an entirely different hurdle though. Despite knowing it's less healthy I'm nowhere near ready to give THAT up despite drastically cutting back the booze.
No worries lad. This thread is actually one of the best on here I reckon, it's great to see everyone helping each other out. Keep it up mate, you're an inspiration.
>>4691 >I would've thought it makes sense. The term "beer gut" exists for a reason, putting on weight is for giving up smoking I thought.
It is, but I was thinking more that people who successfully quit tend to replace alcohol with other rewards (chocolate etc).
On a slightly similar note, I am experiencing the beginnings of amphetamine psychosis. Disassociation and other peculiar things (mild OEVs, paranoia, etc). It's not terribly pleasant. I've been taking the stuff 3 or 4 days a week to help me be awake for work. In the recent weeks where I'd run out, apart from sleeping a lot I've actually been a great deal more productive.
I've almost run out of the stuff any have no immediate sources for more, I'll be ok. I flushed 95% of my stash some time ago to avoid developing real problems.
>>4693 Better knock that on the head right now lad.
Calm down, try and get good amounts of sleep each night >8 hours, treat yourself to some nice food and just try and relax as much as possible. If you need to, go and see your doctor and ask if you can get some time off work. Your health is far more important than any job and everyone will recognise this.
Thanks, but I really don't think it's going to be a lasting problem. I'm managing to sleep okay, only dosing on work days and in the mornings, with gradually smaller and smaller amounts. I estimate what I have left to be less than 1/4g.
Avoided tachycardia by a hairs breadth at the height of it, other than that the only problem is being generally less considerate of other's feelings and being a bit of an unpleasant prat. The other symptoms I can deal with.
I'm looking forward to being myself again.
Not convinceed I'm an alcoholic but people around me have started calling me one, If I am I'm pretty sure I'm a 'high fuctioning alcoholic' In that I seem to be perfectly capible of holding down my office job, and I am riddilously active socialy.
That said I get my days where I'm forcing myself through a day at work despite a horrific hang over (before as regularly as once/twice a week) to the level of going off to the toilet to vomit a couple of times a day and vommiting to the level of bringing up bile and the vomit regularly containing blood.
I have no idea what my current average per week is, it regularly fluctuates now days, I remember telling a doctor a few years ago it being on average being 70 units of alcohol per week, Ive certainly had over 100 units in a week before.
Despite this I don't think I'm mentally addicted to alcohol, but more a compulsion to not be sobre, I have gone a year before quite comfortably without alcohol when I was on medication, although I ended up drinking minimum of 8 cans of red bull a day instead, although part of that was because my medication was a strong tranquilieser and it kept me from constantly feeling fatigued.
I think if anything my issue is that I'm a hedonist. I feel like my death impending and have to live life to the fullist and most active life I possibly can, and part of that is going out as regularly as I can and having the fullist nights I can, which involves drinking. I rarely drink alone. I didn't actually realise just how active I am until I had the flu recently and I had to observe just how much stuff I had to cancel on in what I would have called a pretty average week.
>>4782 >riddilously active socialy.
>I rarely drink alone.
Most alcoholics start out like this.
>'high fuctioning alcoholic' In that I seem to be perfectly capible of holding down my office job
And this.
>more a compulsion to not be sobre
So like...an addiction to not being sober?
>to the level of going off to the toilet to vomit a couple of times a day and vommiting to the level of bringing up bile and the vomit regularly containing blood.
Mate. Your organs are clearly not coping. If you're genuinely okay with the damage you're doing to yourself then fine, it's your body, but the fact that you're trying to justify your behaviour on here means that somewhere the idea that you have a problem with alcohol is probably niggling you. Your lifestyle isn't what I'd call normal in regards to alcohol consumption. If a friend told me they'd been vomiting blood and going to work hungover as often as you, I'd be worried.
If you want to call it that for dramatic effect, yeah. Probably comes from a desire not to be alone with my thoughts, when left to my own devices I spiral into major depression, quite frankly going out and doing things constantly even with the drawbacks from alcohol feels much more healthy.
>The fact that you're trying to justify your behaviour on here means that somewhere the idea that you have a problem with alcohol is probably niggling you.
Thats seems like a false choice, either I admit I'm an alcoholic or I'm in denile about it.
I'm not going to lie, I wouldn't have bothered posting if I didn't have concerns. The vommit containing blood makes me uncomfortable, and I've been trying to explore ways of making myself not get that hungover when I drink.
>>4785 >I've been trying to explore ways of making myself not get that hungover when I drink.
Outside of the obvious "drink less", drink several pints of water before bed with a couple of aspirins. You will not believe the difference this makes in the morning.
>>4785 I'm not sure how old you are, but that will have an impact how well you can cope with your current lifestyle; just keep in mind that once you're past 25 or so your body becomes less capable and less capable to just take the kind of punishment your meting out to it. That's not meant to be scaremongering, just a possible explanation for why some of your problems like the puking might be getting worse over time.
> Probably comes from a desire not to be alone with my thoughts, when left to my own devices I spiral into major depression, quite frankly going out and doing things constantly even with the drawbacks from alcohol feels much more healthy.
A friend of mine, a (currently) ex-heavy drinker had much the same problem; long history of major depression (nearly bedridden at times because of it) and he combated it by forcing himself to be in company and drinking a lot (that's a very brief summary of the overall behaviour). Long story short, it took a few years of therapy to get his depression under control and the alcohol dependence went along with it. If you're using alcohol to self-medicate the problem, you may want to seriously consider seeking other help… it'll be healthier in the long run.
> I've been trying to explore ways of making myself not get that hungover when I drink.
Getting that hung over is a good sign in some ways. With full-blown "functional" (i.e. externally regulated) alcoholism you eventually settle into a balanced rhythm where you're just sort of miserable all the time. Beyond the advice above (water and aspirin) make sure you've got your B and K vitamins covered as well as potassium. Beyond that you need to learn to not overshoot your level of drunk: it takes a little time before alcohol you drink kicks in properly but many budding alcoholics do not take that into account properly. That's something which you learn through a lot of experience1, though whether that's something you want to learn…
(1I'm the ex-alkie who posted a few times above… for the last few years of my drinking I basically didn't get hungover any more because I'd nailed the amounts I'd need to drink)
> Thats seems like a false choice, either I admit I'm an alcoholic or I'm in denile about it.
Yep, that's one of those catch-22 problems which it is rather irritating to deal with. It comes up whenever you deal with alcoholism, so don't let that get you down… just keep in mind that it's based on a lot of experience by folks like the AA and similar organisations: when someone starts questioning how much they drink, identifies that it's probably no healthy and then continues to drink as before anyway then there usually is a problem. Whether alcohol is the cause or a symptom of that problem is another matter, of course.
>you may want to seriously consider seeking other help… it'll be healthier in the long run.
I gave therapy a fair shot and it didn't seem to work for me
Was taught CBT I wasn't conviced, it seemed concerned with putting a possitive spin on everything rather than dealing with the truth of the situation, and I can't get behind that logic, sometimes things are just shitty and it has nothing to do with your outlook, or trying to find the positive edge doesn't really help the situation.
Equally have been on SSRIs and Mirtazapine. SSRIs didn't seem to do much for me apart from permanently rob me of my abblity to feel orgasums and emotional attachment to my enviroment, I knew that was a risk at the time so I accept that.
Mirtazapine definately helped mentally but I got really bad physical side effects that I don't really want to endure again, the best way of discribing it is it was like the day after you've done too much exercise and all your muscels hurt.
I wouldn't say I self medicate with drinking, if I know I'm feeling shitty I avoid drink, part of that is experiance and knowing that in the past it didn't help at all to drink alone if anything it was a way for me to encourage myself to feel shit, I'd say I self medicate by forcing myself to go out and be active so i'm distracted and that involves being in the enviroments where I drink. If you removed the drink from the days where I've been hung over at work I would still probably be physically exhaughsted, I think I would probably find my life a boring depressing experiance without going out regularly midweek.
>folks like the AA
The 12 step program bugs me a lot, it reads to me like a cult indoctrination exercise, I don't really care about what their twisted opinion is on anything.
>>4792 > The 12 step program bugs me a lot
Don't get spotting a problem confused with treating it; I'm no fan of the AA either (there's a reason I didn't use them) but they do get a few things right (the 12 step program being one of the things they don't, in my view).
Either way, you know yourself better than I do, so it's up to you to decide where the problem is. I'm happy to prattle on about what you might want to look out for but ultimately if you decide drinking is not the problem then nothing I or anyone else says will change that.
Not posted in this thread before ( that my poor mind can remember) but I did manage to kick the sauce a couple of months ago due to a terrible fever and sickness, for which the antibiotics were prescribed to treat gave me such a sense of peace that I almost didn't need booze to sleep. Amazing.
But here I am again, only 3 months later, drinking more than ever, 5kg regained (purely in beer, I imagine).
>>5047 Seven months and counting, but fuck me sideways if it isn't getting harder every day. I was warned about this but I didn't quite realise it'd be this insidious: the more comfortable I get not drinking, the more I seemingly try and convince myself that I can safely start drinking again. I'm more or less resigned to the fact that come the one year sobriety anniversary I'll get pished (and probably stuck again)… if I even make it that far.
>>5126 It's not a good sign and, if in doubt, get thee to thine GP to have it checked out. They may advise you to drink less but they will at least have a look regardless.
Failing that, get some vitamin supplements (especially A and E, though an extra shot of D, B1 and B12 doesn't hurt either). Alcohol messes around with how effectively you absorb certain nutrients so making sure they're in sufficient supply is a sensible thing to do — no need to go nuts, though, stick to the "one a day" or whatever guideline that's on the box.
I'm kind of worried i'm turning into too much of a lifestyle drinker. I work in a pub right, so I drink after every shift, and then if I'm not at work, I come in and have a few beers in the evening anyway. I'm not on the same level as you lads doing litres of spirits a day, and to be honest I'm more worried about getting fat than getting liver disease, but still. I feel incomplete and restless without at least 3 drinks before bed. Trouble is, I have a mate who is similar, but he's up to drinking like 8 strong polish beers every night, and I don't wanna be doing that day in day out out of compulsion rather than enjoyment. I guess it's the constant nature of the habit that worries me rather than the amount consumed in each sitting. I'm druink now, hence this post. Had 4 pints of fuller's ESB - man if you don't know about that stuff then shit, don't even call yourself a beer drinker - it's some fucking evil witches brew I tell you. It's only 5.5%abv, but 3 pints fucks you up, properly. I've had beers claiming to be 8%+ that have affected me far less. Seriously, next time you find a pub serving ESB, see how many pints it takes to hit you. Unless you're some alcoholic behemoth, you'll finish your second and be like "fuuuuuck, I'm feeling that already"
Something weird has just happened to me that suddenly and very sharply brought my drinking into focus after not really worrying about it since my last ultrasound over a year ago.
I went to my local off-licence, as usual, picked up my daily ration of lager, as usual, and as I was paying the new girl behind the counter turned around to ask her boss how much a 12-pack of my beer was. He said "Oh. To him it's 10 pounds." I don't know how long this has been going on or how much by, but apparently I am such a reliable customer at the place that I have been getting some sort of discount and I wasn't even aware of it. Occassionaly I buy a bottle of rum and they give me a discount on that but I thought that was just because I bought it so rarely that the profit they made on my beer was covering it.
I was thinking that it's probably only about 50p per sixpack or something but do I really drink that much that it's worth keeping me sweet? But then I started thinking that if I've bought 12 cans in there almost everyday for the past 7 years at a tenner a pop that works out at more than 25grand.
Then I started thinking that if I had put that money to one side instead of drinking it I could buy... but the only thing I could think of was large amounts of alcohol. And then it hit me, I don't want or need anything because I have alcohol. It was a little bit sad.
I always thought that, because I don't drink spirits (or even wine) habitually, I could never be an alcoholic but now I'm not so sure.
>>5126 Are they very dull twinges and not "painful" in the traditional sense? If so you get used to them after a while and my doctor didn't seem overly concerned about them when I told him.
>>5177 >Had 4 pints of fuller's ESB - man if you don't know about that stuff then shit, don't even call yourself a beer drinker
I'm glad this is universal, after 4 pints I'm weaving down the road, whereas I can happily knock back a dozen lesser lagers and not feel a thing. Plus it tastes fucking delicious!
>I always thought that, because I don't drink spirits (or even wine) habitually, I could never be an alcoholic but now I'm not so sure.
I've never really understood this mentality. I remember a mate of mine got all concerned once because he saw a bottle of whisky in the bin. At the time he was drinking at least four pints a night, usually a lot more.
If you are drinking every night, and can't not drink every night, you're an alcoholic. It doesn't matter if you're drinking neat Everclear or tossing back pisswater lager; in some respects it's worse if you're the latter, because at least the spirits drinker can't be in denial about the nature of their consumption.
If you're drinking 12 cans a night, every night, you are unquestionably an alcoholic. Do the percentage conversion:
4% of 12x500ml of shit lager = 240ml of alcohol
38% of 700ml of Smirnoff = 266ml of alcohol
That's fuck all difference. More to the point, drinking that amount will almost certainly be causing you damage.
>>5188 My lager of choice is 5% not 4. That means that I actually drink MORE on a normal night than on nights when I "smash it" and get rum instead of beer. I had never done the maths before but now I suddenly realise how completely and totally fucked I am. I seriously want to thank you because you have probably just saved my life, assuming I can quit.
My next question is obvious. Is there any drug, legal or extralegal, that does the same thing as alcohol but is not bad for the liver? I'm looking for a dissociative/depressant with a half-life of 3 hours or more and side-effects that do not manifest until the next morning that can be easily obtained and does not need to be snorted or injected also it must cost £20 or less for a fun evening of heavy consumption. What is it?
The other one to watch out for is larger cans. An 8-pack of most export lagers is usually 8x440ml = 3520ml. By comparison a Stella "La Grande Bier" or whatever it is, the pint can, is 568ml. 8 cans of that is 4544ml, which is a pretty substantial difference.
>My next question is obvious. Is there any drug, legal or extralegal, that does the same thing as alcohol but is not bad for the liver?
Nothing that gets you blotto comes without a price.
>>5207 I looked into it but apparently I've just missed the boat on gbl being easily obtainable from any DIY place. I'll still give it a shot but I'm kicking myself because I was definitely already in trouble with the booze before it was banned. I'm worried about buying/trying to buy it because, while I have an open mind, I'm worried that I would be assumed a date-rapist by others if I was looking for it but maybe I'm just overly worried about what other people think.
Having said that, my grandad, who was a local celebrity on account of his homebrewing, drank like a fish even after having two strokes and being diabetic, died peacefully in his sleep this morning at the age of 88 so maybe I won't give up the drink just yet. I'm toasting him anyway and see no reason to stop toasting him every single night for the next 40 years. I obviously have good genes.
He had this poem or some variant of it on a decorative plate in his kitchen since before I can remember:
The horse and mule live 30 years
And never knows of wines and beers
The goat and sheep at 20 die
Without a taste of scotch or rye.
The cow drinks water by the ton
And at 18 is mostly done.
The dog at 15 cashes in
Without the aid of rum or gin.
The modest, sober, bone-dry hen
Lays eggs for nogs and dies at 10.
But sinful, ginful, rum-soaked men
Survive three-score years and 10.
And some of us, though mighty few
Stay pickled 'til we're 92.
(he was only four years short which is quite good going).
Not to dick around with you right now, but give booze to those animals every day and see how long they last. Saying your drinking isn't a problem because your granddad survived to 88 is like saying that asbestos isn't a problem because his loft was full of it. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, eh? Go take a lungful of those microfibres and see. Chances are - not really. Yes, you may survive anyway, but that doesn't mean that what you are doing is healthy, and expecting your genes to protect you is daft and also missing the point: alcoholism is a problem because it makes life a miserable drudge, and robs you of all motivation and the interesting things you could be doing instead. Don't spend your days inside knocking back 12 cans of export strength lager a night, mate. No good will come of it.
>alcoholism is a problem FOR ME because it makes life a miserable drudge, and robs you of all motivation and the interesting things you could be doing instead.
I made a small but, I feel, important correction to your sentence.
Some people are happy slowly turning their livers into foie gras. We're here to support those who are trying to change, not judge those who live hedonistically.
>>5229 I hear what you're saying, but the counterpoint is: find me a person who drinks a litre of vodka (or more) a day and is happy. You're right in that this is relative, we all have different limits and tolerances; some people have smack as their Sunday comedown for a decade and then drop it without thought when their life changes, others are hooked after the first encounter and it ruins their life. It's fair to say that most people who drink substantially and every day end up feeling pretty miserable, anyway - this isn't about my assumptions or judgements, it's a simple statement of fact. There will be exceptions, but they don't change my advice.
>>5231 You haven't said what it is that you drink 50-60cl of a day. Anyway, I think my post was pretty clear. If you're the exception then congratulations, and I have no quarrel with you either way.
>find me a person who drinks a litre of vodka (or more) a day and is happy.
>I drink 50-60cl daily
I thought it was quite clear that I meant vodka.
>If you're the exception then congratulations, and I have no quarrel with you either way.
That's fine and I feel the same way, but I've just invalidated your counterpoint. You're right we all have different limits and tolerances, but unless you can cite studies and evidence to support your assertion that "most people who drink substantially and every day end up feeling pretty miserable" I think you should stick to what >>5229 said and offer your advice and support to those who are trying to change.
>>5235 >unless you can cite studies and evidence
I don't doubt that there are studies that address the degenerative effects on the brain of chronic alcohol consumption, but if I found them, would you really read them? Well, either way, knock yourself out:
Let us all demand papers, of sufficient peer-reviewed academic rigour, to justify even the most obvious statements.
No, my evidence is circumstantial and wholly subjective, based on my own experiences and those of the many others around me who have drunk alcohol to various extents. Disagree as is your prerogative, but as a statement I absolutely stand by what you quoted. If you're drinking 50cl of vodka or more every day and are happy that's great and it's your life; we'll see where you are in another decade.
>I think you should stick to what >>5229 said and offer your advice and support to those who are trying to change.
I don't see how saying "I drink lots and I'M FINE!" is in any way advice or support to those who are trying to change.
>but if I found them, would you really read them?
Yes, I would. Half of those links aren't relevant.
Your search criteria are poorly defined too, we're not arguing about degenerative effects of chronic alcohol consumption on cognitive function, we're arguing about happiness.
>to justify even the most obvious statements.
Remember when it was obvious that the Earth was the centre of the universe?
>I don't see how saying "I drink lots and I'M FINE!" is in any way advice or support to those who are trying to change.
I never said I was trying to help people, I'm just here to tell you to mind your own business unless people ask for your help.
Look at your quote
>alcoholism is a problem because it makes life a miserable drudge, and robs you of all motivation and the interesting things you could be doing instead.
And now look at >>5229's amended version
>alcoholism is a problem FOR ME because it makes life a miserable drudge, and robs you of all motivation and the interesting things you could be doing instead.
Do you honestly not see the difference there? In the first one, you're preaching from your soapbox about how every alcoholic is wrong, and in the second you're offering your own subjective opinion on this very sensitive issue.
You then go on to say there are no happy alcoholics, which I pop up to dispute, then you say you didn't mean that there are NO happy alcoholics, but the MAJORITY aren't happy.
That's why I'm asking for a published work supporting you, not because I'm a pedantic uppity twat, (I am, but that doesn't matter) but because you're trying to crowbar your opinion into this thread with no regard for its validity.
In my opinion, not that it really matters, most alcoholics are happy as long as they can afford it, handle it, and enjoy the feeling.
Alcoholics who can't afford it usually don't last long before they end up in jail, the ones who can't handle it end up in hospital and the ones who don't like it stop doing it.
>most alcoholics are happy as long as they can afford it, handle it, and enjoy the feeling.
>the ones who don't like it stop doing it.
That is the most stunningly naive thing I've read on this board since its inception. Yes, the addicts tired of living a miserable life just... stop! The rest carry on having a great time.
