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|>>|| No. 18042
Shamima Begum: Bring me home, says Bethnal Green girl who left to join Isis
On the day the caliphate suffered a mortal blow the teenage London bride of an Islamic State fighter lifted her veil. Her two infant children were dead; her husband in captivity. Nineteen years old, nine months pregnant, weak and exhausted from her escape across the desert, she nevertheless looked calm and spoke with a collected voice.
“I’m not the same silly little 15-year-old schoolgirl who ran away from Bethnal Green four years ago,” she told me. “And I don’t regret coming here.”
With those words and the act of lifting her niqab, a mystery ended. The girl sitting before me, alone in a teeming Syrian refugee camp of 39,000 people where she is registered as No 28850, was Shamima Begum, the only known survivor of the three schoolgirls from Bethnal Green Academy whose fate has been unknown at home since they fled Britain together in 2015 to join Islamic State.
Ms Begum may have reached comparative safety, yet she chastised herself for leaving the last Isis territory as Kurd forces, backed by the West, closed in.
“I was weak,” she told me of her flight from the battle in Baghuz, with something akin to remorse. “I could not endure the suffering and hardship that staying on the battlefield involved. But I was also frightened that the child I am about to give birth to would die like my other children if I stayed on. So I fled the caliphate. Now all I want to do is come home to Britain.”
Should someone who quite clearly doesn't regret going to join ISIS and is still sympathetic to their plight be allowed back in this country? Then again, she'd already been 'radicalised' by those closest to her in this country.
|>>|| No. 18043
May as well. Teenagers do dumb shit and she'll be a magnet for any other radicals so if she's kept an eye on they'll be easier to spot.
|>>|| No. 18044
I think so. If we're just going to flout our own laws the same way she did whenever it makes us uncomfortable, what's the point? I know there's a lot to this case and it's obviously not that straight forward, but I've destested the idea that once someone's sworn themselves to ISIS they "aren't our problem anymore". That's just idiotic and cowardly as far as I'm concerned. If she's broken any laws prosecute and if she hasn't, keep an eye on her. There may be other reasons for why she's still speaking favourably of ISIS; I assume they don't look too fondly on people who defect, and given that she's still in Syria she might not want to start slaggging them off too vociferously before she's out. That's purely speculation, mind you, and she might be totally off-the-reservation. I'm uncomfortable about comdemming someone for something they did when they were 15 also, and while this is much more serious than pinching a bike or smoking a joint on school grounds, fuck knows what she's seen beyond just losing two kids. I burst into tears during my English GCSE, and there was nary a JDAM in sight.
She's also a pregnant 19 year old, and while I'm unsure on the details, I'm fairly certain that kid's going to be a UK citizen once it's born too.
|>>|| No. 18045
As said, I can't really feel too hostile towards someone who made a questionable decision at 15. Me and my mates were making pipe bombs and exploding bottles and stuff at that age - actual crimes committed on british soil. We weren't doing it in the name of a holy war, sure, but it's still likely a lot more prosecutable than running off to get fucked by ISIS lads for a few years, so I won't be the one throwing the first stone here.
|>>|| No. 18046
You may remember Georgia Davies, dubbed Britain's Fattest Teenager. Apparently there's a sex tape of her.
Now Georgia was primarily gargantuan due to her parents. At one point she was sent to a fat camp in America where she lost a lot of weight, however the moment she went back home she put it all back on because her parents wouldn't cook healthy meals and instead would regularly have chippy and takeaway.
The Bethnall Green schoolgirls were brainwashed by those closest to them. There is footage of family members holding burning flags at demonstrations by the likes of Anjem Choudary. If you put someone back in that environment they won't lose their warped views.
|>>|| No. 18047
>At one point she was sent to a fat camp in America where she lost a lot of weight, however the moment she went back home she put it all back on because her parents wouldn't cook healthy meals and instead would regularly have chippy and takeaway.
That's why good weight loss therapy also addresses and evaluates your overall eating habits and the whole culture of food in your household. Actually losing the weight is only half the battle, and is only the beginning of a healthier lifestlye. There needs to be some cognitive behavioural therapy as well.
Otherwise, evidently, you'll just end up a blob all over again.
>The Bethnall Green schoolgirls were brainwashed by those closest to them. There is footage of family members holding burning flags at demonstrations by the likes of Anjem Choudary.
You adopt almost all of your views and opinions in life through socialisation and association with the people around you who have certain views. And if for example you grow up in a family of religious radicals, eskimo, Christian, or whatever, it doesn't matter really, then there is a very good chance that you will grow up to share the same radical views and think nothing of it.
|>>|| No. 18050
You said that in the OP, OP. Do you have any evidence of this? And is it her third cousin at an anti-Iraq War demo 14 years ago? Or her mum last week? And what do you propose instead? Are you going to force her to live in Dundee or Londonderry?
You're big on problems but you don't seem to have any solutions, none that you're forthcoming with anyway.
|>>|| No. 18051
>The security minister, Ben Wallace, has said he would not put officials’ lives at risk to rescue UK citizens who went to Syria and Iraq to join Islamic State, insisting “actions have consequences”.
>“I’m not putting at risk British people’s lives to go looking for daft militant wogs or former daft militant wogs in a failed state,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.
>Wallace said that as a British citizen, Begum had a right to return home, but anyone who joined Isis should expect to be investigated, interviewed and “at the very least prosecuted” on their return. There are currently no British diplomats in Syria because of security risks. If Begum wanted to return to the UK, she would have “to make her way to Turkey or Iraq to consular services there”, he added.
>Questioned on whether the fact that Begum was 15 when she ran away might generate sympathy from the Home Office, Wallace said: “People know what they’re getting into. This is a daft militant wog group, one of the worst ever in the world, that butchers people and has been responsible for the deaths of dozens of British citizens.”
>Sir Peter Fahy, a former chief constable of Greater Manchester police, told Today: “The biggest challenge if she did come back will be how the police will keep her safe and how she wouldn’t be some sort of lightning rod for both Islamic and far-right extremists. If she still holds those views, that’s clearly going to be an enormous challenge and you can understand why the government is not particularly interested in facilitating her return.”
>Commenting on the wider issue of foreign fighters a Whitehall source said: “There are no easy answers. You do not just have foreign fighters – you have foreign fighters’ relatives, widows, spouses and of course children, and children who may not have any connection with British citizens. How are those children protected and looked after? It has not yet been fully worked through. This is all quite fresh and people are still working through what is the best thing to do. We cannot declare they are stateless, but we also said if they can be tried effectively where they are, that is good. There is no requirement for a British citizen to return to the UK if they can face justice where they are and the crimes were committed [there].
Can't really argue with that.
|>>|| No. 18052
It was quite well documented at the time. Shortly after the families were questioned by parliament, blaming everyone but themselves for the girls going to Syria, it emerged that one of the fathers had taken his daughter on Al-Muhajiroun demonstrations from the age of 13 and he was filmed at one with a burning flag and at others in the good company of Anjem Choudary and one of Lee Rigby's killers. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
The solution is simple. If she has commited crimes in Syria then she should be tried there.
|>>|| No. 18053
Joining ISIS, or any daft militant wog group, is an offense under the Terrorism Act (2000). If she makes it back to Britain via consular services she should be tried for that crime.
It's tragic because she's going to spend the next 40 years of her life in a concrete room the size of the average public toilet in a maximum security prison, but the law is the law.
|>>|| No. 18054
Why the fuck should we.?
I'd be on the fence if once here she'd at least be locked up for 20 years in solitary where she could lose the last of what could charitably be called her sanity, but she'd probably worm her way out of serious charges. Either way it's a needless drain on our resources. Let her rot in the bed she chose.
|>>|| No. 18055
Isn't there a limitation period in which to lay the charges? Don't we also have a general policy against charging 19 year olds with crimes committed when they were 15?
|>>|| No. 18056
There is no statute of limitations in English law, as we have seen with the recent wave of historical carpet-bagger convictions. Her age at the time of the offence would be taken into account at sentencing, as would any other mitigating factors.
|>>|| No. 18057
>it emerged that one of the fathers had taken his daughter on Al-Muhajiroun demonstrations from the age of 13 and he was filmed at one with a burning flag and at others in the good company of Anjem Choudary and one of Lee Rigby's killers.
None of these things are crimes. Especially not flag burning. Except perhaps environmentally, depending on what it was made from.
|>>|| No. 18058
AIUI, all offences start before magistrates, and serious ones are kicked upwards from there. There is a six-month limitation, but it doesn't necessarily start from the day on which the offence was committed. That's how the copper that did Ian Tomlinson in got away with it - the IPCC held onto the case for so long they couldn't charge him for it.
IIRC the TalkTalk kid was initially tried as a minor, but later tried as an adult for subsequent offences committed while on bail.
|>>|| No. 18060
I believe at the time Al-Muhajiroun were a banned organisation.
It's a bit besides the point whether going on their marches is against the law; if you take your daughter to this sort of events then it shouldn't be a massive surprise if she fucks off to Syria with some of her school chums further down the line.
|>>|| No. 18061
... right well I'm not sure why that's really relevant.
I guess she should have about the same protections as any British citizen does if they get caught breaking laws in other countries, which is to say not a lot. Not harbouring a grudge against her for what she did as a teenager but we don't generally go rescuing knobs who get the death penalty for public farting in North Korea, grievous gum chewing in Singapore or maliciously having a marijuana seed stuck to the soles of their shoes while entering Saudi Arabia. May not agree with the penalties in any of these cases but it's reasonable to say that's out of our hands.
|>>|| No. 18062
I don't want to be that lad who makes it all about the gender politics and what have you, but I feel like it's not beyond reason top compare her to any of the many lads who've been radicalised, i.e brainwashed, and gone to fight for ISIS. I don't see many people in favour of letting them back in.
Jecause she's a woman and "think of the children!" there must be some sort of other side to the coin obviously. She can't have been a rational actor because women are incapable of making decisions with consequences, while teenage lads clearly know exactly what they're in for.
She just sounds like she knew exactly what she was doing, and wants out because it turned out to have been shit. She doesn't regret it at all.
|>>|| No. 18063
There's definitely different narratives going on.
Young men who went to Syria are portrayed as losers and no-hopers who've gone because they have very little prospects in this country whereas young women are portrayed as idealists brainwashed into going on a fantasy adventure.
|>>|| No. 18064
>I guess she should have about the same protections as any British citizen does if they get caught breaking laws in other countries, which is to say not a lot.
She hasn't been caught breaking laws in other countries. It's British law that people say she's broken.
|>>|| No. 18065
Has she? I don't see any mention of it in the two articles posted. It's very unclear what the actual issues are here; what's being asked and denied and threatened.
What did we do with people who ran off to peel potatoes for the Nazis?
Not a bad point but it's fairly clear that young women who run off there don't typically become combatants. Whether or not we're being patronisingly sexist is moot given that.
|>>|| No. 18066
So what's the problem here? Obviously no one's going to risk lives over getting her back, and if she does come back she's going to prison. As people have said, she knows full well what she's done and isn't showing any regret.
|>>|| No. 18069
IS is a proscribed organisation, and being a member is illegal under the Terrorism Act 2000.
The old thing about "we can't get you out" from the PIFs was about people in foreign countries who have broken the laws of those countries while there.
|>>|| No. 18072
In fairness the whole thing is more complicated than it sounds. France 24 has more background on these refugee camps:
>One of the camp’s directors says that although some of the women claim to be innocent of any crime, others are clearly very dangerous. “We thought we could put them together with the Syrians and the Iraqis, and that they would adapt. But they’re ferocious, they burned some of the Syrians’ tents, they would call them cockroaches, infidels. They consider themselves as the only true eskimos. So we had to separate them,” he explains.
>“The problem is their intentions, they tell us what we want to hear, but we have no idea about what they really think. That’s a problem that must be addressed by experts. When they gave themselves up, some of them told us that the IS group briefed them, telling them, ‘Surrender, go back to your countries, get your strength back and we will start again’.”
I think she's a cunt who for all the upbringing and being a teenager (surely they cancel one-another?) can be expected to know that joining a group that actively perpetrates slavery and genocide is bad form. However, the way I see it she's our mess that the Kurds have been left to deal with on-top of everything else.
>You adopt almost all of your views and opinions in life through socialisation and association with the people around you who have certain views.
Almost. I think it is pretty questionable that you can lose culpability just because you grew up in a rubbish household. She openly talks about seeing severed heads in bins and the only remorse she feels is that ISIS didn't win - London is a toilet but let's not push it.
>I guess she should have about the same protections as any British citizen does if they get caught breaking laws in other countries, which is to say not a lot. Not harbouring a grudge against her for what she did as a teenager but we don't generally go rescuing knobs who get the death penalty for public farting in North Korea, grievous gum chewing in Singapore or maliciously having a marijuana seed stuck to the soles of their shoes while entering Saudi Arabia. May not agree with the penalties in any of these cases but it's reasonable to say that's out of our hands.
Actually Britain regularly tries to get its citizens out of the knick - it's a big part of the work consulates do. This is especially visible in cases of the death penalty whenever some idiot tries drug smuggling in the Far-East. It doesn't amount to any violations of sovereignty but there's certainly diplomatic pressure at work and legal help on hand.
At any rate, she hasn't to my knowledge been tried for anything yet and even if she was Kurdistan isn't a country and Syria would violate international law with her. The ECHR at least would, I imagine, audibly tut if she and her unborn child ended up tortured.
|>>|| No. 18073
>However, the way I see it she's our mess that the Kurds have been left to deal with on-top of everything else.
This is my main problem with just cutting these people loose, we're just abandoning our responsibilities so we can avoid the hassle, but the government act like they're doing it 'cus they're proper hard like. In reality they're just scared of headlines about "X Amount of Millions of Your Money Spent On Eskimo Black Widow Mega Death Ray From Mars!" from the Daily Mail. I dunno', the Romans never shied away from a good court case and they were one of the greatest civilisations to ever exist.
|>>|| No. 18075
>However, the way I see it she's our mess that the Kurds have been left to deal with on-top of everything else.
The Kurds remind me of the phrase "never was so much owed by so many to so few". I never cease to be amazed at the bravery and tenacity of the Kurdish people. The victory over IS belongs to them and we owe them whatever assistance we can possibly provide. Repatriating our radicalised youth to face trial is the least we can do.
|>>|| No. 18077
>I think it is pretty questionable that you can lose culpability just because you grew up in a rubbish household
I've read a bit more into her case. It sounds like the main triggers were her mother dying and also joining an all-female group named Islamic Forum of Europe via her igloo, who regularly espoused the virtues of ISIS, with the other two girls. Shortly after the latter they started wearing headscarves and calling non-eskimo classmates slags and kaffirs.
They played some of the interview audio on the News at Ten last night and there was something about her tone that made it evident she's still well under their spell.
|>>|| No. 18078
>something about her tone that made it evident she's still well under their spell.
So get her back here and put her into rehab for deprogramming like any other ex-cultist.
|>>|| No. 18079
I don't get why so many people hate Kurds. There must be a reason everyone in that region seems to hate them.
|>>|| No. 18081
ISIS have told people to pretend to be de-radicalised and start again back in their home countries.
|>>|| No. 18082
That's not how deprogramming works. You don't just get to declare yourself fixed and walk away.
|>>|| No. 18084
Kurdish-majority populations are spread across an area that encompasses Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. Being stuck in the middle of that lot is rather uncomfortable. They were supposed to get statehood after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, but they were done over by the Turks and weren't supported by the Western powers in establishing independence.
The Kurds have a significant non-eskimo minority and predominantly support secular liberalism, which hasn't exactly endeared them to their neighbours; the main group fighting for independence is the far-left Kurdistan Workers' Party, which doesn't win you many brownie points with the US. They're too small to maintain independence on their own, but they're too stubbornly independent to exist as a proxy state of a foreign superpower.
|>>|| No. 18085
If she had put a "cosh" in her pocket and went walking around looking for an excuse to murder a "black bastard" you'd all be insisting she was fine now and to get over it etc.
|>>|| No. 18086
True. What's your poinT? There'd be a great deal less issue if she had done that, instead of what she did do, which was join bloody ISIS.
Have a word with yourself.
|>>|| No. 18087
I believe most of that thread was talking about how mixed race lasses would get it rather than voicing opinions on what Liam Neeson said.
|>>|| No. 18088
I think Liam Neeson's impotent racism from 40 years ago is significantly more acceptable than a girl who joined IS only a few years ago, and who is unrepentant about getting involved with a genocidal cult.
|>>|| No. 18089
Sorry lads. I thought the cheek in my tongue would be more obvious than it apparently was. It's not an excuse or anything but I'm drunker than I've been for a good while and my idea of what is and isn't a good joke is kind of off-kilter. Forgive me please.
|>>|| No. 18090
Forgiven lad. Your joke was a just bit too close to the sort of thing our resident Grauniad columnists would actually post.
|>>|| No. 18092
Just let the YPJ deal with her, give her the same respect that ISIS gave to the Yazidis.
|>>|| No. 18093
Yeah, classic race to the bottom style ethics. Maybe we should rape the children of paedophiles and break the jaws of mugger's grandparents too?
|>>|| No. 18094
False equivalence. Your examples are innocent people. She joined and fully supported ISIS and their ideology.
|>>|| No. 18095
You're right. We shouldn't let her face justice in the country she's committed crimes on.
|>>|| No. 18125
Apparently she's given birth. Would the child be a UK citizen?
|>>|| No. 18131
If she can register it within 42 days, it gets a birth certificate and therefore probably is. Needs to get to her local town hall though, which might be an issue.
|>>|| No. 18135
AIUI, if the mother is a UK citizen in her own right, the child will be a UK citizen, but as he was born outside the UK it'll be inherited citizenship, not in his own right.
|>>|| No. 18139
If I saw someone taking the piss out of my son my first reaction would also be to screenshot it and share it with my 1.9 million followers.
|>>|| No. 18142
I think I would rather have Shamima Begum in this country than Katie Price. She is a fucking monster and a real disgrace to mothers/women everywhere. The fact that she is now exploiting her son in this way, to prop up her waning fame, disgusts me as much as the father who promoted the ideology that ended with his daughter going to Syria to join ISIS.
|>>|| No. 18143
It's much the same as an ordinary citizen giving birth abroad. Even if we were a country that didn't recognise dual citizenship, she has pledged allegiance to Isis but nobody recognised the caliphate and IL doesn't allow people to be rendered stateless (a reoccurring problem with people who left to join ISIS). I also highly doubt she has formally applied to revoke her British citizenship anyway.
Similarly, and if all else fails, the Home Secretary would be obligated to grant citizenship as the baby has done nothing to warrant being left stateless. It's a bother - she just had to join a cause instead of going to North Korea to save on the paperwork. Bet she still has the audacity to complain if you leave the seat up though.
|>>|| No. 18144
I'd also make sure I tagged him in the post, just in case he wasn't aware of it already.
|>>|| No. 18145
I can see some good arguments for this. I was in my final year of school when she became popular with I'm a Celebrity and being working class a few girls decided they were going to be 'glamour models'. Truly those were dark times where the nations young women were radicalised by non-jobism - quite unlike today where they're encouraged to become bakers and professional television watchers.
|>>|| No. 18148
I sort of miss the days when being a glamour model was a viable career choice for lasses; it's better than wanting to win the X Factor or whatever they want these days.
|>>|| No. 18157
81 big d nuts.jpg
Page 3 girl/booth babe/bird off the peanuts card. It used to be a thing back when Max Power and Zoo were still a thing. "Glamour" is largely a euphemism for "topless".
|>>|| No. 18158
It its own way, it is. A bit of a fancy word for being an attention whore who is reluctant to maintain or to go back to a proper job for a living, but doesn't want to show her boobs either. The end goal often being to land a lad who is higher up in the celebrity food chain. Somebody who wants to work her way up, but isn't quite enough of a nobody anymore to do Big Brother.
|>>|| No. 18160
> Is it a euphemism?
Yes it is - in the 80s and 90s where amateur photography was a nerd niche hobby (it took quite a lot of kit and knowledge to be able to take, and crucially, develop your own photographs well), glamour models were people who were willing to pose practically nude, but not actually do porn - because "I'm not that kind of girl" etc.
In those days, you used to take your films to places like Boots, and they would develop the films for you - therefore there were many types of photography that you just wouldn't do, for fear of the little lady at the chemist seeing your sub-jazzmag efforts with the girl next door. All that has changed. Photography has been completely democratised with the advent of digital cameras - you don't need to wait hours/days/weeks to see the photographs you make. Darkrooms are non-existent - in those days, you needed to be good at things like lighting and flash to take good photographs, and glamour modelling/photography was one particular genre of the hobby/art, as well as be content with waiting to see the results.
Glamour model/photography is short for porn, but not quite porn.
|>>|| No. 18161
>I think they just want to shack up with K-Pop stars now.
It's gotten to the point where I almost believe you. Aren't Korean dramas really popular now?
Jeongyeon is mine
|>>|| No. 18163
Well, I heard that's what teenage girls like listening to on a podcast I downloaded from Radio 4.
I'm only 24, how do I stop this!
|>>|| No. 18164
>Glamour model/photography is short for porn, but not quite porn.
Exactly. It definitely wasn't seedy; it isn't like newspapers used to have articles counting down the days until schoolgirls had their 16th birthday and could pose with their wabs out.
|>>|| No. 18168
I think the modern day equivalent of glamour model is Instagram model/cosplayer. Except instead of getting their pics on page 3 of the Sun or appearing in Razzle, they do it as a little cottage industry. With company sponsorship and Patreon, they don't need to deal with the low-rent Hugh Hefner wannabes.
|>>|| No. 18169
I sometimes think it's remarkable quite how camwhoring online has been commodified over the past 15 years or so. We've gone from lasses flashing their tits on imageboards for attention and any girl who classes herself even remotely alternative considering sending pictures into Suicide Girls to getting series sums of money for streaming themselves, not even having to take their clothes off for it.
|>>|| No. 18170
Also of note that the more it's being done for money, the less acceptable the term "camwhore" is, being replaced with "camgirl"/"camboy".
|>>|| No. 18171
From the Guardian
>The father of her newborn son is an Isis fighter and despite her four years with the sworn enemies of the UK, Begum said: “I actually do support some British values.”
Oh, you support some British values? Maybe we should let some of you back in then, perhaps your child, who can be adopted by a family who support all British values. You, in the meantime, should rot in the bed that you made.
|>>|| No. 18173
Not sure, but then again I'm not the one beggomg to be allowed to come back to Britain after running off to join daft militant wogs.
|>>|| No. 18174
Forming an orderly queue, minding your own business on the tube, saying this country has gone to the dogs because of the price of Freddos. The list goes on, I'm sure.
|>>|| No. 18175
You missed: bombing the shit out of countries we couldn't identify on a map, and then immediately forgetting about it.
|>>|| No. 18177
I feel obligated to point out that this is sort of shit our politicians / ruling elite get up to.
A more directly British tradition would be being thick enough to sign up for the Army because you failed your Argos exam.
|>>|| No. 18178
To have the position "I actually agree with some British values" to make logical sense, it requires that there must be some other portion of the set "British values" which are disagreed with.
Doesn't really matter what values she considers British, only that she considers them to be "British values" (Which is to say, not her own values). If she actually meant it she would have talked about how she now reconciles her position of being both eskimo and British.
No I think she's just sorry because her chosen side lost, and now she's got nothing but three dead husbands and two dead kids and she's shitting it.
The potential for her to be a sleeper jihadi is just the cherry on the shitcake, there's no way we should let her step foot on British soil ever again.
|>>|| No. 18179
>To have the position "I actually agree with some British values" to make logical sense, it requires that there must be some other portion of the set "British values" which are disagreed with.
>Doesn't really matter what values she considers British, only that she considers them to be "British values" (Which is to say, not her own values). If she actually meant it she would have talked about how she now reconciles her position of being both eskimo and British.
|>>|| No. 18181
As we've established, you don't know what "British values" are either so it's safe to say there are probably some you also disagree with. Given that they could be literally fucking anything, if you don't know what they are.
The your statement about "If she meant it then she would have done X" is entirely unfounded supposition on your part, there's no logical deduction there.
|>>|| No. 18182
We don't have a choice. She's a British citizen, so if she turns up at the border we cannot refuse entry. The state she was apparently loyal to no longer exists in any functional form, therefore she has sole nationality which means we cannot take it away from her. If she manages to escape the conflict zone, she cannot be returned there.
Ultimately, those three didn't run off to go kill people, they went to be good Inuit brides. They bought the dream, and for a while at least got to live it. Like anybody who joins a cult, she's a victim and needs to be treated as such.
|>>|| No. 18183
>Ultimately, those three didn't run off to go kill people, they went to be good Inuit brides
This is intellectually dishonest.
They expressly gave their support to IS, regardless if they killed anyone. They aided and abetted the people who were doing the killing. They are more or less the modern jihadi equivalent of those Great War white feather lasses.
There's merit to the argument that they were sucked into a cult but if you go down that route you have to extend the same charity to the lads who did kill people- There's nothing about the act of fighting that arbitrarily renders their indoctrination and victimhood invalid.
|>>|| No. 18184
>This is intellectually dishonest.
I assume by "this" you mean what you're about to say, because yes, that was indeed intellectually dishonest.
>There's merit to the argument that they were sucked into a cult but if you go down that route you have to extend the same charity to the lads who did kill people
No you don't. By your logic, the entire population of 1940s Germany is guilty of mass murder and should have been executed.
|>>|| No. 18185
> No you don't. By your logic, the entire population of 1940s Germany is guilty of mass murder and should have been executed.
You say it like it's a bad idea....
|>>|| No. 18186
>No you don't. By your logic, the entire population of 1940s Germany is guilty of mass murder and should have been executed.
That's not the same thing. The argument here would be that any British woman who left the country to support the nazis should have been executed - perhaps she still shouldn't have been, but it's hardly the same thing as simply existing in your own country during a regime.
|>>|| No. 18187
Home Secretary was questioned about the fate of the baby and went with "I can't comment on individual cases" despite having done exactly that (at some length) about the mother mere minutes before.
|>>|| No. 18188
Is it just me or does she have an extremely punchable face? And hearing her on the news, the way she talks and her whole demeanor is incredibly annoying. Shamima Begum? More like Yaminger Begone.
|>>|| No. 18189
>That's not the same thing.
It's exactly the same thing. You're suggesting that she should suffer the consequences for supporting the regime regardless of her actual actions.
>The argument here would be that any British woman who left the country to support the nazis should have been executed
By analogy. You're suggesting she should face the same consequences as those who went to fight. Those who actively participated and directed the mass killings were tried at Nuremburg, and sentences were handed down up to and including death. You're suggesting that those who did not actively participate and direct the fighting should be treated in the same way as those who did. It's not intellectually dishonest to suggest that there is a distinction. Indeed, the law and sentencing guidelines both recognise one.
>perhaps she still shouldn't have been, but it's hardly the same thing as simply existing in your own country during a regime.
The fact that she left the country is immaterial. As has been pointed out, she's a British national and we've no right to refuse to let her return, so we might as well work on the assumption that she's coming home at some point.
|>>|| No. 18191
>You're suggesting that those who did not actively participate and direct the fighting should be treated in the same way as those who did.
>sentences were handed down up to and including death
Yes, exactly. They were tried on the basis of their own individual crimes.
She shouldn't be killed, but she should be in handcuffs when she does step foot back here.
|>>|| No. 18193
You're contradicting yourself. Either they're both treated the same way - i.e. carted off to jail for a long time - or they're treated based on their individual actions. Which is it? If the latter, then her individual actions were getting brainwashed and following the cult propaganda. IS propaganda wasn't all "kill the infidels". A good amount of it was "we're building a new society, come join us". The former was mainly targeted at young men, the latter at young women.
If we all had to endure the consequences of choices we made at 15, none of us would be here. We'd all be in prison for horrific crimes against pastry. Give the baby to her family, and send her to a secure unit for deradicalisation.
|>>|| No. 18195
She should be treated by her individual actions, which are more severe than you are making out. There's no contradiction.
Pretend all you want she thought the caliphate was just about building a utopia for her and her family - but then you'd be the intellectually dishonest one.
We all do have to endure the consequences of choices we make at 15 if we get caught doing them.
|>>|| No. 18197
>She should be treated by her individual actions, which are more severe than you are making out.
Sorry, I didn't realise she was off beheading infidels while carving up the chicken.
>Pretend all you want she thought the caliphate was just about building a utopia for her and her family
Do go on. I'm sure you know better than the current body of literature on cult psychology, and her own words about the caliphate offering her a good life. After all, this is .gs, and we're all right and everyone else is wrong.
>We all do have to endure the consequences of choices we make at 15 if we get caught doing them.
What did you do at 15 that you're still living with now?
|>>|| No. 18199
>stop being so reactionary.
Says the lad who wants to lock up a woman for joining a cult.
>If I don't get to say she was aware of the actions of ISIS
No, you don't get to say that because that fundamentally ignores what we already know about cult indoctrination.
>Bought the heroin that my girlfriend killed herself with.
I didn't realise you could get internet on those bumphones.
|>>|| No. 18201
Some individual members were tried and convicted of murder, because those individual members had killed people.
I really don't get why you're having so much trouble with the notion that someone who hasn't actually killed people and has shown no evidence of wanting to kill people should be treated like she killed people.
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