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>> No. 29291 Anonymous
11th December 2020
Friday 7:21 am
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>Lloyds Banking Group has revealed that its black staff are being paid nearly 20% less than their colleagues, as it became the first major UK bank to disclose its black pay gap.

>Britain’s biggest high street lender said the earnings gap was due to a lack of black staff in senior positions that come with larger salaries and bigger bonuses. Figures released as part of its wider race action plan showed the median pay gap between black staff and their colleagues was 19.7%, while the bonus gap stood at 37.6%.

>Black employees make up 1.5% of Lloyds staff, but only hold 0.6% of the top jobs at Lloyds. The bank pledged in July to increase the number of black staff in senior roles to 3% by 2024 – bringing it in line with the black population in England and Wales – in response to Black Lives Matter protests this summer.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/11/black-staff-at-lloyds-are-paid-20-less-than-their-peers-bank-reveals

I guess we've moved on from the gender pay gap to the black pay gap now?
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>> No. 29292 Anonymous
11th December 2020
Friday 9:27 am
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The easy solution is to pay their white colleagues 20% less. We can call it progress.

One day I see this mightily pissing me off when I don't get a promotion because nobody cares about working class representation. Everyone will just call me a sore loser but even now we have special BAME internships at work that are universally populated by rich kids who will likely be fast tracked up to the career ladder.
>> No. 29298 Anonymous
11th December 2020
Friday 2:59 pm
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>>29292

The first thing is to achieve maximum diversity of Boards of Directors, then all the positive effects of intersectionality will trickle down to the plebs because all of the social problems we face are cultural and definitely not to due to increasingly unequal distribution of wealth.
>> No. 29299 Anonymous
11th December 2020
Friday 3:03 pm
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I always say I'm mixed-race on corporate forms. I mean, we all are really.
>> No. 29300 Anonymous
11th December 2020
Friday 3:14 pm
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>>29298
You'd have to skew it to take into account future demographic changes.

Only 4% of court judges are under the age of 40 due to the level of professional legal experience required, with over 40% older than 60, so the average age is about 59. Unsurprisingly this means that white people are over-represented as judges, based on the current demographics of the country.

If you were to resolve this you would have to create a time machine and to begin disproportionately welcoming ethnic minorities into the legal profession almost four decades ago.
>> No. 29347 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 10:58 am
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>>29292

Class is deftly sidestepped in most public discussions of this kind, I agree, but there are researchers out there at least hammering home the point that class is at least as important as gender or race.

A book called 'The Class Ceiling' is a good bit of recent work on it. It mostly shows that class is a determinant of lifetime earnings even at equal levels of academic achievement, that class exacerbates other existing inequalities (such as gender and race), and that there are certain industries very statistically unlikely to take on working class people at higher levels -- medicine, law, media (especially television), and acting.

Medicine is a particularly striking example, and the one I'm most personally involved in. It's touted as the most inclusive of the typical "professions" as there's been a considerable increase in female MDs, but a glance at the figures show that people of middle-class and higher backgrounds are about 12 times more likely than working class people to become doctors, and those who have at least one parent as a doctor are 24 times more likely than those who don't.

This falls in line with what was published by the British Medical Association a few years ago: pupils from 20% of secondary schools in the UK constituted 80% of the applicants to medicine. That's not even the people that went on to become physicians, just the applicants: https://questionnaires.bma.org.uk/news/therightmix/index.html

Honestly, the experience has made me very cynical when I see corporate blurb celebrating an excellent, hardworking female surgeon. That's not taking anything away from an excellent individual career, but then to find out that she's the upper-middle class child of two doctor parents puts a significant dampener on the celebration of her inclusion, for me. She was overwhelmingly more statistically likely to have "made it" in her field than anyone from my school year, boys or girls.

>>29298

It's pretty remarkable how many people believe this on some level. It's possible this is just classic divide-and-rule stuff, but there is something very insidious about it.
>> No. 29348 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 11:17 am
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That doesn't sound like a pay gap at all. Because it isn't. That is clearly a management gap, which is a different debate, I'm willing to put money on it being good old fashion lack of social mobility and less black people being middle class (even though everyone thinks they are middle class now which makes it harder to identify who actually is), as it clearly isn't the conspiracy that I am sure this will be imagined to be.
>> No. 29350 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 12:57 pm
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>>29347

>at least as important as gender or race.

It's not "at least as important", it's fundamental, it's the root behind all the others. If racism is Mayhem and sexism is Bathory, class dynamics are Venom. Do you follow?
>> No. 29351 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 1:05 pm
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>>29350

Not really no.
>> No. 29352 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 1:09 pm
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>>29348
>it clearly isn't the conspiracy that I am sure this will be imagined to be.

It's divide and rule. Rather than focus on being underpaid whilst the rich get richer, they're trying to pit workers against each other and undermine solidarity. This attack comes from both ends of the political spectrum.
>> No. 29353 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 1:39 pm
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>>29351

Well it's not my fault you haven't done your homework on influential early 80s extreme metal acts is it. It's a very elegant metaphor that works on several levels, if you could be bothered to do your research.
>> No. 29354 Anonymous
13th December 2020
Sunday 1:41 pm
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>>29350

I think you're broadly correct, yeah. I think I was just mincing words a bit because I don't want to entirely rule out the possibility of racism and sexism happening independently of class.

I'm sure the former two would decrease massively if class dynamics changed, but I can't say if it would disappear entirely.
>> No. 29363 Anonymous
14th December 2020
Monday 4:06 am
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>>29350

Conrad Lant runs (or did run ten years ago) a studio/rehearsal space in newcastle, it was all a bit odd when I went. You'd think he wouldn't need to charge teenagers fifteen quid an hour to rent your room but there it is.
>> No. 29366 Anonymous
14th December 2020
Monday 7:18 am
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>>29363

Not surprising, most bands of that sort aren't exactly loaded. They're big names in terms of influence and respect, but they never truly had commercial success in their heyday, or if they did, that money will have long since dried up.

I always think it must be really weird to be at that level of sort-of-famous, in a very specific demographic, where you can wander about Tescos and the vast majority of people have absolutely no clue who you are, but every so often you bump into some grebo who points at you and goes "Fuck me it's Cronos!"
>> No. 29371 Anonymous
14th December 2020
Monday 12:55 pm
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>>29366

I think that's the only sort of fame I could tolerate. Back in my cheflad days I ran a place in a small town and people would just stop me and talk to me on the street about poached eggs and such - sometimes with reverence like I was on the telly, sometimes with familiarity like I lived in the same house as them. It was awful - it made financial and logistical sense for me to move to that town when I worked there, but I much preferred living many miles away.

The bloke dressed as a builder in the "hands, face, space" adverts is a family friend, and apparently nobody has directly recognised him from it, but often people just stare at him in confusion, trying to work out why he looks familiar to them. That doesn't sound fun.
>> No. 29372 Anonymous
14th December 2020
Monday 1:55 pm
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>>29371
Should've taken your chef hat off when out and about.
>> No. 32897 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 8:04 am
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Downing Street’s official response to the racial justice movements connected to Black Lives Matter has suggested the UK should be seen as an international exemplar of racial equality, and has played down the impact of structural factors in ethnic disparities.

A preview summarising the report, which is described as a “major shift in the race debate”, notes that while overt racism does still exist in the UK, achievements elsewhere should make the country “a model for other white-majority countries”. It emphasises the academic achievements of children from minority ethnic backgrounds, saying that many students from these communities do as well or better than their white peers. It does, however, call for extended school days to help disadvantaged pupils catch up.

The 264-page report has 24 recommendations. However, these are not yet known, as the Government Equalities Office, which is organising its release, opted to put out only a brief summary of the findings on Tuesday. One of the main conclusions of the report appears to be a pushback against the idea of structural racism. In an open rebuff to the arguments of the BLM movement, and the protests that erupted after the death of George Floyd in the US, the report is described as saying “the well-meaning idealism of many young people who claim the country is still institutionally racist is not borne out by the evidence”.

The report does note that some communities are still very affected by historical cases of racism, creating “deep mistrust” in the system, adding: “Both the reality and the perception of unfairness matter.”One conclusion is that the term BAME, (black, Asian and minority ethnic) is “of limited value” and should no longer be used by official bodies. As expected, it also calls for a move away from unconscious bias training.

On pay and other work-based disparities, the report calls this “an improving picture”, saying that overall, “issues around race and racism were becoming less important and, in some cases, were not a significant factor in explaining disparities”, with areas such as social class viewed as of equal importance. The report says: “We found that most of the disparities we examined, which some attribute to racial discrimination, often do not have their origins in racism.”


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/uk-an-exemplar-of-racial-equality-no-10s-race-commission-concludes
>> No. 32898 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 8:22 am
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>>32897

Outright denial is tried and true strategy.
>> No. 32899 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 8:50 am
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>>32898
It doesn't sound like they're denying it, more like they're saying that class is a much, much bigger issue.
>> No. 32900 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 9:15 am
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>>32899
>they're saying that class is a much, much bigger issue.
>areas such as social class viewed as of equal importance
I don't know what this might "sound" like to you but it quite clearly says that class is as equally irrelevant as race.
>> No. 32902 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 9:27 am
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>>32898

They're saying that black and brown people aren't all the same. Talking about "race" or "racism" in a blanket sense is basically meaningless, because different ethnic groups have radically different experiences, obstacles and opportunities. Those differences can't possibly be explained by discrimination or unconscious bias, unless racists are so laser-precise in their racism that they distinguish between East and West Africans when choosing who to discriminate against.

Things aren't perfect, but the data is very clear that the UK has very low levels of racial discrimination and very high levels of racial equality, even when compared to other highly developed economies.
>> No. 32903 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 10:18 am
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>>32902
>Those differences can't possibly be explained by discrimination or unconscious bias, unless racists are so laser-precise in their racism that they distinguish between East and West Africans when choosing who to discriminate against.

Structural racism doesn't require the unconscious bias of individuals so much as a harmful policy or acceptance of a status quo -- it's very possible for a policy to affect one highly specific group versus another.

>They're saying that black and brown people aren't all the same. Talking about "race" or "racism" in a blanket sense is basically meaningless.

I agree that BAME is a useless category, and perhaps was designed to be that way from the beginning. At the same time, the statement that “the well-meaning idealism of many young people who claim the country is still institutionally racist is not borne out by the evidence” is clearly wrong; it's absolutely possible for there to be systemic racism toward hyper-specific groups. The UK has gone through periods of vicious anti-Irish, antisemitic, anti-traveller, etc. sentiment. The quote from the report cites education as an example, but if I remember correctly young black kids in the UK still lag behind in getting English and Maths GCSEs.

There's a huge difference between saying, "race should be talked about in these terms", and "the country is not institutionally racist". Why are we not remaining open to the idea that the country could be institutionally racist toward Bangladeshis and laplanderstanis?
>> No. 32904 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 10:32 am
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>>32899
I'm sure Boris and the rest of those Oxbridge scum will get around to fixing that any day then.
>> No. 32905 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 10:35 am
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>>32902
>They're saying that black and brown people aren't all the same.
Nobody is saying they are.

>Those differences can't possibly be explained by discrimination or unconscious bias
Only if you assume the effects of discrimination and unconscious bias are uniform and equal.
>> No. 32906 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 10:52 am
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>>32903

There's a real problem with diluting the term "racism". Proper, old-fashioned racial prejudice and discrimination still exists, even if it's much less prevalent than it used to be. Lumping in a bunch of other stuff that might cause disparate outcomes based on race might motivate people to take action, but it muddies the waters in a way that's distracting at best and actively counterproductive at worst.

For example, the Lammy review found that black men tended to get more severe sentences for serious crimes like manslaughter and murder. Lammy argued that it was evidence of institutional racism in sentencing, but the factual explanation was both more prosaic and more complex - black men were much less likely to plead guilty than their white counterparts, so didn't benefit from the reduction in sentencing. We don't know why black men are less likely to plead guilty and Lammy actively avoided investigating the issue, so we're no closer to fixing the problem.

It might seem pedantic, but the word "racism" is so emotionally charged that it tends to inhibit reasonable discourse. The people being accused go on the defensive, the people doing the accusing feel a sense of righteous outrage and the possibility of reflection and change judders to a halt. I think this is part of what Sewell was getting at in his report.

We're not America, we don't have a legacy of slavery and segregation, we don't have neo-Nazis and KKK members running police forces. Our issues around race are vastly more nuanced and we need a more nuanced discourse if we're to usefully address them.
>> No. 32907 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 12:00 pm
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>>32906
That true?

>Analysis conducted for the Lammy Review found a clear direct association between ethnic group and the odds of receiving a custodial sentence. With black people 53%, Asian 55%, and other ethnic groups 81% more likely to be sent to prison for an indictable offence at the Crown Court, even when factoring in higher not-guilty plea rates.
http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/WhatWeDo/Projectsresearch/Race
>> No. 32908 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 12:53 pm
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>>32897
>It does, however, call for extended school days to help disadvantaged pupils catch up.

I look forward to the inevitable shitstorm from the unions.
>> No. 32909 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 1:36 pm
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>>32907

The data is hugely confounded because of the different offending behaviour of different ethnic groups. Comparing all indictable offences isn't really comparing like-with-like - white men commit a vastly disproportionate amount of petty violence and criminal damage, while black men commit a vastly disproportionate amount of robbery and drug dealing.

The paper from which those statistics were taken: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/568896/associations-between-ethnic-background-being-sentenced-to-prison-in-the-crown-court-in-england-and-wales-2015.pdf

>Whilst a number of associations were observed between the likelihood of custodial sentencing and a range of offence / offender characteristics, it is important to note that the current analysis did not take into account all factors which were used in making sentencing decisions. For example, the analysis used seventeen broad offence groups, allowing for comparisons between defendants from different ethnic backgrounds within these groups. However, there remains a range of offence seriousness within the offence groups (e.g. murder and common assault are both Violence against the person offences), which is not included in the modelling. Furthermore, the mitigating and aggravating circumstances surrounding offences could not be included in the statistical models

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/639261/bame-disproportionality-in-the-cjs.pdf

http://civitas.org.uk/content/files/istherearacialdisparityinthecriminaljusticesystem.pdf
>> No. 32910 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 3:52 pm
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Why are the most newspapers still racist then?
>> No. 32911 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 3:53 pm
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>>32910
Why can't I delete my own post? I feel embarrassed.
>> No. 32912 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 5:21 pm
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>>32911
IIRC it's a browser-specific problem. It works in the browser purple uses so he can't be bothered to fix it for other browsers.
>> No. 32913 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 5:48 pm
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>>32912
How does one download PurpScape then?
>> No. 32914 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 5:48 pm
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>>32913

I think it works in Chrome.
>> No. 32915 Anonymous
31st March 2021
Wednesday 5:49 pm
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Nope, it does not.

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