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>> No. 31683 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 7:27 pm
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Almost all young women in the UK have been sexually harassed, survey finds

Virtually all young women in the UK have been subjected to sexual harassment, according to a survey from UN Women UK, which warns that most women have lost faith that the abuse will be dealt with. Among women aged 18-24, 97% said they had been sexually harassed, while 80% of women of all ages said they had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

Should we, as a gender, be doing more to tackle sexual harassment?
Expand all images.
>> No. 31684 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 8:07 pm
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>>31683
Define sexual harassment. Is asking a girl for a snog while drinking tinnies down the canal sexual harassment if she says no, or does it need to be more sinister.

Polls like these never reveal their methodology so there is no way to really figure out what these people consider to be harassment or if that is even a fair definition of what's happening.
>> No. 31685 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 8:24 pm
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>>31684
Found the office creep.
>> No. 31686 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 8:31 pm
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>>31684

It's disturbing enough that 97% would define the experiences they've had as sexual harassment, but I'm also inclined to agree; without being provided with the definition or methodology used in the survey, it's impossible to know what action (if any) would be an appropriate response.

I'm glad we've moved into an era when even the most soulless of corporate entities will generally get HR to take action if they get a serious complaint like this. At the same time, it's hard to do this in public -- you can't police every interaction. The perception in the survey that most harassment won't be taken up by the authorities is probably correct.

It might not be conducive to getting to a real solution about helping women not experience shitty things, but I do feel compelled to bring up the fact that I've been "sexually assaulted" as a man in public spaces as well, experiencing everything on the spectrum from inappropriate comments from colleagues to having my arse and crotch outright grabbed by women. I've also been violently assaulted by both men and women, and there seems to be a shocking lack of attention sometimes on the fact that most violent assault is a gendered issue of almost exclusively men bashing the shit out of eachother.

I kind of wonder whether this might just be people behaving dysfunctionally within a dysfunctional society, and the remedy might be something more akin to better mental health generally, so that we're not abusing eachother for kicks.

>>31685

This is a conversational cul-de-sac. Otherlad is right, studies and surveys are almost useless without also publishing the definitions and population/data collection methods.
>> No. 31687 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 8:45 pm
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You can email the UN and ask them for the data.

https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now
>> No. 31688 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 8:48 pm
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>>31686
>It's disturbing enough that 97% would define the experiences they've had as sexual harassment, but I'm also inclined to agree; without being provided with the definition or methodology used in the survey, it's impossible to know what action (if any) would be an appropriate response.
"Their bar for sexual harassment might be too low" is certainly an interesting line to take.
>> No. 31689 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:03 pm
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>>31688
Different lad but 97% is a figure that stretches credulity. I believe that there's a massive issue, I could believe 80% of women are harassed but 97%? I would be surprised if 97% of the population own a television.
>> No. 31690 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:14 pm
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>>31689

I don't know, I believe it. I have quite literally not met a woman who hasn't been harassed in some way, but there's certainly types of harassment that men get too but probably welcome. I have been catcalled by a woman and it made my day, because it was novel and also I didn't feel threatened - reverse the roles and the story is different.

My point is that I really don't think any of us really understand how relentless it can be for women. I'd not rule out that I've had interactions with women that they could viably consider harassment, simply because I didn't apply enough empathy to a situation to realise I was being inappropriate. I can't think of an example, but that's sort of the point.
>> No. 31691 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:18 pm
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>>31688

That's a wilful misreading. What I'm saying is that sexual harassment takes many forms, and it's hard to think of a realistic catch-all solution that would make all of them disappear. The thing that makes blokes stop wolf-whistling in the street is not likely to be the same thing that makes a colleague stop making inappropriate passes or touching at work, for example.

It might be a poor analogy, but if you want to solve road accidents, it's not only about sticking signs up saying "be safer" (though not an inherently bad idea). It's more that it's one part of a broader set of solutions including setting speed limits, enforcing drink-driving laws, getting car manufacturers to adhere to safety standards, etc..

A survey like this can't tell us much without saying what the experiences of sexual harassment actually are with a bit more nuance.
>> No. 31692 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:25 pm
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>>31691

Exactly, and it's also worth noting that you can identify that you've been sexually harassed regardless of how you feel about it. Someone self aware enough can know that Big Gary giving them a backrub, unprompted, at work, is harassment, even if ultimately they quite liked it. And when the line is that thin, it does become difficult to know what to do.

(I did work with a guy who would do this, though he did not discriminate on gender)
>> No. 31693 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:26 pm
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>>31689
>97% is a figure that stretches credulity
Why and how? Think through that argument carefully. Don't bother with "they can't do maths".
>> No. 31694 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:29 pm
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>>31692

I would think that any incident that someone would describe as harassment is unwanted by definition. Even if what you say does hold any water at all, I don't think this would be enough to meaningfully affect the data.
>> No. 31695 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:31 pm
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>>31691
>The thing that makes blokes stop wolf-whistling in the street is not likely to be the same thing that makes a colleague stop making inappropriate passes or touching at work, for example.
Well, no, the thing that makes blokes stop doing both of those is the same thing: social pressure. If you were going to say "HR policies", know that HR is frequently complicit in the abuse and that even if they did act the abuser would just cry foul and play the victim.
>> No. 31696 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:50 pm
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>At the root of all this is the normalisation of the idea that a woman’s body in a public place is simply public property and young women just have to put up with it. We have to shatter that normalisation through policy and in the press if we want to change the picture
Sorry, but this is total fucking wank. Nobody thinks that women's bodies are public property.

>Should we, as a gender, be doing more to tackle sexual harassment?
I dunno, maybe. What are you suggesting? Confronting cat callers on behalf of random women? I've never actually seen cat calling happen IRL.
>> No. 31697 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 9:59 pm
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>>31695

I completely agree with you about HR, and I'm aware much of sexual harassment policy is based on very primitive power politics (i.e. "would it be more damaging to the organisation to sack them or do nothing?" type of reasoning). That said, I do also think that the threat of being dismissed is one potentially useful tool among many.

I disagree somewhat about "social pressure", though. Yes, cultural change is the goal, but there's loads of mechanisms by which you can do that. Legislation can be a good idea, where applicable. Enforced social guidelines in other contexts, maybe not -- even worse, it might cause some backlash and people deliberately bucking the change.

As I say, it's hard to even talk about the right way to exert "social pressure" without knowing what kind of harassment we're talking about. It reminds me of the way people will publish vague social media messages about "normalising (behaviour x)". Fine, maybe behaviour x should be normalised, but perhaps it would be more useful to address the reasons why behaviour x is stigmatised, ideally with specific examples of how this presents itself in real world events?

>>31696
>Sorry, but this is total fucking wank. Nobody thinks that women's bodies are public property.

It's poor phrasing, but I think there is something to be said for the idea that all bodies are treated as "public property"; we all have expectations and prejudices about appropriate behaviours and attitudes towards our bodies imposed on us based on our characteristics, it's just this tends to take the form of sexualisation for (young) women.
>> No. 31698 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 10:20 pm
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>>31693
It's simply intuition based on spending an unreasonable amount of time looking at polls and surveys.
I accept I could simply be wrong, but these two things can't be reconciled in my head:
1. Roughly as many young women must be harassed as have a washing machine, or any other near-universal household item. For an alternative comparison, a young woman who hasn't been harassed would be about as rare as a genuine flat earther.
2. All of these women are willing to let a survey taker know about the harassment. All of them, even the deeply conservative ones, the ones who're trying to pretend it didn't happen, the ones who fear retribution for speaking out, and so on.
Now I'm quite prepared to accept that the first one is the case despite my skepticism. It seems unlikely, , but I'm open to the fact I could be underestimating the scale of a truly gigantic problem. The second is the real source of my suspicion. It simply does not seem likely that reporting would be so universal in a society so at peace with harassment.
>> No. 31699 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 10:32 pm
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I don't know, I think at least part of that statistic is the result of men being expected to be the active one in any courtship and a shifting perception of what is and isn't considered appropriate. It reminds me of a gay lassm8 angrily complaining to me that she couldn't have a drink after work without being bothered by lads trying to talk to her, I saw her point but she seemed to hold it against the men despite them doing what society expects them to do.

Suppose I can look forward to sexual harassment being a topic at the next work stand-up at any rate. Zoom bothering - the act of being unusually flirty with a colleague in a morning phone call because you just awoke from an awkward sex dream.

>>31695
>I would think that any incident that someone would describe as harassment is unwanted by definition.

When I was a teenage call-centre drone I had a female manager sneak up on me when I was working and tickle me to wake me up. I don't know if it strictly counts as sexual in my book as I'm not sure of her intent but I didn't like it. She was a bit wrong, the term 'mutton-dressed-as-lamb' came to mind because she was in her late 30s but dressed like a teenager and clearly had a thing for the young meat.

Still would've but it was clearly inappropriate touching for an office environment as defined by society. On the flip-side there's plenty of times I've felt more like I'm taking one for the team in bed* but you wouldn't call it sexual harassment because I was expected to and didn't want to cause a fuss.

*don't roll your eyes at me, I'm just making a point.
>> No. 31700 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 10:46 pm
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I remember once when I was younger, I think I was at uni, there was a woman walking ahead of me in the street, she looked back a couple of times but I thought nothing of it. Then I tripped on a paving stone and made a stumbling noise, at which I heard her audibly gasp. I had an impulse to explain that I wasn't following her but realised that would just have made it worse, so I crossed the street and sped up so I was in front of her so she could see me. I know it wasn't remotely my fault that she felt threatened or like she was being followed by me, but I still felt fucking awful and it's stuck with me. It was probably the first time I really thought about it from a woman's perspective.

If I had felt like I was being followed, I would have been preparing to fight - she seemed like she was just preparing to be attacked. My response is likely just as sad, that I feel like I'm expected by society to do violence to remain safe, but at least for me it changed a little bit about how I thought about how men and women are treated.
>> No. 31701 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 10:47 pm
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>>31698
The problem with the two points you raise is that:
1. If this weren't the case, then that would require that either the bar for what constitutes harassment is too low, or they're simply lying. Neither of these assertions is a particularly good look.
2. It's an anonymous confidential survey. There is no retribution for speaking out. Nobody that cares will know that they answered the survey and reported being harassed.

>>31697
>I do also think that the threat of being dismissed is one potentially useful tool among many.
Only if it's a credible threat. You only need look at the news from Google where it's the people that report issues and make noise that are the ones getting dismissed or referred for mental health issues.
>> No. 31702 Anonymous
10th March 2021
Wednesday 11:17 pm
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>>31701
For 1 that isn't quite correct, there are other possibilities: It could be an unrepresentative sample or some other questionable structural decision, which isn't quite the same thing as lying. It's entirely possible to set up a poll in a less-than-ideal fashion by accident while acting in good faith.
I would never say that the bar for what constitutes harassment is too low. I would consider it a plausible explanation for the high figure that it's much lower than what most people would consider harassment. That is a bad look (because it looks too similar to "too low"), but I don't think most people are right. If we could see the survey's definition it would be easier to decide if the figure is plausible without having to make any judgement on whether that definition is appropriate.
For 2, remember that you're dealing with a figure as high as 97%. Assuming a representative sample, that includes the paranoid, the ignorant, and the completely crazy. Unless you go further and imagine they're in the 3% and the actual figure is 100%, I suppose.

I suppose I should make clear I'm interested here because I'm the sort of sad individual who's interested in surveys, not because I'm the kind of bad-faith dickhead who wants to demonstrate that "actually only 80% of women are harassed. The remaining 17% are merely made to feel very uncomfortable which isn't harassment, so actually there's no problem." I take as read that the problem actually exists.
>> No. 31705 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 1:33 am
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97% of women report sexual harassment, but it doesn't say what that harassment entailed. Are they being groped, touched, verbally harassed or is simply being unattractive enough for a women to think you speaking to them is harassment? We need to know where the bar is do something about it.

The survey doesn't say and we'll never know because they never publish their data and methodology properly so it can be peer reviewed. Sociology is a fucking tinpot science and I wash my hands of this weirdness.
>> No. 31706 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:03 am
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>>31702
>It could be an unrepresentative sample or some other questionable structural decision
Ah, so you're going with "leading market research company didn't do their job properly"? Yeah, no.

>Assuming a representative sample, that includes the paranoid, the ignorant, and the completely crazy.
I'd think the 3% covers those with plenty of room to spare. Plus the error bars on 1000 young women (about 4.2m) are themselves around 3%.
>> No. 31707 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 4:01 am
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To anyone doubting the numbers, ask the women in your life about their experiences. The world is full of awful perverts who mostly get away with it. Being wanked at in the street or having an erection rubbed against your arse on the Tube or getting a hand up your skirt in a nightclub is just a normal part of life for women.

I've never done any of those things, but I do know that I've been a little bit too persistent when chatting someone up, I've made female friends feel uncomfortable with jokes that were a little bit too near the knuckle, I've slept with women who were probably a little bit too pissed, a little bit too vulnerable. There's a massive grey area of stuff that's not necessarily criminal, but is definitely unethical - stuff that you justify to yourself at the time, but that you know deep down is a bit predatory. I think that men tend to diminish the experiences of women partly out of ignorance, but partly as a defence mechanism against having to examine their own behaviour.

We shouldn't just uncritically accept any possible allegation as true, but we do need to recognise that women are perpetually under threat in a way that makes them justifiably fearful and hyper-vigilant. Like >>31700 crossing the street, we need to make a conscious effort to help women feel safe whenever we can. We need to examine our own actions and we need to have honest conversations with other men about how we can all be better.
>> No. 31708 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 6:48 am
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>>31707
I think the level of disbelief itt is quite naive. Basically every woman I've spoken to for long enough has a story about some bloke taking photos of them, grabbing them, talking to them like shit, all sorts. Now, you might say "ah, but you've only ever spoken to three women, you big saddo", but the point stands. These are situations that men basically don't have to deal with.
>> No. 31709 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 7:12 am
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>>31700
When I was at university I was walking about 20 metres behind a female student on a quiet road on a very foggy day. The only noise was our footsteps and I could tell she quickened her pace when she realised I was behind her. She then decided to cross the road, but almost exactly where my car was parked so I had to follow her across. I don't think I've ever felt more like a sex pest.

I must look a bit like a wrong 'un because in my younger days middle aged women would shield their handbags from me as we walked past each other.
>> No. 31710 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:17 am
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Women in the Western world are amongst the most privileged and least endangered demographics out of the entire human population. First world feminism is nothing but petit bourgeois power politics.

I won't try to claim there exists perfect gender equality in Britain today, but I won't be taking shite like the OP's article seriously until western women start fighting in wars, becoming homeless or committing suicide at the same rate as men. Until then they can deal with the fact somebody wolf whistled at them six years ago.
>> No. 31711 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:23 am
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>>31710

Solid logic there, ignore women being sexually harassed because they don't fight enough wars. Just such brilliance on display there.
>> No. 31712 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:34 am
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>>31709
I think the point at which I realised she was trying to get away from me I would have waited for her to leave the area before following her across the street... well, do better next time.
>> No. 31713 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:35 am
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>>31711

Cuts to the point mind.

97% of women have been sexually harassed is a useless statistic. I bet 97% of men can say they've had a woman misinterpret an entirely innocent attempt at flirtation. Neither of those would help anyone or contribute anything towards solving whatever is wrong here.

There needs to be a line drawn between proper sexual assault and the delicate sensitivities of middle class Guardian fisherpersons. We can't tackle everything at once, and the list of things more important than being looked ot funny on the tube or getting inappropriate messages on Tinder is about as long as a Dostoyevesky novel, it's as simple as that.

You can call that a relative privation fallacy if you like but I'll be saying I told you so when we're all underwater and you realise we should have spent more time talking about that.
>> No. 31714 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:55 am
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>>31713

"Climate change exists, so we shouldn't talk about sexual harassment".

10/10.
>> No. 31715 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:58 am
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>>31711

The point of the other post was that, in a just world, the problems of a relatively highly protected class of people are not the first priority.

By all means, argue about whether these things should be prioritised, or whether it's a fallacy to try and pit one social ill against another, or whether they're wrong in their assessment of privilege and danger, or whatever else, but it's the laziest thing to just mischaracterise an argument and then dismiss it.
>> No. 31716 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:34 am
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Observation of people has taught me that people label it as sexual harassment when a sexual advancement is rejected that they would have been fine or even fantasised about had it been a person they were into. If you believed everything you read about what is sexual harassment. You would never be able to procreate. This is perhaps why internet porn has turned to incest because they are the only women young men are taught they can engage without volatile rejection.

As long that is the bar of entry I am dubious about such statements about prevalence in society being meaningful. I've also read too many online journalist treat it like it was one step away from rape when a guy took the intitive to talk to them, that is clearly not the bar for sexual harassment but there seems to be a lot of people who think it should be.

I've also been in a organisation that had to deal with the bullshit of people using innuendo to try play the system to sabotage people they didn't like, you get a lot of mileage just from floating the concept of sexual harassment, as from an institutions perspective it really must be handled seriously and you can't be dismissive. it is like a cheat code for a special kind of cunt and the more you feel it must always be taken and you must believe the victim seriously the more power they have.

I am sure this post will be inevitably strawmanned into condoning what are quite self evidently crimes or hand waving away all sexual harassment as non existent.
>> No. 31717 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:35 am
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>>31715

It's a totally flippant argument. By definition, anyone participating in this conversation isn't prioritising the most serious problems in the world. Most of us aren't aid workers in the D.R. Congo, most of us don't live in poverty so we can give every penny we can to the World Food Programme. Unless you really are living that hyper-utilitarian life of service to the very poorest, then saying "it isn't the worst problem in the world so I don't have to care about it" is functionally equivalent to the defining statement of privilege - "it doesn't affect me, so no-one should care about it".

We've got a mix of priorities based only very weakly on pure utilitarianism, which is fine. Sexual harassment isn't the worst problem in the world, but it's a serious problem nonetheless.
It might be uncomfortable to admit, but it's a problem we're all complicit in; the upside is that we are all able to combat it in some way.
>> No. 31718 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:49 am
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>>31716

I believe the argument is that entitlement masks it self in victimhood, especially to the entitled themselves, and it is the privilege that complain the loudest and the most when they don't get something they want.
>> No. 31719 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:49 am
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>>31717

>anyone participating in this conversation isn't prioritising the most serious problems in the world. Most of us aren't aid workers in the D.R. Congo

Selective reductionism isn't a counterargument to that point. Maybe we're not all in UN development thinktanks, but it's reasonable to believe plenty of people here work for the NHS or campaign for their political cause, attend protests, and so on.

>Sexual harassment isn't the worst problem in the world, but it's a serious problem nonetheless.

Which is what ties into the previous point- It's not the most serious problem, but it can be serious, except here we're talking about a survey where a majority of the instances were fairly inarguably in the not at all serious camp. It is not only slightly offensive to people who belong to the group who have been involved in serious sexual assault, but it's counter-productive as a whole.

At the end of the day this is the kind of tripe pushed by very comfortable people with very comfortable lives, who want in on a bit of that "life is hard because of factors preordained before my birth" political currency, doing a disservice to people who have legitimate claims to that currency.
>> No. 31720 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:58 am
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>>31717
>the upside is that we are all able to combat it in some way.
Combat WHAT mate? "Sexual harassment" in the context of the OP is entirely nebulous. I have never stuck my hands up a women's skirt unsolicited, but I have been shot down in flames when trying to chat one up. Was I harassing her? Is any women I've tried it on with who didn't like me a victim of harassment?

We have no answers, only a statistic which makes no sense to any of us because we're not wrong uns. So where do we go from here?
>> No. 31721 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:06 am
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>>31720
Do you think women aren't able to tell when they're being harassed? Maybe because you have to be as clever as a man to be capable of making the distinction?
>> No. 31722 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:08 am
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So what sexual harassment stats do you lads actually believe then?
>> No. 31723 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:13 am
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This is all just a smokescreen for the anti-protesting laws they're planning to pass.
>> No. 31724 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:16 am
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>>31717
>Unless you really are living that hyper-utilitarian life of service to the very poorest, then saying "it isn't the worst problem in the world so I don't have to care about it" is functionally equivalent to the defining statement of privilege - "it doesn't affect me, so no-one should care about it".

Agreed, and I also don't think that the existence of worse things precludes devoting attention to less-severe-but-still-bad things.

At the same time, what if we're also complicit in several other bad things that aren't "the worst problem in the world", but still deserve more attention than sexual harassment? For example, I think it is valid to point out that if we're concerned about gender equality, it is justified to have conversations about violence committed among and to men, about the near-universal gender differences in suicide, about the relatively shorter lifespans of men in wealthy countries, and so on.

Those conversations seem to be few and far between, and when they occur they're often presented in conspicuously shallow and non-gendered terms, or even in ways that push the burden of seeking care back onto men ("suicidal men just need to seek help more", etc.). So I think there's some fairness in pushing back against research like this. I'm with you that "but what about x?" is an unproductive reaction, but it might also be that this is an unproductive survey, or at the very least an unproductive way of presenting the survey findings.
>> No. 31725 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:19 am
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>>31721
>Do you think women aren't able to tell when they're being harassed?
No, I'm asking what women define as harassment and if I've been complicit in it. No one has been able to define what harassment is so how can we combat it?
>> No. 31726 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:20 am
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>>31725
Have you ever been sexually harassed?
>> No. 31728 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:32 am
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>>31726
How would the people responsible know what constitutes harassment if all I said was "yes"? You're deflecting.

How can we define that which is completely arbitrary and unique to each individual? What I consider harassment might not even register on another person's radar.

I have been made to feel uncomfortable by the advances of men and women on 100s of occasions, but is that harassment because I say it is or only once it passes an arbitrary threshold? Does my gender or sexual orientation affect this threshold?
>> No. 31729 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:33 am
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>>31721

I think women will decide if it's harassment entirely based upon how much they liked your face and if you looked high enough in status to meet their requirements.

At the end of the day human interaction is just too flawed for us to allow wishy washy self-definition on these kinds of things. There needs to be something concrete, because no matter how much awareness and sensitivity you promote in men, you can't teach people not to be socially awkward fuck ups.

Aren't there also statistics suggesting gen Z simply isn't having sex? They're practically celibate compared to the generations before them and is it any wonder why.
>> No. 31730 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:39 am
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Open question lads: Have any of you ever turned down a female's advances on you? How did she react?

I don't want to be presumptuous, but I think the very fact I can ask that question, knowing it's rare enough that it might never have even happened to some of you, has a lot to answer for.
>> No. 31731 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:46 am
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>>31721

Fuck it I will bite. Yes some women can't tell, there are the Beatrice and Alice Grants of the world who assume that if someone doesn't give them what they want when they asked nicely that person was unreasonable. And that they can ask any man in a bar to buy them a drink and when they man tries to talk to them afterwards assuming they are interested cause a scene of it being harassment and walk off with their free drink.

I've met these people I've met the BBC journalists daughters who were taught and believed male sexuality defacto disgusting and men were only after one thing. I've met the child of Barristers who would lecture me on how I am privileged so I wouldn't know.
I've met the lady who doth protest too much who ended up marrying their 'harasser' who I had been expected to defend her from. I've seen the girl get too drunk in a bar hit on someone and when they sobered up decide it was the other people’s fault. I've had the girl who couldn't take no for an answer take rejection as me being cruel. And I have meant the person who wielded sexual harassment as a weapon in HR to sabotage someone else.

All of this is more of an insult to the multiple women I have loved who have been raped than me, what again is quite telling is that these women were very quiet about their abuse, deenying it or tried to rationalise it (so ironically by your point they didn't know they were harassed), being a victim has very different behaviour from being entitled belief that you are one, powerlessness runs through a victims behavour.

Life has taught me that the worse just of anything is a person involved in a situation.
>> No. 31732 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:48 am
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>>31730

Yes. If you date someone for a while and it will happen.
>> No. 31733 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:48 am
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>>31730
Is my answer invalid if I'm gay? I went through a period in my 20s where I would only go to pubs with a beard I could use as a shield so I wouldn't get chatted up by women, I never considered it harassment though, just annoying; people are horny and pubs are where they go to meet other horny people. I was there to meet horny men though, so they were out of luck.

I have been inappropriately touched by men and women though and I would consider that harassment, but I feel like they knew that already and didn't care so me telling them that probably wouldn't have made much difference to their behaviour.
>> No. 31734 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:49 am
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>>31731

>worse just of anything

Judge. Autocorrect got me.
>> No. 31735 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:58 am
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>>31728
I'm deflecting? You're prevaricating. What point are you making? That we can't effectively fight harassment, because some of the 97% of responses might not be 'as bad' as you, a man, think is bad? Does that mean we shouldn't try? If we should try, then why is this important?
>> No. 31736 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 12:16 pm
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>>31735
>as bad' as you, a man, think is bad
Projection, no one has said this. Every single response has been consistent in their confusion over what defines harassment and how to effectively combat it when we don't even know where the line is or what 97% of women consider harassment to be.

How do we combat a nebulous, arbitrary concept? It's futile by definition, so we need to crystallise the debate so we can have a consistent and non-confusing idea of what we're fighting. Which is what we're all asking and you continue to dance around.
>> No. 31737 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 12:18 pm
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>>31735

The point they are making is that sexual harassment is entirely subjective, it is defined by the reaction of the victim, and that is a nebulous bench mark. If we tried to codify it and took it by the broadest definition we would have to lock up all society, it we took it by the narrowest rapists would walk free.
Sexual harassment therefore is an entirely unhelpful catch all term, it is too broad to be useful and any statistics about it is meaningless.
It would be like if we got rid of all the different categories of assault and just called it all 'non-consensual physical contact' then we wouldn't be able to have a sensible conversation about that either, because discussion about murder and fist fights would be equivocated with aggressive football tackling and being too close on public transport.
>> No. 31739 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 1:02 pm
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>>31738
Oh, good, someone said something silly I now longer have to care about this issue.
>> No. 31740 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 1:07 pm
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>>31738
If you're being banned for posting links to the DM, posting excerpts without the links isn't any better. It's not a technicality you'll be allowed to get away with. Just fucking stop.
>> No. 31741 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 1:30 pm
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>>31740

Thanks modlad, I almost got riled up at the story without realising it was DM nonsense.
>> No. 31742 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 2:17 pm
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>>31736
>>31737
So you're confused about what sexual harassment is? Tell your employer, maybe they'll send you on a training course.
>> No. 31744 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 2:28 pm
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>>31740
Are we blanket banned for DM links or just where not relevant? I'm wondering about exclusives. I think I've posted links before without issue but that might just be because I'm a quality poster and/or sensitivity-lad forgot to whinge.
>> No. 31745 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 2:45 pm
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>>31744
I think it depends what mood the mods are in, but almost any DM link will result in a ban and deletion even if it is an exclusive or it's something written for them, like when they had exclusives about Prince Andrew or the article Are Nige penned at the weekend about him leaving politics "for good".
>> No. 31746 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 2:48 pm
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>>31743
She must think she's making some kind of statement but I do wonder about Patel's comment that more will be done to make women feel safer walking home.

I mean, 'feeling safer' sets me on edge a bit. A few years back I remember reading a farcical story of an American college campus running courses on rape awareness that spooked the women up -and then they handed them tasers at the end with predictable results.
>> No. 31747 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 2:52 pm
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>>31706
>Ah, so you're going with "leading market research company didn't do their job properly"?
It's hardly beyond credibility. How do you properly weight a survey like this? You can't exactly cross reference it with how people voted last time, income, likelihood of turnout, etc.
>> No. 31748 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:02 pm
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>>31743
Oh The Sun! Much better than The Daily Mail.
>> No. 31749 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:06 pm
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Sekuhara.png
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https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/qepiqi9xaf/YouGov%20Sexual%20harassment.pdf
There we go. Some figures and some definitions. I don't see a breakdown by age, however, and I'm not sure where the figure of 80% comes from (on the first page it says 52%.) so if anyone can explain that to me I'd be grateful.
>> No. 31750 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:07 pm
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>>31744
Around last August, the Daily Mail's url was wordfiltered to "If I post a link to this website again I will be banned". A month or two after that, we started banning people for posting it. Same goes for The Sun.
>> No. 31751 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:20 pm
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>>31746
You can't make women feel safer coming home.

If you take the case that's in the news of Sarah Everard then she is in bright clothing, she was in well lit areas, she was on the phone to her boyfriend whilst she was walking home. You can take all the precautions there are in the world but if some psychopath decides he wants to kidnap and murder someone then he's going to try and kidnap and murder someone once he has the opportunity.
>> No. 31752 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:26 pm
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>>31751
I feel very sad about this case; how are any of us safe if there are policeperson sexbeasts out there on the prowl.
>> No. 31753 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:32 pm
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>>31752

It's OK, Cressida Dick has promised extra police patrols in the area.

Oh.
>> No. 31754 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:37 pm
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>>31753
These ones?
https://www.victoriajones.uk/met-police
>> No. 31755 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:38 pm
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>>31749

Pinched or grabbed arse by a not friend/ partner is much higher than I would have imagined (34-37%) in Britian.
>> No. 31756 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:54 pm
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>>31755
I think a better thing to find out would be what proportion of men have pinched someone's arse.

Do a significant number of men do it or is it just a small number of serial bum gropers giving all of us a bad name? Is one man pinching 50 bums worse than 50 men pinching one bum?
>> No. 31757 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 3:59 pm
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>>31749
>looked at your breasts
>winked at you
>asked you out for a drink

Hang on..
>> No. 31758 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 4:07 pm
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>>31749
>Looked at your breasts
>Winked at you
>Asked you out for a drink
>Commented on your attractiveness

Hang on...
>> No. 31759 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 4:10 pm
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>>31758

Well done, you've found a way to ignore the problem.
>> No. 31760 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 4:12 pm
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>>31757

Yes it is a survey of general sexual behaviour, not exclusively sexual harassment.
>> No. 31761 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 4:42 pm
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>>31749

Not wanting to defend abusive behaviour, at all, but a good number of these definitions are dogshit.

It's the typical strategy of such charities, trying to gain attention to their cause by stretching definitions and presenting studies with quite vague research designs. In the end, it's always about money, and about agenda setting.

I have no problem at all believing that a large amount of abuse happens every day that no upstanding person could possibly defend, but that's not the game these charities are playing.

You could now say that the means justify the ends. But I wonder.
>> No. 31762 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 4:58 pm
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>>31761

The fact that one in eight women have been flashed, one in five have been asked for sexual favours and one in three have been groped on the arse should at least give us pause for thought.
>> No. 31763 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:00 pm
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>>31761

You're responding to a yougov survey.
>> No. 31764 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:10 pm
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What happened to flashing anyway? It seemed to be all the rage in the 00s but these days there's not a sausage outside of naked protests. I'm not saying I've seen any blokes in trench coats but there were plenty more tits back in my day.

You would think it would be a consequence of global warming if anything.
>> No. 31765 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:21 pm
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>>31763
Who commissioned YouGov to conduct the survey?
>> No. 31766 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:32 pm
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>>31765
Unless the Guardian is being very sneaky, I believe it was UN Women UK.
(Although it's possible that was a different survey that happened to be published around the same time. I can't imagine how else the figures from YouGov differ so widely from those quoted by The Guardian.)
>> No. 31767 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:33 pm
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>>31765

Not me guv.
>> No. 31768 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:41 pm
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Ah, here we go.
https://www.unwomenuk.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/APPG-UN-Women_Sexual-Harassment-Report_2021.pdf
The high figures come from this, which seemingly uses a different YouGov survey to >>31749 with similar questions. (Although the headline figures differ from those in The Guardian, with 71% of women being harassed and 86% among women 18-25. Possibly they're assuming a non-reporting %? I've only skimread the figures rather than reading the whole thing.)
>> No. 31769 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:47 pm
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>>31756
The arse grabbing percentage is a lot higher than the self reported harassment percentage. More women are getting unrequested arse grabbings than being asked out for drinks. That can't be right.
>> No. 31770 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 5:52 pm
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>>31762

Don't get me wrong, I think not even the most scrutinising look at the study's details will be able to absolve men, that is those men who harrass women, of any and all wrongdoing.

But if you indiscriminately class comments on somebody's physical attractiveness as harrassment, then the gamut is going to be quite wide. From somebody shouting "OI !!! GREAT TITS!!!" after a lass to somebody saying "I say, Ms. Brown, you look quite dashing in your outfit today!".

Also, asking somebody for a drink, I mean, come on. Really? Are you telling us that from now on, any lad who musters up the courage to ask a lass to go for a drink is going to be seen as some sort of sex pervert?

To be true to itself, the study would then also have to class it as harrassment when somebody looks at a woman's ankles.
>> No. 31771 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 6:04 pm
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>>31769
Different times, but just over 10 years ago I knew a lad whose pulling technique in clubs was to go behind women and feel their arse. It was surprisingly successful; if she turned around and smiled then he was in there, if not then he just moved on. No need to try and chat them up or waste time on smalltalk, a quick cop of their arse was enough of a barometer to quickly know whether he was in there or not. It probably helped that was about 6'5" and reasonably attractive.

I do also have female friends who bemoan the fact that #metoo means they're far less likely to receive an unsolicited grope in clubs; even if the person doing it is a complete creep they said it's nice to feel wanted. You can't win.
>> No. 31772 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 6:35 pm
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>>31771

>I do also have female friends who bemoan the fact that #metoo means they're far less likely to receive an unsolicited grope in clubs; even if the person doing it is a complete creep they said it's nice to feel wanted.

Am I really the only person who has always thought that grabbing a random lass's arse is wrong on a good number of levels?

I don't think I've ever heard any lass say that an arse grope by a stranger in a club is a reassuring sign that she's wanted.

I'm all for not overblowing the whole issue, I think there has been more than enough veering off into the muddy waters of "all men are rapists", but it's one thing to ask a lass to go have a drink, and quite another to make uninvited physical contact. The latter is a boundary that you have no right to cross unless you're given unmistakable permission that it's okay.
>> No. 31773 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 7:03 pm
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>>31742
You're still deflecting.
>> No. 31774 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 7:19 pm
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>>31773
And you're still being a massively disingenuous bellend, even by .gs standards.
>> No. 31775 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 7:20 pm
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>>31772

I know discovering women wanted to be treated the way society has told you should under no circumstances ever treat them is a head fuck. Makes you feel tricked.
>> No. 31776 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 7:42 pm
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>>31771
>>31772
My brother is a good few years older than me and it blew my mind going clubbing with him before and seeing him do this. I always just assumed he was particularly uncouth rather than out of touch until now. Sign of the times but he had his own mindfuck that I was screwing women of different races like it was nothing.

Time moves fast, I wonder what we do now that will be unthinkable in the future. Aside from owning a home.
>> No. 31777 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 7:56 pm
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>>31775

>I know discovering women wanted to be treated the way society has told you should under no circumstances ever treat them is a head fuck


I guess then there'll never be an explanation why one of my female friends when we were all about 20 nearly reported another friend to the police after he massively groped her in the back of a Renault Clio in a dark car park. She obviously wanted it, never mind that they were both waiting for her boyfriend to come back to the car, so whatever got into her pretty little head that she then nearly went to the coppers the next day was beyond everybody's reasoning. Women, eh.

I honestly couldn't believe she didn't go to the police. Our gropey friend was well known for that sort of thing after three or four beers, it wasn't the first time that he'd tried something like that. She apparently didn't even tell her boyfriend till the next day.
>> No. 31778 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 8:10 pm
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Can you maybe take a break from arguing about this pointless distraction to sign this petition please?
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-the-freedom-to-protest
>> No. 31779 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 8:17 pm
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>>31777

Some women want it. Evidently not all, and not from everyone or all the time. From what I can tell half of women want the Christopher Grey experience, the other half are appalled by the idea women would want that, and they need to be protected from their own desires.
>> No. 31780 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 8:35 pm
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Not that it particularly matters, but are there any women in this thread?

I honestly quite like that roughly 2/3 of the posts have been querying the statistics and picking over the definition of sexual harassment, which does incline me to believe it's mostly men, and sperglad(s)

>>31751
My partner asked me if I could have a conversation with my male friends about the treatment of women following the abductorapurder. I'm honestly not sure what it will achieve, my male friends are all progressives who either don't care about the specifics and just want people to be happy, or they're already vocal proponents. I imagine we'd agree on saying it's our fault if we chose to make a decision that led to our demise, knowing it was the unsafe choice. But that doesn't mean we deserved it etc.
>> No. 31781 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 8:44 pm
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>>31780
The only person who has brought it up with me is a female work colleague, who told me that she used to live in that part of London and had far more sense than to walk around there alone at night because it wasn't safe.

When the Ched Evans rape case was in the news I only ever heard victim blaming from other women, saying things like it was her fault for having so much to drink and getting herself in that position.

I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing as these were all from women in their late forties and early fifties.
>> No. 31782 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 8:59 pm
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>>31781

>When the Ched Evans rape case was in the news I only ever heard victim blaming from other women, saying things like it was her fault for having so much to drink and getting herself in that position.

My mum makes occasional remarks whenever there is a new rape case in the news that young women these days are asking for trouble by wearing all that revealing clothing.

I'm not sure if it's age related amnesia, but I know for a fact that pictures of my mum from her partying days in the 70s exist in a shoe box somewhere at her house where she's wearing disturbingly skimpy mini dresses.

So I'm not sure if her comments should really be understood as "I've been there", or if she has actually forgotten what she got up to in her day.
>> No. 31783 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:00 pm
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>>31782

>I'm not sure if her comments should really be understood as "I've been there", or if she has actually forgotten what she got up to in her day.
Alternately, your mum wanted it.
>> No. 31784 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:13 pm
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>>31780
>Not that it particularly matters, but are there any women in this thread?

Don't answer him ladets! All this time reputable academic journals such as the Daily Mail have warned us of a PC gone mad and now he's come to abduct all of us.
>> No. 31785 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:21 pm
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>>31784
>A Met police officer arrested after the disappearance of Sarah Everard was taken to hospital with a head injury he suffered while in custody.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56331950

He's either tried to kill himself by running head first into a wall, tried to prove he's a mentalist by injuring himself or other rozzers have fucked him up.

As a side point, when they say "human remains" have been found do they mean body parts rather than a full corpse?
>> No. 31786 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:38 pm
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>>31785

>As a side point, when they say "human remains" have been found do they mean body parts rather than a full corpse?

I think "human remains" always kind of indicates that the body was probably in a bit of a jumble. A leg here, a head there.
>> No. 31787 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:39 pm
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>>31785
I hope he's okay.
>> No. 31788 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 9:43 pm
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>>31785

They haven't been able to make a positive identification that it's her yet, so presumably some important bits are missing.
>> No. 31789 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:28 pm
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Green Party peer calls for 6pm curfew for men after the disappearance of Sarah Everard

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/green-party-peer-6pm-curfew-men-disappearance-of-sarah-everard-b923587.html

This seems to have sailed over a lot of people's heads, but she was quite clearly taking the piss out of the police telling women to stay at home to protect themselves.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-are-london-police-telling-women-to-stay-at-home-
>> No. 31790 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 10:40 pm
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>>31789
Allow me to piss you off: If there's a potential lady-slayer still on the loose it might make sense to advise women to stay indoors. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that on a situational basis. Perhaps you could avoid hurt feeling by saying everyone should stay indoors?

The argument that the police should focus on deterring men doesn't apply in this situation, it's a murderer on the loose.
>> No. 31791 Anonymous
11th March 2021
Thursday 11:40 pm
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>>31789

>Green Party peer calls for 6pm curfew for men after the disappearance of Sarah Everard

Fuck off. I don't go around raping women, and teh guvmint has no right to assume that I do.
>> No. 31792 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:07 am
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>>31790
So why not a curfew for men in the local area because there's a lady-slayer on the loose? He can't kidnap anyone if he'll be arrested for leaving his home after dark now can he?
>> No. 31793 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:14 am
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>>31791
Does anyone else get a faint whiff of hammers off this lad?
>> No. 31794 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:35 am
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>>31792
They'll cower in their abode until the curfew is over.
>> No. 31795 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 1:45 am
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There's plenty of places you won't find me walking around at night. Common sense that, and it's only sheltered middle class dickheads who bring out the "victim blaming" line about that.

Doesn't even have to be about gender or race or special treatment for anyone over anyone else. There's just this weird naive, studenty idealism that if only we tried a little harder to not all be awful bastards, nobody would get raped or mugged or have an awkward conversation on the tube; and somehow it's entered the political mainstream. I have to be honest. I think there's just a level of middle class comfort where you just lose all touch with reality, and you start believing in the fairytale land Guardian op ed writers live in.

You can't fix things just by talking about them more. If you could, perhaps 97% of women wouldn't still be getting sexually assaulted (according to whatever definition they used), because we've been having that conversation since about... What, 2008?
>> No. 31799 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:18 am
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The sad thing is that you can tell men how to help women feel safer but the ones that are a danger aren't the ones that are going to implement or follow any of that advice.

As for intervening, it really depends on the situation doesn't it? Who wants to volunteer to become a beating target to help save some poor girl from being harassed? How do you weigh up your options in that situation?
Unless you catch some weird public masturbator at it in which case they're more likely to be a feebale sadsack you could beat in a fight according to my internal ranking of sex fiends.
>> No. 31800 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 6:57 am
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>>31795

>we've been having that conversation since about... What, 2008?

1977, at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclaim_the_Night

>>31799

I once tried to intervene when a bloke was dragging a woman around by her hair outside Lime Street Station. She spat in my face.

People are complicated, but we have this overwhelming need to simplify everything into binaries. Erin Pizzey's story is absolutely wild:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey
>> No. 31801 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 7:12 am
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>Street harassment is how men mark out public spaces as their own, making women into trespassers on male territory. Behavioural psychologists have observed how male pedestrians crowd women’s personal space at cashpoints and traffic lights, how all-male groups take up more pavement space, and how men make more antisocial noises in public than women, considering it more acceptable to speak on mobile phones at checkouts or in train carriages. Women are more distressed than men by such unwanted public noise, and by having to challenge its perpetrators. We don’t know how these encounters might escalate.

>This isn’t a new problem. In fact, men have long sought to exclude women from public spaces and make them feel uncomfortable. In the 19th century, pubs, saloons and restaurants in the UK and US were almost exclusively male spaces. State ordinances forbade women from entering, or segregated them off into “ladies’ snugs”. In 1941, one male British pub-goer refused to use the word “pub” to refer to a mixed-sex establishment: “pub” was short for “public house”, and he reasoned that women therefore didn’t belong in a “pub”, in the same way they didn’t belong in “public”.

>In formally segregated spaces, women were generally only tolerated if they were there to serve men: as prostitutes or waitresses. Men applied a similar logic to all public spaces: if they treated all women on the street in the way they treated servants or prostitutes, it marked out those spaces as male domains, and suggested that women entering them consented to their own abuse. As the zoologist Edwin Ray Lankester, the third director of the Natural History Museum, wrote, if women “really do wish to be left alone”, they should “avoid the haunts of men”. The haunts of men were all public spaces, and it would therefore be “comic” for a woman to “object being spoken to in the street”.

>Many men today still appear to believe in a similar social contract. By abusing and harassing women, men make public spaces their own – and by entering those spaces, they perceive that women acquiesce to their abuse. Frequently the onus to prevent these behaviours falls on women rather than men. Many women will be familiar with advice such as holding your keys when you walk home, avoiding listening to music, not getting drunk, travelling on well-lit roads, or shouting “fire” rather than “rape” in the case of assault, because the former is taken more seriously. Rather than taking boys and men aside and teaching them not to harass, assault or murder us, the responsibility for preventing male violence has been placed on women’s conduct.

>We know that it’s a minority of men who rape and murder women. But a great many engage in continual, low-level, unrecorded intimidation that hints towards assault and is threatening to women who they believe to have “strayed” into their territory. It is difficult to overstate the damage this has done to women. Is it any wonder that we are much more likely to suffer anxiety and agoraphobia than men? Fear of male abuse has led women to give up once-loved activities, or stop walking or running alone. Women’s experience of street harassment rockets during adolescence, when many teenage girls retreat to their bedrooms, as “the only place in the world [they] feel safe”, as one told a researcher in 2001. Too often, women feel unsupported by authorities who are supposed to protect us. It’s difficult to feel that much has changed since a US judge refused to prosecute street harassment in 1976, because it was “generally accepted behaviour [that is] too frequent for a justice system to handle”.

>What’s missing from discussions about women’s fears is a focus on men. Men’s harassment and assault of women is part of a sustained, long-term attempt to roll back advances in women’s rights and restrict our presence in public spaces. Some well-intentioned individual men ask how they can change their behaviours to make us feel calmer and safer, and are advised to cross the road to ensure they do not walk behind us at night. But we need solutions that rise above individual behaviour, and tackle men’s abuse and intimidation of women as a systemic problem. This is an urgent frontier for women’s rights.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/11/women-feel-safe-public-spaces-men-behaviour-change
>> No. 31802 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 7:22 am
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>>31800

People aren't that complicated they just love certain myths. Women will always be seen as the victims of society regardless of circumstances and evidence their are just too many people who benefit from the idea.
>> No. 31803 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 7:37 am
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>>31801

I was fully behind feminism until having read a similar (but academic) article in university. Where it made it abundantly clear that feminism was regularly on par with conspiracy theories about Jews controlling everything purporting the hidden deliberate controlling orchestrated agenda of men.
>> No. 31804 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 8:24 am
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>>31799
>The sad thing is that you can tell men how to help women feel safer but the ones that are a danger aren't the ones that are going to implement or follow any of that advice.

There's been plenty of instances of men pretending to be 'allies' to women to get into their knickers and engaging in extremely predatory behaviour. I haven't seen any evidence that these courses telling men not to rape actually work.
>> No. 31805 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 8:49 am
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>>31800
>I once tried to intervene when a bloke was dragging a woman around by her hair outside Lime Street Station. She spat in my face.

The "what men can do" posts floating about the social media ether at the moment are frighteningly naïve, and I genuinely worry for the people that attempt to follow the advice. This goes especially for the lads who are being pressured to intervene; statistics repeatedly show men are more frequently the victims of violence, and especially young men.
>> No. 31806 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 9:12 am
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>>31805
Every time I've seen someone try and break up a domestic happening in public they've ended up getting turned on by both parties.
>> No. 31807 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 9:17 am
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>>31806

The answer is obvious really, when things become so normal and routine they will do it in public, disrupting it is a violation of the norm.
>> No. 31808 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 9:18 am
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>>31801

Is this being posted as a serious thing, or to laugh at? I can't quite tell. Stuff like "considering it more acceptable to speak on mobile phones at checkouts or in train carriages." You mean speaking in public spaces? This is just too silly.

>In 1941, one male British pub-goer refused to use the word “pub” to refer to a mixed-sex establishment: “pub” was short for “public house”, and he reasoned that women therefore didn’t belong in a “pub”, in the same way they didn’t belong in “public”.

This is crap.

>As the zoologist Edwin Ray Lankester, the third director of the Natural History Museum, wrote, if women “really do wish to be left alone”, they should “avoid the haunts of men”. The haunts of men were all public spaces, and it would therefore be “comic” for a woman to “object being spoken to in the street”.

This is absolute bollocks.
>> No. 31809 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 9:50 am
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>>31804

I haven't seen any evidence to convince me that isn't true of every single man calling himself an ally or male fisherperson or what have you. Humans are simpler than we like to delude ourselves, and any bloke going along with this nonsense is ultimately doing it because he thinks it's a better mating strategy. We've constructed a hell of a lot of fancy shite to ponder over and navel gaze about, but ultimately human behaviour all boils down to the primal need to eat, and to fuck.

The reason I scoff at it is because life has taught me the far better route is to simply disregard any of it and treat women as you would any other person, instead of bending over backwards to show how much you claim to respect and value them. It's a crazy idea I know, but they actually like you better if you treat them with the indifference you'd treat any other person you aren't friends with. If you ask me that's much more actually respectful to begin with.
>> No. 31810 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 10:08 am
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>>31801
>Women are more distressed than men by such unwanted public noise, and by having to challenge its perpetrators. We don’t know how these encounters might escalate.
Is testosterone supposed to have made me into a god? Am I not supposed to fear violence, or does it not matter much if I get beat up? I sense that I'm much more likely to get into a fight for telling groups of lads they're now allowed to answer their phones in Sainsbury's because it's mildly annoying to me.

I don't like the way she goes from this positing a sort of spectrum from men talking on the phone, to actual street harassment, to women getting murdered. These are different things and they don't all always spring from men wanting to control public space or whatever she's getting at.

>Rather than taking boys and men aside and teaching them not to harass, assault or murder us, the responsibility for preventing male violence has been placed on women’s conduct.
This isn't true. Harassment, assault, and murder are all crimes, everybody knows they're not allowed. Does she really, honestly believe that serial killers are the way they are because nobody told them murder was a crime?

Something I never see acknowledged in these articles is that one of the facets of yer patriarchy is the idea that women are stupid and weak and need to be protected for their own good. She doesn't even hint at what political solution does she wants. Armed woman's patrols? Harsher policing? A curfew for men? Segregation?
>> No. 31811 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 10:35 am
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>>31810
This is making me quite angry tbh. It's hard to have a conversation about because of these bizarrely constructed opinions.

>treat women as you would any other person, instead of bending over backwards to show how much you claim to respect and value them. It's a crazy idea I know, but they actually like you better if you treat them with the indifference you'd treat any other person you aren't friends with. If you ask me that's much more actually respectful to begin with.

Same principle as colourblind racism? Tbh I agree, individuals aren't statistics. We need to establish a new normal, if we keep trying to make things fair then it's just going to be an escalating war of double standards.

The amount of times I've called someone a 'cunt' on rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk, and had a response of "How dare you call a woman a cunt" etc etc. Love, I had no idea of your gender before this, it's just that you were being a cunt. It's like women and men communicate completely differently online, and women expect men to communicate like women and then get offended when they don't.
>> No. 31812 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 11:35 am
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>>31811
>This is making me quite angry tbh. It's hard to have a conversation about because of these bizarrely constructed opinions.

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the brain rot that the Guardian regularly churns out pushes more people towards the right than the Mail does.
>> No. 31813 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:23 pm
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>>31809

There are other possibilities, Internalised misandry, men are made to feel ashamed for being born and of their gender indirectly by being taught men have done everything bad in some circles, it isn't a shock if they hate themselves and other men.
The other I've seen is overcompensation (in the homophobes are closet homosexuals sense) I had a friend go fully righteous about treatment of women all over Facebook to the point that my stance of I don't need to treat women better, I need to measure them by the same standards as men, angered him, he decided I had some secret hatred of women he actually openly asked it once. Within a few years he had slipped into a cycle of physically assaulting his partners, it is a consistent pattern I have found if you scratch below the surface of a SJW motives you'll find an arsehole cloaking themselves with good intentions.
>> No. 31814 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:23 pm
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>>31792
How do we know that it's a man?

>>31795
>There's plenty of places you won't find me walking around at night. Common sense that, and it's only sheltered middle class dickheads who bring out the "victim blaming" line about that.

Nah, it's more mysterious than that - I walk all over the place at night and always have because I grew up on the outskirts of my hometown. I always wear headphones too and I've done this in multiple locations at all hours. Not once have I had a problem but some people do like they're magnets for nutters.

Admittedly I'm a bloke but you would think that, by now, I'd have been set upon by a gang of ruffians.
>> No. 31815 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:31 pm
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>>31814
It's not mysterious, it's just relatively very rare and you'll easily have some people experiencing multiple assaults, and others who've experienced none despite the exact same behaviour in similar locations. You're at the start of the bell curve, other people are at the end.

Like afaik, these people don't set up shop in the same place every day. It's simply random chance as to whether you get a negative interaction. The longer you're out, the higher than chance will be. But it's still a relatively low chance overall.
>> No. 31817 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 12:47 pm
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>I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the brain rot that the Guardian regularly churns out pushes more people towards the right than the Mail does.

Can't say that, that's victim blaming. Those people were obviously all misogynist nazis before, if it takes this little to galvanize them. Imagine being annoyed at someone just because they're attacking your identity. Only racists do that.
>> No. 31818 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 1:00 pm
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Much as It's a given that nobody, man or woman, deserves to become a victim of any kind of physical violence at all, our streets are safe. Crime statistics show Britain as a safe place to live, and that includes women walking home at night. Women can't just feel safe, they are safe. And if you need any more convincing, look at figures of (sexual) physical violence in many third-world shitehole major cities. They have a problem with street violence. We, for all intents and purposes, do not.

I don't know what kind of utopian world you are living in where crime doesn't happen at all. But you are by several magnitudes more likely to be fatally hit by a car in traffic in the UK on any given day than to be dismembered by some crazed sex offender.

Does that make it ok, when there are still thousands of rape cases with female victims each year? No, absolutely not. Again, nobody deserves to become a victim, and ideally, there would be no victims at all. But that isn't how reality works. No amount of harsh sentencing and no violence prevention programmes will deter a certain residual number of violent offenders with a mind to it and the determination to hurt an innocent woman, or man.

I've had this conversation with a friend who's a dyed in the wool fisherperson, and she keeps saying that even if crime numbers are low compared to other countries, women just don't feel safe at night on the streets. But I'm sorry, if crime statistics not only prove Britain as a safe Western developed country to live but also show that men actually become victims of physical violence more than twice as often as women, then you can't hold half of the entire population hostage and mark all men as potential rapists by imposing a blanket curfew on them, just so that you get to keep ignoring reality.


Further reading:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/thenatureofviolentcrimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2018#which-groups-of-people-are-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-violent-crime
>> No. 31819 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 1:15 pm
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>>31818
>men actually become victims of physical violence more than twice as often as women

This often gets brushed aside during the debate; it is a lot more dangerous to be a man walking alone in public than it is for a woman. I suppose it's because you'll be accused of being a MRA loon if you bring it up.
>> No. 31821 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 1:46 pm
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>>31819

>I suppose it's because you'll be accused of being a MRA loon if you bring it up.

The problem with true MRAs is that some of them, at least the most vocal ones, have about the same amount of irrational problems with women as a good number of rad fems have with men.

I think gender equality is a very good idea, and women should have the same rights - and responsibilities - as men. And I think that it's great that women's rights have come such a long way. But I draw the line where the idea of gender equality turns itself on its head and openly, and sometimes more tacitly discriminates against men.

But I'm as little a fisherperson as I would accept the label MRA. Both don't accurately represent my actual way of thinking. I'm for true gender equality, and that means rejecting a good number of fisherperson standpoints when they veer into territory where it's no longer just about that, and where I as a lad feel discriminated against. Case in point: being put under a curfew that's ostensibly meant to protect women from rapists, when I would never in a million years have it in me to rape somebody.
>> No. 31822 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:01 pm
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>>31819
But it's men who are assaulting other men. Placing all men under curfew would be doubly effective in that it would both supress the demand for and supply of victims.
>> No. 31823 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:05 pm
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>>31819

How many of these men are being assaulted by women?
>> No. 31824 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:10 pm
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>>31822

Domestic abuse cases the majority of the time the women is the attacker, maybe these men wouldn't need to be out on the street at night if it was safe to go home.
>> No. 31825 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:15 pm
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>>31822
>But it's men who are assaulting other men

Then there should be campaigns telling men not to assault other men.
>> No. 31826 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:26 pm
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>>31825

Are there campaigns telling men not to assault women?
>> No. 31827 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:41 pm
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>>31826
Yes. Issues affecting men, such as the high suicide rate, don't get taken as seriously by society as issues affecting women.
>> No. 31828 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 2:48 pm
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>>31826
I remember one in particular which had a guy with brain damage in it who had been permanently quadraspazzed on a life glug by a single punch and how the guy who did it was in jail.
>> No. 31829 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 3:05 pm
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>>31818
Thinking aloud, is it not possible that you get into a cycle here where if women don't feel safe they're more inclined to support groups that advocate reducing violence against women. But the statements those charities put out about how much violence women experience will make women feel less safe, which will make more people inclined to support those charities, giving them greater resources and influence to highlight the problem, which might well make the problem of violence less of an issue - but by constantly raising awareness it's going to make the perception of the problem (and so the feeling of being unsafe) much greater.

(In the same way that the relationship between fear of crime has very little if any relationship to the actual level of crime being committed.)
>> No. 31830 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 3:13 pm
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>>31829

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/
>> No. 31831 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 3:30 pm
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>>31818
>>31819
>I've had this conversation with a friend who's a dyed in the wool fisherperson, and she keeps saying that even if crime numbers are low compared to other countries, women just don't feel safe at night on the streets. But I'm sorry, if crime statistics not only prove Britain as a safe Western developed country to live but also show that men actually become victims of physical violence more than twice as often as women

I reckon you would be accused of gaslighting for saying this. A word that seemed to spring from nowhere into the public discourse a few years back.
>> No. 31832 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 3:58 pm
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I'm a man and I don't feel safe walking home, not everywhere. There are parts of my town I simply wouldn't go at night, places I probably wouldn't even drive through.

That doesn't mean women don't have it worse, though. I think this thread, and any like it, are really arguing two different points that run parallel enough to seem like the same thing - street crime happens, and women are harassed often. Both are real, both can often be linked, but they are two separate things with two separate societal root causes.

I know men and women who have been attacked on the street, I know men and women who have been gravely injured in fights, and I know men and women who have been sexually assaulted. I don't think it happens as often as domestic violence, or road traffic accidents, or suicide, but it's still something that happens often enough that we're all aware of it. And just because I've never been attacked in the street, doesn't mean I'm thick enough to think that means it doesn't happen.

Arguing about the exact degree of violence, about what counts as harassment and what doesn't, about which gender suffers the crime more, is really, really fucking missing the point. We're a country with more surveillance per head than nearly any other, with a reasonably well funded police system, so why do we not feel safer?

Obviously I get that because an attractive white woman died, we're going to be in hysterics about it for a couple of weeks, but it's as good a time as any to examine the violence that can and does happen to all of us.
>> No. 31833 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 5:17 pm
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>>31829

It's mean world syndrome.

If you ask the average person in the street off the top of their head if they think crime of all kinds has risen in the last couple of years, or really if any other marker of a disintegrating society has worsened, you will more than likely get a resounding "yes" from them. Except, that just isn't true. Violent crime is at one of its lowest levels that we've ever seen, just like property theft, juvenile delinquency, or even mass poverty and unemployment.

In fact, many indicators of overall quality of life in Britain are the best they've ever been.

It's a pretty muddy and ugly world that some of these charities operate in. On the one hand, you can't argue against the fact that at least in theory, they are dedicated to respectable causes that deserve support and attention. Women shouldn't have to fear violence, sexual or otherwise. Prostitutes or migrant workers shouldn't be subject to human trafficking. And children are among the weakest members of society, and need society's special protection.

The problem is, if we do a little thought experiment, then if those charities actually succeeded at eliminating all those social ills, then they would suddenly make themselves obsolete. Who needs a charity combatting violence against women, if women no longer experience any violence. And although charities often claim to be non-profit and driven by volunteer work, a good few paychecks still always depend on donations, subsidies, and grants.

And so the only way for a lot of those charities to ensure their own existence is by painting a picture of the particular problem they deal with continuedly getting worse. And they do that either by cooking up dodgy statistics, or by campaigning for changes in the law that make things rape by definition which really shouldn't be, even if they may (or may not) count as a separate offence against a person in their own right.

There's also a lot of ideological underpinning with these women's charities. For a small, but significant and vociferous number of radical fisherpersons, it's a way of channelling their anger against the male gender in general. And so, ideology becomes methodology. Because it's your deeply-held belief that all men are rapists, you do anything you can to influence public opinion so that the rest of the world starts thinking the same.
>> No. 31834 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 5:24 pm
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>>31832
Suicide's much rarer than you seem to think it is.
>> No. 31835 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 5:34 pm
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It's almost as if people feel like crimes that affect people like them are proportionally higher or need to be prioritised more.
>> No. 31836 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 5:46 pm
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>>31834

Leading cause of death under the age of 45.
>> No. 31838 Anonymous
12th March 2021
Friday 11:39 pm
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>>31823

I know you think you're being clever about which demographic does what, here, but you're playing with fire. You really won't like what happens if we bring race into that question.
>> No. 31840 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 1:04 am
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>>31838

You're so close to getting my point.
>> No. 31842 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 2:17 am
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>>31830
Are you really linking to alt-right bollocks in a thread about sexual harassment>
>> No. 31852 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 9:41 am
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>>31840

Perhaps you should directly state the point so that it can be discussed, and to avoid any misinterpretation.
>> No. 31853 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 11:02 am
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>>31852

You'd like that, wouldn't you. Slut.
>> No. 31856 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 12:11 pm
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>>31842
Is it? I just read the article and it seemed to be a perfectly reasoned musing about how controversy garners attention over more balanced stances.
>> No. 31861 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 1:31 pm
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>>31856
It's easier to dismiss something as 'alt-right' than it is to deconstruct what has actually been said.
>> No. 31862 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 1:34 pm
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>>31856
The author advocates for scientific racism, human biodiversity, inherent gender differences, and various other pseudoscientific bullshit.
>> No. 31868 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 3:12 pm
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>>31862

>inherent gender differences

Not him, and I've got no dog in this fight, but you really believe that inherent gender differences are "pseudoscientific bullshit'?
>> No. 31869 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 3:25 pm
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>>31862
I've skimmed it as it's a surprisingly large article, and couldn't find any of that stuff. Can you point me to the specific statements?
>> No. 31872 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 3:31 pm
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>>31869
"The author advocates for", not "The article advocates for".
>> No. 31873 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 3:48 pm
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>>31872

That's not what I asked you.

Do you believe there are no inherent, gender based differences between men and women?
>> No. 31874 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 3:49 pm
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>>31873

That's not what you asked him either. You asked him "Can you point me to the specific statements?" and I provided you with contextual information that rendered the question irrelevant.
>> No. 31875 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 4:01 pm
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>>31874
That was actually me asking about specifics, not him, or you.

I'm basically suspicious that they're saying not to trust a fair article because they don't like the source.

Also whichever one of us said "inherent gender difference" is pseudoscience, what on earth do you mean by that?
>> No. 31876 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 4:06 pm
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>>31875

Why did he complain about me not answering the question he asked someone else, then?

>I'm basically suspicious that they're saying not to trust a fair article because they don't like the source.
I don't know the source or why the other lad thinks it's all those things, whether or not it is (I have a sneaking suspicion I've seen it slated for being similar things in the past though) but if someone linked to an apparently reasonable argument made by Otis Eugene "Gene" Ray, that would itself be a reason to question how reasonable it really is.
>> No. 31879 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 5:03 pm
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>>31876
You're right, it's fair to consider the context, but if the points and argument are solid, then it's worth looking at? This is moot considering I can't be arsed to read the whole thing.

I'd definitely be loathe to take an argument from Otis Ray at face value, he's obviously quite mental. The earth is clearly hollow.


>> No. 31880 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 5:07 pm
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>>31879
*concave. It's somewhat different.
>> No. 31882 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 5:33 pm
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>>31879
>but if the points and argument are solid, then it's worth looking at?
I'll never know if they are because as far as I'm concerned, they're written by some nutbar so I don't care to find out. He doesn't believe in a concave earth, obviously his reasoning is generally spurious.
>> No. 31884 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 5:51 pm
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>>31875
>I'm basically suspicious that they're saying not to trust a fair article because they don't like the source.
I'm basically suspicious that you think a neoreactionary who thinks there's a biological basis for racism and sexism is capable of writing a "fair" article.
>> No. 31887 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 7:06 pm
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>>31884
You've still not given any direct quote demonstrating your accusations. Why would I just take your word for it? I obviously can't be arsed to read anything he's written, so if you want me to believe something, you can provide a quote.

Either way, a good point is a good point. If you don't trust the source, then it's good to find out *why* that source wanted you to learn that particular point and what it might have intentionally omitted or obfuscated. For that and other reasons, it's useful to bear the source in mind, but ignoring verifiable information because you don't like the source is wilful ignorance.

Now chad up and stop being disingenuous, I'm happy to hear you out if you've got a point to make.
>> No. 31888 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 7:17 pm
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>>31887
>You've still not given any direct quote demonstrating your accusations.
If only there were some way of finding information on the Web. That would be a cool idea, someone could make millions out of it.

>ignoring verifiable information
Yeah, I suspected you might be arguing in bad faith.
>> No. 31889 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 8:18 pm
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I mean, if you've got sone kind of stake in denying that races or sexism have actual biological differences, then I have to assume you're basically the same thing as a flat earther or anti-vaxxer, but woke.
>> No. 31891 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 8:31 pm
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>>31889
>sexism have actual biological differences
The bloody sexisms, there's loads of them these days, the sexisms.

God, fuck off you thick shit.
>> No. 31893 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 9:15 pm
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>>31889

>I mean, if you've got sone kind of stake in denying that races or sexism have actual biological differences, then I have to assume you're basically the same thing as a flat earther or anti-vaxxer


Thank you.

Even if genetic differences between the sexes and between ethnicities are a touchy issue, and acknowledging that they have been used in abundance throughout human history to separate humans with privilege from those who were denied it, you cannot honestly say that they don't exist.

Gender studies, for example, calls the insurmountable heap of evidence from bio and genetic science that men and women are different a "biologism". In other words, they see it as an ideologically motivated determinism that differences between the sexes should exist, when they feel they don't.

Fair enough, but the play rules are still that in order to debunk a scientific theory, even if it's one you so vehemently disagree with, you have to do so by coming up with scientifically solid evidence that debunks the original accepted standard of knowledge thus far.

Gender studies does not do that. And in terms of scientific proof to the contrary, it really always has been, and still is pretty empty handed. Instead, it decries every demand to produce solid, scientifically acceptable evidence for its claims as a hostile attack on itself. And it that sense, gender studies is no better than any garden-variety conspiracy theory.
>> No. 31894 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 9:23 pm
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>>31884
Identifying SSC as neoreactionary is slightly misplaced. (in the sort of way that getting your Stalinists and your Maoists mixed up) He's more of an insufferable rationalist type. If I remember correctly he lives in a polycule, which "actual" neoreactionaries mock him for, and his big thing is "effective altruism" (charity... but ~rational~!) which in theory leads to socially progressive ends, even if in practice and due to what sort of social grouping it's around, it's just Californian ideology nonsense that puts us on the same road to free market phrenology as Nick Land.

The article itself is basically fine. The thing about neoreactionaries, "rationalists" and all that crowd is that they're actually capable of writing some insightful things. They're some of the few people outside an academic concept willing to talk about social signalling, not simply in the sense of using "the shipping forecast" as a quick slur on someone's integrity, but looking at how it can have a systemic effect. In SSC's case this goes as far as the tediously self referential "As I am writing this, I could just be trying to signal that I am very smart and fair...". It's unfortunate that there's nobody on the left doing similar analysis, but that's what your stuck with. Just going "that's neoreactionary, neoreaction is bad, so I won't read any of it" seems like a dangerous mistake when neoreactionaries are (for all their wrongness and insanity) probably the smartest people on the right today and some of the best placed in the disproportionately socially influential tech sector. You've got to know your enemy to fight them - and if your enemy can teach you a few things about society while you're at it, so much the better.
(But don't go overboard, read neoreactionaries in moderation - not because you might become one, but because their chief export is insufferably long and often pointless essays. They're worse than bloody communists.)

Anyway, the article is fine as it goes. No reheated phrenology or any of that sort of thing. A bit insufferably intellectual in tone, but I would highly recommend reading it.
>> No. 31900 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 10:02 pm
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>>31894
>polycule

Who keeps inventing all these words and why are they drawing up these absurd trees, isn't sex supposed to be fun?
>> No. 31902 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 11:00 pm
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>>31893
>cannot honestly say that they don't exist.
We can honestly say they don't exist because science tells us they don't exist. There is no substantive "genetic difference" between races, and the "genetic difference" between men and women is one fucking chromosome. The idea that these somehow account for the different status afforded to them is the same debunked nonsense advanced by the likes of The Bell Curve and James Damore.
>> No. 31904 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 11:13 pm
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>>31894
>Identifying SSC as neoreactionary is slightly misplaced
It really isn't. Here he is literally embracing scientific racism.
>> No. 31907 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 11:39 pm
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>>31902

>the "genetic difference" between men and women is one fucking chromosome

So there is a difference.

How "substantiative" that difference is is beyond a pointless discussion- It's substantiative enough to give one a cock and the other a fanny, and thereby grant humans the ability to reproduce.

Nobody is trying to say men and women are a different species you thick fucking twat.
>> No. 31908 Anonymous
13th March 2021
Saturday 11:45 pm
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>>31907
Apart from John Gray, of course.
>> No. 31909 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:02 am
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>>31907
>So there is a difference.
Nobody is saying there isn't a generic difference. What is being said is that these don't result in any inherent difference that makes men and women more or less suited to particular tasks.

That is Other Place-level shitposting, lad.
>> No. 31910 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:34 am
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>>31909
> What is being said is that these don't result in any inherent difference that makes men and women more or less suited to particular tasks.
What about breastfeeding? Is there any inherit difference that makes one sex more suitable for that task?
>> No. 31911 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:36 am
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How has someone being murdered ended up with me being told I should tell my mates off for looking at a girl's arse? That seems like a valid area for discussion in of itself but I'm not comfortable with the association.
>> No. 31912 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:37 am
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>>31910
>That is Other Place-level shitposting, lad.
>> No. 31913 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:45 am
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>>31910
He's being daft for the sake of it, lad. Go to bed.

>>31911
You ought to have a word with your Mrs, lad. It's not right that she's 'asking' you to police your friends for behaviour she doesn't like.
>> No. 31914 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 1:36 am
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>>31904
Again, to my ears this is like saying "It's okay to call Maoists 'Stalinists' because they both embrace violent revolution".
For my money I think it's still more accurate to call him a "Rationalist", most "Rationalists" I've seen tend towards partaking in playground phrenology anyway.
>> No. 31917 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:02 am
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>>31914
I'm not calling a Maoist Stalinist. I'm saying that this particular so-called Maoist seems to be saying an awful lot of Stalinist things, to the point of telling someone in an email to not reveal that he's actually a Stalinist.
>> No. 31918 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:02 am
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>>31911

Those erotic femdom stories I sometimes read for a guilty wank where it's matriarchal society and all men have to wear chastity cages by law are coming true.
>> No. 31919 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:14 am
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>>31917
When those Stalinist things are things that a lot of Maoists also say it seems more apt to suppose that both are Marxists, or where they differ from Marx, Marxist-Leninist(+/- Maoist)s.

In conclusion, Rationalists are racist.
>> No. 31920 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:25 am
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Women are indistinguishable biologically from men which is why I believe we should remove the outdated sexist segregation in sports.
>> No. 31921 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:31 am
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>>31919
If you want to argue that the person who espouses alt-right positions, advances alt-right arguments, supports and is supported by alt-right types is somehow not alt-right, knock yourself out.
>> No. 31922 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:47 am
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>>31921
I appreciate that dropping the explanatory metaphor for the comedy value of a conclusion that doesn't obviously follow unless you've understood the confusing metaphor perfectly wasn't the best way to convey my point, so I'll come out and say what I was getting at:
In this case "alt right" (or "racist") is analogous to "Marxist". Stalinists and Maoists both tend to be Marxists, Neoreactionaries and Rationalists both tend to be alt right or racist. The advantage of more specific terminology is that it lets you disentangle your Mao from your Rosa Luxemburg and your Hitler from your Moldbug - once you stop doing that the "neo" in "neoreactionary" exists only to waste a few bytes of RAM.
>> No. 31923 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 4:05 am
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>>31922
You say that as if the distinction is somehow important or relevant here.
>> No. 31924 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 4:18 am
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>>31923
When you start saying Stalin is a Maoist because he's saying Marxist things people who have a passing familiarity with the subject matter (and those who go off and skimread to develop their own understanding) might get it into their heads that you have no idea what you're talking about, even if you're broadly correct and simply don't care for the distinction.

Call a spade a spade, a trowel a trowel, and this thread "maintained by Railtrack Plc."
>> No. 31925 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 4:58 am
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>>31902

We can't meaningfully discuss the issue of gender-based violence without acknowledging the huge sex disparity in the capacity for violence - not the propensity towards violent behaviour, but the simple physical ability to effect violence.

Men are much, much stronger than women. The average woman has about half of the upper body strength of the average man; elite female judo players have grip strengths that would put them in the bottom 25% of all men. That statement shouldn't be particularly controversial, but it is.

If we pretend there's no sex difference in strength, then why should women fear violence being inflicted upon them by men? The only logical answer would be that men (or at least some men) are intrinsically monstrous, while women (or at least most women) are so intrinsically virtuous to render them defenceless. This line of reasoning may sound familiar if you've been following the commentosphere over the past few days.

This fact becomes highly relevant when we start looking at domestic violence. There's very strong evidence to show that men are no more likely to initiate violent behaviour in an intimate partner relationship than women, but domestic violence is widely perceived as a gendered issue. Why? Again, we return to sex differences in strength and the denial thereof. Women are just as likely to hit men as vice-versa, but there's a huge asymmetry in the amount of damage that the sexes can inflict on each other.

There's no evidence to support the idea that "toxic masculinity" makes men believe that they have the right to hit their partners, because men aren't actually any more likely to hit their partners than women; domestic violence is at least as prevalent in lesbian relationships as heterosexual relationships. Many fisherperson academics attempt to explain these facts with tenuous arguments about internalised homophobia or the imitation of heteronormative behaviour, but there's a far more straightforward explanation - women aren't inherently less prone to perpetrating violence against their partners, they just tend to lack the physical capacity to inflict serious violent harms on men or to defend themselves against male violence.

If we cherry-pick the truths that we choose to acknowledge, we inevitably end up in a terrible muddle and inevitably degrade our ability to usefully act towards our shared aims. Men aren't monsters, but we are far more dangerous when we choose to behave monstrously for very straightforward biological reasons. All people deserve equal treatment in society, but that aspiration doesn't negate the reality of biological difference; pretending that we're all exactly the same just hampers our ability to work towards a more equal society.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00421-006-0351-1

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jappl.1991.71.2.644

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00235103

https://www.jstor.org/stable/584365

https://doi.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2F0033-2909.126.5.651

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J155v06n01_11
>> No. 31926 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 8:30 am
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>>31925
>Men aren't monsters, but we are far more dangerous when we choose to behave monstrously for very straightforward biological reasons.

Otherlad here. I agree that there are innate biological differences between men and women at a population level, and I don't think anything I'll say here really diminishes your points, but feel I need to add something: I think physical capacity is only one of the contributing factors to how "monstrous" people can be when they're violent.

I haven't researched this and don't have any hard data, but for what my personal experience is worth, I think 1) willingness to commit violence and 2) capacity to "get away with it" are at least as important as your physical capacity when it comes to the kind of injuries you inflict on someone.

Or to put it more bluntly, the formula for physical capacity can be changed the moment someone picks up a heavy or sharp object, or if certain kinds of violence are accepted as "normal" (e.g. a woman slapping a man in the face). So as a complimentary point, I think it's probably true that our different physical capacities also lead to very strong kinds of social conditioning which determine how men and women express violence. There's a combination of biology and social expectations based on biology at play here.
>> No. 31927 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 8:43 am
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There's something quite eerie about phone lights at vigils replacing candles and lighters.

Anyway, this thread seems to be well and truly in "All Lives Matter" territory. Not all men are violent or engage in sexual harassment, but there's no way of knowing which ones will and now you can't even trust the police to keep you safe; the theory with Sarah Everard is that copper used his badge to get her in his car.
>> No. 31928 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:01 am
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>>31925
>We can't meaningfully discuss the issue of gender-based violence without acknowledging the huge sex disparity in the capacity for violence
I'm not entirely sure what any of this has to do with gender essentialism.
>> No. 31929 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 10:18 am
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>>31928

There's a difference between essentialism and biological determinism lad, keep up.

I wonder if trans men inherit all the toxic masculinity and become woman beaters when they transition, but still hit like a wet noodle. Or does all the testosterone in their hormone therapy bridge the gap?
>> No. 31930 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 10:38 am
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>>31929
Depends how young they start really. A trans man on T can gain a lot more muscle quickly than a woman, but starting out on it in your early 20s puts you at a big disadvantage and your bones will never be as strong.
>> No. 31931 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 10:46 am
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>>31925
>this fact becomes highly relevant when we start looking at domestic violence. There's very strong evidence to show that men are no more likely to initiate violent behaviour in an intimate partner relationship than women, but domestic violence is widely perceived as a gendered issue.

That is a very weasel word way of saying women beat their partners far more than men do. Which is what the science universally says.
>> No. 31932 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 10:57 am
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On the positive side, the police violence last night has brought some attention to the policing act that Patel's bringing in.
>> No. 31933 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:14 am
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>>31932

I didn't see any police violence. I did see the police arrest a handful of people who were clearly acting in breach of the Coronavirus Act and the Public Order Act. The optics were terrible, but it strikes me as hypocritical that the same people who were decrying the anti-lockdown protests are now decrying the police for enforcing lockdown laws. It all reeks of tribalism over principle.
>> No. 31934 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:20 am
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If we discuss gender differences, one mistake we must not make is to have our cake and eat it too when it comes to painting men as the defective, violence-prone gender.

What I mean is, it seems that in public debate about what it means to be a bloke, oftentimes you see a focus on negative things. Toxic masculinity, an alleged predisposition for violence, the assumption of male privilege, all that kind of thing. So that gender differences become acknowledged just enough to put men in a bad light while at the same time calling women the better gender, but not enough to allow the notion that there are actually things that men do better than women, and which are of value to society.

Toxic masculinity itself is a term invented by fisherpersons, and just for the obvious purpose of denigrating the male gender. While very few talk about toxic femininity. If you argue that harmful behaviours of men should all be subsumed under the umbrella term "toxic masculinity", then the same should go for women who show harmful behaviours. But when was the last time you actually read the words "toxic femininity" in a mainstream blog, magazine, or newspaper article admitting that it even exists.

It's that traditional blind spot many fisherpersons have, that women are inherently good and men are inherently bad, and even if a woman is bad, it's somehow a man's fault.
>> No. 31935 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:25 am
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/14/sarah-everard-misogyny-men-violence-death-women

>Where are the online resources for boys struggling with low self-esteem and perceived societal expectations?

The thing is, as someone who was an awkward teenlad, pretty much nobody cares. The only place you can go to find any sort of support or camaraderie is online, where you'll find people like you, but more bitter. This is what chronic masturbators are. Maybe we should make a "what can we, as a gender do to help boys and men struggling with low self-esteem and perceived societal expectations" thread on mumsnet.

She ends with
>we need you to talk to your sons. Because in failing the boys of today, we are failing the women of tomorrow.

I'm a little bit worried that Guardian readers trying to talk to their sons about male violence is going to make everything worse. At the very least it's adding fuel to the neurotic teenlad > fully brainwormed internet misogynist pipeline.
>> No. 31937 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:31 am
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>>31933
>The optics were terrible

Especially when you compare it with Glasgow last week.
>> No. 31938 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:32 am
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>>31933
Shut the fuck up.
>> No. 31939 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:50 am
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>>31929
>There's a difference between essentialism and biological determinism lad, keep up.
Indeed there is. So why do you keep bringing up the latter?
>> No. 31941 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:30 pm
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>>31888
You made a claim, now back it up. There's no need for this showboating, I'll listen. You'd be better off being cooperative here than assuming bad faith on behalf of others, it gets things moving faster.
>> No. 31942 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:42 pm
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>>31941
>I'll listen
Will you though?

>You'd be better off being cooperative here than assuming bad faith on behalf of others
I'll stop assuming bad faith when you stop demonstrating it.
>> No. 31943 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:47 pm
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>>31942

"I WAS GOING TO INTORODUCE YOU TO MY HOT OLDER BOYFRIEND WHO GOES TO ANOTHER SCHOOL BUT NOW I AM NOT GOING TO BECAUSE YOU ARE SOOOO DISGUSTING"

So you don't have proof then?
>> No. 31944 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:51 pm
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>>31933
>It all reeks of tribalism over principle.

Good luck making this argument when all the press photos consist of attractive middle-upper class white women.
>> No. 31945 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 12:54 pm
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>>31942
Yeah. Sock it to me.
>> No. 31946 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 1:26 pm
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>>31941
>>31943
Scott isn't going to sleep with you, m7.
>> No. 31948 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 2:43 pm
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>>31944
The more I see the pictures from this the more it looks like a BBC drama.
>> No. 31951 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 2:48 pm
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>>31948

It's helping import the whole "Crisis actor" thing.
>> No. 31952 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:01 pm
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I know we've veered off onto domestic violence rather than sexual harassment here, but I imagine this situation would be exactly the same in reverse if we lived in a mirror universe where women are the ones who are expected to make the first move on men, and therefore the ones effectively made to compete for a mate.

This is all completely primitive monkey behavioural dynamics honestly. We need to be more honest with ourselves, there's no internalised toxic muscularity or patrinormative heterobicamerality or any of that nonsense. It's just that if you want to actually get a bird, as a bloke, you've got to be a bit forward. It really is that simple, you just end up like all those chronic masturbators on the otherplace if you don't.

You can say we have to teach men how to read boundaries better or be more tactful or whatever you like, but it won't do anything. The only thing that will substantially change it is shifting the supply and demand equation of access to pussy.

I think men need to go on sex strike for a year, shift the balance a bit. I know it'll hurt, but it really is for the greater good.
>> No. 31954 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:28 pm
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>>31952

Much as one or two of the things you said are tenable, on the whole, your posts sounds too much like staple MRA argumentation.

Especially

>supply and demand equation of access to pussy

Please don't use any of those words together. There's a whole rabbit hole of sexual market theory attached to that kind of phrasing which you really, really don't want to go down. Not because it would be wholely unreasonable to apply the dynamics of supply and demand to the dating and courtship game, but because it's kind of the favourite topic of a certain segment of MRAs who in reality have nothing but vitriol to add to the debate.
>> No. 31955 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:32 pm
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>>31954

I've never dwelled much on those segments of the internet, it always gave me a kind of complete hopelessness and dread when I ever looked into it. I feel painfully sorry for them.

If I use terminology that sounds like theirs, it is a coincidence. My speculation comes from more or less pure introspection and reflection on life experiences, if often in the bottom of a glass.
>> No. 31956 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:35 pm
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>>31951
I feel like it's not a new phenomenon, you go to a widely popular protest and get yourself arrested with photographers in sight. So long as the protests doesn't pose a threat you can be guaranteed the best shots, an editorial in the paper and all charges either dropped or coming as a slap on the wrist.

It seems a very thin line between making a choreographed stunt for a message and your brand but I can't help but be cynical in these circumstances.
>> No. 31957 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:37 pm
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>>31956
That's not what a crisis actor is.
>> No. 31958 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:50 pm
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>>31951
It's not actually a thing. It's a boogeyman invented by right-wingers to avoid the consequences of their actions.
>> No. 31959 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:52 pm
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>>31955

>If I use terminology that sounds like theirs, it is a coincidence.

That may well be. And there are actually more level-headed non-MRAs in psychology and social sciences who have applied the mechanisms of markets to human sexuality. And in that context, even the word "sexual market value" has its actual place and does not imply, as some MRAs do, that it is something that man-hating menopausal fisherpersons attempt to control.

It's probably a bit like immigration. You can argue to some extent that I'm not racist but the UK can only accept a certain number of immigrants before there will be adverse cultural and economic effects that would be in our interest to prevent as a country. The problem isn't that statement in itself, depending on how you lean, but that you'll have UKIP and the BNP patting you on the shoulder and calling you one of theirs.

If you get what I mean.
>> No. 31960 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 3:58 pm
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>>31958
Yes. That's what I mean. They're doing it more now, this sort of photography encourages them because it looks like a TV show, so they think it's all entirely staged.
>> No. 31961 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 4:04 pm
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This whole "men as a gender" thing is so meaningless. Don't teach women to stay safe, teach men not to harass. What does it even mean?
>> No. 31963 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 4:19 pm
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>>31961

It is framing it as you are blaming the victim rather than the offender which is a fair point except I still have locks on my house and you would think me an idiot if I didn't.
>> No. 31964 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 4:25 pm
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>>31963

I always blame the offender but that doesn't mean that the victim's negligence for their own safety didn't give the offender their opportunity to strike. We don't live in marshmallow land where crime doesn't exist.
>> No. 31967 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 5:31 pm
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>>31964
When your negligence is "going outside at night" drawing attention to it can only be a cunt move. Not having locks on your doors is unreasonable carelessness, not being able to get a job that finishes before the school day is out rather less so.
>> No. 31968 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 6:23 pm
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>>31964

>I always blame the offender but that doesn't mean that the victim's negligence for their own safety didn't give the offender their opportunity to strike.


You're still implying that it's the victim's fault for not being careful enough.

We're not talking about something like taking a swim somewhere that's teeming with sharks. That's your own fault for ignoring the obvious. But if you're saying it's a woman's fault if she gets attacked while walking home at night because she should have known better, then that's not a statement that you are going to make many friends with. Because that's pretty much the same as saying a woman was asking to get raped because she was wearing revealing clothing.
>> No. 31969 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 6:26 pm
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>>31911
>How has someone being murdered ended up with me being told I should tell my mates off for looking at a girl's arse? That seems like a valid area for discussion in of itself but I'm not comfortable with the association.

This is a real problem with the public debate that is happening at the moment. Women know from experience that they are pretty likely to have to deal with some degree of low-level street harassment like cat-calling, persistent unwanted attention etc. There is a truly absurd conflation of this kind of behaviour with violent assault or murder which has now just dominated the press with very little challenge.

If the two were indeed directly linked, you would have to assume that women would get assaulted/murdered at a much higher rate than statistics tell us that they do, I expect. That hasn't stopped every shit opinion writer in the country from strongly implying that if you once had a twat yell "nice tits" at you, you were probably only seconds away from being abducted, raped and murdered. It's not a surprise that large numbers of women are now unironically speaking as if violence against women is somehow more prevalent than violence against men, which is easily proven to be complete nonsense to anybody who bothers to google it.
>> No. 31970 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 6:40 pm
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>>31946
They're not the same poster. And I don't know who Scott is. Why are you obsessed with this person?
>> No. 31971 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 6:49 pm
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>>31970
Presumably Scott is the person who writes Slate Star Codex and they're "obsessed" with him (as in, have mentioned an opinion on him) because someone linked to his website making him relevant.
Just a guess though.
>> No. 31972 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 6:51 pm
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>>31968 - I think opinions like this are quite regressive. They make it incredibly hard to have a conversation about the topic without getting sidetracked by someone tripping you up for not padding every single sentiment with a clarification. Is that your intention?

>You're still implying that it's the victim's fault for not being careful enough.

That's because you've got an absolutist definition of 'fault' though, isn't it? People like to simplify it, but if someone has a choice between two actions, and takes one which they know is more risky, then *they did that with full agency*, and they are responsible for that decision. That doesn't mean one thinks that responsibility has much weight, but it is there.

It's obviously, so so obviously, the fault of the perpetrator. It's so obvious that it often goes unsaid. But that doesn't mean you'd be fucking furious with yourself if you had a choice between taking a safe option and a risky option and that 0.0001% chance manifested in your brutal murder?

Like how do you think the boyfriend feels? Do you think he regrets not staying on the line longer? Do you think Sarah regretted that in her last moments?

>ignoring the obvious

But the obvious is entirely subjective.

> Because that's pretty much the same as saying a woman was asking to get raped because she was wearing revealing clothing.

That's disingenuous. Choice in clothing has no impact on rape rates at all. Marginal precautions, such as have been discussed everywhere recently, can have a genuine impact.

That said, you won't stop that type of nutter from getting you. Even being in permanent mistrust mode won't ensure it. Part and parcel and all that. But that doesn't mean that sometimes it might be the deciding factor.
>> No. 31973 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 6:54 pm
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>>31969

>There is a truly absurd conflation of this kind of behaviour with violent assault or murder which has now just dominated the press with very little challenge.

Indeed, but that's not where all of that started. It sort of has a few of its roots in anti-child abuse advocacy, where nowadays it's commonly-held belief that some paedo inappropriately putting their hand on a kid's knee is as life-changingly traumatising as full-on penetrative arse rape. There's an account by Richard Dawkins from a few years ago where he said he was fondled by a Catholic priest, but apparently it didn't go much further than a bit of touching with his clothes on, and he drew a lot of heat from children's charities for saying that while it left him feeling massively disgusted, it surely wasn't as grave as what some children experienced who had to suffer much more serious sexual abuse. So in essence, while certainly no adult has any business touching a child even in the most superficial kind of way, the idea that there is scope is declared invalid to begin with.

And the same is now apparently increasingly true for abusing an adult woman. I have no doubt that yelling "Oi!! Great tits!!" after a woman can leave her feeling hugely uncomfortable. And rightly so, I can't really imagine why any bloke would think that that is ok. But if you're blurring the lines and trying to remove the distinctions between shouting poor-taste sexually explicit stuff after a lass on the one hand and dismembering or gang raping her in a dark alley on the other hand, then that is just nonsense. Because with that, you're really saying that one equals the other and that somebody who does A just as easily has it in him to do B.
>> No. 31974 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 7:01 pm
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>>31971
Good spot. And people don't usually respond to a request for a source with such argumentativeness, evasion, and transparent attempts to induce frustration unless they have strong feelings on something, which I think falls under 'obsession' in casual use on the internet.
>> No. 31975 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 7:06 pm
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I'm starting to find the assumption that all men are attracted to women to be irritating. I understand it of course, most men are straight, you casually say "Men" when you really mean "Most men" not "all men" and so on. But I'm not straight, I'm gay.
In the nicest way possible: I don't care about women. Not that I treat the women I know socially in a weird way, Not that I don't think harassment against women is terrible and worse than what men get, but it's not like being a straight man where it might be helpful for me to be reminded that I shouldn't stare at a woman's tits. I don't care, I don't like tits. I could be the creepiest guy around and none of this would have anything to do with me because I'd only be interested in being creepy towards other men.
And I don't like the assumption that I should be expected to intervene if another man with sexual preferences that are completely alien to me is acting in an objectionable fashion, just because I happen to be a man and most men are attracted to women. With all reasonable concession to doing the right thing in public, this is none of my business.

I'm sure there's some underlying nugget of misogyny or self-centeredness or borderline chronic masturbator thinking or something else horrible underpinning a lot of these feelings, but still. It's on my mind and I can't exactly say it anywhere else.
>> No. 31976 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 7:34 pm
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>>31975
You can still be gay and look at a pair of boobies.
>> No. 31977 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 8:29 pm
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>>31972
>But that doesn't mean you'd be fucking furious with yourself if you had a choice between taking a safe option and a risky option and that 0.0001% chance manifested in your brutal murder?
What was the "risky option" she took, lad?
>> No. 31978 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 8:33 pm
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>>31974
I like how you're going to absurd lengths to defend an alt-right tosspot but think the other lad is the one who's "obsessed".
>> No. 31979 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 8:37 pm
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>>31978
Someone linked an article
You said the writer was a rotter
I said It seemed like a perfectly reasonable article having only read the article and never heard of them before.

Someone else asked you why you said they were a rotter.

And you got very secretive about revealing why and said asking people to back their point means they don't believe you anyway.

You are right, I also don't believe you, you are an anonymous poster 'your word' has zero credibility, I have no reason to believe you, this isn't Sunday school, I am not going to take anything on faith, I don't get afterlife brownie points for just trusting you, and the more you play coy with evidence, the reasonable it is to assume on the balance of probability there isn't any. So either provide the evidence claimed or I will just assume you to be lying for your own ends.
>> No. 31980 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 8:53 pm
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>>31972
I am not convinced that going outside and winding up raped and murdered is a calculable risk in the majority of cases. It would seem more like fundamental uncertainty.
>> No. 31981 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:00 pm
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>>31975
>>31976
I'm actually fairly sure it's women who do the most pervy glances in actuality. They did an eye tracking experiment a few years back and found that women couldn't keep their glances still no matter the gender. I think I remember that science bloke with the moustache talking about it. I'd post a link but we're not allowed to talk about fun websites.

Men are not only the scapegoats in all this but also the victims. Lock all the women up and throw away the key.
>> No. 31982 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:15 pm
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>>31979
1. Evidence has, in fact, been provided. If you choose to ignore it, that's fine. Just don't ask me to do your research for you.
2. Even if evidence had not been provided, which it has, you could have literally googled the guy's name yesterday and got all the evidence you could ever have wanted. Instead, you apparently wanted some kind of cunt-off, and here we are.
>> No. 31983 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:32 pm
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>>31982

Evidence has been provided, imagine for a second that I don't have an interest in reading through this entire thread again looking for what I might have missed but you know exists, would you like to like to link to the relevant post or repost it to make me feel stupid and prove you right?
>> No. 31984 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:36 pm
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Hmmmm.

https://www.castingnow.co.uk/patsy-stevenson

https://twitter.com/counterfireorg/status/1371053376461541376
>> No. 31985 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:37 pm
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And now the "crisis actor" brainworms have reached here. Well done everyone.
>> No. 31986 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:39 pm
31986 spacer
>>31968

>You're still implying that it's the victim's fault for not being careful enough.

That's because it is. It's also the killers fault for doing it, but it's their fault for not being careful enough.
>> No. 31987 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:42 pm
31987 spacer
>>31983
>imagine for a second that I don't have an interest in reading through this entire thread again
Funnily enough, I don't have an interest in reading through this entire thread again to find it either.

If you want the evidence, it's there for you to find of your own accord. But it looks like you don't actually want it, otherwise you'd have found it yourself already. Which is fine. If you want to be the one wading into a thread about sexual harassment of women defending an alt-right nutjob, you do you.
>> No. 31988 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:43 pm
31988 spacer
>>31984

Don't embarrass yourself, mate.
>> No. 31989 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:47 pm
31989 spacer
>>31982
>>31987
here you go >>31904

Regards: "Call him a rationalist not a neoreactionary, rationalists can be racist too" pedant.
>> No. 31990 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:52 pm
31990 spacer
>>31986
This mode of thought seems like the kind of thing that would include "Pilot decided to fly the plane", "Airline decided to operate flights" and so on in every single air crash investigator's report.
>> No. 31991 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:53 pm
31991 spacer
>>31989

Thanks lad (I think)? What exaclty am I looking at there?
>> No. 31992 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 9:54 pm
31992 spacer
>>31985

we did it rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk!
>> No. 31993 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 10:55 pm
31993 spacer
>>31982
For Meghan's sake, is this it? It turns out I missed the fucking quote! I didn't see that the image posted in >>31904, which is apparently your source. You were talking to several different people and didn't clock it, instead readily assuming that obviously this board is full of nazis to whom you must direct your ire. Good job lad. Good use of time for both of us.
>> No. 31994 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:18 pm
31994 spacer
>>31993
>It turns out I missed the fucking quote!
Like I said, you could have just fucking googled it rather than spend however many hours demanding other people do the work for you.

Have you done that yet?
>> No. 31995 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:30 pm
31995 spacer

educate.png
319953199531995
>>31994
>> No. 31996 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:31 pm
31996 spacer
You pair have made me a misandrist.
>> No. 31997 Anonymous
14th March 2021
Sunday 11:45 pm
31997 spacer
>>31994
No, I read the attached image and I agree that he's a dubious source with a relatively clear agenda.
>31996
>You pair have made me a misandrist.

There's absolutely no way that someone can *make* you a misandrist, you were clearly already violently frothing with militance, and dedicating your existence to the eradication of the male race. You are using this flimsy pretext to reveal what you've always known. It's obviously not the case that external influences can provoke a dim view by being intolerable arseholes and relentless derailing the topic. It's you, not me. It's never been me.

That said, I do think that this kind of dialogue drives more polarity than any single Murdoch publication.
>> No. 31998 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 3:14 am
31998 spacer
>>31997

>That said, I do think that this kind of dialogue drives more polarity than any single Murdoch publication.

I think it's largely the same sorts of people with the same motives behind both, they only appear superficially different on the surface.
>> No. 31999 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:09 am
31999 spacer
The only reason this news story gained traction and there is protest is that women were bored at home with lockdown.

This is the national equivalent of your girlfriend picking a fight with you because it's a rainy day.
>> No. 32000 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 7:14 am
32000 spacer
>>31999
It's gained so much media interest because when was the last time a copper kidnapped and murdered someone? It's also affected lots of women because they feel it could have easily been them; she was just an ordinary woman walking down the street.
>> No. 32001 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:05 am
32001 spacer
>>32000

It gained attention before it was known it was a copper. So that is entirely a... cop out of a reason.

No this is like when your girlfriend has a go at you because the flat is messy. The flat was always just as messy and she was always complicit in that, the difference is she is frustrated she has time on her hands and requires an outlet, so even if the house is a bit messy and the washing hasn't been done which are valid points that isnt the real reason she is pissed off at you (and God help you if you point out in an attempt for balance the shower is clogged with her hair and half empty dozen variants of conditioner) it was never really about the clutter on the coffee table.

It is no coincidence that there was mass social media activism about black lives matter about this point into lockdown previously. With equally absurd level of knives out on social media.

You can argue violence is wrong all you want but the reality is these people wouldn't give a shit if they weren't already pissed off and looking for some righteous indignation, even if no one would ever admit it
>> No. 32002 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:06 am
32002 spacer
>>32000
Not to mention the whole "government on the verge of passing a bill to criminalise protest" thing.
>> No. 32003 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:17 am
32003 spacer
>>32001

Women are complicit in their own murders?

For walking home after 9pm?
>> No. 32004 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:23 am
32004 spacer
>>32003
I think it's been well established by now that this place is a bit backwards when it comes to attitudes towards women.
>> No. 32005 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:29 am
32005 spacer
>>32003

Not at all. But they usually don't lose their collective minds because someone else got murdered once. No one is arguing murder isnt wrong babe, but I've had a hard day and I just want to relax, I can't prevent all crime from existing right now.
>> No. 32006 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:55 am
32006 spacer
>>32003

Also bonus follow up point if you can find an actual solution to this problem that isn't just appeasement of a knee jerk reaction that is unnecessarily heavy handed you get 10 points.

Otherwise I get to hand wave this as mass hysteria.
>> No. 32007 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:04 am
32007 spacer
>>32005

People ALWAYS lose their shit when attractive white women get killed. People forget quickly but it always happens.

>>32006

Just because I don't know the solution, doesn't mean there can't be one. And people aren't protesting my failure to keep women safe, thats on the Met.
>> No. 32008 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:42 am
32008 spacer
>>31977
>What was the "risky option" she took, lad?

We're speaking relativistically here, as regards safe/risky. Staying on the phone to partner an extra minute would be safer than hanging up, for example. This is all incredibly marginal stuff.

However, speaking specifically, if she had remained on the phone to her partner/her partner had remained on with her, do you think things would have turned out the exact same?

>>32003
Complicity is not the right concept here. You're talking about agency. These people have agency in their decisions, it's just that there's absolutely no way you'd reasonably expect these decisions to have outcomes of such weight.

How do you think the boyfriend feels about ending the phone conversation? He was complicit in that, it's just there's absolutely no way that you'd ever expect that action to have the result it did. Doesn't mean he didn't have agency, just that exercising his agency had mad results.

>>32007
Had a look at missing people statistics the other day. I could only find for the whole of the UK at a glance, but you when you cut it down, factor in the 80% that are found within 24 hours, very very rough maths basically, there's still over 10,000 a year missing in London.

So what happens with them? Do we just never hear about them?
>> No. 32009 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:47 am
32009 Pterodactyl Theory - Part and Parcel
Let's imagine that all big cities have a sort of large, vicious Pterodactyl flying overhead. It likes people of smaller stature, and once it grabs you, there's nothing you can do. The chances of it coming down and grabbing you, as an individual, are infinitesimally small, but if it happens then you will certainly die a horrible death.

However, the Pterodactyl doesn't like to be seen doing this. It doesn't like lights, it gets vexed by the buzzing of mobiles, and if you pull back it's little fingers while it's choking you, it might actually drop you, as I learned today. It may or may not see gender, I don't know yet. Mainly what it sees is vulnerability.

Now if this beast is flying around, and we can't reasonably stop it as we don't know where the nest is, what's the solution? It's a vicious wild animal who is much stronger than its victims, and without burning down the entire city, we will never stop it.

So I need to accept that getting eaten by Pterodactyls is a risk of my existence (in this city at least), however I also need to be aware of the things that may reduce that risk, and employ them at my own volition. And if I choose not to, that's my problem, and my 'fault'. But that doesn't mean I did anything wrong.

I'm beginning to think our language isn't developed enough to have these conversations, all this faffing with responsibility/fault/complicity/agency etc.
>> No. 32010 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:50 am
32010 spacer
>>32007
>People ALWAYS lose their shit when attractive white women get killed. People forget quickly but it always happens.
Bad toupee fallacy, they get murdered, just the media usually has something more meaningful to talk about. This is prime silly season shit because there is fuck all else to report on.

>Just because I don't know the solution, doesn't mean there can't be one.
This statement is so the mantra of the ignorant masses, as always the sentiment is good I’ll say that but, the logic is fuckwitted; no one needed an addition inspiration to stop crime.
What do you expect to happen? That someone is inspired by this to create a magic bullet to prevent crime from ever happening, that no one had thought of before? The best minds in society have been trying to prevent crime from happing since the dawn of civilization but what was really need was bunch of middle class women declaring that murder is bad and they would like it not to happen, that was not the one thing standing between us and utopia.
No there is not a solution to stop murder from ever happening.

The only novelty here from the usual history repeating is since it was a copper we might not get the standard response of more police funding and "[inset name]'s law" to erode civil liberties, but I wouldn’t rule it out.
>> No. 32011 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 10:11 am
32011 spacer
>>32010
>we might not get the standard response of more police funding and "[inset name]'s law" to erode civil liberties, but I wouldn’t rule it out.
We've got the Policing bill being checked for amendments today how are you all still unaware of this?
>> No. 32012 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 10:18 am
32012 spacer
>>32011

I consider this kind of newy to be vapid noise not worthy of attention if that wasn't apparent from the nature of my post.
>> No. 32013 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 10:22 am
32013 spacer
>>32012

That's pretty fucking stupid of you.
>> No. 32014 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:15 am
32014 spacer
>>32013

Is it? Tonight on national news we live in a chaotic universe where things beyond our control happen, but first water is wet and cows go moo.
>> No. 32015 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:18 am
32015 spacer
>>32014
>cows go moo

WHAT DOES THE FOX SAY?
>> No. 32016 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:18 am
32016 spacer
>>32014

If laws with a tangible impact on people's lives and the functioning of our country aren't worthy of your attention but a debate on hypothetical civilisations and pterodactyls as metaphor for rape are, perhaps you'd be happier on a different sort of forum? A dinosaur-themed roblox discord, perhaps?
>> No. 32017 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:22 am
32017 spacer
>>32016
> A dinosaur-themed roblox discord, perhaps?
link?
>> No. 32018 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:25 am
32018 spacer
>>32017
https://discord.com/invite/xYs8pVK
>> No. 32019 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:44 am
32019 spacer
>>32016

Did you know they make new laws everyday? Sounds crazy but it is true!
>> No. 32020 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:47 am
32020 spacer
>>32019

You are genuinely fucking retarded and I despair for you.
>> No. 32021 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:56 am
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>>32019
>>32020
The return of SearchStormfag?
>> No. 32022 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:17 pm
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>>32016
>>32017
>>32018

This feels like a fake conversation for grass roots marketing.
>> No. 32023 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:21 pm
32023 spacer
>>32022

I think you mean astroturfing, grass didn't appear until after the dinosaurs.
>> No. 32024 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:24 pm
32024 spacer
I'm on the side of the lad who thinks the new policing law is important. I sympathise that with the way the media is controlled and run in this country (not Jews) it's difficult to recognise what you should be paying attention to, but you have to see through the wood for the pterodactyls.
>> No. 32025 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:26 pm
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>>32020

No I am super serious. I know the news doesn't report on all of them but they have this building called parliament and basically all they do is talk about making them. That and imply their esteemed colleague across the aisle is a cunt.
>> No. 32026 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:28 pm
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>>32023

Wait so now there is space grass too?
>> No. 32027 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:41 pm
32027 spacer
>>32009

The problem with your razor-sharp analogy is that what is happening now is that all men are being called potential pterodactyls.

What still infinitely boils my piss is that some rad fems now call for a blanket nightly curfew for all men. You are making one-half of the population pay for the wrongdoings of not even a handful. You wouldn't do this with any other subgroup of the general population. You wouldn't tell all Mideasterners to be home by dinner because some of them are a bit bombey-daft militant wogy. On the contrary, governments fall over themselves to not seem xenophobic for scrutinising brown people too much. But one man commits a horrific act of violence and murder that is, granted, impossible not to condemn, and out come all the old battle cries again of all men being rapists.

I actually support a temporary nightly curfew for somebody who has committed a violent offence, not necessarily just against women. Make it part of their probation requirements that they have to be home by 7pm or something. Probation laws in Britain already allow for this. And then lift it again when they've shown that they're a reformed individual who can be trusted not to reoffend. But a blanket, unconditional curfew imposed on all men with complete disregard of whether a man is a danger to others, or if he's part of the 99.9 percent of the male population who aren't, is complete sexism.
>> No. 32028 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:43 pm
32028 spacer
>>32027
>What still infinitely boils my piss is that some rad fems now call for a blanket nightly curfew for all men. You are making one-half of the population pay for the wrongdoings of not even a handful. You wouldn't do this with any other subgroup of the general population.

It was said tongue in cheek because of women being told to stay at home to be safe.
>> No. 32029 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:47 pm
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>>32025
I'm not sure why you seem to think the problem here is laws being made in general.

>>32028
The first mention of it is here >>31789
>This seems to have sailed over a lot of people's heads, but she was quite clearly taking the piss out of the police telling women to stay at home to protect themselves.
and still it went over the heads of posters responding to it: >>31791
>> No. 32030 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:50 pm
32030 spacer
>>32028
Poe's law, that and Jenny Jones doesn't have much in the way of intonation. Obviously it wasn't a serious suggestion, and obviously it won't happen, and obviously it was said to highlight the absurdity of idea of curfewing women. But she could have been a bit clearer, because obviously a lot of people have taken it at face value.

I think the lesson is that it might not be the best time to make facetious points in Parliament in the days after a girl has gone missing.
>> No. 32031 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:56 pm
32031 spacer
>>32028

>It was said tongue in cheek because of women being told to stay at home to be safe.

Unfortunately, no, it wasn't. At least not by everybody.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sarah-everard-men-curfew-green-party-peer-b1816267.html

>A Green Party peer has suggested a 6pm curfew for men following the disappearance and suspected murder of Sarah Everard.

>Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb argued the move would “make women a lot safer” and reduce “discrimination of all kinds”.

>Speaking in the House of Lords during a debate on the Domestic Abuse Bill, she said: “In the week that Sarah Everard was abducted, and we suppose killed because remains have been found in a woodland in Kent, I would argue that at the next opportunity for any bill that’s appropriate I might actually put in an amendment to create a curfew for men on the streets after 6pm, which I feel would make women a lot safer and discrimination of all kinds would be lessened.”

It's only discrimination when men do it, eh? You want to treat half the population as criminals, potential or otherwise, and then get your knickers in a twist when you receive a "deluge of misogynistic emails and tweets"?

It seems literally anybody can get a peerage these days.
>> No. 32032 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 12:56 pm
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>>32027
>The problem with your razor-sharp analogy is that what is happening now is that all men are being called potential pterodactyls.

Razor sharp, like the tooth of a pterosaur? Interesting.

I am curious though, other than being very simplistic, what's the problem with the analogy? I suppose I could have used Werewolves or Vampires instead, that would allow them to take on human form.

Ultimately, many people are being accused of being Pterodactyls when we know for a fact that very, very few Pterodactyls exist.

>You are making one-half of the population pay for the wrongdoings of not even a handful.

Exactly, but you're ignoring that it was 'the patriarchy' who originally suggested it, so the radfems are kind of just responding in kind. Hence why it was spun around to curfew men rather than women, because that's the exact point Baroness Jones was clumsily making.

Nightly curfew sounds better than prison. If it helps people resocialise, then I'm all for it.
>> No. 32035 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 2:23 pm
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>>32032

>I am curious though, other than being very simplistic, what's the problem with the analogy?

There's nothing wrong with your analogy, it's actually a good one.

As I said, the only problem is that it's not where the public debate is at currently. One sudden, isolated pterosaur attack is being treated as if they're now going to swoop down and kill every single one of us.
>> No. 32037 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 2:28 pm
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>>32035
>As I said, the only problem is that it's not where the public debate is at currently.
It's really not. Right now the public debate is about the policing bill. Both the Leave and Remain campaigns signed a joint letter about it. Starmer was forced into a U-turn from abstaining to setting the whips to vote against it. It's on a number of news channels, various Tory politicians have gone on TV to defend it. You seem to be completely detached from reality.
>> No. 32041 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 3:08 pm
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>>32037
> It's on a number of news channels, various Tory politicians have gone on TV to defend it
I, for one, don't even own a television.
>> No. 32042 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 3:17 pm
32042 spacer
>>32041
Nor do I, what does that have to do with it?
>> No. 32045 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 3:39 pm
32045 spacer
>>32041
How smug did you feel when you were typing that out?
>> No. 32046 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 3:46 pm
32046 spacer
>>32008
>Staying on the phone to partner an extra minute would be safer than hanging up, for example
Ah, but what if she had a PAYG phone? An extra £1 spent to stay on the phone means an extra £1 not available to take the bus home another day, a pretty risky option. Then you get away from not being murdered into other responsibilities - does she not have a responsibility to manage her money? Was not being able to eat not a foreseeable consequence of running up the phone bill out of fear of being attacked?
Or what if the thing that draws the attention of an attacker in the first place is overhearing someone on the phone, looking over and seeing they're alone? Where do you compute the relative risk of being undetected (but unassisted if attacked) versus being detected (but a less attractive target for attack)? Is there a big hydraulic machine like that economist had?

The absolute explosion of possibilities makes any attempt to assign risk values to this sort of thing impossible.

>>32009
Assigning fault is completely redundant in this scheme. You can put the practical measures out there without any notion of fault for failing to use them.
It's pretty common in air accident reports to say "This part of the crew's behaviour could've been improved on, but the accident was caused by something completely different"

Perhaps because it's a system designed to prevent the recurrence of accidents rather than just to chuck around discourse, there's a much more reasonable standard of responsibility applied. One that recognises that people have limitations, face tradeoffs, and fly into the face of basic uncertainty without being able to re-do their actions with the benefit of hindsight.
>> No. 32047 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 3:48 pm
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>>32010

>no one needed an addition inspiration to stop crime.

She was murdered by a police officer.
>> No. 32050 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 4:10 pm
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>>32027
>The problem with your razor-sharp analogy is that what is happening now is that all men are being called potential pterodactyls.
I'm not sure why you think it's a problem. That part of the analogy is demonstrably correct. Surely the problem with the analogy is the part where he suggests that people should just accept the risk of a pterodactyl attack as part of the cost of living.

>You wouldn't do this with any other subgroup of the general population.
He says, in the middle of a national lockdown where anyone who coughs is put under house arrest.

>But one man commits a horrific act of violence and murder
But it isn't just one man, is it? I mean, if it was he'd be the most prolific offender in history.
>> No. 32051 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 4:15 pm
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All I know is that the #CurfewForAllMen hashtag has raised awareness for the issue, which is good.
What's bad is how radical fisherpersons have latched onto it and turned it into a massive crusade as is their wont.
>> No. 32054 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 4:22 pm
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>>32051
It isn't trending.
>> No. 32056 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 4:30 pm
32056 spacer
>>32054
Not anymore but something similar was.
It is mental how quickly the internet moves nowadays.
>> No. 32058 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 4:55 pm
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>>31990

A lot of plane crashes are caused because a pilot decided to fly the plane when it wasn't safe to do so, or because an airline decided to operate flights when it wasn't safe to do so.
>> No. 32059 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:03 pm
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>>32058

They're really not. It's exceedingly rare for pilots (there are two, don't forget) to fly with a known safety issue, and even rarer still for an airline to decide to "operate an unsafe flight". The entire industry is set up to prevent exactly those things. A pilot "deciding" to fly an unsafe plane is just a suicide attempt, quite literally.

Not sure what impact this has on your clever analogy.
>> No. 32061 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:17 pm
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>>32050
>Surely the problem with the analogy is the part where he suggests that people should just accept the risk of a pterodactyl attack as part of the cost of living.

Do you accept that you may just drop dead from any number of causes, many entirely unpredictable or unpreventable, as a condition of your being alive?

Aneurysm, pterodactyl, or fragment of meteor going in your ear hole. Presumably you would accept 1 and 3 and not 2, issue of existence notwithstanding?

>>32056
I find it very odd remembering a time when /*/ wasn't the default board through necessity. I wonder much has traffic dropped over the past 10 years.

>>32059
Still happens though, see Kobe. Though I suppose you'd sub 'airline' for 'Kobe' there.
>> No. 32062 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:25 pm
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>>32061
>Do you accept that you may just drop dead from any number of causes, many entirely unpredictable or unpreventable, as a condition of your being alive?
I'm not really sure what relevance this has to women being harassed, beaten, raped and murdered.
>> No. 32063 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:31 pm
32063 spacer
>>32059

It's not my clever analogy but whatever, there are hundreds and hundreds of examples of catastrophes caused by poor maintanance, upkeep raining, bad CRM, pilot fatigue and unsafe decisions taken on by a pilot.
>> No. 32064 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:33 pm
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>>32058
Very true, but you're sidestepping the point by your reliance on times when it's known not to be safe rather than the fact that there's always a risk.
Think of the Concorde crash. It would be utterly redundant to include a paragraph detailing how the pilots were partly to blame for the crash because they decided to try and fly the plane that day, knowing that there's a risk of a plane crashing when you fly it. But we wouldn't be here using it as an analogy now if they'd decided not to take that risk and instead walked off and just left the plane pilotless at the gate in an act of unprecedented and unjustified unreasonableness given the information available to them at the time.
>> No. 32065 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 5:41 pm
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>>32064

It seems to me you've got it backwards here, because walking alone in dark city streets seems to me to be obviously dangerous behaviour and carries a high risk to becoming a victim of crime. If the Concorde had been a rusting shitbucket it wouldn't have been unreasonable to refuse to fly it.
>> No. 32068 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 6:07 pm
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>>32065
Now you're moving to a standard based on perceived risk rather than blaming people for taking any risk at all.
Flip the thing around: What percentage of lone walks through dark city streets do you think end in tragedy? It's all well and good saying it's ten thousand times more dangerous than doing the same journey in the daylight, but the number will still be tiny because a lot of people walk alone in cities at night.

Put it another way - would you refuse to get into a car under any circumstances because they're actually quite dangerous, even though this refusal can be very inconvenient?
>> No. 32071 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 6:18 pm
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>>32068

No I wouldn't, but not would I insist that it's my god-given right to be able to ride in a car and never run the risk of a crash in it and to a person who would make such an argument, I'd say that the only way to never risk a crash in a car is to never get in one.
>> No. 32073 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 6:23 pm
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Going to be very interesting hearing what this copper has to say for himself.
I have no idea how a copper can even go about killing someone, it boggles the mind quite honestly.
Do you think it was something along the lines of "Why are you outside, there's a lockdown, right here's a fine, stop getting so uppity, right, that's it, you're under arrest, OK, that's it! *wack*" sort of thing? I know it's not pleasant to think about but what the fuck could the chain of events leading up to this be?
There seems to also be the assumption that she was raped, I'm not entirely convinced that she was although I'm probably wrong.
>> No. 32074 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 6:27 pm
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Don't say it won't ever happen.png
320743207432074
>I'm not really sure what relevance this has to women being harassed, beaten, raped and murdered.

Because it's easy to say "This is bad", but what kind of workable solution is there that prevents this without vastly restricting freedoms and invading privacy?

How do you prevent these one in a million people from suddenly just killing someone without curtailing the freedoms of the society, or making it a worse place to live for everyone?

In this instance, the police could/should have acted on the flashing reports, thereby preventing this entire situation. But that's not the case every time.

If we believe that it's victim blaming, or attributing fault to victims, to say they could have done anything about it, then they couldn't have done anything about it (the police could, the government could, but not them). So if there's nothing they could have done about it by the individual, it's basically another cause of random death - you can't control other people so why is being randomly murdered any different than being clocked by a meteor the size of a chihuahua's head?
>> No. 32075 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 6:46 pm
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>>32074

>How do you prevent these one in a million people from suddenly just killing someone without curtailing the freedoms of the society, or making it a worse place to live for everyone?

If we look at our legal system, we've pretty much answered that, in that it's generally presumed that the individual is innocent until proven guilty, and you are free to do whatever you want, within the law, without the government and authorities being allowed to suspect that you're a wrongun. On a level of laws, courts, sentencing and policing, you are by and large only treated differently if you have given them enough reason to believe that you are a threat to other people's wellbeing.

One of the big fallacies is still that laws deter crime. Although certainly many people will choose not to do something because it's illegal, there are still more than enough who will just not give a fuck. Especially when you get into the realm of sexually motivated crimes. Somebody who is fucked up enough that he has it in him to attack, rape, possibly murder women for sexual gratification cannot be reasoned with the same way that a lot of people choose to obey the speed limit because they don't want to pay a fine. Sexual perversion runs much deeper than that, and somebody who goes around raping women will not really stop and take a good look at himself just because you raise the prison sentence for rape to 20 or 25 years.

Laws are there to punish offences, not to prevent them. At least not 100 percent. And so the only thing you can do if you don't want to hold the rest of the population hostage is that you pick up the pieces after a corpse turns up.
>> No. 32076 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:05 pm
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>>32074
>Because it's easy to say "This is bad", but what kind of workable solution is there that prevents this without vastly restricting freedoms and invading privacy?
Easy. Men need to stop being insufferable shitweasels when people suggest that maybe if they treated women with some fucking dignity they wouldn't have to be constantly watching their backs.

It's not rocket science. Just fucking pay attention.
>> No. 32078 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:39 pm
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>>32076
Can you kindly take your hysterical reductionism back to rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk? That's not an answer, you're just angry at the question.
>> No. 32079 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:40 pm
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>>32076
>shitweasels

Why do people do this, just come out with the most lazy and inoffensive swear words possible to emphasise whatever lame point they're making about how they pretend to be friends with women because they might shag 'em if they're pissed and desperate.

It's like watching the the beauty of English swearing die. You really might as well remove the swear, it's better even because at least then you're calling someone a weasel.
>> No. 32080 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:47 pm
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>>32079

Its because they are cunts.
>> No. 32081 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:47 pm
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>>32078
It is an answer, you're just offended at being called out on it.
>> No. 32082 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 8:50 pm
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>>32076
Neither way of reading this for the more severe offenses is very helpful. One is tautological - if literally all men behaved well then women wouldn't have to watch their backs. All well and good, but there's no mechanism on earth that can make that happen. The problem with murderers and rapists is that they're not going to follow a politely worded directive from the Minister for Women and Equalities.
The other is just a bit inane - if men stopped their inappropriate catcalling and so on then women wouldn't have to think about it so much, so they could stop watching their backs. (But would keep occasionally getting murdered and raped, because again - the murderers and rapists aren't going to take the direction.)

It sort of feels like one of those things where the logic is kept fuzzy because making the connection explicit makes it harder to use the event to achieve some kind of change. If you say "Well we can't do anything about the rapist murderers, but maybe this high profile rape and murder is a good opportunity for men who aren't murdering rapists to think how they can treat women like human beings in general" you sort of slide the rape and murder under the carpet and everyone loses interest because that was the shocking bit. So you've got to fuzz it up and go "No more rape and murder - stop catcalling now!" even though the connection between the two is tenuous, hopefully leveraging the high profile problem you don't know how to solve to get more attention for the one you can solve.

(A similar sort of situation would be when a murder draws the attention of a majority to the poor living conditions in a certain area of the country or among a certain minority group. You get a sort of "Well, we should fix that!" effect even if the murder in question wasn't particularly poverty related.)
>> No. 32083 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:00 pm
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>>32082
So what you're saying is that women should just accept that they'll always have to do risk assessments and threat modelling on literally everything they do?
>> No. 32084 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:04 pm
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>>32083
I'm afraid that's a fate I would wish only on you, illiteratelad.
>> No. 32085 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:05 pm
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>>32082
>even though the connection between the two is tenuous, hopefully leveraging the high profile problem you don't know how to solve to get more attention for the one you can solve.

Fair point. I suppose that sounds a bit like how slacktivists might justify themselves as well. It's hard to call out because it obviously comes from a good place, but it's basically ineffective and often counterproductive. Nothing more permanent than a temporary solution etc.

It seems apparent there are no easy answers, at least none that have been brought to the table. Is it that bad to just accept that you can just randomly die horribly for nothing? Is it worse if that's at the hands of a violent psycho or some random act of god?

I just can't see any solution that doesn't enshrine a police state.

>>32081
Then it was a crap one, >>32082 was a good one though. You could try answering like that if you want people to listen to you. Why don't you try typing a response like that?
>> No. 32086 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:11 pm
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>>32083
Why do you keep trying to put words in peoples mouths instead of actually engaging with them? That said, we all do risk assessment and threat modelling constantly. You just might not notice it, because of how many risks you take. Risk/reward is a core aspect of decision making. So what's your point, the degree to which it might be expected, or dare I say required?
>> No. 32088 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:29 pm
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>>32086
>That said, we all do risk assessment and threat modelling constantly.
We really don't to anywhere near the same extent, and I think you already know this.
>> No. 32090 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 9:50 pm
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>>32085
>Then it was a crap one, >>32082 was a good one though.
No, it was just the one you didn't want to hear.

>You could try answering like that if you want people to listen to you.
Well why didn't you say so earlier? If I'd known that was the case I'd have started posting victim-blaming polite nonsense earlier.

>Why don't you try typing a response like that?
Mostly because I'm not a fucking rape apologist who accepts the continual abuse of women as some kind of inevitable fact of life. This state of affairs didn't just happen. We've consciously created it over centuries. We can also unmake it, but that means accepting difficult truths like the fact that it's the result of constant normalisation of the sexualisation of women. But you don't want to hear that. You want to hear long, inoffensive answers about how it's not all men and it's a complex problem and there's very little we can do as individuals. You don't want to accept that you're part of the problem.

I'm not here to make your feel good about yourself or part you on the head. I'm telling you to get over yourselves and start being honest about the problem. If you don't want to hear that, fine, but maybe this isn't the thread for you.
>> No. 32093 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 10:31 pm
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>Well why didn't you say so earlier? If I'd known that was the case I'd have started posting victim-blaming polite nonsense earlier.
It's the tone, not the content, you dweeb. I'm obviously up my own arse enough to enjoy navel gazing, so it's pretty easy to get me to change my mind if you approach me on that level. If you keep heckling then it just makes me more likely to snap at you, thereby achieving...what? I feel bad, you feel like you've proven something? What's the goal with that?

Also if this is andromache then you owe me a tenner.
>> No. 32094 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 10:37 pm
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>>32093
>It's the tone, not the content, you dweeb.
I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt. I'll try and present the issue of rampant bint-hating and male violence in a way that doesn't threaten your ego from now on.
>> No. 32098 Anonymous
15th March 2021
Monday 11:08 pm
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>>32094
It is a tragedy that so many innocent women are the victims of violence while your far more deserving male arse remains unkicked.
>> No. 32102 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:12 am
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>>32090
Frothing at the mouth is only wasting your own time. You can have a discussion if you want or you can keep typing angry words.
>> No. 32104 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 3:08 am
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>>32083

I'm sorry to have to let you know, but there are people who enjoy hurting other people. We call them "criminals" and they don't seem to go away.
>> No. 32105 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 3:12 am
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>>32071

Listen to yourself. You're mocking women for wanting to walk around at 11pm. This is why people are saying to give men a curfew, it's to wind people like you up.
>> No. 32109 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 6:23 am
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>>32079
There's been a few articles over the years on how words like cockwomble are used by unimaginative twats.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qkmpyx/how-twitter-ruined-swearing

https://www.esquire.com/uk/life/a22747750/cockwomble-there-is-a-crisis-in-british-swearing/

>>32105
This thread has been a festering turd almost from start to finish, which isn't entirely surprising given the longstanding issue on this site that some posters have with women.
>> No. 32111 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 7:36 am
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>>32090

>This state of affairs didn't just happen.

About 1% of the population are psychopaths. These people are neurologically incapable of experiencing empathy or guilt like the rest of us - they can just turn it on and off as it suits them. They do whatever they like and they are totally indifferent to how their actions affect other people. About another 2.5% have Cluster B personality disorders - incurable and pervasive psychiatric conditions that make them much more likely to behave antisocially.

What are we supposed to do with psychopaths? We can't appeal to their better nature, because they don't have one. Teaching them to empathise only makes them more dangerous, because they don't develop a robust sense of guilt but do become more competent at manipulating people. They do respond to carrot-and-stick incentives, but unless we have a panopticon society we can't totally eliminate situations where they believe that they can get away with behaving antisocially.

Seriously, what do we do with these people? It's all well and good to hand-wave about rape culture, but most serious violent and sexual offences are committed by people who don't care about right and wrong and cannot be made to care.
>> No. 32112 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 8:26 am
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>>32109
>This thread has been a festering turd almost from start to finish, which isn't entirely surprising given the longstanding issue on this site that some posters have with women.

The posts in this thread got gradually stupider as the conversation pushed into more rhetorical and emotional point-scoring territory, and some people flat out refused to make posts of any higher effort than "look it up yourself" and "bad men are like pterodactyls".

I don't think it's wrong to question study methods, discussing how to interpret results, asking whether the definitions are fit for purpose or whether they relate to other topics (there's been a series of iffy connections between sexual harassment, domestic violence, and the recent highly reported murder, despite all potentially having quite different factors at play), and even wondering why the story is being presented above other topics in media at all.

Honestly, I was very surprised to learn that the recent murder displaced a lot of coverage about the Policing Bill. I say this with every respect to the person who was killed, but it is plausible that stories like the OP are to open up discussions about gendered violence when we could just as well be talking about abuse of police power -- the story can be presented in multiple ways, and there seems to have been a concerted choice to go with the former.
>> No. 32114 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 8:39 am
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>>32111
Psychopaths generally aren't just wandering around in the way you're suggesting. Psychologists are very good at spotting the warning signs of them at a young age. Your entire argument here is predicated on the idea that it's still 1970 and there are loads of undiscovered serial killers around; there aren't.
>> No. 32116 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 8:41 am
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>>32112
Thankfully, other parts of the internet that users here look down on have actually engaged with the policing bill. Ian Dunt's thread on the bill's reading last night is a good read, entertaining and informative.
>> No. 32118 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:11 am
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>>32112
>"bad men are like pterodactyls".
*psychopaths/Wayne Couzens-type figures. It's a bit different. As for the analogy, no-one's actually tried to explain how it's shit, and apart from a couple of bits and pieces, it seems to serve the purpose it was meant to. The absurdism/stretch of it was actually meant to preclude emotional pointscoring.

While from what I know, >>32114 is correct and we're much, much better at identification and treatment, there will still be those who slip through the cracks, or whose underlying predilections are triggered by random events. So how do we actually deal with these people?

Because no-one's said anything other than "Men need to take responsibility", which is a nice, easy, indistinct answer. What do we actually do? Surveillance state? Arm everyone? Curfews? How do we actually deal with this situation in the moment? Do you expect men in general to act as a secondary constabulary, getting involved in any single potential altercation they see as a matter of course? What are the actual, practicable solutions being touted here?

We could probably cut down on the emotionality if posters like >>32090 would stop associating politeness with nazism, insisting it's men rather than psychopaths who are the problem, and just stop trying to rile people - or simply just take a breather and calm down before continuing to post on the internet. I have a feeling you're the same person as the "Google it yourself" poster, so if that's true then you're a bit transparent and getting absolutely nowhere with your style of discourse.
>> No. 32119 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:12 am
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>>32114

>Psychologists are very good at spotting the warning signs of them at a young age.

That's a debatable point, but how many children are actually screened for psychopathy at a young age? What would we do with several hundred thousand potentially dangerous criminals?

At last count, there were 5,930 beds in secure psychiatric hospitals; people only end up in these beds after being convicted of a serious criminal offence. Of those beds, only 630 are in hospitals with specialist provision for personality disorders (Rampton, Ashworth and Broadmoor). Most NHS trusts don't have a specialist personality disorder service.

There is no system for identifying psychopaths before they offend. Psychopaths who do offend can be diverted from the criminal justice system into forensic psychiatry, but a) we don't have anywhere near enough capacity and b) there's not really much we can do to usefully treat these patients. Once they've been discharged (or, more likely, released from prison at the end of their sentence), we don't have any system for keeping tabs on them beyond the normal probation and community mental health systems.

Psychopaths aren't cartoonish monsters, they're just ordinary people with absolutely no scruples. They aren't vanishingly rare - at a prevalence rate of ~1%, you likely went to high school with at least a dozen.

There are clearly loads of undiscovered murderers around, because people keep getting murdered. The Metropolitan Police failed to spot that Wayne Couzens was a potential murderer, despite the fairly substantial vetting he would have been subjected to before becoming an Authorised Firearms Officer and joining the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command. Most murderers don't become serial killers in large part because most murderers get caught.

>We believe there is no evidence that any treatments yet applied to psychopaths have been shown to be effective in reducing violence or crime. In fact, some treatments that are effective for other offenders are actually harmful for psychopaths in that they appear to promote recidivism. We believe that the reason for these findings is that psychopaths are fundamentally different from other offenders and that there is nothing “wrong” with them in the manner of a deficit or impairment that therapy can “fix.” Instead, they exhibit an evolutionarily viable life strategy that involves lying, cheating, and manipulating others.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230603244_Treatment_of_psychopathy_A_review_of_empirical_findings

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160252709000028
>> No. 32122 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:16 am
32122 Quod bono?
>>32112
>even wondering why the story is being presented above other topics in media at all.

This is a big one for me. It was huge before we even knew it was a copper, but there are thousands of other similar cases in the London, so why did this one get picked up with such fervour? She can't be the only attractive white woman to go missing, is it because she was 'doing everything right' as regards being on phone/well lit areas and such? I don't understand, who benefits from this?
>> No. 32123 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:17 am
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>>>>32119
>That's a debatable point
No it isn't. We don't have enough corpses turning up in patterns for there to be a relevant number of Yorkshire Rippers or Wests around and haven't for decades. Whatever we're doing is working, thus, I don't care, you're talking shite.
>> No. 32124 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:31 am
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I'd just like to point out that, as a psychopath, not all of us are after going out and murdering people. I know I could probably do it and do it well enough to get away with it, but with little to no personal gain it's simply not worth the risk. I'd imagine the majority of that 1% of psychopaths feel the same way.

#notallpychopaths, I suppose.
>> No. 32125 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:39 am
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>>32123

I don't understand what point you're making. Do you think that psychopaths are exclusively serial killers and that rapists and non-serial murderers are all non-psychopaths? Because that's absolutely not the case.

If whatever we're doing is working, then why are we even having this conversation?
>> No. 32126 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:45 am
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>>32124

Absolutely - the problem is that a) there are a lot of psychopaths b) most of them don't end up raping or murdering anyone and c) we don't have any good way of predicting which of them will turn into murderers and rapists.

Unless there's a massive breakthrough in forensic psychology, we're just going to have to live with the fact that a small but highly significant proportion of the population are utterly amoral. There's almost certainly another John Worboys or Reynhard Sinaga active right now and there are definitely thousands of opportunists who will take a chance if they see it.
>> No. 32127 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:46 am
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>>32125

That's because you're stupid. If not all psychopaths are serial killers and rapists then what the fuck does it matter how many there are who aren't?
>If whatever we're doing is working, then why are we even having this conversation?
Because a) you brought up psychopaths in the first place, though they're not really relevant because b) you're trying very, very hard to make this into a #notallmen debate instead of engaging with the policing bill, which is something that actually matters to more than just your flimsy ego.
>> No. 32128 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:51 am
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As has been pointed out in this thread is women by all accounts are very safe, safer than they have ever been and safer than men (even though not being safe is treated as a woman’s problem, this is because women complain and men don’t (I’ll explain)).

What the problem seems to be in this context is that women collectively asking for things that things that are unsolvable (i.e. currently in the news; no murders), the idea that there are forces beyond anyone's ability to control is an existential problem they don't face, men don't do this, this behaviour is quite explainable.

You have heard the old joke about when a man is lost he spends ages circling around getting more lost, and a woman just asks someone for directions. This is an observation of a greater behaviour pattern, men look for ways to solve a problem for themselves women look for someone to solve a problem for them.
This all sounds quite sensible on the women’s part men presume themselves to be experts in anything and everything (there is a reason most arrogant people are men), the issue is this becomes exaggerated, "if something is not exactly how someone likes it" men must either change it for themselves or accept it is unchangeable possibly through initially quite frustrating means of smashing their heads into a brick wall instead of asking for the door, but eventually men will learn this lesson.
Women see these things as within someone else’s control and if they ask correctly it can be changed, at this point if someone says something "can't" be changed to a woman that is indistinguishable between different concepts things; that are well beyond their capacity to change, and things they consider not worth their effort of changing. It turns out if it is the second one, there is actually a lot that can be achieved by just asking more. There is a reason the cliché "I'd like to speak to the manager" is a woman, equally women can never rule out the possibility that if they had just asked longer they might have solved the problem, they can’t tell the difference between the unchangeable and the stubborn

This leads to further interesting dynamics because women aren't actually the solvers of a problem they can be critics of how things "should be" without any consideration of feasibility. Men who face from a young age the limitations of their powers have to accept things beyond their control and what is "good enough", Women see it as someone else fucking with them when things aren't perfect. Women’s morals can be absolute and never need to be compromised by pragmatism, men’s morals are wholly relative to what solved the problem,
Every think pieces on modern feminism could be summarised as "women complain about something unrealistic to fix" vs "men are refusing to fix this thing" depending on if it is pro or con.
>> No. 32129 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:53 am
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Get a load of all this evopsych. Fuck me.
>> No. 32130 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 9:58 am
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>>32127

>If not all psychopaths are serial killers and rapists then what the fuck does it matter how many there are who aren't?

Because most murderers and violent rapists are psychopaths, which means that any solution along the lines of "teach boys to respect women" or "tell rapists not to rape" is to a great extent doomed from the outset. I care about the issue, I want us to actually do something that might help, which is why I want to start with the evidence and work towards practical solutions.

I've read the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, I'm not best pleased about the provisions on protest, but I haven't heard anyone propose an amendment to the bill that would actually have a meaningful impact on violence against women. A few people have been talking about stricter sentences, but there's no evidence to suggest that sentencing is relevant and it certainly has nothing to do with the low rate of prosecutions and convictions for violent and sexual offences against women; the overwhelming consensus within the criminal justice system is that the primary problem is a lack of funding for the CPS and HMCS, which a) isn't being recognised as such by Westminster or the media and b) isn't a statutory matter and so has nothing to do with the bill.
>> No. 32131 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 10:16 am
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>>32130

>Because most murderers and violent rapists are psychopaths

They certainly aren't not without some fallacy of... but they killed or raped someone so they must be a psychopath.
>> No. 32132 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 10:21 am
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>>32130
>>32131
Yeah citation needed on this one. Your Criminology degree from a polytechnic not withstanding.
>> No. 32133 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 10:29 am
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>>32128

This is more accurate than a lot of people would ever like to admit. It's not even sexist to observe as such because it still all comes down to socialisation and how women are raised to think versus how men are raised to think.

I'm going to make a broad and sweeping statement about morality and politics in general here. When we're talking about broader social patterns and systematic issues affecting whole groups of a populace, the left is most often right. But when talking about issues and behaviours that ultimately hinge on individuals, the right is more often correct.
>> No. 32134 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 10:46 am
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>>32132

>The current study meta-analyzed data from 29 unique samples from 22 studies that included 2,603 homicide offenders, and found that the mean psychopathy score on the PCL-R for a homicide offender was 21.2 (95% CI= 18.9 –23.6). This score is indicative of moderate psychopathy. The overall effect size r= .68 was large, and effect sizes intensified in studies of more severe manifestations of homicide including sexual homicide (r= .71), sadistic homicide (r= .78), serial homicide (r= .74), and multi-offender homicide (r = .80). Current study findings make clear that psychopathy and homicide are importantly linked and that psychopathic personality functioning is a significant risk factor for various forms of lethal violence.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329273113_Psychopathic_killers_A_meta-analytic_review_of_the_psychopathy-homicide_nexus
>> No. 32135 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 11:03 am
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>>32134

If I am reading that study right it is saying 68% I have to agree most murderers are evidently psychopaths. But I would consider 32% a large enough minority to disregard that as a meaningful generalisation in a lot of contexts.
>> No. 32136 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 11:09 am
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>>32135
Yeah, it's a bit weird. 2/3 of murderers are sourced from a fraction of the population, the other 1/3 are sourced from 99% of the population. I don't know how to phrase it, but that's a got to be significant.
>> No. 32137 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 11:16 am
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>>32135

The cutoff between "psychopath" and "non-psychopath" is essentially arbitrary and hotly disputed, but the analysis shows a very strong correlation between psychopathic traits and murder.

It seems a bit obvious when stated plainly, but people who kill are much more aggressive and impulsive and much less empathetic and remorseful than the general population. The problem we face as a society is that those traits appear to be substantially hard-wired and we have no effective means of changing them. We can probably reduce the likelihood of people developing psychopathic traits somewhat by reducing childhood trauma and neglect, but that's a complicated and multi-generational issue.

The idea that we can end violence against women through cultural change is wishful thinking - we can certainly do a better job of helping victims and prosecuting perpetrators, but a significant proportion of people are, if not "born evil", then at least "born with a very limited capacity for morality".
>> No. 32138 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 11:50 am
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>>32137

In curiosity based on this thread, I took a psychopathy test. https://www.psychopathtest.com/
I read in the foot notes that psychopaths are typically of low intelligence (which seemed counter intuitive). Looking at the test (assuming it is typical) it hardly seems surprising and a flaw of the measuring system more than anything circular reasoning as it were.
It seems to require an openness about being manipulative and cruel that I couldn't imagine being particularly forth coming from anyone who was manipulative and not stupid.
>> No. 32139 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 12:03 pm
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>>32138
Took it too. Somewhat eye opening being asked a few questions I'd never asked myself within that particular context. "My suffering is worth causing others pain" was a good one.

>then at least "born with a very limited capacity for morality".
Appeal to their rationality then? If there's no benefit to killing etc, then they wouldn't do it. Lacking empathy doesn't mean you're evil, as such. It just means that empathy doesn't factor into your decision making process.
>> No. 32140 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 12:24 pm
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Beta Picard.jpg
321403214032140
>>32134
>>32135
>>32136
This conversation feels a bit backwards to me. Although we'll never know exactly what proportion of the population could be diagnosed with a degree of psychopathy it doesn't mean that psychopath = murderer and I'd hazard that most psychopaths are not murderers just as most poor people aren't thieves. There's always a choice element after all.

What policy solutions can we draw from this that actually give us a society you would want to live in? We've had multiple historical instances of mental health paranoia and the community becoming a panopticon for signs of mental illness (i.e. people who are different are therefore criminals) so that might give pause for thought. As would the unintended consequences of ham-handed attempts at addressing social issues such as schools praising all pieces of work creating a paranoia of compliments or how suppressing aggression or risk-taking creates ineffective people.

If we must then the half-baked idea in my head would be directing people with a propensity to being wrong'uns into lives that productively use these traits - as most psychopaths already gravitate to particular professions and having screening for others like the police. The 'flow like water' approach to solving the issue of crime.
>> No. 32141 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 12:39 pm
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>>32140

>it doesn't mean that psychopath = murderer

Absolutely, but the prevalence of psychopathy among serious violent offenders significantly narrows our options for reducing crime. They don't have a better nature to appeal to. Some can be persuaded that it isn't worth the risk and they can get what they want through other means, but others have co-morbid mental illnesses or learning disabilities that make them less receptive to reason and less able to achieve their goals by lawful means. Others will believe (rightly or not) that they're clever enough to beat the system and will relish the thrill of evading detection and capture.

The world is full of high-functioning psychopaths, many of whom excel at what they do and contribute usefully to society; the problem is that there's no limit to what they're willing to do if they think that they'll get away with it, whether that's murdering a woman or rigging the LIBOR rates. There are almost certainly things we can do to reduce the attractiveness of serious criminal behaviour to psychopaths, but we can't eliminate it entirely.

To a great extent it's the cluster of symptoms that makes the danger - someone who is cruel and arrogant and impulsive poses a far greater threat than someone with one or two of those traits.
>> No. 32143 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 12:43 pm
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>>32138
>It seems to require an openness about being manipulative and cruel that I couldn't imagine being particularly forth coming from anyone who was manipulative and not stupid.

I feel like some of the questions test for this by asking both of your own action and how perceive or feel you experience from everyone else. Although looking at the rest of the site I might be putting more thought that I ought into something so infantile.

I got 40%
>> No. 32144 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:05 pm
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>>32137

>We can probably reduce the likelihood of people developing psychopathic traits somewhat by reducing childhood trauma and neglect, but that's a complicated and multi-generational issue

There was a Horizon documentary a few years ago on what makes a psychopath. Interestingly, they did say that even somebody who is genetically predisposed to being a psychopath can still go down a different road if they are taught compassion in childhood and grow up in a loving home.

As far as brain chemistry, apparently it has a lot to do with your amygdala functioning properly. In a neurotypical, compassionate person, the amygdala processes incoming stimuli in such a way that brain regions are triggered which encourage compassion and empathy. For example, when a neurotypical person sees somebody else falling off their bike and skin their knee, the instinctive reaction of most people isn't just to go and help that person, but you will also almost physically feel their pain from their skinned knee. A psychopath on the other hand will be very well aware intellectually that you've hurt yourself and that you're probably in some degree of pain, but that's where it ends. They will neither feel that person's pain, nor will they have the instinct to come and help them.

And that's what's at the root of many serial killers or violent (sex) offenders. They will be aware on some level intellectually that what they're doing is hurting their victim, but they don't care.

But apparently, you can make up for that genetic deficiency of somebody's amygdala by teaching them right from wrong since early childhood. If you keep teaching them that it's horribly wrong to hurt another person or even an animal that way, and if it's underpinned by a domestic environment where that child feels loved and appreciated, then there is actually somewhat of a good chance that nurture can override nature.
>> No. 32147 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:21 pm
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>>32141
Sounds like some top-tier armchair psychology to me that pleasantly distances criminal elements from your own humanity. You know full well our 'better nature' isn't some absolute force and one that is highly susceptible both to social pressures and its identification of good people (or absence in bad) based on conformity and results. It almost sounds like something a psychopath would say to trick us by defining certain behaviours and then pretending they have it so that we will never think they're the canal pusher.

That everyone commits crimes and hurts people for their own amusements and greed to varying levels should be a given, as can rule bending or whatever else. We're obviously talking about the most serious crimes here but even then you yourself recognise that it's a cluster of factors of which psychopathy (a poorly defined meme term) is one and probably not one that you ought to place your degree of emphasis compared to just having poor impulse control, being a bit cold or just plain thick.

Sometimes you just shoot an Arab on a beach innit, that you didn't cry at your mother's funeral shouldn't be jumped upon.
>> No. 32149 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:31 pm
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>>32144

I believe I might be as you describe. I do not think I feel guilt, more of a sense of "if I do this then I risk losing my place in society, which I enjoy and benefit from". I'd have no issues at all stealing from a friend, but recognise that it's not worth the risk of losing the company of those I enjoy. Perhaps that's just how everyone thinks, I don't know.

I also think I'm functionally empathetic, as in I have high emotional intelligence, but would never really feel the pain someone else is experiencing. I can certainly identify and appropriately respond to it - I've been told I'm good at it - but, like you say, this is probably all just because my mum is a nice person and instilled these prompts in me. I feel like I only give compassionate advice because, well, that's what people do, so it'd be odd if I didn't, despite me really, really not caring what other people go through.

Perhaps I'm not psychopathic, just very selfish, but also self-aware enough to know that I have to do the things society expects of me to continue enjoying the life I have. I suppose if you stripped that society away from me, if I became an outsider, I would have no reason left to playact and would just do whatever I wanted. That wouldn't necessarily be murder, but you see my point.
>> No. 32150 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:45 pm
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>>32149
This post makes me think you're more of a narcissist m7
>> No. 32151 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:49 pm
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>>32150

Fair, my instinct was to dismiss your idea which means you're almost certainly right.
>> No. 32152 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:51 pm
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>>32149
>I feel like I only give compassionate advice because, well, that's what people do, so it'd be odd if I didn't, despite me really, really not caring what other people go through.

I don't want to conflate my diagnosed sperging with undiagnosed "I'm a tortured soul and might be a psychopath", but it is worrying how much one can have in common with these people without necessarily 'sticking out'. I think that's the most relevant takeaway, especially since most human behaviour seems to be defined on various spectra.

>psychopathy (a poorly defined meme term)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

DSM 5 is the best we've got. If you're saying that with that in mind, then I'd probably still agree tbh. Just wanted to make sure.
>> No. 32153 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 1:53 pm
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>>32147

If you'd like some non-armchair psychology, be my guest:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/2CmPDwAAQBAJ

The reason I brought up psychopathy in the first place was to critique arguments about "fighting rape culture" as a means of ending violence against women. The evidence is fairly clear that a large proportion of violent crime (and the majority of the most serious violent crime) is perpetrated by people who don't have a warped sense of morality, but no sense of morality. We have reams of data to show that psychopaths don't respond to social pressure, only the threat of retribution.

Everyone commits crimes and everyone hurts people, but it's a tiny minority that commit the kinds of crimes that make women afraid to walk home at night. By and large, that minority doesn't think like the rest of us, doesn't feel like the rest of us and doesn't respond to the same incentives as the rest of us. We can pretend otherwise, but it won't make women safer.
>> No. 32154 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:06 pm
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We've managed to float pretty far away from the point in this thread. We've gone from "97% of women have been sexually harassed" to "only a fraction of a 1% subset of people are murdering women at night, so there's nothing we can do"
>> No. 32155 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:14 pm
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>>32154
It's been the worst thread in a while.
>> No. 32156 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:16 pm
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>>32154
>We've managed to float pretty far away from the point in this thread. We've gone from "97% of women have been sexually harassed" to "only a fraction of a 1% subset of people are murdering women at night, so there's nothing we can do"

That isn't necessarily the conclusion. The discussion is still ongoing. We spent maybe 100 posts trying to determine how valid that statistic was, another 50 or so in cuntoffs, and the general discussions has been taking place around that.

The more information we can agree on as a community, the better quality of conversation will take place. So things like this being hashed out, which are pertinent, is not necessarily a bad thing.

Again, when people are being told to 'reflect' or think about their behaviour and what they can do, that achieves just about nothing. We need to determine actual solutions. We don't want a police state, and we don't want to be scared.

To be honest, what exactly is wrong with trying to determine who is responsible.
>> No. 32157 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:19 pm
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>>32156
>The more information we can agree on as a community, the better quality of conversation will take place
>> No. 32158 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:19 pm
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>>32155
Why do you think that is? At the very least, people are taking an active interest and being honest about their opinions, contemptible though they may appear. Is it the topic that's led to this? Or the approach of the posters? Or even just a few individuals derailing things?
>> No. 32159 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:22 pm
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>>32156

>To be honest, what exactly is wrong with trying to determine who is responsible.

All we've done is manage to change the subject from "probably quite a lot of men are harassing women" to "psychopaths murder people, don't they?" which I suppose is predicable - nobody wants to really think about how serious and prevalent the former is, especially when we can just sit and talk about how hard it is to do anything about the latter.
>> No. 32160 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 2:29 pm
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>>32159
Definitely quite a lot. 97% is a stretch (spoke to a woman who took the survey and she thinks it's mainly fair but there were some leading questions and the phrasing mentioned 'harassment' but not 'sexual harassment' as she recalled), but certainly not too much of a stretch. Certainly an overwhelming majority. And then we have what, a significant majority of men who would answer 'yes' to questions on that survey. So it seems like a more universal social problem, that people are very often harassed.

Is it because discussion of Sarah Everard that we moved on to psychopaths? The two are obviously related, but '97% of women are sexually harassed' and 'A nutter killed someone' are quite different topics, but due to circumstance/timing they've become entwined.
>> No. 32161 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 3:37 pm
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>>32160

>Is it because discussion of Sarah Everard that we moved on to psychopaths? The two are obviously related, but '97% of women are sexually harassed' and 'A nutter killed someone' are quite different topics, but due to circumstance/timing they've become entwined.

Precisely. This thread mirrors the general discourse, with a wider discussion of low-level harassment being conflated with a specific and rare tragedy. I'm pretty sure that about 100 comments ago, someone made the point that a lot of people get quite upset when you try and disentangle those issues - Davina McCall has since been cancelled for it.

The fact that most women have been catcalled or leered at or groped is definitely a bad thing and we definitely need to call out other men when they do it, but that doesn't mean that the streets of Britain are a gauntlet of rapists and murderers. To loop back to the lengthy discussion about psychopaths, there's a categorical difference between the sort of man who makes an inappropriate joke at work and the sort of man who abducts, murders and mutilates a complete stranger. They're fundamentally different problems and they have to be addressed in a fundamentally different way.
>> No. 32162 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 3:57 pm
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>>32161
We know what must be done.
>> No. 32163 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 4:13 pm
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>>32161

Surely we understand why they're entwined, though? Women being harassed makes them feel unsafe, as does hearing a woman just like them was murdered. Yes, the builder wolf whistling at a lass isn't going to kill her, but if you basically have to expect harassment when alone on the street, then of course every time a man acts threateningly towards you you're going to wonder if this is the time you finally get your head caved in.

It shouldn't be that odd that any level of threatening behaviour is inextricably linked with the worst case scenario of threatening behaviour.
>> No. 32164 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 4:22 pm
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>>32161
The replies to this tweet say a woman is killed by a man every three days. Is that 'rare' enough?
>> No. 32166 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 4:32 pm
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>>32164
If a woman is killed every 3 days but a woman is killed every 1.5 days that means as many women kill women as men.

Those most at risk are children under the age of one, with 45 homicides per million population.
>> No. 32167 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 4:38 pm
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>>32166

Two different problems can exist at the same time.
>> No. 32168 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 4:48 pm
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>>32167
Yes, but apparently since they're entwined, or at least related, we are only allowed to discuss them as a monolith.
>>32163
Okay, then what? We can't discuss distinct issues that fall under one umbrella without ignoring other issues, so what happens next? They come from different places, and manifest in different ways, so why should we look at them like they're the same thing?

Ultimately we reduced car fatalities by looking at *each individual cause* and working to reduce each individual cause, because "Let's just make cars safer" does fuck all to help anyone. But just telling people you're adjusting the height of a steering column or another type of plastic in the bumper isn't sexy, doesn't inspire confidence, but it bloody well does the work and saves the lives.
>> No. 32169 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 5:08 pm
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>>32163

Of course, but we run into problems when that natural fear informs policy decisions.

>>32164

Men are around three times more likely to be murdered than women. There has been a steady decline in the number of female murder victims over the last few decades. Murder is overall an exceptionally rare event, accounting for around 0.1% of deaths; the murder of a woman by a stranger is rarer still.

Rape and sexual assault clearly have far more female victims (about a 5-to-1 female/male ratio), but around 90% of these crimes are committed by someone known to the victim rather than a stranger - more than half of rapes are committed by a partner or ex-partner of the victim. "Someone grabbed me off the street and dragged me down an alley" is extraordinarily rare compared to "I woke up in a stranger's bed with no memory of the night before" or "I said no but my husband wouldn't stop".

I don't want to dismiss anyone's fears or downplay the suffering of any victims, but I think there's an undue focus on a very rare risk that does a disservice to women. The majority of violence against women is domestic violence. They should be less afraid of walking home at night than coming home - that's where most women are raped or murdered. Unfortunately, domestic violence is a phenomenally complex issue and a political minefield.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf
>> No. 32170 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 6:20 pm
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>>32169
>The majority of violence against women is domestic violence...
>Unfortunately, domestic violence is a phenomenally complex issue and a political minefield.

Is 'phenomenally complex' a euphemism for the fact that they are far more likely to be the abusers with lesbian relationships being the most violent and gay relationships being the least violent despite a cultural truthism that women are the victims and men are the aggressors? and feminism have actually threaterned people for investigating and exposing that fact, yes I could see how that might be an uncomfortable subject to deal with.
>> No. 32171 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 7:23 pm
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>>32169

Thanks for a measured and decently sourced post.
>> No. 32172 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 7:59 pm
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You're all still arguing over who should get to play the victim card? Great.
>> No. 32187 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 10:32 pm
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>>32169
>The majority of violence against women is domestic violence.
Right, and I think it's fair to say that the majority of perpetrators of domestic violence are not, in fact, psychopaths. They're otherwise ordinary people who happen to exist in a society that has for centuries normalised a certain perception of women. There was that study a while ago that suggested that a non-trivial proportion of men were minded to engage in sexual violence, while not actually perceiving it as such. As in, they asked a bunch of men "would you ever rape someone?" and they said no but said yes to a variety of scenarios of dubious consent.

Ultimately, we have to stop seeing this as a problem of "harassment of and violence against women" and start seeing it as "harassment by and violence of men". We can't dismiss it as "not all men" when it's pretty clear that it is really a pretty big chunk of men.
>> No. 32194 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 11:32 pm
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>>32187

>There was that study a while ago that suggested that a non-trivial proportion of men were minded to engage in sexual violence, while not actually perceiving it as such. As in, they asked a bunch of men "would you ever rape someone?" and they said no but said yes to a variety of scenarios of dubious consent.

That's the thing though, a certain portion of the perceived increase in violence against women stems from the fact that someone's been moving the goalposts concerning what constitutes sexual violence and what doesn't. If a crude sexual joke or asking somebody that you don't reasonably have a shot at to go for a drink is now sexual harassment, then no wonder you've got these huge numbers of "victims".

It's one thing to be blind to what the average reasonable person would consider sexual harassment but the perpetrator somehow doesn't, and quite another to declare certain forms of, maybe immature, interaction to be sexual harassment.

It's that whole thing again which we discussed at length further up in this thread. There's one thing anti-sexual violence interest groups can't have, and that's victim numbers actually declining. Because before long, it will make those groups seem irrelevant and like they're no longer needed. The only way they'll keep themselves on the charity circuit is by having the average person believe that everything somehow keeps getting worse.
>> No. 32196 Anonymous
16th March 2021
Tuesday 11:46 pm
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>>32194
>If a crude sexual joke or asking somebody that you don't reasonably have a shot at to go for a drink is now sexual harassment
What do you mean "now"? When was that ever not harassment?

>quite another to declare certain forms of, maybe immature, interaction to be sexual harassment
See, that's how we get results like that survey. People like you thinking sexual harassment is just "immature interaction".
>> No. 32199 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:01 am
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>>32196

So you actually think asking somebody to go for a drink is harassment?


> People like you thinking sexual harassment is just "immature interaction".

Some of what is now made out to be sexual harassment is really just that, yes.

Some of it. Not all of it. Just to repeat, so you don't lose your shit at me.
>> No. 32200 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:05 am
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>>32196
Can you explain how asking someone to go for a drink is sexual harassment please?
>> No. 32202 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:19 am
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>>32199
>Some of what is now made out to be sexual harassment is really just that, yes.
The definition basically amounts to unwanted advances and attention. Can you suggest which of your unwanted advances or attention you think should not be considered harassment?
>> No. 32204 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:30 am
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>>32202

I think we've arrived at the "It's only harrasment if you're ugly" stage of the discussion.
>> No. 32205 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:30 am
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>>32202

For one thing, asking somebody to go for a drink, as I've just said more than once.

Also, do you really think "unwanted attention", as broad as that term can be understood, should count as harassment, or maybe even be a punishable offence?

You'll put about three out of five clubgoers on a night out with one foot in a police cell with that kind of reasoning.
>> No. 32206 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:36 am
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>>32202
What happens if the unwanted attention comes from someone who you're attracted to?
>> No. 32208 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:38 am
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>>32205
>For one thing, asking somebody to go for a drink, as I've just said more than once.
So you think women should just tolerate men coming up to them uninvited and asking them out? You don't see how that might make them at least a little bit uncomfortable?
>> No. 32209 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:42 am
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>>32202

You can't really know if asking to go for a drink is unwanted until you've asked, can you? If you ask and they say no, you know it was unwanted, and then anyone who isn't awful will say "ok" and that is the end of the interaction. Is that harrasment? Is it harassment if they say yes? It's schrodingers harrasment until you get an answer.

If your point is nobody should ask anyone out in case the other person isn't interested then fair enough, that feels exteme but at least it has internal logic.
>> No. 32210 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:43 am
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>>32208
This is literally how it has always worked. Your stance would lead to such a decline in birth rates that anti-natalists would need to adopt natalism just so they could continue being anti-natalists.
>> No. 32211 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:44 am
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>>32209

Obviously I also account for context. Asking a random woman out on the street is definitely different to asking someone you've met or asking someone if they want a drink at a club.
>> No. 32212 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:45 am
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>>32209
>You can't really know if asking to go for a drink is unwanted until you've asked, can you?
Right, and similarly the woman can't really know if you plan to drug and rape her until it actually happens, can she?

To be clear, it's not a matter of whether she wants to go on a date with you, it's a matter of whether she wanted to be asked in the first place.
>> No. 32213 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:47 am
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>>32210
Great, now that we know you're okay with harassing women we can move on now.
>> No. 32214 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:48 am
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>>32213
Funny how you didn't mention any context at all, even though I've been asking for it consistently, until you'd strung us along enough. Very interesting.
>> No. 32215 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:49 am
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>>32208

What about striking up a conversation in general, not asking them out. Is it harrasment to talk to someone who might not want to be talked to? If so I have been harrased by a lot of pensioners at bus stops.

Plus how do you meet people? Not even just partners, friends too? I have good friends I met by talking to at events, but there was no way of knowing if they wanted to talk to me until I went up to them and engaged.

What is your solution here? Don't talk to anyone?
>> No. 32216 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:50 am
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>>32212

Oh. Sorry, I thought you were being serious up until now. Well played, but let's move on.
>> No. 32217 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:57 am
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>>32216
>Oh. Sorry, I thought you were being serious up until now.
It's as if you literally haven't been listening to a single word women have been saying all along.
>> No. 32218 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:59 am
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>>32217

Women don't want to be asked out by men, ever?
>> No. 32219 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:01 am
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>>32218
I don't know. But I get the impression they definitely don't want to get their drinks spiked and get raped, ever. No, fantasising about it and engaging in it safely is not the same as it actually happening in the wild.
>> No. 32220 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:07 am
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>>32219

So asking a woman out is harrasment because spiking drinks is a thing that exists? Assuming I accept that idea, what is your solution? How do couples meet?

You also tellingly haven't answered any of the good questions people have asked you yet.
>> No. 32221 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:15 am
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>>32220
>I accept that idea, what is your solution? How do couples meet?
Presumably in circumstances where both parties want to go out. This really isn't that hard.

>You also tellingly haven't answered any of the good questions people have asked you yet.
It's telling that you think anyone's asked a "good question".
>> No. 32222 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:20 am
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>>32221

>Presumably in circumstances where both parties want to go out. This really isn't that hard.

How do you know if someone wants to go out until you ask and they respond?

>It's telling that you think anyone's asked a "good question".

Is talking to someone at a bus stop harrasment?
>> No. 32223 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 3:00 am
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>>32218
Not ugly ones, no.
>> No. 32225 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 4:03 am
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>>32222
What kind of psychopath talks to other people on public transport? Other than to thank the driver, obviously.
>> No. 32226 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 5:43 am
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>>32187

>Right, and I think it's fair to say that the majority of perpetrators of domestic violence are not, in fact, psychopaths. They're otherwise ordinary people who happen to exist in a society that has for centuries normalised a certain perception of women.

There's a very strong correlation between domestic violence (particularly severe domestic violence) and personality disorders - people with a diagnosed Cluster B personality disorder (antisocial, narcissistic, borderline or histrionic) are about ten times more likely than the general population to commit violent crime, including domestic violence.

The social attitudes theory is really hard to square with the fact that most violence is perpetrated by people with psychiatric disorders that develop in childhood and are stable throughout adult life - social attitudes may be a factor, but they're certainly not the factor. Most men aren't violent and a small subset of men commit a vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime.

http://www.ohrn.nhs.uk/OHRNResearch/MIviolence.pdf

https://bpded.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40479-015-0033-x
>> No. 32227 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 6:21 am
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>>32225

Old people.
>> No. 32228 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 6:38 am
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>>32225
It happens a fair bit in the North.
>> No. 32230 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 7:20 am
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A VOTE FOR THE TORIES IS A VOTE SUPPORTING RAPISTS.

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1371895792642879488
>> No. 32231 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 8:00 am
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>>32230

IF YOU WANT A RAPIST NEXT-DOORY

VOTE TORY
>> No. 32232 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 8:06 am
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>>32230
Well given those statistics, and the fact that they've been trending even lower for years now, I don't think that's much of a stretch. It'd be nice if Labour were even remotely pro-active about these things.
>> No. 32233 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 8:50 am
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What women want and what women say is a Venn diagram in which the two circles aren't just separate, they're on two different pages.

It's sexist to say this, but it's also 100% true. Women want a world where they never receive unwanted attention from the psychic men around them, but they don't want to make the first move either. Furthermore, the vast majority of them are as dry as the dead sea for the kind of man who actually takes all this at face value and treats them as such.

I respect women and treat them entirely as equals, but when it comes to sexual dynamics this is just a fact of life. I very much doubt it will ever substantially change, no matter how much noise fisherfolk make about it.
>> No. 32234 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 9:27 am
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>>32232
The number of people charged with rape was artificially inflated due to political pressure, which led to loads of trials collapsing or being thrown out when they went to court because the case simply wasn't there. Now that things have started returning to the position they should have been in the first place and the number of rape charges has fallen there's been an outcry.

Rape is highly emotive, but as if often boils down to "he said, she said" it can be very hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
>> No. 32240 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 10:47 am
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>>32231
Oh yeah? It wasn't Tony Blair wot caught the guy who bummed people to death at celebrity parties.
>> No. 32241 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 10:51 am
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>>32225
Even the train driver?
>> No. 32245 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:10 pm
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>>32233

I actually agree with this lad. Where women all too often go wrong is that they expect men to have supernatural mind reading powers. And then they complain when we don't, and it's then our fault for not understanding women. While at the root of it, there's often actually the fact that women don't understand men.

In other words, if you expect a dog to meow, then it's not the dog's fault for not being able to, but yours for assuming that all four-legged pets should sound like a cat.

Or in yet other words, women see the world women-centric, as well they should, and that's fine, but they don't like it when we as lads see the world from the standpoint of a man.


>>32234

>The number of people charged with rape was artificially inflated due to political pressure, which led to loads of trials collapsing or being thrown out when they went to court because the case simply wasn't there.

This is also true. You can very well charge a person with a crime because you think they are a suspect, but if we accept due process of law as the standard, then there must be the possibility that during the course of a trial, the suspect's innocence is established beyond reasonable doubt. Everything else only amounts to a show trial. There's an old saying that some crimes are so heinous that not even innocence is a defence, but we must not allow our legal system to actually operate that way.

Some college campuses in the U.S. have tried in recent years to replace reasonable doubt with preponderance of evidence in rape cases. That is, even if there is no smoking gun that you are guilty, which is normally the basis for a conviction in the UK, you can be found guilty nonetheless because the available evidence seems to point more towards your guilt than against it. And that's really an immensely dangerous proposition, again with respect to due process of law.
>> No. 32248 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:44 pm
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>>32245
Women are more interested in people and men are more interested in things. This is the main dividing line between men and women. Anything else is just conjecture.
>> No. 32254 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 12:58 pm
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>>32248
Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.
>> No. 32257 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:14 pm
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>>32248

It's still not conjecture to say that women don't understand men.

Why is it so universally accepted that men don't understand women, when the opposite still has that whiff of patriarchical mansplaining. The root cause of both is the same, and both are real.
>> No. 32258 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:22 pm
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>>32257
First of all, you have to define what you mean when you propose that "women don't understand men". For brevity, I'm assuming that you mean "all human beings who are women" which is such a massive categorisation, not to mention the offshoots and subsetting such a massive categorisation entails but let's assume that's what you mean which is also what you mean when you use the "men" category.
Now you have to define "understand". Do you see how abruptly such a proposition runs into difficulty supporting itself?
>> No. 32259 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 1:46 pm
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>>32258


>For brevity, I'm assuming that you mean "all human beings who are women" which is such a massive categorisation

Getting lost in gender wonderland a bit there, lad?

Assuming the term "lad" isn't offensive to you.
>> No. 32260 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:06 pm
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>>32259
I don't think he getting into any of that. More just that maybe it's too broad a generalization. Maybe there are a small number of women who do understand men. And there's probably some grey area.
>> No. 32261 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:06 pm
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>>32259
Not at all, just trying to point out that statements like "women don't understand men" or vice versa are actually just sweeping generalisations (which most of you already know) and simply tried to explain why.
>> No. 32263 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:18 pm
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>>32260
Again, what do you mean by "understand"? As in, understand their nature? In interaction? The language they speak? Culturally? As you say, it's a massive grey area but I think in general, men and women understand each other well enough. The continuation of the species over millennia has demonstrated that. Saying otherwise is simply pointing to the outlier situations and using it as ammunition for conjecture.
>> No. 32264 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:33 pm
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>>32261
>>32263
Come on, lad. Even Captain Birdseye understands that men and women will always have some trouble understanding each other because we come from very different perspectives, upbringing and culture. I've never been a bird so unless I consciously think about it there is going to be misunderstandings.

The best you can argue is that I don't understand any of you fucking weirdos living in "humanity" regardless of gender. Magnolia painted rooms can do one.
>> No. 32265 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:36 pm
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>>32263

Even if women and men understand each other sufficiently in key areas, you can't really argue that there aren't behavioural traits that correlate with being a man, while others correlate with being a woman.

In that sense, it is then not a sweeping generalisation to consider certain things men and women do or think as being "typically male" or "typically female".

The word "typically" to most people is already open to the interpretation that something isn't always without fail going to be as expected. If you say you "typically" get up for work at 8am, then that implies that that's when you'll most likely be getting up on any given day, but it doesn't mean there will be no exceptions at all.
>> No. 32266 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:41 pm
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>>32264
If you had to choose between perspective, upbringing or culture, which one do you think is the most important and why?
>> No. 32267 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 2:51 pm
32267 spacer
>>32264
You need to read this book.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Myth-Mars-Venus-Different-Languages/dp/0199550999
>> No. 32273 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 4:55 pm
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>>32233
It seems strange to me that we associate this so strongly with women and romance.
Perhaps I've always wrongly put it down to being British, but I've always felt obliged by politeness to act in a similar way. To just come out and say what you want usually feels improper compared to saying something ambiguous and letting other people read their own desires into it, or to saying the opposite of what you mean while hopefully slowly laying the groundwork for what you actually want to do.
>> No. 32274 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 5:01 pm
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>>32273
>saying the opposite of what you mean while hopefully slowly laying the groundwork for what you actually want to do.
Fucking hell, lad. I don't like the c word, but you're making me want to use it.
>> No. 32276 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 6:40 pm
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>>32233
True to some degree, at least in the Anglosphere.

Maybe our culture is weird, but in my experience, things are way too different in other cultures. Lowland countries, and Germany, I think you would enjoy, as everything seems straight forward. Spanish/Hispanic, Arabic and other such cultures, it's a game of cat and mouse, which I enjoy.

I haven't tried eastern European yet, so would be interesting how it works out there too.
>> No. 32282 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 9:15 pm
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>>32276

It could well be an Anglo cultural thing. But then, so too is this kind of cake and eat it fisherpersonry. Chicken and egg situation I reckon. British culture is one where every idiom of communication is soaked in understatement and innuendo. You almost just sound thick or somehow socially stunted if you speak and act too plainly and directly.

To be clear I've never had a problem with it, or any issues with women, I'm just making observations here really. It just seems to be one of those things, to me, where we're all supposed to play along, while knowing privately it's a lot of bollocks. Culture is full of that and I'm sure that's universal wherever you go.
>> No. 32285 Anonymous
17th March 2021
Wednesday 11:51 pm
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>>32282

>But then, so too is this kind of cake and eat it fisherpersonry.

I dated a Polish lass for two months at uni, and she was much more laid back in that respect. She didn't buy much into Anglosphere feminism. She did want to be treated equally and with respect, but she was not into that whole fisherperson way of thinking. Kind of hard to explain.

My theory is that because socialism made women equal to men much more profoundly than in 1960s to 1980s Britain, there was much less fertile ground in those countries for a fisherperson movement to form.

Women had a significantly higher employment rate than in the UK, and working in the same kind of jobs as men was much more common in the Communist Bloc. Ending up as stay-at-home mum was frowned upon because you weren't doing your part for socialism, at a time when women in the UK still struggled for basic worker's rights.

And that has probably had an impact on their culture to this day. Women were equal to men, and didn't have to fight for equality.
>> No. 32286 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 12:44 am
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>>32285
Don't be daft, lad. The Eastern Bloc was deeply conservative and that went double for Poland, an authoritarian dictatorship with a centrally planned economy isn't going to challenge family stereotypes. Polish feminism is instead shaped by Catholicism and a recent history of western influence.

A German once explained it to me that there is this divide between Anglo and continental fisheries on terms you would expect. In our society a woman is expected to conform to certain standards of behaviour and if not then something must be wrong with her, she can't just be a whore because she wants or even likes to be a whore but instead she is one because of exploitation and must be saved. Victorian sensibilities brought forward.
>> No. 32287 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 1:11 am
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>>32286
Poland exported a lot of qualified people in the 90s and early 2k, on all levels. Plumbers, workers, programmers, various kinds of engineers... the country itself suffered a bit. The ruling class is OK, but the brain drain was real. Based on recruiting in the UK, while being Polish certainly wasn't a plus, it was definitely a neutral point. Poland is weird in the European project, can we agree on that?
>> No. 32288 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 1:30 am
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>>32286
>an authoritarian dictatorship with a centrally planned economy isn't going to challenge family stereotypes
Whether it was successful or not is another question, but many regimes matching that description made attempts.
(yes, this is the Soviet Union and not Poland, but it's an interesting poster. "There were not and could not be such women in the old days. - I.V. Stalin")
>> No. 32296 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 11:22 am
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>>32286

>an authoritarian dictatorship with a centrally planned economy isn't going to challenge family stereotypes

You're right in that what I noticed with my Polish girlfriend lass was that she not only didn't seem to think much of British feminism, but she also had quite conservative family values. She had two older sisters back home in a village near Torun, and they were in their mid- and late 20s and both were already married and had kids. And my lass also said she wanted to get married pretty soon after uni. Maybe still enjoy her independence for a bit and start her own career, but 25 kind of seemed to be a cutoff where many Polish women back home were expected to settle down, get married, and be a glorified housewife. Which must be hard to stomach for Anglosphere fisherpersons trying to preach the gospel to their Polish sisters.

Polish catholicism didn't really do much to discourage her from sex before marriage, but a gentleman never tells.
>> No. 32309 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 6:37 pm
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>>32288
>>32296
>>32285
>>32286

Fundamentally, the aims and goals of fishmongery are different under socialism than they are under Western liberal capitalism. In the Soviet states, "traditional" family values were no obstacle to empowering and providing equal rights to women, because there was no economic necessity or incentive to compete in the workplace.

In Western economies, competition between workers is the name of the game. Taking six months off and another couple of years part time to raise a child is a serious obstacle to the ambitious Western professional's career trajectory. Therefore, to Western fishmongers, the family unit and traditional values around it are an obstacle to progress in and of themselves.

Fish-shepherding isn't entirely retarded, in principle. Liberalism, however, is.
>> No. 32311 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 8:12 pm
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>>32309

>entirely retarded, in principle. Liberalism, however, is.

I have to assume you don't understand that word and had it explained through twisted propaganda otherwise I refuse to believe anyone would say anything quite so short sighted and stupid.
>> No. 32312 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 8:53 pm
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>>32311
Stupid's in right now mate, though this lad's clearly from the other place and/or a seppo.
>> No. 32315 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 9:34 pm
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>>32311
>>32312
No, communistlad is right. Pregnancy gets riskier as women get older. Society should not punish, and indeed should provide support for women who want take time out of their jobs or education when they're in the optimal pregnancy health range.
>> No. 32316 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 9:42 pm
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>>32315

You seem to be retorting a point no one was making.
>> No. 32319 Anonymous
18th March 2021
Thursday 11:53 pm
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>>32311
>>32312

No, lads, I was using liberalism correctly in context. That is, in its classical political sense- free market commerce, deregulation, rugged individualism and all that.

The problem here is that the commonly accepted definition of "liberal" has drifted towards "non-specific lefty type", which is entirely inaccurate.
>> No. 32320 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 12:39 am
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>>32319
Okay Humpty.
>> No. 32321 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 12:40 am
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>>32309
>In the Soviet states, "traditional" family values were no obstacle to empowering and providing equal rights to women, because there was no economic necessity or incentive to compete in the workplace.

They quite clearly were. Lenin was all about women's liberation in the sense that he understood the role they could and did play in the revolution, just as they had done for the French, but this was reversed in the 1920s as society was falling apart and the mental plan to completely destroy the family unit was unworkable. Stalin went even further in reversing women's gains and that didn't change following his death. Sex education didn't exist in the Soviet world, women were not for positions of power and they were positively rewarded for being baby makers (so long as they also worked and made good communists) while single people were taxed. Anyone who didn't like it or didn't fit in went to gulag where women were abused with impunity or otherwise could enjoy a lengthy stay in a mental institution. Matters like domestic violence did sometimes see punishment but it was a social order issue where even quarrelling could get you both into trouble and people matched for party influence.

On the broader economic point; there is inherently no incentive for a centrally planned economy to not be socially conservative, it doesn't want to challenge social norms and doing so to cater to minorities would be ridiculous. There is no pink pound in a socialist system, no freedom from the state fiddling with anti and pro natalist policy and a 6 month break will impact your career no matter the system.
>> No. 32322 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 8:13 am
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Apparently it's fine for women to come out with blanket statements like this about men, but if you applied the same line of reasoning to Islam and terrorism it's beyond the pale.
>> No. 32323 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 8:20 am
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>>32322
Probably because women aren't agitating for a genocidal gender conflict after making the naff wee joke.
>> No. 32324 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 8:27 am
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>>32322

I've honestly stopped paying attention to this kind of thing. Imagine the number of people who must be creating images and little "memes" in order to deliberately drive a wedge between people or to inflame a situation.

Twitter and social media are just froth, opinion, hot takes. Don't waste your time.
>> No. 32325 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 8:33 am
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>>32323
It's possible to be wary of eskimos after the likes of the Manchester Arena bombing without wishing to wage genocide against them.
>> No. 32326 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:45 am
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>>32323
It's wild how similar the circumstances and ideologies of islamophobes and fundamentalists are.
>> No. 32327 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 10:01 am
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>>32322

One in ten is really pushing it. I probably have a dozen and a half guy friends and acquaintances that I am relatively close to, and none of them are the rapey type, or would even have an alarmingly low opinion of women.

By contrast, I know a few women who are absolute fucking psychoes and whose boyfriends or husbands I sincerely worry for. From my own perspective, you're far more likely as a guy to meet a lass who's fucked in the head and has a ton of issues than the other way round.

Would that provoke me to make similar statements about women as in that meme? No, not at all.
>> No. 32328 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 10:12 am
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>>32327
What exactly is the rapey type? How do you identify them?
>> No. 32329 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 10:19 am
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>>32328

They rove in packs of 4-11 wearing slight variations of a blue pinstripe shirt reeking of Paco Rabanne. They tend to frequent All Bar One or Vodka Revolution early in the evening before moving on to Atik. The unsuccessful can later be found chucking cans of coke at each other and scrapping outside of kebab shops.

I think. It's been so long since I've been outside I've started to forget what the world was like.
>> No. 32330 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 10:59 am
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>>32322

Statistics show black people are more likely to stab you, and significantly moreso than the evidence men are likely to assault you. But it'd still (and quite rightly) be racist to act as if all black men are potentially going to stab you.

They absolutely hate this one because there's no counter argument. It reveals them to be prejudiced hypocrites and all they can do is flap their arms and go "false equivalence!" when it's not, it's a perfectly valid equivalence.
>> No. 32331 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:11 am
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>>32329
I don't mind Paco Rabanne. I usually buy Joop! Go because you can often get 100ml online for about £15.
>> No. 32332 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:12 am
32332 spacer
>>32324
>Imagine the number of people who must be creating images and little "memes" in order to deliberately drive a wedge between people or to inflame a situation.
That's exactly what most of this stuff is. This video

goes into some rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk account that, pretty much every acrobat post you've ever seen written from a woman's perspective was faked by, for exactly this reason. I'm not sure why I-swear-I'm-not-an-MRA-just-happen-to-be-repeating-all-their-arguments-verbatim lad is so intent on taking it at face value.


https://heritageposts.acrobat.com/post/641958210391113728/the-sad-truth-about-oppa-homeless-style same information presented in text rather than video here.
>> No. 32333 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:22 am
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>>32330
I think it may be a false equivalence. I'm not smart enough to articulate why, but in my gut I feel like it is.
>> No. 32334 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:22 am
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>>32332
>Gongnom Style

Going off on a tangent, but the way Seppos pronounce things with an o instead of an a really boils my bills. Kebob. Posta. Holloween.
>> No. 32335 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:24 am
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>>32330

>They absolutely hate this one because there's no counter argument.

Black people are more likely to be impoverished or neglected by policy than white people because of systemic racism, and that deprivation causes more crime. Men are more violent than women because of privilege. They are stronger and that's about it.
>> No. 32336 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:24 am
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>>32333
You've internalised the matriarchy. Feminism is teaching you to hate yourself and assume you are in the wrong.
>> No. 32337 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:53 am
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>>32326
Well, all religions are shit. Islam is a bit more shit than most current ones. Good on you if you take comfort in your belief, but it souldn't be controversial to disagree with nonesense.
>> No. 32338 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 12:28 pm
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>>32335

That's a double standard in itself. Men are more violent because that's the role the ruling class puts them in, and so on and so forth. Why do we apply leftist systemic interpretation to the plight of blacks but not to the plight of men?

The answer is usually because it's more personally beneficial for the person making the argument to be selective about the application of ideology in that manner, I feel. It always comes down to middle class intellectual types using victimhood to better one's position.
>> No. 32339 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 12:34 pm
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>>32335

>Men are more violent than women because of privilege

Pay a visit to a family or divorce court, or a male prison. Then let's talk again about male privilege.

Also, even if we accept that men are more likely to be physcially violent than women, women aren't exonerated in terms of overall aggression.

>Women are more likely to use direct aggression in private, where other people cannot see them, and are more likely to use indirect aggression (such as passive-aggressive behavior) in public.

Anybody who has ever been in a relationship with a woman at all can probably attest to that.

>While the literature generally finds that women are more commonly the victims of domestic violence,[32][33] some research suggests that rates of physical aggression within the context of dating and marriage tend to be similar for men and women, or that women are more likely to commit domestic violence against a partner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime#Aggression_and_violence_among_peers_and_in_relationships

Women may not be as capable of physical harm as men, but the emotional harm that can come from verbal aggression is often overlooked IMO. I would actually prefer somebody moderately kneeing my balls to somebody telling me again that she slept with my best friend, and that he was better in bed. The latter resulted in me being incapable of a romantic relationship for the best part of two years as a younglad.
>> No. 32342 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 1:43 pm
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>>32339
Top notch cherries there, m7.

>The latter resulted in me being incapable of a romantic relationship for the best part of two years as a younglad.
Ah, an honest-to-goodness chronic masturbator. That would explain a few things.
>> No. 32343 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:03 pm
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>>32342

This post contributes absolutely nothing.

>>32338
>That's a double standard in itself. Men are more violent because that's the role the ruling class puts them in, and so on and so forth. Why do we apply leftist systemic interpretation to the plight of blacks but not to the plight of men?

I've often felt this is an underappreciated aspect of the male experience. Ironically, I suspect it's glossed over because another part of the expectation of men is to be entirely self-sufficient and individualistic; not affected by external influences at all.

The pressure to be willing to commit (and withstand) violence as a man is immense, piled on in early life, and almost never talked about.

I also feel like the same thing can be said of other expectations, like confidence and assertiveness. There's been a lot of poking fun in the form of "be as confident as a mediocre white man" etc. in recent social media froth, but what's rarely mentioned is that you are not just encouraged to act a particular way, you are actively punished as a man for appearing anything less than that picture of confidence.
>> No. 32344 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:09 pm
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>>32343
>This post contributes absolutely nothing.
You make the false assumption that context means nothing.
>> No. 32346 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:26 pm
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This is idiotic. Real fisherpersons completely agree with the idea that the patriarchal system is also unfair on men in some ways. It's not glossed over, it's an active part of the doctrine. You're talking a lot but you're not saying anything.
>> No. 32347 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:27 pm
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>>32346
Most women don't identify as fisherpersons.
>> No. 32348 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:30 pm
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>>32347
If they don't identify as fisherpersons then they're not going to be complaining much about sexism are they.
>> No. 32349 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:30 pm
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>>32346
This is correct. What is definitely not correct is "women get custody and men get prison therefore male privilege is BS".

In case anyone needs reminding what privilege looks like, there's a man in the US being investigated for murdering a bunch of East Asian-American women where the police defended him by saying "he just had a bad day".
>> No. 32350 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:34 pm
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Mods, have you scientifically crafted this sodding thread in a lab in order to make me post something mental? Like a useless geek version of Bruce Banner?
>> No. 32351 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:34 pm
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>>32342

>Ah, an honest-to-goodness chronic masturbator

You are reading much more into it than I actually said.

For a little over a year and a half after we broke up, it was all about me getting my rocks off with other lasses. I was in some ways the opposite of an chronic masturbator, and I was having more than my share of fun. But it was still kind of a lonely place, because in the end, although I was unaware of it at the time, I was doing it to prove to myself that lasses wanted me, after my ex had so bluntly let me know that she preferred my best friend's knob over mine. And when you're 20, 21, you just have ample opportunity if you want to go down that path, at least for a while. So I had sex with a few of them, but was determined not to start an actual romantic relationship. Not falling in love was my shield against being cheated on again. If I didn't become emotionally invested, then nobody could use that vulnerability to hurt me. If that makes any sense.

Luckily, I then eventually met an absolutely lovely lass who put a stop to all of that nonsense inside my head, and we stayed together for almost five years. She was a godsend at that time in my life, because she made me believe in love and romance again, as cheesy as that sounds.
>> No. 32352 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:37 pm
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>>32349
Where the police relayed to the media what the suspect had said in interview.
>> No. 32353 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:42 pm
32353 spacer
>>32346

And I find your distinction between "real fisherpersons" and whatever other category (fake fisherpersons?) arbitrary and largely irrelevant to mainstream discourse.

I don't have the data on hand counting the precise number of articles that appear or on what platforms, but the overwhelming majority of ones that I come across that address gender issues are focused on the needs and concerns of women. The ones that focus on men's issues tend to continually push responsibility back onto them as individuals for not correctly addressing their own problems; not talking enough, not seeking help, not caring for themselves enough, etc..

As for talking a lot and not saying anything, I'm obviously referring to personal experience and impressions rather than hard facts, here. Whether you're unable to relate to that doesn't make the point of view invalid, but I obviously accept that my life isn't perfectly representative of every man out there.
>> No. 32355 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:48 pm
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>>32353
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=341
>> No. 32356 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:48 pm
32356 spacer
>>32351
That's nice and all, but doesn't really do anything to explain how you end up so in denial about systems of privilege.

Two things can be true at the same time. Men are also hurt by structural sexism and toxic masculinity, while at the same time male privilege undoubtedly exists. Remember, privilege doesn't mean you get it easy, it just means that there are things you don't have to deal with.

Ultimately, it's the structural sexism that results in privilege, and is why we end up with 80% of all women and 97% of young women reporting harassment. And the assumption that when it comes to kids fathers have a role while mothers have a duty, which is why maternal custody/paternal visitation is such a common outcome in divorce proceedings. I'm sure plenty of us will be aware of the fetishization of young women. Reminding us of that is literally the one thing /lab/paedo was good for.
>> No. 32358 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:52 pm
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>>32352
That's what lawyers are for.
>> No. 32359 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:53 pm
32359 spacer
>>32350
This thread will be emailed to Angela Eagle. It's all part of the master plan.

>>32352
This. It's being skewed and blown up for a hot take, but that's modern journalism for you.
>> No. 32360 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 2:59 pm
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>>32356

> Men are also hurt by structural sexism and toxic masculinity

You've bought into fisheries hook, line, and sinker if that is your honest opinion, lad.

Toxic masculinity is a figment of the fishperson imagination, and they have been trying to override opposition to the idea by now ignominiously claiming that it somehow hurts men as well.
>> No. 32361 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 3:02 pm
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>>32360
Shush, lad, grownups are talking.
>> No. 32362 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 3:04 pm
32362 spacer
>>32359
Actual words spoken:
>They got that impression that yes he understood the gravity of it. He was pretty much fed up and kind of at the kind of end of his rope, and yesterday was a really bad day for him and this is what he did.

The chief isn't relaying the suspect's words. He's summarising and editorialising. Those are his words, not the suspect's.
>> No. 32363 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 3:06 pm
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>>32361

I wonder.
>> No. 32364 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 3:07 pm
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>>32355

That's a cute comic, and I appreciate where it's coming from. On that note, I'm not totally naïve to the way media works. By virtue of the way things are structured in media (or just about any position of cultural influence), we tend to hear pro-corporate middle class voices more than others, and they're often clamouring for public attention. It's inevitable that the majority of "content" out there is out-of-touch, shallow, and sensationalist in nature.

I've come to believe that The Guardian, for example, plays a knowing role in alienating people and polarising opinion. It's designed to be only token radicalism, which can be seen most clearly in its foreign policy coverage, but that's another topic again.
>> No. 32366 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 3:11 pm
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>>32360
>Toxic masculinity is a figment of the fishperson imagination, and they have been trying to override opposition to the idea by now ignominiously claiming that it somehow hurts men as well.
Wonderful. This logic goes full circle. Men are oppressed because women aren't oppressed and nor are men.
>> No. 32373 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 6:45 pm
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>>32356
>male privilege undoubtedly exists

YES. *thrusts hips* you ain't workin' on those offshore oilrigs for six months or being on a submarine in the arctic or shifting fatbergs or emptying your bins, kiss my fuckin teatowel holder.
>> No. 32374 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 6:53 pm
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>>32373

I can't find any data on sanitation workers (not that I looked very hard) but some of my bin people are women.
>> No. 32375 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 6:57 pm
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>>32374

Well I suppose I'd better roll over and get my belly tickled then.
>> No. 32376 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 6:58 pm
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>>32375

Which of the things you mentioned do you do?
>> No. 32377 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:01 pm
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>>32376

Which of the roles Women complain about being eclipsed from do you crave?
>> No. 32378 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:03 pm
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>>32377

Given the choice between any of those things and being sex trafficked against my will, being sex trafficked is against my will.
>> No. 32379 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:05 pm
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>>32376
He holds teatowels.
>> No. 32380 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:13 pm
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>>32346
>Real fisherpersons completely agree with the idea that the patriarchal system is also unfair on men in some ways
The problem is that like when economists (or The Economist, anyway) concede that market failures exist, they aren't really emotionally driven by them. It's just an abstract idea, almost hypothetical, as relevant to day-to-day politicking as the price of bread in Eritrea. The real driving idea is always about the impact of patriarchy on women, or about getting the state out of the way so the market can fix everything, or whatever. Most ideologies are like this. They have the things that actually drive them, and then they have the less interesting implications of their own analysis or of undeniable empirical reality which they mention but largely ignore.
>> No. 32381 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:16 pm
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>>32378

Seriously, if you're being abused in the way you suggest then you need to make use of the contacts on this page:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/immigration/report-human-trafficking
>> No. 32382 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:17 pm
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>>32373

Is your point that men are forced to take these jobs but women aren't? I don't get it.
>> No. 32383 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:20 pm
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>>32382

Yeas, but in a Guardian Editorial sort of way where we are all supposed to feel ashamed of ourselves while carrying on.
>> No. 32384 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:20 pm
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>>32382
Women can't do these jobs because they're too feeble.
>> No. 32386 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:42 pm
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>>32384

I don't know what's involved in shifting a fatberg, but none of those other jobs really require any significant strength.
>> No. 32387 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:46 pm
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>>32386
They're also feeble minded.
>> No. 32388 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:49 pm
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>An off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.

>PC Oliver Banfield, a probationary officer with West Midlands Police, grabbed Emma Homer on a dark street last July. He used techniques taught during police training to try to tackle the mum-of-two to the ground and put her in a headlock.

>Miss Homer, 36, managed to flee from the scene as Banfield, who had been on a night out, branded her a “fucking slag”. A court heard the 25-year-old remains in his post with West Midlands Police despite admitting a charge of assault by beating.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drunken-duty-police-officer-25-23759044

>A police officer is to appear in court next week on charges of rape and sexual ASSAULT. The police sergeant is currently suspended, West Yorkshire police said. The force named him as Ben Lister and said he was based in its Bradford district. He has been charged with one count of rape and one count of sexual assault, according to the force.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/15/police-officer-to-appear-in-court-on-charges-of-rape-and-sexual-assault

It's just one or two bad apples, remember that lads.
>> No. 32389 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 7:52 pm
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>>32388

Yes and the apples are quite clearly in EVERY MAN'S UNDERPANTS.
>> No. 32390 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 8:01 pm
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>>32386

These roles do however prompt study of the insofar intangible motivation and resilience that results in these grisly vacancies being filled.
>> No. 32392 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 8:18 pm
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>>32388

There are just over 120,000 police officers in the UK, meaning that about 1 in 400 adults are coppers. It'd be statistically remarkable if bobbies weren't getting nicked for rape on a fairly regular basis.
>> No. 32393 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:01 pm
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As an aside, is this whole "people prefer about protecting statues more than protecting women" the new footballers vs. soldiers nonsense?
>> No. 32394 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:11 pm
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>>32390

No idea what's so grisly about working on an oil rig. It's 6 months of the year for about 60 grand.
>> No. 32395 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:14 pm
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>>32394
>no idea

Have you comsidered finding out why?
>> No. 32397 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:16 pm
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>>32395

I know people who do it and from what I can tell the worst part of it is the helicopter ride.
>> No. 32398 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:19 pm
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>>32394
>you will effectively be in jail for half of the year. Also when the price of oil drops you will be out of work with no financial support. You will be taxed heavily for working long hours in challenging conditions, but made to feel like proper dolescum anytime you're out of a job because a Sheikh is having a cunt off with an Oligarch.
>> No. 32399 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:22 pm
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>>32397

They didn't mention the occupational hazards, such as going nuts from being stationed in a remote place for months on end, having to risk extraordinary injuries from deep-sea diving, or the risk of having your workplace and temporary exploding? Rare things, but likely things. The pay considers this, as do the applicants.
>> No. 32400 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:23 pm
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>>32398
One of the most noteworthy bad things about it is that you have to sometimes be around people a lot richer than you? Really?
>> No. 32401 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:24 pm
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>>32399
Correcton:
>temporary home exploding

Since Helicopter Rides aren't exactly an Alton Towers-esque commodity.
>> No. 32402 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:24 pm
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Also, scraping barnacles off things, resulting in being covered in a shower of shredded barnacle innards, appears to be a major part of support vessel life.
Also also, dry platforms and shared facilities and rooms. No drink,limited wanking, for 6 months? Unfun.
>> No. 32403 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:26 pm
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>>32398

So remind me again why you want women to do more of this job?
>> No. 32404 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:26 pm
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>>32400
The sheikhs and oligarchs are in their respective palaces, you dense motherfucker. It's the fallout from their spats that crashes the oil price and puts you on the dole with no warning.
>> No. 32405 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:27 pm
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>>32400

Please read things more carefully. And don't take those things as challenges to your psyche.
>> No. 32406 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:33 pm
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Being a mental health nurse is dangerous and unpleasant too, yet the majority of MHN's are female. I'm sure there's more.
>> No. 32407 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:37 pm
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>>32399
>going nuts from being stationed in a remote place for months on end
Have you just awoken from a years-long coma?
>> No. 32408 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:38 pm
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>>32406

Get back to us when you're ripped into mist while working on a pipeline on the seabed. We'll wait, just like a bereaved Wife.
>> No. 32409 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:43 pm
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>>32408
Stop chatting shit.
>> No. 32410 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:43 pm
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>>32407

Six months on an oil rig and still alive, 60K richer, kiss my teatowel holder.
>> No. 32411 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:44 pm
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>>32409

Please do provide the fatalities for Mental Health Nurses.
>> No. 32412 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:46 pm
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>>32404
So there's low job security. Cry me a deliveroo.
>> No. 32413 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:48 pm
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>>32403
I was responding to the assertion that oil rig work was super cushy. It's hard graft and if you're wise you can make a good life for yourself from it but availability of work is very capricious.

Caring professions are really undervalued and it's impossible to draw comparisons between them.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2020/02/24/care-work-is-undervalued-and-underfunded-but-this-has-nothing-to-do-with-immigration/

If I were pressed to give an opinion I would say that these negative aspects of masculinity were traits that are selected for due to human sexual dimorphism misapplied. You can't remove the negative manifestations of them without radically reorganizing society, and you can't radically reorganize society in this respect because it is so fundamental to mammalian biology.

Battle of the sexes is also Culture War. Billionaires want women to be mad at men. Men to be mad at women. Blacks to be mad at whites. Whites to be mad at blacks. And so on. And so on. So that nobody unites to address the real culprits behind the whole thing which is obviously probably transcendental reptilian aliens whomst live inside the hollow earth.
>> No. 32414 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 9:52 pm
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>>32412

Deliveroo is also not a cushy job, but actually this independent contractor schtick that exists in the gig economy was first applied to Oil and Gas workers, it was just that nobody complained then because they made a decent living until Thatcher shut down all the mines for fear of the Balrog climbing out of Tartarus to reclaim what was owed it.
>> No. 32415 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 10:06 pm
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>>32409

In 1985, no-one died. In 1986, no-one died. In 1987, no-one died. In 1988, 167 people died. In 1989, no-one died. In 1990, there was the incident with the pigeon. In 1991, no-one died. I mean, I could go on...
>> No. 32416 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 10:22 pm
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By the way, I completely pulled the "6 months for 60k" out of my arse. That nobody has corrected me and people are using it as a fact seem to outline the quality of the discussion.

This thread is fucking cursed.
>> No. 32419 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:17 pm
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>>32416
Sounds a bit Gell-Mann Amnesia, unless you check everyone else's posts.
>> No. 32420 Anonymous
19th March 2021
Friday 11:18 pm
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>>32416

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/britain-s-north-sea-rig-workers-are-money-oil-pay-gushes-7079722.html

60k in good times isn't unreasonable.
>> No. 32421 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 2:53 am
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>>32394
Oil rig work is so dangerous even doing mundane tasks on the rescue vehicles will kill you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNVj_JpZia8
>> No. 32422 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 3:18 am
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>>32356

This is your brain on intersectionality. Total lack of class analysis which would more rationally explain basically everything you are talking about. Instead you have to look at it sideways and you get it all muddled up, it's like one of those prismatic holograms. Correct, but totally missing the point. Mental.
>> No. 32439 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 6:31 pm
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>>32422
Yes, it's class that explains why men are apparently unable to not harass women.
>> No. 32440 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 6:37 pm
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>>32439

If you keep moving the goalposts, it becomes impossible, yes. At some point in the future, you'll probably get nicked for sexual harassment because you had the audacity to smile at a random woman on the bus.

You kind of miss the old days, when the worst that could happen to you was that you went to hell for looking at a woman's ankles.
>> No. 32441 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 6:46 pm
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>>32440
And to think you've somehow come to this bizarre way of thinking all because you were shit in bed.
>> No. 32442 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 7:10 pm
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>>32439
I'll have to hijack the cunt-off you two are having here to note that class is an interesting one to think about when it comes to sexual harassment. Working class blokey professions is an obvious example where what I will call a 'sexual prism' might occur, you get an educated accountant-lass come into the mechanics and she gets unwanted attention innuendo'ed by what in the mechanics world is harmless fun but is grounds for instant dismissal in the accountants world.

The local bakery might have a lass come over and ask to boys to get stuck into her warm baps. It's all fun and games until an outsider comes in and someone is an idiot creating misunderstanding because world's are colliding. Something that is always going to happen because sexual politics is a fucking minefield. Suddenly there's an acidic opinion piece about how all men are rapists that gets men upset and then what actually happened gets lost as other people take over to shout about dubious statistics, biased conclusions and oil rig safety.
>> No. 32443 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 8:19 pm
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>>32442

You're not wrong in that things tend to be a bit more "rough and ready" in working-class milieus.

I grew up upper middle class, my family at least on my dad's side have always all been university educated. I worked as a forklift driver in a factory one summer during uni, and at least to me, it couldn't get more working class than that. It was just a whole different world, and the crudeness of jokes that people in the break room didn't think were unacceptable was a bit disconcerting for a toff like me.

I also don't think any of my middle- to upper middle class friends and acquaintances would wolf whistle after a woman in the street. It kind of seems like it's also a lower- or working class thing to do, I think you kind of involuntarily associate builders with it that are whistling after a neatly-dressed middle-class lass on her way to the office.

So yeah, class is very probably a factor in the way you interpret certain behaviours.
>> No. 32444 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 8:21 pm
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>>32443
>So yeah, class is very probably a factor in the way you interpret certain behaviours.
Probably why >>32329 is describing who he's describing.
>> No. 32445 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 8:27 pm
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>>32444

The world is full of idiots.
>> No. 32446 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 8:28 pm
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>>32443

And thus we have reached enlightenment at last.

Grauniad liberal fishmongery is just classism dressed up. Exact same roots as the stereotype that anyone who wears a high vis jacket is a BNP voting racist. They're all thick and too easily led by the propaganda in the Sun.

It's always comes back to class.
>> No. 32447 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 8:48 pm
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>>32446

There's no need to get that acerbic.

What is your actual point? Even for an honest attempt at a cleverly sarcastic post, it was kind of all over the place.
>> No. 32448 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 8:48 pm
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>>32446
In fairness it's important to not go overboard with this. Just because wolf whistling is (supposedly) something done by disproportionately working class men and opposed by disproportionately middle class women doesn't make it acceptable.
I would take the view that it's unacceptable, but that middle class Guardian types are doing nothing to get rid of it and will at best provoke a backlash that makes it harder to get rid of. But then I would do that wouldn't I, being "lower middle class" with no prospect for advancement.
>> No. 32449 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 9:16 pm
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>>32448

>Just because wolf whistling is (supposedly) something done by disproportionately working class men and opposed by disproportionately middle class women doesn't make it acceptable.

Nobody said it would or should be.

Just that the unwashed lower classes tend to have different ideas about what's acceptable and what isn't than the average privileged middle-class person and beyond.
>> No. 32450 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 9:17 pm
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Good lord has it really been this simple all this time?

Just the middle class consolidating authority over the working class by labeling their behavior as problematic. Is it really so simple as just a way to purposely force the working class to stand to attention and watch their Ps and Qs when they are talking to "their betters"? Why did I never see that before.
>> No. 32451 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 9:22 pm
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>>32450

>Just the middle class consolidating authority over the working class by labeling their behavior as problematic.
>Why did I never see that before.

Did you really sleep all the way through the Broken Britain debate?
>> No. 32452 Anonymous
20th March 2021
Saturday 10:16 pm
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Wait, are we fawning over the working class again? How awfully middle class of you.
>> No. 32503 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 7:07 pm
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>>32452

I guess being upper class is much easier in that respect, because you don't even have to pretend to give a toss about the working class. Everybody knows you don't.

Being middle class, you're always reminded that that's going to be you if you fuck things up.
>> No. 32506 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 9:03 pm
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>>32447

There was no attempt at cleverness or sarcasm about that post m8. Just honesty.

When you grow up as a working class lad and have to work your hands to the bone to reach the standard of living a middle class bird takes for granted, only to be told you had it easy because of your knob and you'd better mind your manners, it leaves one somewhat bitter.
>> No. 32507 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 9:09 pm
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>>32506
Maybe if you weren't such a feckless cunt it might have taken you less work.
>> No. 32508 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 9:36 pm
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>>31683

You read the guardain, enough said.
>> No. 32509 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 9:41 pm
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>>32506

To be true middle class, coming from a working-class background, it takes more than a decent income and a four-bedroom home. That's part of the reason why class barriers are so difficult to break through. Middle class is also about having the polite manners and the education that go with it.

Without all that, middle-class people will never fully accept you as one of them. And that will also include the way you behave around women.
>> No. 32510 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 9:51 pm
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>>32509

Who said anything about wanting to be middle class, or accepted by them? I can't think of anything worse. The point is just the disingenuity of it all.

People who have made that transition are always the most vociferous in enforcing those class expectations too, I've noticed. Maybe it's overcompensating or fear of being found out as a fraud, but they're always the worst for snobbery. Maybe it's more that they want to cut the ladder underneath them so there's less threat of competition for their new found middle class status.

Fuck those people. There's nowt wrong with who you are, wherever you come from. Classism is only one step behind racism.
>> No. 32511 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 10:06 pm
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>>32509
>Middle class is also about having the polite manners and the education that go with it.

I wouldn't really call it manners, they just use passive aggression and if you don't fit in they will exclude you for it. Middle class society is cult-like and is often equated with fascism for good reason.

This is why I just mostly hang out with the nerds and ale fans. There's no class when you're slightly pissed and discussing a tv series from the 1980s or how great a film The Fellowship of the Ring is. There's something in that even if by itself there's a high cost of entry if you don't like TNG.
>> No. 32512 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 10:11 pm
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>>32510

There's a reason everyone remembers this completely mediocre sitcom despite the fact nobody in history has ever endured a full episode. It's a scathingly accurate characterisation of British class dynamics.
>> No. 32513 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 11:07 pm
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>>32510

>People who have made that transition are always the most vociferous in enforcing those class expectations too, I've noticed. Maybe it's overcompensating or fear of being found out as a fraud, but they're always the worst for snobbery.

They can't belie their true origins though. I know what you mean, they're the ones who will brag about their shiny new Mercedes or the fact that their kids are going to university. There's still a sense in them of having newly acquired all those middle class insignia. Somebody who has been a member of the educated middle class for generations will not find it overly noteworthy that they have a new Mercedes or that their daughter is studying to become a barrister.

In that sense, upwardly mobile people with a working class background may have ticked off a checklist of superficial middle class signifiers, but they're still new arrivals, and that veneer is really quite thin. And the same kind of bigotry with which they then try to enforce middle class distinction is also what puts off true members of the middle class.


>>32511

>I wouldn't really call it manners, they just use passive aggression and if you don't fit in they will exclude you for it.

On the other hand, that is true for every class. The upper classes will look down on you even more as a middle class lad if you are trying to rub shoulders with them. Upper class folk tend to be an even more exclusionary group, which will be even more wary of outsiders than some passive aggressive middle class folk who don't like a former council estate dweller.
>> No. 32514 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 11:29 pm
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>>32513

Genuinely upper-class people tend to mix well with anyone, because they've got nothing to prove. Middle-class people are neurotic about their status, but the upper classes acquired their status at birth and can never lose it. You can be a disgraced former lawyer or doctor or banker, but you can never be a disgraced former aristocrat.

I suspect it's part of the reason why Etonians and Harrovians dominate politics - they've got connections, they've got privilege, but the vital advantage they have over the merely wealthy is their utter shamelessness. No matter how high the stakes, it's all just a lark to them, because they can never truly lose.
>> No. 32515 Anonymous
22nd March 2021
Monday 11:57 pm
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>>32513
>>32514
I don't think I've ever had a problem with the upper class. The high nobility I wouldn't know but both old and second-generation new money have always been fine from experience even if you can't help but get angry sometimes when they drop their guard on their wealth. Maybe it's just that I've worked with a few so it might just be that the one's I meet are the sort who have the moral drive to work even if they don't need to.

I've even, to my shame perhaps, met with Jacob Rees Mogg once and he just seemed a bit of a queer fellow on a personal level.

Maybe we shouldn't judge people based on their background or economic status but as individuals?
>> No. 32516 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:01 am
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>>32514
Musa Okwonga (an Old Etonian) has written and spoken about this a fair amount. If you have the time, there's a long stretch of an interview with him starting at 26:40 https://www.partlypoliticalbroadcast.tiernandouieb.co.uk/2021/01/19/140-jabs-per-minute-vaccine-rollout-its-all-your-fault-not-feeding-kids-and-musa-okwonga-on-his-book-one-of-them/
>> No. 32518 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:11 am
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>You know, the upper class are all really nice people if you can look past how they're endlessly exploiting and poisoning us. They don't feel insecure about how much better than us they are, and I can respect that. It's the middle classes who are the real problem, with how unintentionally patronising they can be when they try to help.
>> No. 32519 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:15 am
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What social class is Jeff Bezos? What class is Bill Gates? What class is Elon Musk? None of them are landed gentry, they're just average university graduates who cashed in on a good idea they had.
>> No. 32520 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:22 am
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>>32518
>they're endlessly exploiting and poisoning us

So like what we do to people overseas?
>> No. 32521 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:23 am
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>>32519
For one, Bill Gates famously didn't graduate but to call him an average undergraduate from an average family is absurd.
>> No. 32522 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:39 am
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>>32520
Worse.
>> No. 32523 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:40 am
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>>32519
All of them came from exceptionally rich parents (in relative terms), so
>they're just average university graduates who cashed in on a good idea they had.

is objectively wrong, particularly in the case of Gates and Bezos and very particularly in the case of Musk. All it takes is for a child to grow up with determined parents to instill the "you are rich beyond the need to care" virtue and, if lucky, that will build a financial dynasty. It's easy to go from there to thinking you're a cut above the rest if you have "mere plebs" who won and squandered Lottery money to compare yourself against, for example.
>> No. 32526 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 1:28 am
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>>32520
Who cares about them
>> No. 32527 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 1:41 am
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>>32519

Nouveau riche. AFAIK all of their parents were upper-middle-class at best.
>> No. 32528 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 1:51 am
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Something to boil your piss:

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/aristocrat-uk-britain-families-double-wealth-empire-exclusive-study-316017

>Britain’s 600 aristocratic families have doubled their wealth in the last decade and are as ‘wealthy as at the height of Empire’

>Exclusive: Groundbreaking study finds hereditary titles are now worth average of at least £16m
>> No. 32529 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 2:04 am
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>>32528

Funnily enough, people who own massive amounts of land tend to do fairly well out of a housing bubble. Buy-to-let bastards and the Grosvenor family are two sides of the same coin.
>> No. 32530 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 2:07 am
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>>32518

I mean, unironically, yeah. The middle class do piss me off more than the upper class.

With the upper class you know what you're getting. They're spoilt, they can do as they please, and they don't give a single fuck. Their motives are transparent, and that allows honest transactions to take place, even if they do always favour the side with the most power.

Th middle class on the other hand are cut-throat. The only thing that matters to them is climbing. When the economic outlook is bleak, they'll be in the trenches singing the International with you, because what on earth is this country coming to if young Tarquin has to get a job at Tesco, even with his degree! But as soon as it benefits them, they'll not only plant a knife in your back, they'll tell you it was you who stabbed yourself in the back and it was your own fault for being such a racist.
>> No. 32531 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 2:24 am
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>>32530
Orwell observed the same attitudes among working-class people towards the upper & middle classes in The Road to Wigan Pier.
>> No. 32534 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 8:19 am
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How are we even defining class in this discussion? Upper class feels obvious, working class does do an extent, but is middle class just about how much money you take in?

I grew up working class but make very good money now - I don't think my class alignment has changed, indeed just the other day I was watching some people move in to the house across the way from me, and I thought "they must have some money to be moving in there" and it took me a while to realise that my house is worth just as much as that one, if not more, and I've fully paid for it. I still think like that most of the time. Am I just an anomaly?

Similarly is, say, a plumber who has built his own business working class, even after he becomes the moneyed CEO of Bob's International Sink Repair?
>> No. 32539 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 9:33 am
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>>32534
> Upper class feels obvious, working class does do an extent, but is middle class just about how much money you take in

Welcome to the great debate of modern Britain. the short answer of is if you identify as it you are it, has lead to the commonly held belief that we are ALL middle class. That isn't to say we think everyone else to be middle class, but we all believe ourselves to be middle class. I mean fucking hell I've been on benefits for the past 5 years, and even I have a delusion I am middle class.

Traditional answer to what is middle class is someone who obtains their income primarily not through their own labour (so landlords, business owners, investors) effectively the upper-class without the title (the
Capitalist as Marx would put it). And professionals (the professions being Doctor, lawyer, not artisans).

The Cultural Answer which is to do with what one values, this has the most obvious and clear expression with the man on the street, the middle class is more obsessed with protocol and etiquette, one does not behave in particular ways, and one does not like certain things, and one likes certain things more because they aren't vulgar. That isn't to say it is entirely restrictive, in some ways they can be more free than the working class in their pursuits, take 'only fools and horses' the Del boys of the world are always working class regardless of wealth, because their obsession with money, regularly Del Boy will piss all over Rodney’s dreams and happiness just to make a few extra quid, this is because he doesn't see the value in things that can't be reduced to profit. If your parents are middle class and you tell them you want to be an antiquarian that would be a respected life choice, a working class parent might devalue that in entirety for not being a proper job and not being profitable enough which leads into...

Quality of life answer, what concerns you and what doesn't concern you. What are your needs, what are your basic expectations, what are your aspirations, what was your education and what do you expect for your kids? what is your comfort zone, what is your point where you decide something is a problem you can't stand and must be dealt with, what are the things you just let slide. Is being house proud a middle class trait? not really? but people seem to assume it to be.
>> No. 32540 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 9:34 am
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>>32534

There are loads of elements of your class upbringing that still have an effect into your adult life, both materially and psychologically, regardless of whether you start to earn enough or move into a middle class career.

You're an anomaly in the sense you're one of the socially mobile at a time when social mobility is generally on the decline.

>Similarly is, say, a plumber who has built his own business working class, even after he becomes the moneyed CEO of Bob's International Sink Repair?

I'd say he's moved from working class to the "middle" or managerial/co-ordinator class by that point, though he himself may still identify as working class.

Like you I had a thoroughly working class early life but became established in a medical field and earn a fair amount of money. I've had to accept (not without mixed feelings) that I'm now essentially middle class, even though it does make me feel a bit alienated from many of my friends and family back home.
>> No. 32544 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 10:40 am
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4HflC2L7M4
>> No. 32554 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 12:51 pm
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>>32539
I once encountered another way of looking at this in terms of relative agency. I'm not sure I entirely buy it as you can still live in a gilded cage but it's useful for looking at the poor who end up either dependant on social support and irregular work or, these days, in how sections of the economy can't work from home.

As a 'white collar' worker I have a lot of freedom in how I do my work which is a different freedom to someone being monitored in a call centre. At the same time someone self-employed might look at me as merely holding the freedom afforded to that of a well-trained monkey despite the fact that my remuneration is better and I work less hours. It might not solve this sites never-ending debate on class (how British of us) but it might be a consideration.
>> No. 32561 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 2:35 pm
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>>32554

>As a 'white collar' worker I have a lot of freedom in how I do my work which is a different freedom to someone being monitored in a call center. At the same time someone self-employed might look at me as merely holding the freedom afforded to that of a well-trained monkey despite the fact that my remuneration is better and I work less hours. It might not solve this sites never-ending debate on class (how British of us) but it might be a consideration.

I think this ties into the quality of life expectation, or maybe it is a different category of 'the devil you know'- The best example I can think is friends who have given up on dreams before they have even started, they are afraid of the failure if they try move out of their comfort zone. They feel they are trapped but in many ways they are the keeper of their own prison. I can get that, I have always been drawn towards the romance of the new age traveler/hippy lifestyle, there is nothing really stopping me except I would be so far out of my comfort zone I wouldn't know how to live like that.

Conversely part of why I identify as middle class (despite as I said being unemployed for most of the last 5 years, and if I am entirely honest the majority of the 5 years’ time before) is what my expectations is in a job, I would rather slit my wrists than work retail and weirdly that lofty expectations of my value has paid off, when I have worked it has been for finical services and biotech companies as a consultant, it wouldn't be too much of an exaggeration to say I have refuse a job at google because I didn't feel like it. And the world has inexplicably rewarded me for my hubris, if you have an expectation that your time is worth a certain amount and you belong at a certain level employers respond to that, I can't even say it is because my parents are middle class, they are quite delusional narcissist so maybe that has something to do with it, when I was young I walked in with a delusional expectations and the world is such a poor judge of character it believed me, maybe that is what the trick is to class assuming you are better and having people believe you.
>> No. 32562 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 3:03 pm
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>>32561

There's some truth to what you say.

My missus has been a doley for the majority of the last ten years, and her only motivation to get a job in the end was our aspiration of getting a mortgage. Meanwhile I've worked since I left college, and I've only been out of work for maybe twelve months altogether in the last decade. I've worked hard for a long time and my reward is to earn squarely average wages.

So when she finally got a job (which has taken her absolutely ages because nowhere will offer you a job when you've never had a job and all that), it pissed me off quite a bit that she just walked right into a nice finance quality control job where she doesn't have direct customer contact or any of that shite. She stubbornly refused to go through any of the entry level work the rest of us have to, and somehow she's been rewarded for it in the end, and with basically fuck all experience or qualifications walked into a job earning nearly the same as me. So at very least, she can hardly bring up "male privilege" if she ever finds herself so inclined.

But them's the breaks, ultimately. I could have taken the same path as her, but in the long run, actually grafting is why I have a driving license, a reasonably nice car, a nice gaming PC, massive telly, loads of frivolous shite like Warhammer and musical instruments etc... Meanwhile she has hand me downs from her family and still can't drive at almost 30. My career path is restricted because it's a niche field and I couldn't be arsed with uni, so I'll never make the big bucks to be had within it, whereas she might float up the office hierarchy and eventually out-earn me; but ultimately she knows she'll owe me my share for supporting her all this time.

The world never has been and never will be fair. But I suppose it's like anything to do with prejudice- You will never truly appreciate where the biases lie unless you've been on the sharp end of them. A middle class person hearing me go on about this probably inwardly sighs and rolls their eyes exactly the same way I do when I hear about the gender pay gap or whatever. "Give me a break, it can't be that bad."
>> No. 32570 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 3:29 pm
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>>32562

>but ultimately she knows she'll owe me my share for supporting her all this time.
I don't want to shit on her because I am sure she is lovely but I have been absolutely fucked over by a lack of reciprocity before, people can have very selective memories and virtures, but don't take my word for it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPudE8nDog0
>> No. 32571 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 4:17 pm
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>>32570

Every time someone posts a video, it's Rob Dougan - Clubbed to Death (HD), and it's a quite amusing non-sequitur sometimes. Cheers Brian.
>> No. 32573 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 4:28 pm
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>>32570
this
>> No. 32574 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 4:32 pm
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>>32570

Virtures? im not sure what that is but I meant Virtues
>> No. 32575 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 4:47 pm
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>>32554
>>32561

There is a continuum between working class and middle class, from just being a working grunt who lives paycheck to paycheck and does a job that doesn't really need a lot of qualifications, to somebody who makes conscious career choices and has the ability and the means at their disposal to get higher qualifications and actually plan their trajectory. And then I guess the continuum between middle and upper class is determined by how much you rely on your work income to afford you your lifestyle. The more prosperous you become and the more your personal assets grow, the more you are also able to make investment decisions that generate a passive income for you, and where a stretch of a few months without an actual job is no problem for you.


There's a reason why you see upper class people on a golf course at 2 pm on a Tuesday. They aren't at the mercy of an employer logging their hours, they have the freedom to decide for themselves when and how they work.

I had a defining moment while I was working at a regional mail distribution centre during uni. It was five, maybe close to ten minutes before the end of my shift once, and the supervisor said there was going to be no more mail to process for us. So I left my station and was on my way to the locker room, because I thought what harm was it going to do to fuck off five minutes early, with evidently no more work to do, but then the supervisor yelled after me what I was thinking. He said they weren't paying me to go home before my shift was over, and that I could get fired if I did it again. So I swore to myself that I'd never work in a job again where somebody gets mad at me for leaving five minutes early with all the day's work finished. And I guess there's a difference between working class and middle class jobs right there. From a certain level upwards in an office job, nobody cares if you go home a bit early when there's nothing left to do.
>> No. 32578 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 5:31 pm
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>>32562
I hate to sound like a cunt but my own experience tells me that you can easily sail into some quite high positions just by applying and having the sheer graft to keep doing it. This isn't so much a question of being middle class but having the initiative to do it after work which is somehow a scarce resource - probably because of school or wherever else makes us obedient dogs to an industrial society that no longer exists.

Something I'll never forget is being advised by a manager that I should build up some more experience before applying for the next level up in my career. Then they promptly hired someone who had been in the job for a few months because 'he had balls to apply'. Needless to say I quickly found another job and never listened to anything an authority figure said again.
>> No. 32581 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 6:28 pm
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It relates to self-identified "socialists" rather than to class directly, but I've always had a good laugh at how accurate "Neutral Evil" is in this picture.
(And god, to think there was a day when Lawful Evil existed! Obviously you still get posh socialists, but in quite a different way. Less naive, more cynical.)
>> No. 32597 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 8:59 pm
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>>32534
Your class doesn't change throughout your life. You will always be the class you were born as. That's what makes class different from income or wealth. However, your children can be a different class from you.
>> No. 32599 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 9:03 pm
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>>32597

So social mobility doesn't exist?
>> No. 32600 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 9:08 pm
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>>32599
It does for your family. The proles will never have bourgeois kiddies without social mobility. But consider, say, Frank Lampard and Harry Redknapp. Frank Lampard is descended from footballers and he's posh now, despite being a footballer himself. But Harry Redknapp is his uncle, but he has no millionaire ancestors, and so despite being a millionaire, he still comes across as a sleazy wideboy. Social mobility happened to that family, but it didn't happen to Harry Redknapp. He's the same class he's always been.
>> No. 32602 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 9:45 pm
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>>32600

I guess it's down to how you spend your formative years growing up. Your parents may have started out as working class, but if you grow up in a five-bedroom house in the suburbs because your parents are decent double earners, then that is the world you know and which you will internalise. Your playfriends will be other kids in that middle-class neighbourhood, whose parents probably always were middle class. Your toys and your hobbies will also reflect the middle class lifestyle that your working class parents can afford you.
>> No. 32609 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 11:24 pm
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>>32602
I propose the "cunt" index. Is that guy a cunt or a bit of a cunt? If that guy is a cunt then they're middle class, a bit of a cunt... probably lower class. The lower class can never be more than a bit of a cunt, the upper class can be a proper cunt or even a right cunt. All depends, really.
>> No. 32611 Anonymous
23rd March 2021
Tuesday 11:31 pm
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>>32609

Cunt is not appropriate, I've met too many working class cunts. I've never met a working class twat though. So I think that would be a better indices model.
>> No. 32625 Anonymous
24th March 2021
Wednesday 8:19 am
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>>32611
I'd be amenable to adding nuance to the cunt index by adding the twat dimension. No pillocks, though, that would ruin it.
>> No. 32645 Anonymous
24th March 2021
Wednesday 11:07 am
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>>32578

This only works in the kind of office based non-jobs that don't actually require any skills or expertise mind you. If it's something scientific or technical, you can't just blag it until they give you a job out of sheer brass, becauseit's a job you needed specialist training and qualifications in, not just a "can do" attitude and an aptitude at shifting blame.

Like, you're not going to go from a hospital cleaner to a surgeon just because you kept plugging away with applications until somebody said "I like this guy's attitude. Get him a scalpel and we'll see what he can do."

The difference is nowadays they rely on graduates and apprentices, whereas twenty tears ago you'd still find companies willing to train people up on the job or otherwise fund the specialist training they needed. This is part of what feeds into that "OK boomer" bootstrap rhetoric you'll always see the younguns posting memes about- There's a generational divide and misunderstanding about social mobility, in that these days there are much more rigid barriers in place in many fields than there used to be; and also that typical middle class myopia where their only frame of reference is office based non-jobs, so they think every career path works like that.
>> No. 32667 Anonymous
24th March 2021
Wednesday 1:58 pm
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>>32609
>>32611


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuTMWgOduFM


Still hitting the nail on the head, 25 years on.
>> No. 33411 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 6:31 am
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>A majority of UK students think there should be a compulsory test on understanding sexual consent at the start of university, a survey suggests.

>The Higher Education Policy Institute's survey found 58% of students backed the idea of having to pass a test to show they "fully understand" consent. Universities have faced warnings about sexual harassment on campus.

>The think tank's survey of 1,000 students found only a quarter felt they had been adequately prepared by sex education in school to have a "comprehensive understanding of sexual consent". There were particular concerns about understanding consent when alcohol and drugs were involved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-56921873
>> No. 33412 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 9:25 am
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>>33411

Could be useful if it engages students and makes a good case for erring on the side of caution and care, but I suspect its real-world implementation will be so poor as to just further alienate people.
>> No. 33413 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 10:12 am
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>>33412

In my entire existence I have never seen a single sexual encounter that followed the rules of consent as dictated by the people who won't shut up about it. I would go on to say the people who won't shut the fuck up about it are the worst. The actual rule seems to be; Was the person who engaged me someone I am into? If yes it doesn't matter how they behave it is fine, if no it doesn't matter how they behave it is unacceptable.
>> No. 33414 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 10:27 am
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>>33413
'Seen'? What's that supposed to mean? Are you a peeping Tom?
>> No. 33415 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 11:29 am
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>>33411
It sounds like something invented as an earner for shysters by using weasel words to bump the figure to 58%. A figure that seems awfully low for the student population now primed for this given the news. Another question then involved asking them whether consent is comprehensively taught in sex education when the whole subject is a minefield and where your partner(s!) subjective experience is what really matters.

Anyway, think about it, the presumption would be that you're a rapist and need to prove that you're not. What happens if you fail?
>> No. 33416 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 12:00 pm
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>>33414

It means I've been in enough bars and clubs to see how people who were total strangers seconds before have got together.

But yes I've also been in more fet clubs than I care to count and seen fucking break out over nothing and how other people fuck, I accept that isn't typical though, although they will all bang on about consent like they aren't the biggest hypocrites, it is the weirdest of weird the shipping forecast because what they say to each other has no connection with their reality at all.
>> No. 33417 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 12:26 pm
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>>33416
You sound like a jealous loser to be honest.
>> No. 33418 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 12:40 pm
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>>33417
No he doesn't, he just sounds like someone that has seen drunk people copping off and people in fetish clubs get worked up over perceived transgressions.

>>33414
Before the lockdown, people used to go 'outside', and they would sometimes go to a 'bar' and watch people get 'drunk' and 'tongue fuck'. If you 'worked' at a 'bar', then 'god' help you because you saw a lot of tongue fucking.
>> No. 33419 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 12:45 pm
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>>33416
I'm quite ignorant of the fetish community but isn't the idea that you go to a fet club with the explicit idea of joining a gangbang? It doesn't seem like the hobby you do much for the catering aspect.
>> No. 33420 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 12:59 pm
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>>33419

Some of us just like to stand in the corner and wank, thank you very much.
>> No. 33421 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 1:05 pm
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>>33419
>I'm quite ignorant of the fetish community but isn't the idea that you go to a fet club with the explicit idea of joining a gangbang

In the same way that tinder is a site where you meet people who are down to fuck that night, but now isn't. The reality is these things get watered down by the sheer volume of tourist, until they no longer fulfil their intended purpose. It isn't as bad as I am making it sound but don't expect to walk in the door take off your clothes and just jump into a pile of bodies.
>> No. 33428 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 1:36 pm
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>>33419

>> No. 33429 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 1:41 pm
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>>33428
SORCERY!
>> No. 33430 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 1:49 pm
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>>33419

You ususually, but not always, go there with the intention of fucking, but that doesn't mean you're up for shagging anyone who walks through the door. There's still the regular boundaries of personal space and distinction between friend and stranger. For every yummy Vorders MILF who you don't mind pushing your boundaries a bit, there's going to be three munters who make your skin crawl. And they get handsy after a few G&Ts. Imagine how it is for a young lass surrounded by dirty old men.

Mind you once you've done it a few times you either realise most of the people who attend these places are mental in one way or another. The controversies you observe in the kink community are tediously predictable, and otherlad is not entirely wrong to suggest the people involved often have some quite egregious double standards.
>> No. 33431 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 1:55 pm
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>>33428
The most confusing part of that is that black lace seem to be performing what is a parody of themselves.

I doubt anyone not around then would believe me but they were massively culturally significant. People have this idea of the 80s being cool music scenes, the reality was British music culture was far more songs by black lace or clones of them than anything else.
>> No. 33432 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:27 pm
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>>33430
Fet otherlad here, I would feel it would be a missed opportunity in these 'unprecedented times' for me not to at least ask, given the difficulty in currently meeting other people in the scene...

A/S/L?
>> No. 33433 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:32 pm
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>>33432
People were banned recently for trying to ID other posters. Maybe instead of doing it here just put the url in your fetlife profiles or something.
>> No. 33434 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:49 pm
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>>33433

That was entirely different circumstance that you seem to have confused.

That was about trying to map who said what in which thread, and dredging it up. What I am trying to do is see if someone is in meeting up for a pint range, the concepts are entirely divorced from one another. Unless there was some other situation I am unaware of.
>> No. 33435 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:50 pm
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>>33432

30/M/Beeston. Only interested if you want to stick a tailplug up my arse and call me good boy. I'm not a good boy.

I don't really count myself as "in the scene" these days, because as previously mentioned, everyone in it is mental in one way or another. It was great as an adventurous 20-something, but I don't think I can really be arsed any more. I like the ones where you just hang out and play board games in a bar more than the play events.
>> No. 33436 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:51 pm
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>>33434
A PINT OF WHAT? A PINT OF COCKS TO THE FACE?
>> No. 33437 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:52 pm
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>>33434

Maybe, I'm just being cautious.
>> No. 33438 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 2:54 pm
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>>33433
>Maybe instead of doing it here just put the url in your fetlife profiles or something

I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with you two doing recruitment at the feeder club. Can't you just list one of your interests as 'beefy poz loads'?
>> No. 33439 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 3:09 pm
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>>33435

I live far enough away we might as well be on a different planet so no tail plug for you.

But who's a Good boy? is it you? YES IT IS YES IT IS! You are a good boy.


>>33436
If you want... it's your round mate.... Drink up.

>>33437
I wouldn't worry, I don't recall meet ups ever being seen as a problem here in the past.

>>33438

But I don't want to be inundated with people offering to plenish me with their beefy poz loads maybe in your world that isn't a threat, but it is in mine!
>> No. 33440 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 3:26 pm
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>>33439

>I live far enough away we might as well be on a different planet so no tail plug for you

But I thought we all lived in Beeston?
>> No. 33441 Anonymous
29th April 2021
Thursday 4:35 pm
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>>33440
I live in Ossett, not sure about the rest of you.
>> No. 33448 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 9:06 pm
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I don't know if this takes the 'rona closures into account, but it sounds pretty aweful.
>> No. 33450 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 9:18 pm
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>>33448

1 in 3 school girls dress like an absolute little fucking slag though, so swings and roundabouts. They know exactly what they're doing.

I remember when I was in school and the teachers getting extremely distressed at the way every time they implemented some new uniform rule to curb such behaviour, the girls would find some new creative way to be provocative little sluts.

I can imagine the behaviour of some teenage girls in that phase of development being extremely distressing to try and deal with- They do it consciously and knowingly but they don't understand the repercussions.
>> No. 33451 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 9:28 pm
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>>33450
Sit and think about what you have just posted.
>> No. 33452 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 10:25 pm
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>>33450
> They do it consciously and knowingly but they don't understand the repercussions.

Do you get how that's an oxymoron?
>> No. 33453 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 10:32 pm
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>>33450
You urgently need to be disenfranchised.
>> No. 33454 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 11:08 pm
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>>33448
I mean okay I can believe that statistic, I saw enough of it when I was hanging out with girls at that age, but what are they asking us to do about it exactly? I'm not a carpet-bagger, I'm just worried when you see popular movements like these springing up that can use terms like sexual harassment when really they want to ban car horns to solve aggressive honking or push something completely unrelated to the actual harassment teens are thinking of.

>>33450
I-I can kind of see what you mean of the 2000s but think:

1. Kids are much more conservative these days. Or rather chavette culture died, the hipsters won and kids can't find dodgy pubs that will serve them underage.

2. These girls were never facilitating abusive honking from cars or the lads who wanked off outside the girl's school in their cars*. It was all an act to look cool and impress Kevin - like that cheerleader in American Beauty where she pretended to be a sex fiend. Saying that a minor, who by definition cannot consent, is seducing adults is pedoism that doesn't reflect the memories of women I've spoken with about school days nor what kids actually look like when you're an adult.

*is Gary Numan a wrong'un?
>> No. 33455 Anonymous
30th April 2021
Friday 11:32 pm
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>>33454
>*is Gary Numan a wrong'un?
Probably, but not criminally so. Third tit sort of business I reckon.
>> No. 33456 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 1:01 am
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>>33455
He married one of his own superfans which is a bit sus if you ask me. Not in the sense that I don't expect celebrities to screw their fans but when you're a superstar it seems a bit wrong, especially as she famously stalks his fans.

Let's hope we can't guess his computer password.
>> No. 33457 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 2:18 am
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>>33456

His wife is fucking terrifying though.
>> No. 33458 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 2:30 am
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>>33451
>>33452
>>33453

Listen, you terminal divs. I'm not condoning schoolgirls being abused, because adults should know better. If you took that conclusion away from my post, you're projecting it, read it again and try find the bit that condones it.

But nevertheless. What I posted was absolutely true and you can't deny it. There's a perfectly valid argument that a woman should be able to dress how she likes and not be objectified, but I think it's equally valid to argue back that you shouldn't dress in a sexually provocative manner unless you intend to sexually provoke. That should go doubly for underage fucking girls.

>>33454

>Kids are much more conservative these days

I'll take your word for that then. I don't hang about playgrounds enough to have noticed, I just remember the birds from my high school going out dressed like prostitutes and getting served in basically any bar they went to when they were 14-15.

The fact they're too young to consent is only a technicality- They were doing that out of their own free will. They WANT to do it. The fact they don't understand why it's a bad thing is evidence we're failing in our responsibility as adults to stop them doing things they don't understand, not evidence men are too rapey.
>> No. 33459 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 2:43 am
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>>33454

>seducing adults is pedoism that doesn't reflect the memories of women I've spoken with about school days

I don't want you to think I am I am advocating something I am not. But people have very selective memories about who they were in their school days, that don't reflect reality. Every generation does it like clockwork.
>> No. 33460 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 8:25 am
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>>33458
> read it again and try find the bit that condones it.
Ok.

> I can imagine the behaviour of some teenage girls in that phase of development being extremely distressing to try and deal with- They do it consciously and knowingly but they don't understand the repercussions.

You may not have intended it to come out that way, but the way you phrased it states that the targets are asking for it and that should lower the culpability of the actor. If a fucking school uniform doesn't put someone off then they need to have a word with themselves.
>> No. 33461 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 8:30 am
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>>33458

Mate you literally used the "shes asking for it" argument, even if you think you didn't.
>> No. 33462 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 4:07 pm
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>>33461

I did, what I'm saying is that the asking for it argument isn't entirely invalid.

If I wore a t-shirt saying "I HATE laplanderS" on the front of it, you wouldn't credibly attempt to argue I'm not asking for a punch in the face.
>> No. 33463 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 4:32 pm
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>>33458
>I'll take your word for that then. I don't hang about playgrounds enough to have noticed, I just remember the birds from my high school going out dressed like prostitutes and getting served in basically any bar they went to when they were 14-15.

Well that's the thing, its different now and has been for a long time. When's the last time you saw youths up to no good that wasn't in a protest? When's the last time you saw kids smoking for that matter? Fucking nerds the lots of 'em.

>The fact they're too young to consent is only a technicality- They were doing that out of their own free will. They WANT to do it. The fact they don't understand why it's a bad thing is evidence we're failing in our responsibility as adults to stop them doing things they don't understand, not evidence men are too rapey.

I don't see why "don't molest this obvious child wearing a school uniform" is so hard. What you're saying is that they WANT to dress slutty, but there's a disconnect between that and flashing your cock at them ignoring your own responsibility as an adult to not be a carpet-bagger.
>> No. 33464 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 4:36 pm
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>>33463
Not him but/and
>your own responsibility as an adult
I'd be curious to know if that statistic takes into account the age of their assailants. I could well be wrong but I'm guessing it's mostly their peers doing it.
Not that this makes it acceptable necessarily but it's a different conversation to talking about adults flashing them or whatever the general molester-tropes are.
>> No. 33465 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 7:11 pm
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>>33463

The thing is we don't live in a black and white world. It's all well and good to say that no adults should have to think twice about the fact it's a schoolgirl and therefore obviously underage, there will always be someone out there who doesn't give a fuck. It's not unreasonable to suggest young lasses could do their bit too by not dressing like complete tarts. Reality always ends up favouring a bit of both.

My mathematical proof here, like reversing an equation, is that you could make essentially the same argument in the opposite direction and it'd still be wrong. If all schoolgirls covered themselves head to toe that would prevent anyone ever assaulting them because they can't see anything to tempt them. Is sexual assault any less common in countries where women have to wear a full hijab and live in cupboards to separate them from the men? Probably not, but I bet you a tenner they don't get wolf whistled at on the way home from school.
>> No. 33466 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 7:33 pm
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>>33464

You have actually hit a nail on the head. I Remember a few years back reading some stat put out by the NSPCC about sexual child abuse, and on further inspection it turned out a lot of that was 'peer to peer' abuse on a further deep dive it turned out that a lot of that included what I would consider healthy developmental exploration. Children playing "kiss chase" and teens showing porno to their mates. There really is no limit to the shameless as to how these groups will distort the truth for money.
>> No. 33467 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 7:40 pm
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>>33463

Even if a 15-year-old girl feels like showing off her recently developed feminine features, then she definitely doesn't do it to attract a 40-year-old Jimmy Savile wannabe. Even if you somehow manage to argue with any amount of substance that teenage girls are attracted to older men, then no, you cannot possibly assume that that should include the middle-aged you, and that that gives you any right to go in on it.

It's a vulnerable age, one where as a teenager you develop a sex drive and sexual behaviours, but where you can fall victim to adults who don't know any better and would have an all too easy time preying on you and taking advantage of you, if it weren't for certain laws.

There is also the idea of closeness in age in British law, i.e. there isn't much chance you will be prosecuted if you're 17, even 18, and have consensual sex with a 15 year old. It's a bit of a grey area, but normally you will be fine. So you can't really argue that the age of consent of 16 restricts anybody's freedom at that age to have age-appropriate romantic relationships. The law only shuts out you as a full adult, as well it should.


>>33465

>there will always be someone out there who doesn't give a fuck

They won't be "out there" for long though. Not with the heightened awareness we've seen the last 20 years or so.
>> No. 33468 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 8:07 pm
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>>33467
>then she definitely doesn't do it to attract a 40-year-old Jimmy Savile wannabe.

Depends, I don't doubt that if you were their teacher, an athlete, in a band, or of course the actual Jimmy Savile at the age of 40, there wouldn't be some possibility of interest.

of course they don't want the billy no mates trainspotter peado with no looks, but that is a strawman and is probably the idea that is what a peadoes is the reason why the celeb ones were able to fly under the radar for decades.
>> No. 33469 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:09 pm
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>>33468

>I don't doubt that if you were their teacher, an athlete, in a band, or of course the actual Jimmy Savile at the age of 40, there wouldn't be some possibility of interest.

Even so, you'll be the responsible adult in that scenario, and besides doing your best to avoid a prison term, you should take a good look at yourself.

And just because some in-shape, still somewhat youthful 40-year-old singer or actor gets butterflies going in a 15 year old's stomach, doesn't mean a) that she's really going to think about shagging him, and b) that that is something we should allow to happen. From what I remember about being that age and trying to figure out girls, for most of them it's really 90 percent vague romantic fantasy, and ten percent of tantalising speculation what it'd be like to touch a knob for the first time. Yes, there are some slags at 15 who have seen it all and done it all, but it's not really reasonable to assume that they represent the majority, or that they aren't still vulnerable to adults abusing them. Maybe they are even more at risk.


>but that is a strawman and is probably the idea that is what a peadoes is the reason why the celeb ones were able to fly under the radar for decades.

The celeb paedos got away with it because they were in a position of power and because they successfully instilled a sense in their victims that nobody would believe them anyway. Do you think you would have been in an emotional position at that age to bring down a national icon like Savile, who was at the time the most revered children's philantropist in the country? A lot of times, it takes victims decades to even come out against a lowly PE teacher who touched them all the way back in year 10.
>> No. 33470 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:22 pm
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This is the worst fucking discussion I've seen on this site in a long time.
>> No. 33471 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:25 pm
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>>33470
It almost always happens when discussing women.
>> No. 33472 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:37 pm
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>>33469

>And just because some in-shape, still somewhat youthful 40-year-old singer or actor gets butterflies going in a 15 year old's stomach, doesn't mean a) that she's really going to think about shagging him, and b) that that is something we should allow to happen.

I don't know how old the lad from My Chemical Romance was in their heyday, but teenage girls definitely and seriously wanted to fuck him. I know this because my first girlfriend was obsessed with him, and our very first sexual interactions with each other (and the first real ones that would lead anywhere for both of us) were me teasing her over the erotic fanfiction I'd caught her reading about him. I think we were about 13 or 14.

I'd be extremely surprised if he hasn't had one or two who definitely said they were 18, m'lord. Either that or he will have had to go completely chaste for about five years, because the only people who wanted to shag him were tweens with have self-harming problems.
>> No. 33473 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:41 pm
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>>33472
>I don't know how old the lad from My Chemical Romance was in their heyday
The Black Parade (2006–2009), Gerard Way born 1977 so 29.
>> No. 33474 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:44 pm
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>>33473
Sorry to interject. However, according the photograph's filename the man who took it is called "Gage Skidmore", is this correct?
>> No. 33475 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 9:55 pm
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>>33473

I suppose this was around 2004-5, just before their peak and then fade. It was around the time American Idiot was the hottest shit. Everyone wore converse and skinny jeans. I was the world's biggest Metallica fan. I hope I'm painting a strong mental picture.

Either way, he was in the latter half of his 20s, so I suppose it's less worse than a proper 40 year old Gary Glitter case. But it's still pretty sickening if I think about it in relation to the actual girls I knew at that time, who still only exist in my mind as the daft young girls I knew them as back then. There were definitely some of them who would have fooled you if they lied about their age.

This sort of thing is disturbingly common really when you think about it, there's a whole generation of girls who got their first wet fanny over Robert Pattinson in Twilight, probably going all the way back to the Beatles. I just think it's a naive attitude to totally discount the agency of teenage girls.

Do you think they ever gave some sort of primer to those like, manufactured boybands like Busted and McFly? Come to think of it I bet this sort of thing is half the reason they only ever played big well managed gigs where you'd never bump into them backstage having a fag, like you do at "real" gigs. The suits behind the acts knew exactly what they were doing with their marketing and they probably had to sign some sort of contract forbidding them to interact with the fans outside of staged appearances, because 100% of that fanbase was jailbait.
>> No. 33476 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 10:00 pm
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>>33469
>even so, you'll be the responsible adult in that scenario, and besides doing your best to avoid a prison term, you should take a good look at yourself.

I don't know why you are incapable of telling the difference between someone telling you how the world works and someone advocating for it, but you seem to be. It feels like over compensation to me like a homophobic closeted hate preacher.

>Do you think you would have been in an emotional position at that age to bring down a national icon like Savile

Short answer yes. It is only when I have gotten older I have given enough shit about the consequences of social pressure to not speak my truth all the time. When I was young I was entirely fearless in that regard, to the point I was in retrospect probably a bully, he would have to chop me up and bury me in the woods to stop me telling everyone. I might not have been normal in that respect but such ideas never phased me. I wanted to be a martyr.
>> No. 33477 Anonymous
1st May 2021
Saturday 10:15 pm
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>>33474
Apparently:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gage
>> No. 33478 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 11:25 am
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>>33476
He wouldn't have pursued you then. Jim only fixed it for kids who wouldn't do that. This was why he hung out around orphanages and hospitals; nobody would listen to some sickly Tiny Tim who showed up in this country strapped under a lorry and had to beg for food outside supermarkets. You can do whatever you want to such people, if that's your scene, and it's much easier than noncing some righteous militant.
>> No. 33479 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 12:55 pm
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>>33478
>nobody would listen to some sickly Tiny Tim who showed up in this country strapped under a lorry

Did Saville carpet-bagger any of the brown eyed swarms? I've never thought about it before but I can't remember anyone with a darker complexion being in the news. I'm not saying he wouldn't but the 40 year old unaccompanied minors seems more like a modern phenomenon.
>> No. 33480 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 1:19 pm
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>>33478

One reason why all those programmes who teach children how to fight off paedos emphasize assertive posture. carpet-baggers often have an all too easy time overpowering a scared 12 year old who doesn't put up a fight. But if that 12 year old suddenly starts kicking and screaming and calls for help, then that's going to catch many paedos off guard, and there is actually a good chance it'll stop them dead in their tracks, which can give that child a decisive few seconds to escape.

One of my dad's old friends from school got a community sentence for fondling his godchild, and when he then reoffended and did more serious things to another kid, he served a prison term. His method of getting to children was to earn the trust of people his age who had kids, and then either inviting those kids for sleepovers, or creating circumstances where he spent the night at that family's house, and then touched the kids while the parents were asleep.

He tried the same thing with my brother and me when he slept over at our house once, but luckily my dad caught him just in time before he was able to actually do anything. My parents threw him out in the middle of the night at 3 am, and my dad said something like, "If you promise we'll never see you again, I'll call you a cab, but if you don't, I'm going to call the police right now".

This was the 80s, mind. I'm pretty sure parents these days wouldn't fuck around and call police straight away. My point is, there are paedos who are somewhat smart in earning people's trust, and in which case it's also going to be much more difficult for a child to tell their parents that their "family friend" touched them inappropriately.
>> No. 33481 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 2:22 pm
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>>33480

It sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth, this noncing.
>> No. 33482 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 3:14 pm
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>>33481
For me, the worst thing aside from the obvious would be that children are insufferable. Best of luck trying to get your abducted child to eat the asparagus lasagne you spent all that time on and if you give in and let them eat sugar all day you'll only have yourself to blame for what happens.

Maybe that's the real cure for pedos. You get 50 odd kids for them to look after over a weekend - initially they're like a dog with too many tennis balls but then the real punishment dawns on them as everything they hold dear is broken. Get them some proper mean ones in all, so when they try putting on a Gary Glitter record they will get bullied and someone will start blaring out the latest mumble rapper.
>> No. 33484 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 3:59 pm
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>>33482

>For me, the worst thing aside from the obvious would be that children are insufferable.

>Maybe that's the real cure for pedos.


I don't know. I find many women insufferable, especially in larger groups, but it has never put me off wanting to shag women in general.

If it weren't for pure lizard brain urges, I'm not sure many men would choose to spend their life with a woman, and vice versa. Look at all the drama you always go through.
>> No. 33485 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 5:44 pm
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>>33484
Oh I don't know, hanging out with the lads is necessary but aside from sex a bird does provide something fresh to life. I'm having trouble putting my finger on what exactly it is but internet people still seem sad despite all the wanking and dakimakura.

Help me out lads, what can I get from a partner that I can't get from a child.
>> No. 33486 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 6:02 pm
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>>33485

>Help me out lads, what can I get from a partner that I can't get from a child.

A clean criminal record.
>> No. 33487 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 6:41 pm
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>>33485
In my experience, women are much nicer than men. Some of them aren't, I guess, but I don't want to have sex with those ones. The niceness is very important. You can be yourself around them and they will be encouraging and supportive. The #lads aren't that nice; if you go to them with a problem, they'll just call you gay, or at least imply it with their smirking glances to each other as you speak. I can't imagine kids are that nice either. Also, in addition to being parasites, you will have very little in common with a child. You will ask them if they remember the 1998 World Cup, and they won't have been born yet. Their favourite YouTuber won't be a normal one like Hydraulic Press Channel or Bald & Bankrupt; it'll be some American with white teeth who screams while opening boxes containing the latest iPhone. There will be absolutely no emotional compatibility there. Even if you fancy kids, you're only going after them for the sexual impulses; you can't possibly want to form a genuine relationship with one. It's just about meaningless sex for paedophiles. And in the end, that's the real crime.
>> No. 33488 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 6:43 pm
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>>33487
Good post.
>> No. 33489 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 6:58 pm
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>>33487

>The #lads aren't that nice; if you go to them with a problem, they'll just call you gay, or at least imply it with their smirking glances to each other as you speak.

Get better friends.

Women are the last people I go to with my problems. They can't help it, but showing any kind of weakness to them lowers their estimations of you. Even the nicest ones with the most modern and switched on attitudes to mental health and what have you, they simply can't help it.

I genuinely believe this is part of the reason why depression is such a vicious cycle for men. It actively makes them less desirable to mate with.
>> No. 33490 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 7:23 pm
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>>33487

This wouldn't just be true for a child you'll hypothetically try to strike up a conversation with after you've done the deed. Even consenting adults with big age differences run into that problem. The absolute high point of my younglad days were things like Oasis at Knebworth. Somebody who was born that year is now 25, so she'd be an adult and not a clueless teenlass anymore, but still, there would always be half a generation of pop culture missing between us.

I'd shag a halfway fit 25 year old in a heartbeat, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure we'd have much to talk about besides that, unless she's somehow weirdly into 90s britpop, grunge, or nu metal.


>>33489

I think it's still predominantly an assumption that women are really nicer than lads. Women can be cruel, conniving and catty in ways that a bloke would never even consider. With guy friends, it's usually all pretty straightforward. And if they won't listen to your problems, you just need different guy friends.

Also, the lasses that you connect with in a way that they'll listen to your problems, and maybe you to theirs, will most likely not want to shag you. Maybe some of them will appreciate your sensitive side and actually take things from there, but in my experience, it's not that likely.
>> No. 33491 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 7:51 pm
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>>33487
>In my experience, women are much nicer than men.

That might just be that we're a dead sexy bunch though. Women certainly don't seem too keen on one another.

>>33490
>I'd shag a halfway fit 25 year old in a heartbeat, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure we'd have much to talk about besides that, unless she's somehow weirdly into 90s britpop, grunge, or nu metal.

I suppose it depends on how comfortable you are with being labelled 'vintage'. You'll certainly have to lock the records away or she might nick 'em and go on antiques roadshow.
>> No. 33492 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 7:58 pm
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>>33490

It doesn't even have to be that big of a gap before you feel a bit disconnected I find. My last ex was five or six years younger than me. I think we started going out when I was 25-26, and she was 20 or 21.

It doesn't sound like a lot but it was telling in the totally different attitude she had on things like social media. I'm just old enough to remember the days where it wasn't really a big thing and you still phoned/texted people to organise things, but she'd gone through her whole adolescence with things like Facebook being the norm. I was reaching a point in my life where I wanted to save up for a mortgage and think about the future a bit more seriously; she was still firmly in the #yolo stage and she'd often pressure me towards making financially reckless decisions like an impulse holiday or whatever.

It probably makes less of a difference in the post-30ish age range, where no matter how old you are, the people you date are already going to more or less have their shit together, so to speak. A 35 year old dating a 45 year old probably don't have massively different priorities like a 20 year old and a 30 year old might.
>> No. 33493 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 8:07 pm
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>>33490

>I think it's still predominantly an assumption that women are really nicer than lads.

Women are nice to men because they're always a little bit scared that we'll murder them. They're absolute bitches to each other a lot of the time, because there's not the same physical threat.
>> No. 33494 Anonymous
2nd May 2021
Sunday 8:32 pm
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>>33493

>women are nice to men because they're always a little bit scared that we'll murder them.

Bit oversimplistic. Let me offer my equally simplistic view that a lot of them are also nice to us because they know we want to shag them, and will do things for them if there's even the slightest hint that it might get us in bed with them. Which it almost never will.


>>33492

You do go through several developmental milestones between age 20 and 26. Most people are still at uni or in some other kind of training at 20, while that's starting to thin out by your mid-20s as most people will have a job and will start thinking about their future.

As a younglad, I was at uni at that age and was pretty much clubbing off my tits every night of the week. If you'd said something to me like "But what about graduating and getting a job and your own place", I would have said piss off granddad.

Six years age difference is a long time at that age. But from about your late 20s on, it's not going to be that significant anymore when your partner is six years younger or older. You will roughly be at the same stages in life, and because blokes usually take a bit longer to settle down in life than women, it'll come out about even.
>> No. 33498 Anonymous
3rd May 2021
Monday 1:31 pm
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Not even a guilty would, am I right?
>> No. 33499 Anonymous
3rd May 2021
Monday 1:33 pm
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>>33498

Anyone know what this is about? There's one on a felled tree in my local park I assumed was just a fuckup with the chainsaws but seeing this I'm wondering if it's deliberate.
>> No. 33501 Anonymous
3rd May 2021
Monday 1:51 pm
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>>33499
It's a plunge cut of some sort, but no idea what is about. It's not somthing you'd accidentally do.
>> No. 33502 Anonymous
3rd May 2021
Monday 1:55 pm
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>>33501
>It's a plunge cut
Thanks, that was enough information to find out.
>On trees with forward lean, the traditional “race to the hinge” backcut will sooner or later result in an explosive “barber chair,” in which the tree splits at the base, kicking backwards and falling in an uncontrolled manner. On trees leaning backwards or in other undesirable directions, a bore cut allows you to use wedges to control the direction of its fall.
>> No. 33652 Anonymous
23rd May 2021
Sunday 12:56 am
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We're through the looking glass here, people.
>> No. 33868 Anonymous
1st June 2021
Tuesday 10:36 pm
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>Sarah Everard died as a result of compression of the neck, a post-mortem examination has found.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57260746

What exactly is compression of the neck? I assume it's different to strangulation/asphyxiation if they haven't been given as the cause of death. Did she receive the George Floyd treatment?
>> No. 33869 Anonymous
1st June 2021
Tuesday 10:41 pm
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>>33868

Ah. It's one of those kinky sex gone wrong cases.
>> No. 33873 Anonymous
2nd June 2021
Wednesday 1:05 am
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>>33868
Maybe it's a blood flow thing? You can press your veins and arteries in your neck quite easily; I can imagine it would kill you if someone wanted to do that. Meanwhile, I think George Floyd officially died of a heart attack, which was why the defence for Derek Chauvin argued that it was the drugs that killed him. If you Floyded Sarah Everard and she didn't have a heart attack, she might have just had the blood flow cut off to her brain. Although I do strongly suspect she was murdered a little more vigorously than is being implied by that report.
>> No. 33874 Anonymous
2nd June 2021
Wednesday 7:52 am
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>>33868
It's injury to the spine.
>> No. 33972 Anonymous
10th June 2021
Thursday 6:53 pm
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>>33873
>I think George Floyd officially died of a heart attack
This is partly a case of medical terms confusing lay people.
You have a heart attack when your heart stops receiving enough oxygen to pump blood correctly. When writing death certificates doctors are usually very pedantic about only writing things that that can see direct evidence of. So they will write that they died of a heart attack but avoid conjecture about possible causes of that lack of oxygen.
>> No. 34504 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 4:29 pm
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>Met Police officer Wayne Couzens has pleaded guilty to the murder of Sarah Everard. The firearms officer snatched her as she walked home from a friend's house in Clapham on 3 March, driving her away in a car he had hired. The 33-year-old's body was found a week later in woodland near Ashford, Kent, metres from land owned by Couzens. She had been raped and strangled. Couzens, 48, will be sentenced at the Old Bailey on 29 September.

>The Independent Office for Police Conduct said on Friday that a total of 12 gross misconduct or misconduct notices had so far been served on police officers from multiple forces in relation to the Couzens case, including about the handling of two separate claims that Couzens had indecently exposed himself.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57774597

Twelve misconduct notices. ACAB.
>> No. 34505 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 4:36 pm
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>>34504
I think https://theoneworldnews.com/europe/met-police-investigate-officers-and-staff-accessing-sarah-everard-case-files/ has a bit more detail:
>Officers and staff are being investigated for looking up details of the Sarah Everard case on the police computer system
>In a separate investigation, the police watchdog is examining one officer linked to the case, after sharing a highly offensive graphic with colleagues.

In other news:
>There were "multiple failings" by the Metropolitan Police and Avon and Somerset Police at a vigil for Sarah Everard and "Kill the Bill" protests, a parliamentary inquiry has found.

>Police breached "fundemental rights" of those attending both events in the way they handled them at Clapham Common, south-west London, and in Bristol in March, according to the All Party Parliamentary Group on Democracy and the Constitution (APPGDC).

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-30/police-handling-of-london-vigil-and-bristol-demo-breached-fundamental-rights
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57681739
>> No. 34507 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 4:43 pm
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>>34504
I find this case so distressing and I'm not a woman. The whole thing just makes no sense.
>> No. 34508 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 4:58 pm
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>>34507
I think what can often get overlooked in our society is that rotters gravitate towards careers that put them in proximity of those they wish to abuse and exploit.

Sarah Everard's killer took a job as a policeman as it's a position of trust and authority that he used to his advantage to target women. There's certainly other coppers who joined up for less than honourable reasons. It's why paedos go for roles that will put them in proximity with children. I'm a financial adviser and, fuck me, maybe not every other IFA in the country is a crook but it's not fucking far off.
>> No. 34509 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 5:19 pm
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>>34508

"Rotter"? That's a stranger euphemism for "murderer", Moggy. Police recruits undergo psychological screening before they're given their roles, if people like Couzens and the ones who're under investigation and the ones running operations that are either unlawful or breach human rights not only get past the screening but find themselves able to act in these ways then it's not an occasional fluke, it's institutional and it's by design.
>> No. 34512 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 6:25 pm
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>>34509
You can screen for some things.
People with certain inclinations who are otherwise self-aware and high-functioning are fully capable of seeming like a completely normal person until it's too late.
>> No. 34514 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 6:47 pm
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>>34505
>Officers and staff are being investigated for looking up details of the Sarah Everard case on the police computer system

I'd be tempted to look it up myself just to be nosy.

>>34509
>it's institutional and it's by design

You're just being silly.
>> No. 34515 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 6:49 pm
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>>34512
That doesn't account for them being promoted to, then propped up in despite repeated outcry, positions of power.
>> No. 34516 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 6:51 pm
34516 spacer
>>34509
>"Rotter"? That's a stranger euphemism for "murderer", Moggy.
That was a very useful thing to say, a wonderful contribution.

>it's institutional and it's by design.
It's probably not though, is it. What exactly are you suggesting and is there any proof of it?
>> No. 34517 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 6:55 pm
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>>34516

What it says.
>> No. 34518 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 7:05 pm
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>>34517

I don't think that particular combination of words really means quite what you're using it to describe.

There's a level of complicity to bad policing, but I think it's a stretch to say it's entirely the intended operation of a police force; if for no other reason that getting bad press over it makes them less trustworthy and therefore less effective in their real role as a social control mechanism.

Institutional is a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot nowadays, and it's worth thinking about what it really means. In this context it describes the way humans naturally cover up for their mates, or for things that would make them look bad. Every institution has institutional problems, things that become baked into the culture over the years, and the only way round that is somehow not having institutions. Whereas what people seem to mean when they use the word these days is an assertion that the institution is fundamentally built upon that flaw.
>> No. 34519 Anonymous
9th July 2021
Friday 7:59 pm
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>>34518

I'll accept that.
>> No. 34521 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 11:46 am
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>>34512
>You can screen for some things.
>People with certain inclinations who are otherwise self-aware and high-functioning are fully capable of seeming like a completely normal person until it's too late.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sarah-everards-killer-wayne-couzens-24505477.amp
>Sarah Everard's killer Wayne Couzens 'was known as The Rapist before joining police'
>> No. 34522 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 12:21 pm
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>>34521
I don't really see the point being made here. Is the suggestion that developed vetting should include interviewing every single person you've ever met to ask them what nicknames they had for you?

This story smacks of a lay person not understanding what they're reporting on who is trying to whip up outrage amongst lay people who don't understand it either.
>> No. 34524 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 12:31 pm
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>>34522
It hardly takes a degree in human resources to see why his implication is dumb as bricks.
>> No. 34525 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 1:06 pm
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>>34522
No, the suggestion is that he's clearly not "fully capable of seeming like a completely normal person until it's too late". If your screening process isn't picking out someone with that many publicly known tells, what's it doing at all?
>> No. 34526 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 1:45 pm
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>>34525
Every man who makes women feel uncomfortable is a rapist?
>> No. 34527 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 2:05 pm
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>>34526

Well, the fisherfolk lot are trying to push a new law through that basically makes "making a woman feel uncomfortable" a crime, so yes, I suppose so.
>> No. 34528 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 2:12 pm
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>>34527
More details?
>> No. 34529 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 3:20 pm
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>>34526
That one certainly is. Again, what's the screening doing if it's not screening out rapists and murderers who aren't capable of hiding it, as happened here?
>> No. 34530 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 4:23 pm
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>>34529
When there's a box on the questionnaire asking "are you planning on raping or killing anyone?" they tend to answer "no".

How exactly do you screen out rapists and killers?
>> No. 34531 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 4:25 pm
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>>34530
Are the concepts of background checks and psychological evaluation totally new to you?
>> No. 34532 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 4:30 pm
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>>34531
Explain to me how they work and how they'd have been able to weed out Wayne Couzens when the current vetting processes didn't.
>> No. 34533 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 4:51 pm
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>>34532
They work the same way as the current ones only you have higher standards for screening out authoritarian bullies and people who are known by their colleagues as "The Rapist". I know it's a cutesy nickname that every other lad gets but you know, I think they can probably cope with not putting anyone called The Rapist in a position of authority over women. I know it means all the countless harmless lads, who don't make anyone uncomfortable, but are nonetheless called The Rapist, won't get to be police but I think that's just a sacrifice we'll have to make.
Certainly not as though someone being called The Rapist is a reason to investigate them further, given that they are incapable of passing as normal, you think they'd check and then notice other red flags.
>> No. 34534 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 5:19 pm
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>>34533
How would this screening uncover that he'd been nicknamed 'The Rapist' in a former role?
>> No. 34535 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 5:25 pm
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>>34534
They could try asking people that worked with him in that former role.
>> No. 34536 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 5:49 pm
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>>34535
Don't know about you but I'd certainly feel uncomfortable with repeating rumours and things I can't necessarily prove officially. Not least as anyone who has their clearance denied is going to appeal and you're going to look a monumental twat when you then say '...yeah I called him a rapist because I heard rumours and he's a bit weird'. It might be how you get Savilles but you need some pretty good proof before you say anything for good reason.

If we're talking about how many people they ask then personally I have already found that programme difficult as someone who doesn't maintain multi-year friendships with professionals.
>> No. 34537 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 5:54 pm
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>>34535
How do we know they didn't already do that? If you asked my bosses I guarantee they wouldn't know even half of the nicknames people have at work.
>> No. 34538 Anonymous
11th July 2021
Sunday 11:32 pm
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>>34533

If it was as easy as just making the current process better, don't you think they'd just already have done that? If the counter-argument there is "well of course they haven;t done that because they want rapists and bullies, it's institutional" then that also tells you why it doesn't matter how hard you screen, because the pigs want to let rapist bullies in either way. You are arguing from a totally non-pragmatic position that assumes in complete naivety that anyone at any level of these organisations is acting in good faith or gives a fuck.

And frankly that is by far the bigger and more realistic threat to society than any crypto-sexism or institutional carpet poaching. It's just good, old fashioned, honest fecklessness.
>> No. 34539 Anonymous
12th July 2021
Monday 9:17 am
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>>34538
>You are arguing from a totally non-pragmatic position that assumes in complete naivety that anyone at any level of these organisations is acting in good faith or gives a fuck.
Pretty sure I was arguing that they don't and that it's a problem.
>> No. 34687 Anonymous
18th July 2021
Sunday 1:37 pm
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Everyone is talking about who can handle the McSpicy challenge. So I decided to see what the fuss was all about and took on the challenge for myself. Sadly the experience wasn't quite what I expected after being ruined by sexual harassment in my local McDonald's.

So let's start from the beginning - I'd held back on the snacks throughout the day so I was extra hungry for the talk of the town treat. Dramatically gasping for nutrition, I headed down to my nearest McDonald's on Jameson Street around 8pm. Being the modern woman I am I opted to order on the electronic screen. Feeling excited I took my number 60 ticket and waited in line.

Sadly my experience was completely ruined by a drunken Stella-reeking man who thought he was the dogs bollocks of the town when in fact he was just rather embarrassing and creepy. A man stumbled in to McDonald's shrieking at the top of his voice while saying "hiya mate" on the phone and cackling his head off. At first I didn't think much of it and thought he was just a drunken man coming in for some food to sober up - many of us can relate. But his volume and husky voice was all anyone could hear. He was shouting down the phone to his friend about nonsense.

At first I didn't think much of it and thought he was just a drunken man coming in for some food to sober up - many of us can relate. But his volume and husky voice was all anyone could hear. He was shouting down the phone to his friend about nonsense.

He was just being completely obnoxious and thought it was the most hilarious thing ever. He said: "Yeah yeah I'm in McDonald's mate where you at?" He ordered his food and stumbled over to the waiting-for-food area. His trousers were falling down and he stunk of beer. I noticed he was wearing an eye patch and looked like he had been in a fight of some kind.

But I was trying not to be judgemental and was playing on my phone whilst I awaited for my food - it looked like it was going to take a while. Across the other side to where I was stood were two young girls. They were smiling and giggling together, but not before long the creepy drunk stumbled over to them. On the phone he said to his friend: "There's some right girls in here. I don't know how old she is." He was laughing like an evil villain. Looking slightly disgusted, the two of them ignored him. He went over to one girl and said: "How old are you?", whilst breathing heavily down her neck. She said: "I'm 15." The man I am going to nickname McCreepy said: "Oh are you?" He stumbled away and said to his friend: "Ayyy she's 15 mate. Yeah I just asked her. Am I going to get arrested? Shhhh I'm gonna get arrested in here me."

I was watching over in case he said anything else to the CHILD. The frightened girl luckily was called up next to get her food and managed to escape his weird ways. I then became his next victim. I moved away from him, making quite the point I didn't want to speak to him. Yet he kept coming closer to me. When I say closer, well he was almost pressed up against me. But I didn't want to cause a fuss as he had quite an aggressive tone, and well, the eye patch which looked like he'd been in a fight.

His eyes were piercing at the back of me staring at my bum. Literally what could I do - not have a bum? If I turned the other way there he'd either try speak to me or make comments about another part of my body. There was no way out. Trapped in McDonalds. Starving. Horrified. Over it. I turned around and glared at him as he was smirking from ear to ear. He said to his friend: "Aye. I'd love to pin some of these birds in here down right now. She's proper sticking her bum out this one." The creepy laughing went right through me and I was really starting to feel uncomfortable.

Not that it matters what I was wearing. If I was there in underwear it's still uncalled for, but I had on a smart work outfit, a blouse and a pencil skirt. I wasn't engaging with anyone I was literally there to get food after work. Still waiting and almost being reduced to tears by this imbecile, I moved even further away from him. He then said: "Oh mate she's a fucking twat. Little twat. If girls don't want to be looked at then they shouldn't wear short skirts should they." The room was silent apart from his echoing voice. Everyone felt so awkward and uncomfortable. His stench could be smelt from the other side of the room and he was still blabbering on and on and heckling with his disturbing laugh.

I was counting down the seconds, and sweating until it was my number called. 58 had been called, I thought "it's got to be me soon", but the wait dragged on. Finally! It's me. The lady behind the counter called, "number 60", as I ran up grabbed my bag of food and sipped on my Fanta. I swiftly walked out of McDonalds and the fresh air outside never felt so good. He's gone. I'm fine. Never have to see him again (hopefully). Thank goodness.


https://www.hullPlease ban me.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/all-wanted-mcspicy-burger-didnt-5664688
>> No. 34688 Anonymous
18th July 2021
Sunday 1:49 pm
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>>34687
That reads like dodgy fanfiction.
>> No. 34689 Anonymous
18th July 2021
Sunday 2:24 pm
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>>34687
>If I was there in underwear it's still uncalled for, but I had on a smart work outfit, a blouse and a pencil skirt

Hasn't she ever been ravenously felt up by a partner while trying to get ready for work?
>> No. 34692 Anonymous
18th July 2021
Sunday 2:54 pm
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>>34687
We've all met a loutish drunken wanker at some point in our lives. It's awkward when they inconvenience me, it's awkward when they inconvenience ethnic minorities, and it's awkward when they inconvenience this woman. I guess if her whining rids the world of wankers forever, then good for her and she's saved us all, but the whole thing reads to me like she's outraged at herself suffering a hardship that is almost universal.
>> No. 34704 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 1:49 am
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347043470434704

>> No. 34705 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 7:55 am
34705 spacer
>>34704
>pedo

You've got to remember that Septics have taken paedo hysteria to a whole new level. If you've been on rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk then it's a regular occurrence for American men to post about how they had the police called on them for taking their children by themself to a playground or for even being alone in the vicinity of a park.
>> No. 34712 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 1:42 pm
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>>34688
>>34689
>>34692
Everyone who is doubting or minimising her story is part of the problem. You should be ashamed, lads.
>> No. 34713 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 1:46 pm
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>>34712

Our resident Americans have learned to end their posts with ", lads." now, I see.
>> No. 34714 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 3:21 pm
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>>34712
I added as many disclaimers as I could. But maybe you are not serious. Perhaps your posts are all satire. The really unsettling thing is that I really, honestly cannot tell.
>> No. 34720 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 8:37 pm
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>>34714
Don't take anything here at face value. It's all satire. And some of it is double-satire so it's identical to something posted at face value.
>> No. 34721 Anonymous
19th July 2021
Monday 8:37 pm
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>>34712
>Everyone who is doubting or minimising her story is part of the problem. You should be ashamed, lads.
At least you didn't say 'we' this time.

Trust but verify is fair. If you're not in a position to verify then it's likely that your trust matters very little, so why not engage in salacious attacks on character for the bants? Nothing is sacrosanct, and elevating a particular concerns above others will simply make them targets of ire which won't be seriously considered within your earshot.
>> No. 34722 Anonymous
20th July 2021
Tuesday 7:26 am
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>>34704

Hopefully soon they'll invent the anti-wank shock collars from my Zootopia erotic fanfics, to control men like the filthy predatory beasts they are. It's the only way of saving society from those brutes. Big, strong, aggressive, predatory monsters. Mmmfff, yes, that's it... Utter beasts who can't be controlled, fuelled by pure primal sexual instinct and lust. Oh, God, yes. Animals.

It can't just be me who sees this inherently fetishised psycho-pathology behind all this bollocks right?
>> No. 34729 Anonymous
20th July 2021
Tuesday 2:55 pm
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>>34722
I'm incredibly uncomfortable talking about this but if you catch something in the corner of your eye then you might glance before mentally slapping yourself. I can see how a woman might get the wrong idea.

Not saying any of this is right, I'm just saying.
>> No. 34741 Anonymous
20th July 2021
Tuesday 7:23 pm
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>>34729
>I'm incredibly uncomfortable talking about this but if you catch something in the corner of your eye then you might glance before mentally slapping yourself.
Why would you mentally slap yourself for glancing at some assets?
>> No. 34742 Anonymous
20th July 2021
Tuesday 7:49 pm
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Firstly, that man should have been shot in the face on the street for everyone to see. Keep his phone on so his cunt friends hear too. Secondly, I really wonder about whoever took that rabbit photograph, were they thinking "sexy rabbit photo" at the time or was it unintended? We may never know (until Vice does an article on it in eight years time).
>> No. 34743 Anonymous
20th July 2021
Tuesday 8:28 pm
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>>34742
The oldest version of it that tineye can find is on lachshon.de, a defunct content agg.
>> No. 34754 Anonymous
21st July 2021
Wednesday 6:29 am
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>Public street harassment is likely to be criminalised under plans being drawn up by the government as part of its long-awaited strategy to tackle violence against women and girls (VAWG) for England and Wales.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/20/public-street-harassment-to-be-made-in-england-and-wales
>> No. 34755 Anonymous
21st July 2021
Wednesday 9:11 am
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>>34754
>Patel said she was “determined to give the police the powers they need to crack down on perpetrators and carry out their duties to protect the public whilst providing victims with the care and support they deserve”.

Well done Priti, now when I speak out against your repeated efforts to increase police powers, I'll be labelled a sexist. n1 m8
>> No. 34756 Anonymous
21st July 2021
Wednesday 9:45 am
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>>34755

They already pulled that one on Labour for some stuff that supposedly protects women in the policing bill.
>> No. 34757 Anonymous
21st July 2021
Wednesday 10:08 am
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>>34754

Pretty consistently, about three quarters of homicides in England and Wales are committed against males.

We are being played like a fiddle.
>> No. 34768 Anonymous
21st July 2021
Wednesday 10:44 pm
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I don't know why it's never occurred to me that they only cynically push this shit as an excuse for the ever creeping tendrils of authoritarianism, but it makes sense. I actually thought the government was full of cloud cuckoo land fisherfolk who think making a law will stop wolf-whistling.
>> No. 34771 Anonymous
21st July 2021
Wednesday 10:56 pm
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>>34768
It's not exactly "creeping" at this point.
>> No. 35433 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 4:10 pm
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Wayne Couzens used his warrant card and handcuffs to ensnare Sarah Everard under the pretence she had breached Covid rules before killing her with his police belt, a court has heard.

The then Metropolitan police officer burned her body to try to hide his crimes, including kidnap, rape and murder, and as she lay dead in Kent countryside he went to a shop to buy drink and a Bakewell tart.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/wayne-couzens-used-police-id-to-kidnap-sarah-everard-court-told
>> No. 35434 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 4:29 pm
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>>35433

Didn't Starmer tell the Labour MPs to abstain on the bill that'll make it so undercover police can't be prosecuted for rape?
>> No. 35435 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 4:39 pm
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>>35433
>he went to a shop to buy drink and a Bakewell tart.

Do we have any news on what kind of Bakewell tart he purchased? I bet the sick fuck had icing.

>>35434
Isn't this the opposite of undercover?
>> No. 35436 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 6:40 pm
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>>35435

A Bakewell one, I heard.
>> No. 35437 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 6:46 pm
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>>35435
I doubt we're going to reach Jo Yeates' pizza levels of speculation over a bakewell tart.
>> No. 35438 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 7:03 pm
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Given the well-known tradition that only posh white ladies get on the news when they disappear or are murdered, I dread to think how grisly the death of that murdered Asian woman must have been. She got a good week in the news, and I guess that's nice if "missing white woman syndrome" has been defeated, but I don't think it has. They must be just cremating the mop they cleaned her up with at this rate. It must have been horrific.
>> No. 35439 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 7:24 pm
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>>35438
She was killed by an Eastern European immigrant, which makes it twice as sordid.
>> No. 35440 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 8:17 pm
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>>35439

Nevermind that, does he have a HGV licence?
>> No. 35441 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 9:02 pm
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>>35435
I'm reminded of that Monkey Dust sketch, the culmination of the murdered stepdaughter arc. "Chilling eyewitness accounts describe Gary Nuttall as sauntering down the street, and purchasing an ice cream, chillingly adorned with a chocolate flake, at which point his chilling smile was on full display" sort of thing.

>>35438
I was particularly focused on this case for some reason, possibly because a friend of a friend was apparently involved in the case from the police side. The news dropped off very quickly. Sure, it was everywhere, but it all dried very quickly. Possibly because nothing was happening, but that's never stopped the news before.

Someone also mentioned this was right before the budget, which may be a cynical factor but a factor after all.

I don't disagree as it's pretty well catalogued, I'm just not sure that what you mentioned is an example.
>> No. 35442 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 9:32 pm
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>>35441
>possibly because a friend of a friend was apparently involved in the case from the police side
That policewoman who tased that footballer to death went to my boss's wedding.

And Missing White Woman Syndrome is real enough that it has its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
...which made me all the more impressed that a non-white woman's death got the coverage it did. Of course, now that the news has other stories to report, they can focus on them instead. That's all the news really cares about; one of the BBC website's top news stories today was some transparent plug for the new James Bond film. "Breaking news! New James Bond film described as 'magnificent' by critics!" Great; that's enough journalism for one day. You can all go to the bloody pub now.
>> No. 35443 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 10:19 pm
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>>35442
>And Missing White Woman Syndrome is real enough that it has its own Wikipedia page

See >>35441:
>I don't disagree as it's pretty well catalogued, I'm just not sure that what you mentioned is an example.
It's not a good example, do you disagree because there's an acknowledged phenomenon or because you think this in particular was a case of white women syndrome?

I'm not a fan of the insinuation that >>35438 is making because it's based on flawed reasoning, so backing it up by saying 'this phenomenon exists' seems fallacious and raises my hackles a bit, as it would any true scotsman.

It's really not important, I'm just an angry pedant and resentful that my incisive commentary on the very immediate cliff off which Sarah's press presence fell was not appreciated.
>> No. 35444 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 10:23 pm
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>>35442

By contrast, I remember reading about a study in the U.S. that non-white men are overrepresented in local news crime reports in the U.S., and very crucially even when you adjust for factors like population percentage and overall crime rates between white and non-white men. Simply put, while it may even be that non-whites in some areas commit more street crime than whites, it does not account for the disproportionate amount of news coverage they get.
>> No. 35445 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 10:34 pm
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>>35444
I'd be hesitant to draw inferences from US stats. While UK and US culture si related, it's very dangerous to compare outcomes 1:1.
>> No. 35446 Anonymous
29th September 2021
Wednesday 11:43 pm
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I'm still utterly horrified by Sarah's case; some of the details today have been just terrible. I can't say I usually give that much of a fuck about these things normally, but the fact he was a copper and the way it was done just seems so awful.
>> No. 35447 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 12:44 am
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>>35443
>resentful that my incisive commentary on the very immediate cliff off which Sarah's press presence fell was not appreciated.
I thought you meant Sabina thingy's press presence vanished rapidly. I'm sorry. I guess these things often go unnoticed; there was a song I hated that was played 15 times a day on the radio a few months ago, and one day it was never played again. I pointed this out to the people I work with who can hear the same radio, and none of them thought it was remotely odd. If this story isn't relatable to your experience, then I'm sorry again.
>> No. 35448 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 7:25 am
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>>35444
>Simply put, while it may even be that non-whites in some areas commit more street crime than whites, it does not account for the disproportionate amount of news coverage they get.

I guess I am kind of prejudiced but most of the time when there's a national news story about stabbings, particularly if it's somewhere like London, I automatically assume "I bet black lads were involved in this". That assumption tends to be correct the overwhelming majority of the time. I guess stereotypes exist for a reason, but I don't know if the press feed this prejudice as well.
>> No. 35449 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 9:44 am
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>>35448
>> No. 35450 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 10:44 am
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>>35446
I think one of the worst details for me is that people witnessed him kidnap her, but because he was a police officer they assumed it was just a standard arrest.
>> No. 35451 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 10:52 am
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>>35446
The thing I find most chilling is that there must have been a point in the journey where she realised she wasn't being taken to a police station, and would have been in the car for hours knowing she was probably going to meet a grisly fate. Can't imagine what was going on in her head.
>> No. 35452 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 12:23 pm
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>>35450

Perfect crime, innit. You can pretty much drag somebody away kicking and screaming, and nobody will doubt it's a police matter.

Which should make sentencing for this kind of thing even harsher.
>> No. 35453 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 1:16 pm
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>>35452
He's got a whole of life tariff. The judge's sentencing remarks break down exactly why.

https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/wayne-couzens-sentencing-remarks/
>> No. 35454 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 3:04 pm
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>>35453
The lengths he's gone to make me think this isn't his first time.
>> No. 35455 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 3:21 pm
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>>35454
I thought exactly the same - I guess being a policeperson, he had a slightly better than average chance of knowing what they would look for evidentially, but it still seems remarkably well planned. The photograph from the bus-cam that shows him arresting her is haunting. I guess from that point they would have used mobile phone records, to see who was in the area at that time - that or the rental car.

Would loved to have been a fly on the wall at the moment they realised it was one of their own - the arrest bodycam video, as they were first talking to him was also absolutely fascinating - you can tell they know he is their man.
>> No. 35456 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 3:56 pm
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>>35454>>35455
Oh, take of the tin foil cock cage, or whatever it is that's provoking you to think that. I've seen this opinion on rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk as well and I think it's needless and kind of a bit...weird. Like people want to mythologise him or something.

He was flashing in public a couple of weeks before, he completely fucking bungled the operation, he dumped the body 150 metres from his property, freshly brought bags to dispose of things, broke her sim card in the car leaving evidence, if he has a type then his type is highly prolific and complete media bait, and he just doesn't seem very intelligent.

It just seems like the sort of thing middle aged women do in the office. No, we don't need this baseless speculation, there's no point and frankly no reason considering the facts of what happened.
>> No. 35457 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 4:10 pm
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>>35456
The experts suggest he could have done it.

Is hating on Reddiተ the new hating on 4chan? This place loves to be contrarian at times.
>> No. 35458 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 4:19 pm
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>>35457
Which experts? The ones imagined by the DM to get clicks from stoking drama? Do any of them have names? Are they just getting one of the journos who happens to have a degree in criminology to chip in?

>Is hating on Reddiተ the new hating on 4chan?
I'm not really sure what you mean. rudgwicksteamshow.co.ukch is a million times the size of here, and has a different culture. Those two factors alone mean that acknowledging aspects of that culture would only constitutes 'hating' if we're pretending those two factors aren't fact. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone 'hating on' 4chan here. The other place is for many of us how we found britchan. Unless you're suggesting it's above criticism, in which case combined with what I'm assuming to be a DM screenshot, I've clearly been trolled to tears.

>This place loves to be contrarian at times.
Oh, shit, I have.
>> No. 35459 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 4:27 pm
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>>35458
There is definitely an elitism some posters here have over 4chan. It wasn't originally the case, but if you looked in the archive at threads from ~10 years ago a lot of posters would get banned if they behaved like that these days because some have got hypersensitive to that sort of thing over time.
>> No. 35460 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 4:33 pm
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>>35459

I'd say .gs has improved. There's other places to go for typical imageboard shitposting, but I like the tone here.
>> No. 35461 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 5:18 pm
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>>35457
Every forum I have spent considerable time on (the Cracked.com forums back when they existed, 4chan, one other which I won't mention, and now here as well) have all been very different in a lot of ways, but all have hated the misspelt Riddet. It's big enough that everyone's bogeyman posts there. It is simultaneously full of SJW libcucks and evil racist misogynist homophobes. Places that would go to war over everything else can agree on one thing and one thing only, and that's that rudgwicksteamshow.co.uk is shit.
>> No. 35462 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 5:28 pm
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>>35460
Sometimes I worry that we've lost our sense of fun.
>> No. 35463 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 6:19 pm
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>>35462
A vital part of fun is knowing your posts are better than other people's. The better the community, the less you enjoy being cleverer than everyone else. That's why I post here; to make it more fun for the rest of you.
>> No. 35464 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 7:26 pm
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>>35463

I demand a refund.
>> No. 35465 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 8:21 pm
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That's quite the nickname.
>> No. 35466 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 8:47 pm
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>>35465
Therapist?
>> No. 35467 Anonymous
30th September 2021
Thursday 11:06 pm
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>>35466
>> No. 35468 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 10:08 am
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I always find the "women shouldn't be taught to take precautions, men should be taught not to rape!" message that inevitably gets trotted out when something like this happens to be incredibly trite.
>> No. 35469 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:14 pm
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>>35468
All these discussions are always inane. "I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm intelligent enough to know that raping people is bad!" Holy shit! When you put it like that, everything becomes so clear! Someone get this person a Nobel Prize.

But the alternative, of course, is for people to not discuss these stories, and that's even more awful.
>> No. 35470 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:19 pm
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>>35468
I heard reports that in a nightclub in my city they no longer spike drinks, but rather sneakily inject their victims with sedatives. And by reports I mean my girlfriend read it on Facebook. I don't quite believe it, I would definitely feel something being injected into me, but then again I've never been to a nightclub so maybe it's normal to feel like someone is injecting drugs into your hand at the bar.
>> No. 35471 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:24 pm
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>>35470
One of my friends claimed that her drink was spiked the other week. The reality is that she'd drunk too much but wanted to save face in front of her new boyfriend.
>> No. 35472 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:27 pm
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>>35468

I find that the issue is that it's always adversarial. It's always people regressing to this classroom mindset that girls have cooties and boys are smelly.

It's not a binary, both of them are correct. If you want to build a society with a justice system based purely on asking people nicely not to do bad things, be my guest, but you're going to find out very quickly why that's a daft idea. Meanwhile you can still have all your anti-rape campaigns and awareness raising, you know, like we already do. We have quite a bit of that. I don't understand the implication that we're somehow not doing that, because we are.

The attitude presented in your picture just comes off as one of this childish mindset that if you sulk and stomp your feet enough somebody else will fix everything for you, and despite being a big dirty commie, I have never had any time for that kind of attitude from any direction of the political compass.
>> No. 35473 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:36 pm
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I imagine the extremely patronising "hey, men, don't rape women!" hot take is so odiously offensive in precisely the same way that telling women to just not get raped is. I hate the tone of the messages I hear, but women seem to hate the tone of what they're told as well. The real answer is to treat rape like other crimes and just lock people up and let dogs eat them. But then you'd need to prove the crime and have witnesses, and this is where that plan falls apart.
>> No. 35474 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:43 pm
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>>35468

For the record, the keys between your fingers thing is a terrible idea - you'll do more damage to your own hand than the other person's face.
>> No. 35475 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 1:50 pm
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>>35474
This purportedly "useless object" key might help.
>> No. 35476 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 2:00 pm
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>>35473

It's not just patronising. It's another means of demonising and criticising all male sexuality based on the actions of a few. It's the same old blind spot - some of us rightly recognise the absurdity of those kinds of generalisations when we try to apply them to race, but then seem entirely complicit in the lazy categorisations of every man as a potential rapist (and by extension, every woman a potential rape victim).

I understand the desire to rightly place the responsibility of a crime on the person committing it, but that requires looking a bit deeper into how most rapes actually and thinking seriously about interventions that would effectively stop that.

I'm starting to believe the lad who kept accusing everyone of having "id-pol brainworms" was right.
>> No. 35477 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 2:21 pm
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>>35476

>I'm starting to believe the lad who kept accusing everyone of having "id-pol brainworms" was right.

I was, and still am.

Furthermore, gender war idpol is the most prime and fundamental form of idpol, which is why it is so virulent and pervasive. You can't subdivide humans into any group more broad than men and women. That's the top level of idpol that every other type branches of from. When you accuse one half of that divide of something, it's pretty hard to disprove, because you're talking about a full 50% of the human population. So of course you're going to have plenty of examples of members of that gender doing exactly the thing you say they do.

I liked the furry bestiality example somebody posted a bit ago. There are probably more dog-fuckers in a square mile of rural Alabama than the entire furry fandom, but the observational bias of accusing that specific group makes it easy to present it as somehow exclusive and inherent to them. Statistically I bet it would be more justified for furries to go around saying "Hey humans, why do you rape dogs all the time?"

Idpol. It is a contagion.
>> No. 35478 Anonymous
1st October 2021
Friday 11:43 pm
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>>35468
I would love to walk in the middle of Croydon at 12am and not get stabbed and mugged.
#TeachHumansNot2Stab
>> No. 35479 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 12:42 pm
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Blaming men? I'm all about that bus driver rhetoric.
>> No. 35480 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 1:04 pm
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Apparently they're going to take flashing more seriously on the grounds that it's "a huge red flag", a description I suspect some flashers will be flattered by.
>> No. 35481 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 1:21 pm
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>>35480
Are they going to distinguish between streaking and flashing? There's surely quite a lot of people who are just getting their knackers out for the banter, rather than the psychosadism.
>> No. 35482 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 2:48 pm
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>>35481
I assume yes, on their discretion.
>> No. 35483 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 2:52 pm
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>>35476
The vast majority of rapes are committed by men and it's not a question that it's driven by sex differences.

I'm not saying women can't be rapists or that our responses aren't' clearly designed by committees of women and shysters but if you're not going to look at all the data because it upsets you then you're not going to find a solution either.

>>35480
>>35481
I very much do not look forward to seeing how today's moral panic will now put women on the register for getting their tits out. And the end of the road for all this in having our entire lives put into a risk register because we can't accept that a free life contains danger. Followed by us all being put into solitary when that fails.
>> No. 35485 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 3:47 pm
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>>35483
Rape is exclusively committed by penis people.
>> No. 35486 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 4:22 pm
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>>35483
>today's moral panic will now put women on the register for getting their tits out.

That's still too much wokeness for society. Some people might demand such laws, but I doubt they will be enforced. There was a news story all over the BBC website yesterday about a case in Spain where women who pissed in the street and found out they had been secretly filmed, found out they didn't have a case because it was a public street.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58747084

I'm much more interested in this story than any of ours, because I strongly suspect I've probably seen the videos they're talking about, because that's what I'm into. They usually have the word "Galician" in the title, and they are indeed rapidly vanishing from pornography sites, but not as rapidly as you'd expect if anyone actually cared that these videos were not consensually filmed.
>> No. 35487 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 11:42 pm
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>>35485
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "rape".
>> No. 35488 Anonymous
2nd October 2021
Saturday 11:42 pm
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>>35487
I suppose that depends on what you mean by "penis".
>> No. 35489 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 12:16 am
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>>35487

I don't know it has been updated in recent years, but in UK law the definition of rape is non-consensual penetration with a penis. I think the wording even uses "he".

Non penis people still can get charged with equivalent sexual assault, but if you don't have a knob you literally cannot be a rapist in this country.
>> No. 35490 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 12:20 am
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>>35487
>>35489
Otherlad is right though, you could get penetrated by a big fat girlcock. I saw some demonstrations on the internet that could be shared in a court of law.
>> No. 35491 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 12:30 am
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>>35489
>I think the wording even uses "he".
Yes, but it doesn't mean what you think it does. SOA 2003 was written before laws were drafted in gender-neutral language.
>> No. 35492 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 2:02 am
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>>35489
For most ordinary people, the word "rape" implies both the offence of rape, that of penetration of specific holes with a penis, and the offence of assault by penetration, that of penetration of more or less any orifice with any part or object.
>> No. 35493 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 6:44 am
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>>35492

Yes I do know that. Doesn't change the law though.
>> No. 35494 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 1:48 pm
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I am not someone who believes in the inherent toxicity of the male of the species. And I don't agree with Harriet Harman when she says that misogyny should be reclassified as a hate crime for the simple reason that, aside perhaps from encouraging the odd scaffolder to moderate his language, I very much doubt it would deter the real women-haters. But when you look beyond Sarah's case, to the testimonies of young women and girls on platforms such as Everyone's Invited (which saw a wave of confessions following Sarah's death) you realise that something has gone very badly wrong in the way many some men see women.

When you read these accounts, there is little doubt what the common denominator is: misogyny. It is, I'm afraid, real. The question is, where does it come from. Ultimately, of course, all kinds of places. But in a civilised society such as Britain there is only one place that legitimises misogyny and, in so doing, converts thoughts into action: online porn. A world in which the sick scenarios such as the one carried out by Couzens are by no means unusual, and where the abuse of women during sex is commonplace.

A world where violence against women is not only normal, but where the desire to explore and indulge those urges is normalised. A place where a pervert like Couzens can not only feel at home, but be part of an online community of like-minded individuals. And, of course, a place that is easily accessed via any number of electronic devices, free to view and totally unencumbered by any sort of censorship or law.

Couzens, who was an avid consumer of online porn, was the person who ultimately extinguished Sarah's life. But the evil that emboldened him, that legitimised his actions in his twisted mind and that, in a thousand other ways, encourages a whole generation of men (and children: only recently the Children's Commissioner Rachel D'Souza warned that online porn was 'normalising' sexual assault in schools) to treat women as objects on which to vent their frustrations, play out their fantasies or blame their inadequacies, that's online porn. We as women can protest all we like. But until that changes, until someone has the strength and the courage to put a lid on that sewer, filth like Couzens will always crawl their way out to pollute our streets. And no girl, no woman will ever truly be safe.

The joint committee of the Commons and Lords, chaired by the MP Damian Collins, is due to report on the revised Online Safety Bill at the end of December. As it stands, there is no recommendation for a paywall, or any kind of barrier to entry. Which means the culture that contributed to the death of Sarah will continue to embed in our young people as it has been doing for over a decade. The Government has a chance to change that. It should do so. In memory of Sarah. In memory of so many victims.


https://www.Please don't ban me.co.uk/debate/article-10052899/SARAH-VINE-memory-Sarah-Everard-safety-Boris-Johnson-lid-online-porn.html
>> No. 35495 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 2:22 pm
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>>35494
What causes people like this to exist, they've seemingly always been around to blame this or that on porn or computer games and music. They also invariably harm society or at a minimum lead to some absurdly implemented law that fails from the starting gate.

Is it just that Sarah Vine has overestimated how much dick she would be getting in her newly single life?
>> No. 35496 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 2:44 pm
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>>35495

Easy answers are always appealing, especially when your job is to have an appealing opinion on whatever is in the news this week.
>> No. 35497 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 2:57 pm
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>>35494

>A world where violence against women is not only normal, but where the desire to explore and indulge those urges is normalised.

That statement is a bit much though. If you ask most men, and I'll hazard a guess that "most men" would be comfortably more than 95 percent, they will tell you that violence against women isn't normal to them and that they reject the idea that there is nothing wrong with it.


>Couzens, who was an avid consumer of online porn

This paragraph is again jumping to conclusions, and it's an argument that doesn't help anybody. It's a tired-out fallacy to say because the majority of sex offenders were pornography consumers, that must mean that pornography itself is bad and led them to commit their offences. On the contrary, probably a good 99 percent of porn consumers, online or otherwise, will probably never in their life be violent towards women. So it's about as good an argument as saying that because nearly all domestic violence is concomitant with alcohol abuse, nobody should be allowed to quietly enjoy a glass of wine.

It seems more that certain pressure groups who have always been against pornography now want to seize this momet to push their agenda.
>> No. 35498 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 3:14 pm
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>>35497

>Couzens, who was an avid consumer of online porn

Couzens, who owned several biros....
Couzens, who regularly wore shoes...
Couzens, who had a crippling addiction to oxygen...

When the overwhelming majority of men do something, it's utterly silly to correlate it to anything.
>> No. 35499 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 3:32 pm
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>>35495
People like to shoehorn their pet hate into whatever is the main talking point of the day. I lost count of the amount of things that were supposedly going to change due to somehow being responsible for Grenfell. My favourite was one I read in The Mail about 20 years ago which blamed the rise of knife crime on Tesco opening up in their town and putting the small shops out of business.
>> No. 35500 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 9:30 pm
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>A serving Metropolitan police officer in the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command has been charged with rape.
>46-year old PC David Carrick from Hertfordshire is to due to appear at Hatfield Magistrates Court via video link tomorrow.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/metropolitan-police-officer-charged-with-rape-b958579.html
Noteworthy that Couzens was also in the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command. Is that a particularly large branch of the Met or is this getting into statistical improbability?
>> No. 35503 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 10:10 pm
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>>35500
It's probably about as big as you'd expect it to be, and as toxic as you'd expect it to be.
>> No. 35505 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 10:41 pm
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>>35503

You're the shittest cold reader I've ever come across.
>> No. 35506 Anonymous
3rd October 2021
Sunday 10:51 pm
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>>35505
Hardly my fault if your expectations are off.
>> No. 35507 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 3:11 am
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>>35500

It's a relatively large department, as it's responsible for providing 24/7 protection for the entire Parliamentary estate and 195 embassies, consulates and high commissions.

I don't think that the timing is a coincidence - the Met will be taking a fine toothed comb to PaDP right now, because they'd rather get any further embarrassment out of the way ASAP.
>> No. 35508 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 8:28 am
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>>35507
I don't really believe the second part as their public announcements don't sound those of people who think that way (not taking responsibility, just reacting defensively) but that does seem reasonably large.
>> No. 35510 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 1:52 pm
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>>35494

>When you read these accounts, there is little doubt what the common denominator is: misogyny. It is, I'm afraid, real. The question is, where does it come from.

The thing is they might not be wrong about this. The trouble is they really don't want to hear the truthful answer to that question.
>> No. 35512 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 3:13 pm
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>>35510

Is the answer "nagging"? I feel like you're going to say it is.
>> No. 35513 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 3:21 pm
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>>35512

No.
>> No. 35514 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 3:39 pm
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>>35510>>35512>>35513
Can you stop flirting and have a straight conversation? What are they talking about? If it's not nagging, what is it? I don't come here to watch this coquettish carpet-baggerry, stop it.

>>35494 is one of those articles where you read the first couple of plausible paragraphs and then get completely blindsided by a bizarre leap in logic. The author basically says at the end "Until we stop online porn, this will happen again". That's fucking mental.

As for misogyny, my two pence is that many men feel disenfranchised and isolated and are jealous of the attention women get, to the extent they can't distinguish positive and negative attention. Another problem is that what constitutes 'misogyny', much like any other form of bigotry, has gone from people thinking "They are not human and are scum" to having called someone a cunt once. You can't really treat a problem when you keep expanding what that problem is, and making that problem bigger by necessity.
>> No. 35515 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 3:52 pm
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>>35510
What is the truthful answer?
>> No. 35516 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 4:03 pm
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>>35514
>As for misogyny, my two pence is that many men feel disenfranchised and isolated and are jealous of the attention women get, to the extent they can't distinguish positive and negative attention.

I think it goes far deeper than just jealousy. After all, there's plenty of genuine, measurable, systemic double standards to point at. This thread is a fair example.

I understand how distasteful it is to point this out at a time of a very highly publicised murder of a woman, especially one involving a grotesque abuse of power and a position of public trust, but the unacknowledged fact remains that more men are regularly murdered in this country. I have not been able to find a year on record when this has not been true, and it will probably stay that way for a very long time.

It's a horrible thing that happened, but the choice to portray this in such stark gendered terms strikes me as a deliberate one, a divide-and-rule tactic dressed up in progressive language. I also feel like I'm falling into the trap by also discussing it in gendered terms, if I'm honest, because I think we should really be looking at data if we want to draw broader conclusions about society. I'm not saying we can't learn anything from an individual event, but there are important limits to a case study, no matter how tragic or upsetting.
>> No. 35517 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 4:45 pm
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>>35516

When men do loads of crime, it's because men are bastards. When men win loads of Nobel prizes, it's because men are bastards. If you accept the notion of a patriarchy, you don't have to come up with any solutions for anything - men just need to dismantle the patriarchy and anything bad that happens is just evidence that they haven't dismantled it.

The real frustration for me in this case is that there are some really glaring problems with the criminal justice system at the moment that boil down purely to money and could easily be fixed. Boris Johnson says he'll "stop at nothing to jail more rapists", but obviously that doesn't include reversing a decade of cuts to the CPS, the Courts Service and the police that have left charge rates and conviction rates at record lows, with many plaintiffs and defendants waiting years for their day in court. Even if we could convict more rapists through sheer force of will, the prison estate is so overcrowded that we'd have nowhere to put them all.
>> No. 35518 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 4:58 pm
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>>35517

Your post has made me realise how much I'm craving a consistent materialist analysis of current events (in the sense of the distribution of money and resources). News media completely fails to deliver this.
>> No. 35519 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 5:04 pm
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When will it be suggested that parents ought not to leave their children alone with a single nurse?
>> No. 35520 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 5:24 pm
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>>35519
Probably depends how that, alleged, baby killer gets on.
>> No. 35521 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 5:29 pm
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>>35517

There was a bit on the radio earlier about what women should do to feel safe if they are ever in the presence of a lone male officer. Of course I feel sympathy for a woman who would feel intimidated in front of a copper like that, but I'll tell you one thing. I'd rather be a woman than a black man in that situation. Or even a white man from a certain background.

Nine of this excuses the real instances of misogyny in the world, but it's absolutely irrelevant if it does or not. It's absolutely irrelevant if you feel sympathy for the chronics or the sissifys, or if you think their grievances with society are valid. The fact is they exist, and something created them. They didn't just pop out of thin air (or the inherent evil of the Y chromosome, for that matter), something made them the way they are. That's the part we have to honestly grapple with.

I find it difficult not to see parallels in something like Brexit. People were giving warnings for years that at some point, we would need to engage with those festering feelings of resentment, and not just brush them aside; but it wasn't until 2016 and the massive act of national, economic self harm that anyone woke up and started to take notice.
>> No. 35522 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 5:51 pm
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>>35521

I see what you're saying, but how much of this is also misdirection by people in power? Brexit could be seen as a massive political own goal, but it did successfully divert a lot of legitimate anger into non-issues.
>> No. 35523 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 5:54 pm
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>>35521

>I'd rather be a woman than a black man in that situation. Or even a white man from a certain background.

I don't think being any one of these is better than the other in this context, coppers are hateful psychopaths, it's just the luck of the draw which chip on the shoulder they have when you encounter one.
>> No. 35524 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 7:21 pm
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>The Conservatives say they are "working with the police" after an energy boss attending their party conference said she was "violently assaulted" by a man. Clementine Cowton, director of external affairs at Octopus Energy Group, told a fringe event the incident happened in the bar of The Midland hotel in Manchester.

>The party member involved has been suspended and had his pass revoked. The Conservatives say the behaviour is "completely unacceptable". According to a report in The Times newspaper, Ms Cowton was in the hotel bar - one of the main destinations at the autumn political gathering - when a drunk man in his 30s, sat in a seat vacated by her friend. She said he made her so uncomfortable that she asked him "several times politely to leave" and when he refused to do so, she took his phone and dropped it on the floor. "He went to retrieve it and then he came back and attacked me," Ms Cowton told the paper.

>According to the report, Ms Cowton said the man tried to punch her but was stopped by others in the bar, with the resulting scuffle ending up with her glass being smashed. "He was very intoxicated and I felt a bit unsafe around him", she added. And in a video posted on the ConservativeHome website, Ms Cowton told the guests in the audience she was "sorry to dump this on everyone, it's a bit of a surprise". But she said she wanted to take the opportunity to highlight how "women are often unsafe in places where other people feel safe". And she said it was "really important that we start to take that much more seriously as a society and starting with the police. I'm fine by the way, don't worry."

>A Conservative spokeswoman said the man's party membership has been suspended. "This behaviour is completely unacceptable and the party has revoked the pass of the individual concerned and is working with the police", she added.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58791455

Women can't even feel at ease in a Conservative party conference anymore. Broken Britain.

>>35516
>It's a horrible thing that happened, but the choice to portray this in such stark gendered terms strikes me as a deliberate one, a divide-and-rule tactic dressed up in progressive language.

Don't be so conspiratorial, lad. Society is open about the fact that a woman's wellbeing is worth much more than a man's. We even celebrate and encourage such sexual dynamics that reflects across society from different sentencing for crimes to how Boko Haram could burn schoolboys alive multiple times but when they kidnapped girls it was a global tragedy.

>>35521
>>35523
I've literally never had a problem with a copper and I think most people have the same aside from the odd traffic offense. I know you two have a chip on your shoulder about the police but by and large I'd trust them over the general public and we'd all still call them if we were the victims of a serious crime.

Women and darkies should too but obviously they've been conditioned by the news to think differently.
>> No. 35525 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 7:27 pm
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>>35524
Why can't I read this without thinking how it might be staged?

Also, she's a bit of alright.
>> No. 35526 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 7:33 pm
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>>35524
>Ms Cowton was in the hotel bar - one of the main destinations at the autumn political gathering - when a drunk man in his 30s, sat in a seat vacated by her friend. She said he made her so uncomfortable that she asked him "several times politely to leave" and when he refused to do so, she took his phone and dropped it on the floor. "He went to retrieve it and then he came back and attacked me," Ms Cowton told the paper.

I'd bet you a sneakster reveal that she thought "I'm not going to give in and move, I'm going to stand my ground" or some variation of that, and that the gender of her harasser had a role in her thought process.

It doesn't matter if you have right of way, you can still get run over. Any reasonable person would just move to another seat, instead of 'dropping his phone' and escalating the situation. Yes, people shouldn't be drunk knobs but you just get out of their way until they cause some actual trouble. If he starts following her, that's a good example, also makes it very obvious. But if you have to ask someone several times to leave a seat next to you *at a bar*, you're being stubborn and pretty much choosing to escalate the situation. I've got no sympathy for her.

>>35523
Had a dozen encounters with the cops, all but two were completely positive. Maybe Geordies are different than regular humans. You've not been profiled as a white male until you've been to Morrisons in Byker, it's good craic. I was inches from having my joggers pulled up the check for track marks, all because I carrying my shopping in my hands and looking gormless.
>> No. 35527 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 7:36 pm
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>>35526

>joggers

There's your problem.
>> No. 35528 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 7:54 pm
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>>35525
>>35526
Honestly wouldn't surprise me if the bloke was just having a sit down in a vacant seat and she decided to be a cunt about it.

>I was inches from having my joggers pulled up the check for track marks

Can someone translate this Geordie babbling into English? Why is he saying 'craic' at me, is he a member of the IRA?
>> No. 35529 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 7:58 pm
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>>35527
Yeah, I looked a bit of a radgie. Obviously carrying stuff in your hands is shoplifting. Other time was when a pack of gum fell out my pocket, and the copper walking in front of me towards me stopped me and asked why I'd just thrown something away in front of him. I obviously hadn't intentionally done so. He said he'd let me off as there was one portion of gum remaining.
>> No. 35530 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 8:26 pm
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On Saturday the police were recorded shooting a seemingly unarmed man at point blank range. Two days later and nobody has reported whether or not he had a gun or even alluded to its relevance. Bizarre.
>> No. 35531 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 8:50 pm
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>>35526

>I'd bet you a sneakster reveal that she thought "I'm not going to give in and move, I'm going to stand my ground" or some variation of that, and that the gender of her harasser had a role in her thought process.

Don't discount the fact that she's the director of external affairs at Octopus Energy Group, and thus probably thinks she's the type of person who simply doesn't have to take such impudence from some drunken lout.
>> No. 35532 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 8:57 pm
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>>35516
I have believed since the start that the murder of Sarah Everard has been co-opted by people wishing to politicise it. As soon as she died, people said, "Now I can talk about #metoo again!" That, to me, is the crux of all of this. But I refuse to go so far as to say that's necessarily a bad thing; it's just tiresome.
>> No. 35533 Anonymous
4th October 2021
Monday 10:21 pm
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>>35532

>I refuse to go so far as to say that's necessarily a bad thing

I mean that's kind of the thing isn't it. It's a thing that's worthy of attention, but 90% of the people who get involved in this sort of thing really just want to peel their own spuds, don't they.
>> No. 35733 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 11:31 am
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Research reveals rapes and assaults admitted to by male UK students

The first survey examining sexual violence by male UK students has shone a light on misogyny at universities, with scores admitting to rape, sexual assault and other forcible acts. Of the 554 male students surveyed, 63 reported that they had committed 251 sexual assaults, rapes and other coercive and unwanted incidents in the past two years, according to researchers at the University of Kent.

The study, Understanding Sexual Aggression in UK Male University Students, examined both the psychological profiles of sexually violent male students and their self-reported rates of offending. It identified a strong association between toxic masculinity and sexual violence, with those who reported committing offences also admitting to misogynistic views, such as believing that women who get drunk are to blame if they get raped, and having sadistic sexual fantasies about raping or torturing women. Such views and fantasies were not held by participants who did not report sexual misconduct and violence, the study noted.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/29/research-reveals-rapes-and-assaults-admitted-to-by-male-uk-students
>> No. 35734 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 12:09 pm
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>>35733
So 10% of men are die hard misogynists and have no problem with sexual assault, and the other 90% are liars.
>> No. 35735 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 12:12 pm
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>>3573
Of which 62 were "yeah I slapped her arse in a club", I bet. What a horribly written headline.
>> No. 35736 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 12:20 pm
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>>35735

Is that not sexual assault?
>> No. 35737 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 12:30 pm
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>>35736
Not really
>> No. 35738 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 1:11 pm
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>>35733
Why would you even admit to any of that? What do they achieve by revealing they've done rapes? Weird study.
>> No. 35740 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 3:41 pm
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>>35738
>Didn't matter, had sex

It's interesting to see that they know it's wrong, though. I had always assumed that if most rapists were asked about their rapes and sexual assaults, they would say they had done none because everything they had done "didn't really count".
>> No. 35741 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 3:51 pm
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>>35738
They probably want to get it off your chest. It's not as if you can tell someone in casual conversation that you raped someone because there will be consequences to this. It could also be vanity similar to Ted Bundy.

>>35740
I think that mainly applies to paedos who justify it to themselves by saying the four-year-old they diddled was up for it and enjoyed it.
>> No. 35742 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 3:55 pm
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>>35738
Presumably none of the questions were "Have you ever raped someone?" but things like "Have you ever continued to have sex after being asked to stop by your partner?" or "Have you ever had sex with someone who was inebriated?". Like >>35740 alludes to, they're admitting to things that "didn't really count".
>> No. 35748 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 10:04 pm
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>>35740

I think it's possible to be aware that you're doing/did something that technically counts as a rape/assault under the legal definition and modern consensus about sexual consent; but just not necessarily agree that doing so is ethically wrong.

I'm reminded of one time I went out on a date of sorts with a lass and she flirted heavily with me all afternoon, well into the night, and even offered me to stay with her. We'd already sexted and swapped nudes and all that business. When I got back to hers I ended up in bed with her, and started getting touchy feely, copping off and all that, but she stopped me going any further. At the time it seemed obvious that she was just being coy and "hard to get", and that if I just redoubled my efforts she'd give in. So I was quite persistent.

In the end I didn't end up shagging her, I certainly wasn't going to force the matter; but looking back on it I feel kind of scummy about it and I think she was almost certainly very uncomfortable to be in that situation. By most standards, the rather insistent groping and fingering I did was probably sexual assault of a kind- But all the same, I don't think I can really be called a raper, when up until that point, this girl had gone through every single one of the usual signals that tell you "we're going to fuck".

I just think there will always be pretty wide grey areas around sex. We're not robots, interaction isn't perfect, and courtship is once of the messiest kinds of interaction of all.
>> No. 35749 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 10:14 pm
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>>35748
>she stopped me going any further
>the rather insistent groping and fingering I did was probably sexual assault of a kind- But all the same, I don't think I can really be called a raper, when up until that point, this girl had gone through every single one of the usual signals that tell you "we're going to fuck"
>I just think there will always be pretty wide grey areas around sex

Laaad.
>> No. 35750 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 10:24 pm
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>>35749

I can't roll my eyes hard enough at this response. You've cherrypicked all the worst possible parts out of what was a very frank and earnest post, and added nothing to the conversation.

It is thanks to people like you nobody will ever get anywhere productive trying to have these conversations.
>> No. 35751 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 10:35 pm
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>>35750
I've cherrypicked because I've highlighted the part where she stopped you going any further but you "probably" sexually assaulted her by keeping going when you've said she was very uncomfortable with the situation?

The rest was simply your mental gymnastics to try and downplay what you did. Cut out the waffle and what are you left with? You being a rapist.
>> No. 35752 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 10:38 pm
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>>35751

Shut up, retard.
>> No. 35753 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 10:42 pm
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>>35752
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but at least I understand what consent is.
>> No. 35754 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 11:04 pm
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>>35751

If you didn't stick your dinkle in, you didn't do a rape. Don't argue the toss with me, it's the law.

More constructively, I think there's a problem with the breadth of the term "rape". It's entirely positive that we've taken the issue of consent more seriously and started to examine the nuances of it, but in doing so we've created a kind of sexually neurotic minefield where a misunderstanding can tip over into a crime that could in theory carry a life sentence.

Intuitively, we all recognise that there's a vast difference between someone who drags a woman down an alleyway and someone who has sex with their girlfriend when she's slightly too drunk. The court recognises that difference, but they're both the same offence of rape. Some very angry fisherpersons would insist that they're both indistinguishably awful crimes, which inhibits any kind of open conversation about the topic in the public sphere.

A strict binary between "full enthusiastic consent" and "rape" doesn't do anyone justice. To admit that there's a spectrum of wrongdoing doesn't absolve anyone of guilt, it just recognises the complexity of consent. Men do need to behave better, but if our only strategy is to point the finger then all we do is stigmatise and alienate the men who are trying to do the right thing. We need to teach young men to respect women, but we also need to teach young women to understand their desires and assert themselves with confidence. We've created a generation of young men who aren't sure if they're rapists and young women who aren't sure if they have been raped; if we don't help them to resolve that uncertainty, we're headed towards dystopia.
>> No. 35755 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 11:16 pm
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>>35754
>Intuitively, we all recognise that there's a vast difference between someone who drags a woman down an alleyway and someone who has sex with their girlfriend when she's slightly too drunk. The court recognises that difference, but they're both the same offence of rape.

Granted, but if you go on a date with someone and when you're getting it on later and they stop you that is a black and white no. There is no grey area to this. Trying to coerce someone to do something they don't want to do and are uncomfortable with because you're thinking with your dick and convinced they'll give in isn't uncertainty, it's outright sexual assault.

Honestly, it isn't hard at all not to sexually assault people.
>> No. 35756 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 11:24 pm
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>>35755

>I ended up in bed with her, and started getting touchy feely, copping off and all that, but she stopped me going any further
>In the end I didn't end up shagging her, I certainly wasn't going to force the matter

Without hearing her side of things, it's impossible to say what part of the encounter was consensual and what wasn't. It's impossible for any of us to know the extent to which >>35748 misread the situation or the extent to which the other party expressed their desires. Some fisherpersons might argue that every single part of a sexual encounter should require explicit verbal consent, but nobody actually says "Is it OK if I touch your shoulder, is it OK if I kiss your neck, is it OK if I grab your buttock".

Having sex with someone who doesn't want to is definitely a crime, but that's not what we're talking about here.
>> No. 35757 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 11:44 pm
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>>35756
He said that she stopped him. He said that he thought if he was persistent she'd give in. He said she was almost certainly very uncomfortable with the situation. He said it was a kind of sexual assault but has then downplayed it by saying that, up until the point she stopped him, she clearly wanted it.

I don't see this as misinterpreting the signs at all, more a case of wilfully ignoring the ones that she no longer wanted it for his own benefit.
>> No. 35758 Anonymous
29th October 2021
Friday 11:54 pm
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>>35750
>It is thanks to people like you nobody will ever get anywhere productive trying to have these conversations.
You mean conversations where blokes admit to sexual assault but refuse to acknowledge that it's sexual assault?
>> No. 35759 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 1:20 am
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>>35757
I assume that:
-He tried to slip her the D
-She said no
-He went back to the previous stage, of kissing and fondling
-She did not say no to this

In that case, nothing was done wrong. It's not a crime to ask, and people ask by trying in these situations. That's how you ask. If our fellow poster was told, "No penis", and so he fingered her a bit more and she was obviously trying to stop that as well, then yes, he's in the wrong. But maybe she wanted his soft, effeminate fingers, but not his throbbing rapist cock. There's no reason to deny her the fingers in that situation.
>> No. 35760 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 6:17 am
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>>35759
>In that case, nothing was done wrong. It's not a crime to ask, and people ask by trying in these situations. That's how you ask. If our fellow poster was told, "No penis", and so he fingered her a bit more and she was obviously trying to stop that as well, then yes, he's in the wrong.

He's admitted that it was sexual assault and that she was uncomfortable with the situation. You lads need to stop desperately clutching at straws.
>> No. 35761 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 8:38 am
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This is exactly what I was describing in >>35742
>> No. 35762 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 9:46 am
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>>35761

It's all so tragically predictable. The study found a strong association between those with unhealthy attitudes towards women and those who reported committing sexual assaults within the past 24 months. This website is known to have several posters who have... interesting views on women and we've ended up with one lad admitting he sexually assaulted someone whom then gets pissy if you use his own words against him to point out that he committed sexual assault and his chronic masturbator buddies attempting to trivialise it.
>> No. 35763 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 10:16 am
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>>35762

I'm not writing him off as an evil rapist or chronic masturbator, I think it's a fairly human behaviour, just one to learn to avoid. But it's still something that survey (and maybe the law) would describe as sexual assault.
>> No. 35764 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 11:54 am
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>>35759

This is correct. I haven't added anything to this thread since my initial post by the way. Otherlad is clearly trolling in bad faith rather than engaging with the issues at play, so I'm not going to bother engaging.

Here's the thing that I always come back to whenever I think back to this rather morally ambiguous incident- If it wasn't for the fact it was in a university town an hour's train ride away, I would have got up and left to go home the moment it became clear she didn't want to fuck. I'd have gone home and had a wank. But I was stuck there with her, and she invited me to stay. She invited me into her bed. What exactly was she angling for?

The thing is, she was bloody lucky it was someone like me, who had the decency not to just force myself on her after an all day drinking session and her making every effort under the sun to get me randy. I don't care how much you ascribe to the "victim blaming" rhetoric, but if she didn't want to have sex, the most prudent thing would have been to end the evening by saying she had a lovely time and we would have gone our separate ways. There are plenty of men out there who would not have taken no for an answer under the circumstances. If I was more a suspiciou sort I would say it feels almost as if she was specifically trying to set me up for that.

I will let you all make your own judgements, you are clearly all such pure, upstanding individuals you have never done anything as morally dubious as this. I am simply reflecting honestly about my personal experience in a situation, and how I feel about it.
>> No. 35765 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 12:24 pm
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>>35764
You're right, lad. She's so lucky that you only persistently groped and fingered her despite the fact you could tell she was uneasy with the situation rather than full-on raping her.

It's a good job that you were wise to her trying to set you up with a trap. Clearly no woman is allowed to change her mind during foreplay, that's just asking for it. Jesus wept.
>> No. 35766 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 12:37 pm
35766 spacer
Ahhhhh I'm hungover and you're a cunt.

>>35762
>This website is known to have several posters who have... interesting views on women
Yeah, tends to happen when you get misanthropic spergs congregating. Instead of snidely projecting yourself above them though, you could try engaging with them sincerely and trying to help them rather than taking the piss. Though I suppose the latter is tougher and requires character.

>one lad admitting he sexually assaulted someone whom then gets pissy if you use his own words against him to point out that he committed sexual assault and his chronic masturbator buddies attempting to trivialise it.
Where's this happened? If this site is known for anything, it's the general lack of judgement surrounding admissions of dodginess, which helps people process them while getting feedback from a source that they may actually listen to rather than another source of dismissive judgement and lazy criticism.
>> No. 35767 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 1:31 pm
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>>35765

In fairness, if she makes a habit of such behaviour, it's almost certain she has been fully raped since.

Maybe she was just a bit naive, maybe she suddenly felt unwell after all the booze, we'll never know, and of course she is well within her rights to change her mind at any point. As we have already established her rights were respected in the end.

But I know if I was a woman I wouldn't invite someone home and to bed with me if I didn't want to have sex with them, it's just not a risk I would take. I wouldn't want to have to test how a lad would react to that, I would make sure I never got into the situation, especially if alcohol was involved. If being drunk doesn't absolve rapistlad of guilt, then it doesn't absolve her of self responsibility either.

It's only if you're a soft cunt who lives in a fantasy world you don't accept realistic sensible precautions like that as worthwhile, and you are uncharitable enough to assume a human can and should have perfect sound judgement at all times.
>> No. 35768 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 1:50 pm
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>>35767
>As we have already established her rights were respected in the end.

After the sexual assault that he has admitted to.
>> No. 35769 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:03 pm
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>>35759

>It's not a crime to ask, and people ask by trying in these situations. That's how you ask.

This. The other quite important aspect people tend to deliberately ignore is that, while no means no, why they said no is of vital importance.

In the heat of the moment and in the absence of telekinetic powers, it is easy to mistake whether "no" means "I do not consent to sexual penetration at all and would not like you to continue" or if it means "easy tiger, you haven't spent enough time fondling my nips and nibbling that spot on the nape of my neck just yet". If you'd been flirting with a girl and picking up signals all day (and if you had a history of sexting and such) you would pretty confidently assume the latter.

I can't help but feel anyone who denies that distinction is either being deliberately obtuse or has simply never had real life sex. Sex and intimacy are highly reliant on non-verbal signals, and it would just be fucking weird otherwise. You'd never get laid at all if you did it by the book how these lot say you should.

Otherlad put it right earlier I think, and I've sometimes wondered if this explains the apparent phenomenon of "zoomers" not having sex- We've brought them up in a climate that has left them sexually neurotic.
>> No. 35770 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:21 pm
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>>35769
>I can't help but feel anyone who denies that distinction is either being deliberately obtuse or has simply never had real life sex. Sex and intimacy are highly reliant on non-verbal signals, and it would just be fucking weird otherwise

I take it you missed the part where he said he could tell she was uncomfortable with his persistent fingering but ignored this in the hope she'd relent?
>> No. 35771 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:24 pm
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>>35769
Telekinesis is the ability to move objects with your mind, probably not much use there.
>> No. 35772 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:27 pm
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>>35770

Perhaps it's you who missed the part where he only realised that after the fact, presumably thanks to a mixture of intoxication and lust.

>At the time it seemed obvious that she was just being coy and "hard to get"
>looking back on it I feel kind of scummy about it and I think she was almost certainly very uncomfortable
>> No. 35773 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:41 pm
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>>35772
From the way he's downplayed it and attempted to shift responsibility, I get the impression he knew all along she wasn't into it but chose to ignore it for personal gain. You call it lust, I call it sexual assault. He even called it sexual assault.
>> No. 35774 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:49 pm
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>>35773

Clearly you have some spuds to peel, lad.
>> No. 35775 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 2:58 pm
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It is sexual assault. Like if someone's been trying to start a fight with you all day, constantly harassing you, your adrenaline's flowing, now they're right up in your face yelling. You give them a shove to push them back out of your space, you just assaulted them.
>> No. 35776 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 4:16 pm
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>>35775
Blimey you're a fucking fanny, lad
>> No. 35777 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 4:32 pm
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>>35776
The nuance is lost on you.
>> No. 35778 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 5:18 pm
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>>35775>>35777
What exactly is your point? Forcibly fingering someone is tame compared to rape so even though it's technically sexual assault it's pretty much nothing really?
>> No. 35779 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 5:41 pm
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>>35778

Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.

Your point here essentially just hinges on not believing otherlad is telling the truth and that he knew exactly what he was doing.

I don't see any reason to lie about such things on an anonymous imageboard, when he even acknowledges that he feels guilty about the act and presumably learned a lesson from it. I don't know what exactly your point is, or what you hope to add to the debate, but I think the anecdote does a pretty good job of illustrating that it's not always black and white.

Again, your side of this argument entirely hinges on taking his statement to be in bad faith. That does not preclude the possibility of a similar situation happening completely honestly.

I know you're only trolling, because Graun-reading Twitterati simp-lad is a character that never fails to get a bite around here, but the attitude you are expressing is definitely more harmful than helpful to women, in the bigger picture. This is a huge problem with the discourse around sexual violence.
>> No. 35780 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 6:15 pm
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Weird thing to protest in my opinion. It's not like there's a major push for spiking lasses in club. Maybe a few in the whole city. Feels more perfomative than useful in my eyes.
>> No. 35781 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 6:17 pm
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>>35779
He did know exactly what he was doing. He said as much.

And ultimately no means no. You can argue until the cows go home about what someone meant by "no", but unless you want to be a bit rapey it's perfectly fine to not overthink it and just stick with its literal meaning of "no".
>> No. 35782 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 6:48 pm
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>>35779
>Your point here essentially just hinges on not believing otherlad is telling the truth and that he knew exactly what he was doing.

Because it's such a blatant cop out. As the otherlad says, he knew exactly what he was doing in the hope she'd eventually give in. If he feels so remorseful about it then why is most of what he's posted trying to downplay his actions, shift the blame away from him or getting mad that he's admitted he sexually assaulted her but doesn't like people pointing out that he committed sexual assault? He's clearly wanting people to validate his own worldview and nothing else.

It's not a grey area. If a girl wants sex with you but changes her mind that's a black and white no. Trying to take matters into your own hands, literally, by trying to pressure her into sex by repeatedly fondling her in the hope she'll give in despite the fact her body language says otherwise is clear sexual assault.
>> No. 35783 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 7:34 pm
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>>35781

He literally said he opposite of that though.
>> No. 35784 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 7:58 pm
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>>35783
If you take him at his literal word, maybe. But if you take his actions as described, he clearly knew what he was doing.
>> No. 35785 Anonymous
30th October 2021
Saturday 8:23 pm
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>>35781
That's why they didn't have sex.
>> No. 35786 Anonymous
31st October 2021
Sunday 1:28 am
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>>35782
I get that people want to "have a conversation" about this, but I was reminded recently by someone that we should be careful not to get so deep into the weeds examining the grey areas that we lose sight of and give space to people doing harmful things in the dark.

No means no. Sure, we can have a discussion on the ins and outs of that and the different things that can be expressed that way, but that discussion must start from the simple absolute and evolve from there.
>> No. 36250 Anonymous
6th December 2021
Monday 6:52 pm
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Pestering women in the street to be outlawed

Pestering women in the street or in pubs and making lewd comments at them could become an offence under plans to criminalise “public sexual harassment”, which are set to be announced next week.

A government-commissioned review of hate crimes will call for public sexual harassment and inciting hatred against women to be made criminal offences as part of an overhaul of laws to protect women and girls against violence. But the review by the Law Commission - the body responsible for framing hundreds of the UK’s laws - will reject demands for misogyny to be made a hate crime because it believes it would be ineffective, according to Whitehall sources.

The new offence of public sexual harassment is seen as a more effective way of protecting women against violence than classing misogyny as a hate crime alongside race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or evangelist christian korean youtuber identity, Whitehall sources have said. The Law Commission also decided it could make it harder to prosecute crimes such as domestic abuse and would create two-tier sentencing, depending on whether a sexual offence was shown to be a hate crime.

In the wake of Miss Everard's killing, ministers said they would consider if there should be a new offence of street harassment that would criminalise explicit sexual and abusive behaviour or comments made in public. Draft legislation prepared by campaigners covers behaviour including intentionally pressing against someone on public transport, persistent sexual propositioning or cornering someone, making sexually explicit comments, leering at a person and cat-calling. It makes clear that police and prosecutors would have to show the behaviour would cause “harassment, distress or alarm” with an intent to “humiliate or degrade” an alleged victim.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/03/pestering-women-street-set-outlawed/
>> No. 36251 Anonymous
6th December 2021
Monday 10:19 pm
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>>36250

Threatening or abusive behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress is already illegal under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986.

Am I missing something?
>> No. 36252 Anonymous
6th December 2021
Monday 10:43 pm
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>>36251
Nope. It's a good thing this kind of behaviour is getting explicitly mentioned, but in terms of practical changes the impact is minimal.
>> No. 36253 Anonymous
6th December 2021
Monday 10:54 pm
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>>36250
>inciting hatred against women to be made criminal offence

Imagine making 20k a year and having to arrest blokes for complaining about women down the pub. "Ello ello ello, not all women are such an utter pain in the arse that you consider pursuing a homosexual relationship with your effeminate friend who has now grown his hair out."

Or complaining about the way our society is structured that has alienated young men, however poorly the argument is made and whose fundamental complaint of isolation has been twisted by the only people in the world who seem to give a fuck about them. It's really quite shocking how we brush this issue under the rug like we're not going to end up with a society run by alt-right and Peterson fanatics in a generation.

>cornering someone

How did the mating ritual of Japanese anime people lead to a police officer rape-killing a woman?

>>36251
We have to have special rules for women now because we forgot how liberal humanism works.
>> No. 36254 Anonymous
6th December 2021
Monday 11:21 pm
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>>36253

>It's really quite shocking how we brush this issue under the rug like we're not going to end up with a society run by alt-right and Peterson fanatics in a generation.

You know, the longer it goes on the more I'm starting to think that's part of the plan. The ruling elite has decided allowing the fisherperson and larger civil rights and sexual revolution of the 60s happen was a mistake and we need some good old fashioned social norms bringing back into society.

Of course, that men will have to carry on enduring all the harmful things men endured before feminism, that fisherpersons never did anything about even though they constantly talk about doing things about them, but now they will carry on enduring them after feminism has been defeated too. Thank goodness for that eh.

It's almost like the whole thing was a diversion in the first place to stop us getting carried away making actual structural, material societal changes at a time of great historical turbulence. Of course, we're in much steadier waters in current year, we needn't bother with all those concessions.
>> No. 36613 Anonymous
10th January 2022
Monday 6:47 pm
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>A Metropolitan Police officer accused of a string of sex offences is facing further charges linked to another four victims including six counts of rape, prosecutors said.

>David Carrick, of Hertfordshire, will be charged with nine further offences, the Crown Prosecution Service said. In total he is accused of 29 crimes against eight women from 2009 to 2020.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-59944241

It's just one or two bad apples, lads.
>> No. 36614 Anonymous
11th January 2022
Tuesday 12:14 pm
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>>36613
Rape of civilians is part and parcel of having a police force.
>> No. 37896 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 1:44 pm
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https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/new-london-underground-signs-warning-23236732
>> No. 37897 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 1:47 pm
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>>37896
How many seconds do you get to stare at a maiden's body parts before it becomes intrusive?
>> No. 37898 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 2:14 pm
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>>37896
They have plastered these all over the underground trains these days. It puts a weird spin on those times where you randomly lock eyes with a pretty woman but it's nice to know that Transport police don't have anything better to do these days like dealing with beggars actively harassing commuters or deporting people who leave rubbish on the seats.
>> No. 37899 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 2:15 pm
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I think if you can't get through your day without spooking a woman then you probably should be in prison as a precaution.

>>37897
You should just know.
>> No. 37900 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 2:24 pm
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>>37899

>You should just know.

That's discriminatory against spergs.
>> No. 37901 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 2:33 pm
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>>37896
You'd think they'd sort the rapes out first. I can understand how nasty it must be for a stranger to just gawk at you pervertedly, but if we compare sexism to racism, there wasn't anyone on the planet complaining about #OscarsSoWhite while lynchings were commonplace, because it would sound ridiculous to think that was the priority. I guess if staring at someone gets its own poster, the worse stuff must all be fixed.
>> No. 37902 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 2:50 pm
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>>37901

Wonder how they're going to handle the "exposing" bit. I'm sure some fishperson had blokes in mind who would for whatever reason let their bollocks hang out on public transport, but is that also goingto apply to some unattractive sweaty bint who exposes her droopy cleavage more than she covers it with her skimpy tank top?
>> No. 37903 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 2:54 pm
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>>37899
Yeah, men should go to prison for not crossing the road when walking the same path as a woman at night. Prat.

You can't gauge 'crime' from the perspective of the 'victim', otherwise things would be utter chaos. The solution is for people to work on getting thicker skins and being less worried, which partially comes from avoiding certain internet communities and stopping surrounding themselves with scary stories about what could go wrong. Fed up of people trying to present irrational fears as rational when they're not scared of getting in a car but they are scared of existing in public.
>> No. 37904 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 3:00 pm
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>>37901
>if we compare sexism to racism, there wasn't anyone on the planet complaining about #OscarsSoWhite while lynchings were commonplace, because it would sound ridiculous to think that was the priority.

The only reason that gained any traction whatsoever was because Will Smith's wife had a teary over him not getting nominated for Concussion.
>> No. 37905 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 3:20 pm
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>>37902
I heard some statistic recently about how many women have been the victim of indecent exposure, and it was some insanely high number. I really don't have the inclination to go looking it up, but let's say 70%. That number sounds impossible when you consider that most flashings tend to be one-on-one rather than a bloke flashing 50 women and no men in one go. If men ran down the street with their willies out, I would personally have seen a lot more willies. But, if we consider mooning people to count, then you can absolutely moon hundreds of people and the men wouldn't count it because it's hilarious banter that never stops being funny. But maybe women are afraid of bums as well as bollocks and the bollocks-adjacent locations? Maybe they all think they've been the victim of a sex crime when a hairy bottom passes them on a bus?

And maybe, just maybe, this is why women don't flash me anywhere near as often as I would like.
>> No. 37906 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 3:37 pm
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>>37901
>You'd think they'd sort the rapes out first.
It's a TfL thing, not Metropolitan Police. I don't think there are many rapes happening for them to sort out on the Underground.
>> No. 37907 Anonymous
21st March 2022
Monday 4:04 pm
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>>37905

Not wanting to call into question if women actually get sexually harrassed on a notable scale, which I believe they do very much, but I'm sure some of it is down to suggestive questioning.

For example, in many surveys, sexual harrassment can include being either the subject, or just simply a witness to a crude sexual joke or innuendo. By that definition, it's harrassment if you simply say something funny about your bollocks, however unfunny it really is, while a woman is present who you're making feel uneasy. And that's just a bit overbroad to me. Because it then gets lumped in with all other forms of sexual abuse, which apparently somebody decided long ago don't leave room for scope or nuance. In short, telling a rude joke next to a woman is then suddenly just as morally reprehensible as fondling or raping her.
>> No. 37918 Anonymous
22nd March 2022
Tuesday 9:17 am
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>>37902

How little can you get away with before it's indecent exposure?

You know, like when you see a bird on a night out wearing essentially nowt but her underwear (but you obviously don't look for longer than your statutory 3 seconds, because you're not a rapist), but I expect it'd be treated quite differently if I got on the tube in a banana hammock.

I'm being quite hyperbolic of course, but honestly, I think it would be easier to understand and more effective at this stage if they just stopped stretching the term "harassment" and just made it illegal to make women uncomfortable.
>> No. 37922 Anonymous
22nd March 2022
Tuesday 11:38 am
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>>37918

> but I expect it'd be treated quite differently if I got on the tube in a banana hammock

Technically, as long as your bits aren't showing, you should be in the clear.

That said, not sure where it's codified, but you can be denied service on London transport if you are dressed offensively or not dressed at all.

Then again, there's also this:

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-13/londoners-fail-to-ignore-half-naked-travellers-during-no-trousers-tube-ride
>> No. 39449 Anonymous
3rd October 2022
Monday 8:35 am
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Men under 30 are less accepting of women’s rights

Men under 30 are less accepting of women’s rights than their older counterparts, a new study suggests.

The EU-wide study suggests that while Western democracies have become increasingly gender-equal over the past decades, there is a more recent “backlash against gender equality in the form of rising modern sexism”.

Furthermore, young men are more likely to see women’s progress at their expense and the trend is most prominent in areas with high unemployment and less trust in institutions, according to the findings. Researchers from the Department of Political Science at Sweden’s Gothenburg University, found that young men see themselves as being in competition with women and are therefore more likely to vote in favour of right-wing, anti-fisherperson political candidates.

Gefjon Off, a PhD student, who worked on the research, said: “Some people believe that increased gender equality only benefits women and do not see the benefits for society as a whole. Some research suggests that this feeling of injustice can even motivate citizens to vote for right-wing radical parties who are against feminism and sexual freedom.”


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/02/men-30-less-accepting-womens-rights/
>> No. 39450 Anonymous
3rd October 2022
Monday 9:55 am
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>>39449
>"Some people believe that increased gender equality only benefits women and do not see the benefits for society as a whole."

You'd think backing female autonomy would get women on side with fighting eskimo oppression or trans-exclusionary rhetoric or whatever the bogeyman of the day is for the right.

The only benefit I can see from their perspective of curtailing womens rights is to slowly shift the Overton window towards authoritarianism / state control over the individual. Part of me wants to believe that's just paranoia though.
>> No. 39451 Anonymous
3rd October 2022
Monday 10:01 am
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>>39449
>Furthermore, young men are more likely to see women’s progress at their expense and the trend is most prominent in areas with high unemployment and less trust in institutions, according to the findings.
This is true though. Young women are doing better than young men on everything.
>> No. 39452 Anonymous
3rd October 2022
Monday 10:55 am
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>>39451
Not at giving blowjobs.
>> No. 39453 Anonymous
3rd October 2022
Monday 12:18 pm
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>>39449

This study is quite clearly ideologically biased, that doesn't make for good science.

Either way stuff like this is quite typical of the broader liberal inability to grapple with the reasons their political project is rapidly failing to maintain dominance. Instead of engaging with the evidence and understanding why they are losing support, they always make up some bogeyman to shift the blame, for misleading people away from the self evident truth and righteousness of feminism, LGBTQIA++, racecraft, etc.

What a shame.
>> No. 39454 Anonymous
3rd October 2022
Monday 2:14 pm
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>>39452

I think otherlad meant that young women are doing better as in are better off, living in more favourable circumstances, not "are better" as in more skilled in everything.
>> No. 39604 Anonymous
3rd November 2022
Thursday 5:36 pm
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Those behind the survey in the OP have recently made this brainfart.
>> No. 39605 Anonymous
3rd November 2022
Thursday 6:34 pm
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>>39604

I mean. Journalists, innit.

You can imagine the type of person responsible for making a statement like this and being genuinely oblivious to the obvious. We already know journalists are, by and large, entirely made up of privileged posho kids. Spoiled little cunts who have rarely been told "no" in their lives. Just combine that kind of background with a humanities degree in contemporary university culture, where nobody would ever dare question the PC sacred cows, and those kind of people only become more isolated and confident in their views.

The other side of the coin, I suppose, is that these people are largely irrelevant, preaching to their own little niche, and not being taken very seriously at all outside of it. I do get the impression that for all the noise fisherfolk are allowed to make these days, it's a bit like when a kid does a drawing, and the grown ups put it on the fridge. It's heavily frowned upon to tell a kid their crayon drawing is shit, so everyone plays along, and it doesn't really matter when they come out with hilarious stuff like this now and again.
>> No. 39629 Anonymous
16th November 2022
Wednesday 2:35 pm
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>>39604

Men are always expendable, innit.

I remember there was similar outrage in the U.S. a few years ago when there was a statistic that the percentage of homeless women had doubled to make up 25 percent of the entire homeless population. Not saying that that's a good thing in any way, but it does mean that 75 percent of homeless people are men. And that their numbers presumably had actually been decreasing. But no, it had to be framed so that homelessness was somehow an urgent women's issue.
>> No. 40168 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 8:23 am
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Don’t talk to pupils about misogynist Andrew Tate, government urges teachers in England

Teachers are being advised by the government not to discuss social media influencer Andrew Tate, the “king of toxic masculinity”, with pupils – despite schools reporting a rising tide of misogyny and sexual harassment from boys as young as nine.

One small charity, Diversify, based in Rotherham, which runs school workshops about inclusion, receives about 25 calls a week from primary and secondary schools across England who want help dealing with sexual harassment and “shocking misogynistic incidents”. Many cite the influence of Tate, who is under house arrest in Romania for suspected human trafficking and organised crime. Tate’s TikTok videos tell boys that a woman belongs to her boyfriend; girls who don’t stay at home are “hoes”; and rape victims must “bear responsibility” for their attacks.

The charity’s co-founder Sara Cunningham estimates that an average class of 30 children will have eight boys who admire Tate. She is frustrated that officials at the Department for Education (DfE) have been advising heads who reach out for help not to encourage discussion of Tate’s views in personal, social and health education (PSHE) lessons, and are refusing to offer any training or resources.

She said: “We were in a south London primary school recently and students as young as 10 knew a lot about Tate’s arrest and [allegations of] rape. One 10-year-old boy said these women consented to sex because they went back to Tate’s house.”

A small church primary school recently called the charity in to talk to pupils after four nine-year-old boys locked a girl in a cupboard, threatened to “fuck her in the throat” and then made her watch porn video clips. The school commissioned Diversify to run three workshops with pupils on misogyny and consent, during which a number of boys mentioned Tate and said they could not see any problem with his views. On Cunningham’s advice, the school reported the sexual abuse to their local authority child safeguarding team, but they have received no response.

The assistant head of a secondary school in south-east England asked the charity to talk to her pupils after disciplining a male student for harassing a girl by sending her a barrage of threatening and explicit sexual messages, on one occasion while standing outside her house. The teacher said that during the harassment workshop this student frequently referenced Tate, saying: “You shouldn’t take no for an answer [from a girl] as that shows weakness.” She said: “I was shocked by the sheer number of young, seemingly lovely boys showing the same point of view.”


https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/apr/29/talk-pupils-misogynist-andrew-tate-teachers-schools-england

I'm sure this will all turn out fine.
>> No. 40169 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 11:01 am
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>>40168

Not saying that Andrew Tate isn't an absolute cunt who should serve as a role model for exactly nobody. Just listening to the guy for five minutes should give you an idea what a failed human being he is. And a con man, really. To me, that's at least as bad as everything else.

My problem tends to be with these charities, who more often than not don't simply want to educate kids and teenagers on respect for women and on socially adequate courtship. Again, don't get me wrong, respect and socially adequate ways of treating each other are things that should be instilled in both sexes. But these charities tend to be not just about awareness, but they are a way for a certain type of adult women to channel their generalised hatred against men into indoctrinating the young that there's generally something wrong with boys. Just look at that campaign telling you to not be "that guy". Yes, it's a good idea to be an upstanding younglad who treats girls fairly and who does something when he sees other lads disrespecting women. But you can't help feeling that the message they want to convey doesn't stop there.

At least when I was in school, nobody ever bothered to tell the girls that they should be respectful with us boys. And a lot of them weren't. Not by a mile. There are a lot of other ways you can abuse somebody besides physical violence. And that's disregarding the fact that nearly 40 percent of all relationship violence originates from the female partner.
>> No. 40172 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 12:59 pm
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>>40168
>>40169
I hate to use a meme to make my argument but it's definitely not some ninny working in a charity who should be the one instructing boys. This is probably the root of all our problems really.
>> No. 40174 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:13 pm
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>>40172
The problem is that if the 'ninny working in a charity' doesn't intervene then we're stuck with nine-year-olds threatening to fuck a girl in the throat because they're growing up with Andrew Tate as a role model.

I've had a look at Diversify and I agree they're not the ones who boys will look up to but there's a dearth of alternatives. Who's the left-wing version of Jordan Peterson trying to connect with alienated young men? Who's the left-wing version of Nigel Farage? What is it about the left that means they're struggling to reach out and gain popularity? Why is there this vacuum that grifters like Tate can exploit? If you get rid of Tate that doesn't solve the problem.
>> No. 40175 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:18 pm
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>>40174

In my day, kids had dads.
>> No. 40176 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:19 pm
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>>40172

Always choose a fat lad with a beer down the pub.

Boys need strong male role models in their lives. Fathers, uncles and older brothers who lead by positive xample. They're not going to turn into self-respecting (and women-respecting) young men by being told they're all potential rapists. In a lot of them, it's only going to increase their resentment against women. Andrew Tate grew up in Septicland, the world's leading third-wave fisherperson country, and look how he turned out. As morally corrupt and unfit as a role model as he is, he's not a product of "rape culture". He's a product of a fisherperson society that has long given up the idea that girls and boys are equal.
>> No. 40177 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:20 pm
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>>40175
Parents can't compete with the internet.
>> No. 40178 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:28 pm
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>>40176
>Andrew Tate grew up in Septicland, the world's leading third-wave fisherperson country, and look how he turned out. As morally corrupt and unfit as a role model as he is, he's not a product of "rape culture". He's a product of a fisherperson society that has long given up the idea that girls and boys are equal.

I think Andrew Tate being a dickhead is less to do with feminism and more to do with his dad filling him full of macho abusive bullshit.
>> No. 40179 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:30 pm
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>>40174
What does politics even have to do with it? I don't even see why Peterson is such a problem outside of picking up the most borderline nutty conspiracy theories - the competition is so bad he's a viable option.

Kids need better role models, it's a problem we've had for decades and only gotten worse as men have left the teaching profession and things like scouts. The void is now being filled with online grifters whereas before it was hippity-hop men and older teenagers who can do a wheelie for a bear long time. It probably hurts women too, not just because there's a load of cunts running around but girls are growing up admiring men who scream into a microphone on youtube or what-have-you.
>> No. 40180 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:34 pm
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>>40178

What I said about positive male role models still applies. And that tweet doesn't prove that his dad told him to disrespect women. It looks like he taught him to get up after somebody pushes you down. Which is a valuable life skill, although his dad may have been a bit too rough on him.
>> No. 40181 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:43 pm
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>>40179

> as men have left the teaching profession and things like scouts

And why have they done that. Not because men suddenly no longer enjoy teaching children. But because any lad wanting to get into being a kindergarten or primary school teacher or scout leader automatically looks like a paedo.

Which only adds to the problem of young boys having no male role models. In Britain, you can effectively be twelve years old and never had a male teacher or authority figure in your life. Add to that the fact that it's usually the mothers who end up raising the kids after a divorce because family courts have been biased towards women for decades, and you end up with scores of boys who simply don't know what a positive male role model even is. And that's when they get sucked into the bizarre world of people like Andrew Tate.
>> No. 40182 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 1:56 pm
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>>40174
>What is it about the left that means they're struggling to reach out and gain popularity?
That the left is reasonably popular as is, it's just stylistically different. There are no left-wing grifter versions of right-wing grifters (that is, left-Tates or left-Trumps) because that's not what a left-wing grifter looks like.
Plenty of alienated young men decide that the solution to their problems is somewhere in skimreading the communist manifesto and engaging in twitter discourse about who gets gulaged (or indeed whether gulag jokes are problematic), but as a bookish bore they remove themselves from the pool of people you imagine when you think "alienated young man". He's the wrong kind of alienated and the wrong kind of man. There's a big market out there in grifting money out of him, but those grifters style themselves differently.
I've styled him as a total commie here, but he might be much more moderate than that. It's the substance of being alienated that counts, not so much how they go about it, or how stylish that choice seems.

Attempts to find a synthesis position on the left-right grift axis always wind up awkward. Look at the state of George Galloway nowadays - he's trying to do the anti-woke left bit (though still not the dad-substitute bit), but if he was a new market entrant rather than coasting off Iraq he'd get less attention online than I do.
>> No. 40183 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 2:18 pm
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There's Vaush and Beau of the Fifth Column and I assume there are other people occupying the same social spheres or profit models as them. I think to a degree, styling yourself as a role model might be a bit of an übermensch-mindset thing to do. Role models are leaders and anti-authoritarians aren't all that keen on those.
>> No. 40184 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 2:40 pm
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>>40178

His dad was a linguist a top-level chess player. His dad's dad was a lawyer. Andrew Tate's parents divorced when he was 11. His mother took the kids back to England and raised them on a council estate.

That aside, the problem isn't really Tate. There will always be strange men with strange views; the more important question is why those views find a receptive audience. Extremism rarely gains a foothold in stable economies and thriving communities.

Yes, I'm saying that it's all about class and mostly the fault of the broadsheet-reading petit-bourgeoisie.
>> No. 40185 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 2:55 pm
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>>40181
Why don't you go do it then? Listen to your inner Michael Jackson and start with the man in the mirror.

>Add to that the fact that it's usually the mothers who end up raising the kids after a divorce because family courts have been biased towards women for decades

This is bullshit. An entirely made up gripe but one that plays to a one-sided persecution complex. The vast majority of divorces don't end in the courtroom and while that says nothing of the bias when it does get to court it points to the issue of who gets the children being driven by other factors. You also have to take into account that a court's ultimate concern and where it will be challenged is in the well-being of any children.

Men work longer hours that keeps them away from their kids and a lot of men are just outright shithouses. Not to rob women of agency but I highly doubt the majority are standing at the alter thinking to themselves how great it will be to have a bunch of bratty kids to raise alone.
>> No. 40186 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 6:12 pm
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>>40185
>Why don't you go do it then? Listen to your inner Michael Jackson
That's exactly what the Twitter fisherpersons are afraid he'll do.

Anyway, one observation I have about this is that there is an almost endless list of what men shouldn't do, but there's no advice anywhere on what we should do. I'm a bit socially mongy and I'm starting to wonder if I lacked male role models as a child, since all my problems in life relate to my utter cluelessness in traditional male situations. And I can fuck my life up in a thousand different ways if nobody tells me what the correct course of action will be. My problems are minor but feel insurmountable because I don't know where to start, and if I try something and it doesn't work, should I keep trying or try something else instead? If I had big and serious problems, it would be no wonder if I wound up deciding that gang rape was based and alpha.

Of course, the other observation I have made is that society itself has withdrawn a number of opportunities for traditional male self-esteem. I should be able to raise a family of four on my adult man's salary, but who can do that these days? We're all broke as fuck. Nobody can do DIY because for most of us, it's not even our house; we're just renting it and we're not allowed to go pulling up floorboards. Most machinery is now designed so it cannot be repaired. All the things we should be good at, we never even get a chance to be good at because we're skint office drones doing endless busywork to afford a room in someone else's house. This isn't true of everyone, but I'm willing to bet it's true of almost everyone who thinks a dribbling simpleton who loves sex crimes is The Voice of Reason™.
>> No. 40187 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 6:26 pm
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>>40186

Sounds a bit fight-club
>> No. 40188 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 6:45 pm
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>>40184
>the more important question is why those views find a receptive audience

The prevalent line of thinking that I'm seeing, at least in places infested with mind worms, is that traditionally all a man has needed to do to attract a wife is to have a job and be a provider. Many modern men are finding that this is no longer enough, but they don't actually have anything to offer beyond this because they have no real personality or other attractive traits, so they're yearning to go back to traditional values rather than choosing to work on themself (unless you count taking advice from Tate as working to improve yourself).

I mean, they almost get it but they're more interested in painting these men as losers rather than wanting to do something about it.
>> No. 40189 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 9:18 pm
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>>40186

>society itself has withdrawn a number of opportunities for traditional male self-esteem. I should be able to raise a family of four on my adult man's salary, but who can do that these days? We're all broke as fuck. Nobody can do DIY because for most of us, it's not even our house; we're just renting it and we're not allowed to go pulling up floorboards. Most machinery is now designed so it cannot be repaired. All the things we should be good at, we never even get a chance to be good at


Excuses, excuses. You don't have to tear out the floorboards to be a man. Get a technical hobby. Build your own furniture. Get a shed out back. There are plenty of ways you can still hone your practical skills and feel more manly doing it.

And just get an older car. I know that nowadays you always have to prove to yourself and your neighbours that you're middle class enough that you can afford to jump from one ludicrously overpriced financed new car to the next, but why not break that cycle and get a Golf Mk IV. A Rover 75. At least as a second car. Any low-tech halfway decent car from the last century will do to teach yourself how to work on cars, and you'll spend less to buy it than the down payment for your brand new Passat or Audi A4.
>> No. 40190 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 9:58 pm
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>>40189

>Excuses, excuses. You don't have to tear out the floorboards to be a man. Get a technical hobby. Build your own furniture. Get a shed out back. There are plenty of ways you can still hone your practical skills and feel more manly doing it.

That's easier said than done if there aren't any practical men in your life. It's hard to just figure it out for yourself, in the same way that it's hard to be the first person in your family to go to university or to learn how to manage money if you grew up skint. D&T teaching in schools has been decimated in recent years because of budget cuts, health and safety fears, a lack of qualified teachers and a focus on the core GCSE subjects.

Young lads today are two generations removed from anyone who has been down the pit or done a shift at the steelworks. There are still blue-collar families where everyone is in the building trade or a mechanic or whatever, but there are far more families that are nominally working-class but where nobody actually works with their hands. That's even before we look at the number of young lads who have few if any male adults in their lives.

I occasionally do odd jobs for my ex-stepdad's stepson's ex-girlfriend that tenuous chain of connection speaks volumes about the state of modern families. Her sons, who for the sake of convenience we'll call my nephews, are always fascinated when I turn up, because I just know how to do stuff. The idea that someone who isn't a plumber could fix a toilet seems slightly bizarre to them, like getting your mate to pop around and take out your appendix. It wouldn't have occurred to them that you can just buy some tools and have a go; they still see it as slightly subversive, like you aren't supposed to try anything unless you've been on a course first. I suppose if you've grown up in a world where most of the mums are single and most of the houses are rented, it just isn't part of your life experience.
>> No. 40191 Anonymous
30th April 2023
Sunday 10:32 pm
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>>40189
>Build your own furniture. Get a shed out back.
Spoken by a man who clearly does not live in a flat.
>> No. 40192 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 9:32 am
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>>40189

>And just get an older car.
To devil's advocate; and keep it where? Keep the tools where? Buy the tools how?
>> No. 40193 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 1:07 pm
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>>40192

Rent a garage. It'll also have room for your tools.

https://www.gumtree.com/search?search_category=garage-parking-to-rent&search_location=uk&property_type=garage


When I lived in a flat, I had a rented space on an upper level of a nearby multistorey car park for my second car. I knew the owner and he told me that if I always cleaned up after myself and didn't leave any oil spots on the floor, I could work on my car there. And for the more hands-on repairs, I always went to a DIY/self service garage where I could rent a lift and professional tools.

Having an old car as a hobby when you live in a flat really isn't as big a problem as you make it out to be. And I kept my tools (which I also used for all the small jobs around the flat that I didn't feel like phoning the landlord for) in my basement room which came with the flat.

Which again goes to prove that if you want to get into all the hands-on blokey technical stuff, there are ways regardless of where and how you live.
>> No. 40194 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 1:21 pm
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>>40193
>I had a rented space
Costs money.
>a nearby multistorey car park
That's luck, in location.
>second car
More money.
>I knew the owner
Luck again.
>I could rent a lift and professional tools.
Money, but more importantly you had previous circumstances giving you the knowledge and confidence to use these things, which is also luck.
>basement room which came with the flat
Some people pay extra for storage space, some people get it by chance.

I'm not disputing that many people will have some of this luck or be able to afford some of these things but it's increasingly less common for them all to align in just the right way as it has for you. It's a significantly higher barrier to entry, especially if you compare it to something like eating healthily; something that's far more important and requires less time/cash/space/education yet people still struggle to do.
>> No. 40195 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 1:57 pm
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>>40194

I guess the factor of luck is also that I come from a family of engineers. All the technical stuff just runs in our family. I don't have any formal qualification as an engineer, which is where I broke the mould in my family. I went into economics instead. But I was always drawn to my dad's toolbox and wrench set as a weelad, and would giddily pretend to fix the TV set or the fridge.

Yes, having an old second car as a hobby costs money, but then, what hobby doesn't. I don't drink and I don't smoke, and I am otherwise a frugal person all around. Old cars are the only one of my passions that costs me a fair bit of money.

What I can relate to is what otherlad said about some people thinking that being good with tools and mechanics is somehow some sort of wizardry or black magic. I once changed a friend's exhaust and a control arm or two, and she was completely bewildered that somebody who didn't train as a car mechanic had the knowledge to be able to do those things on a car.

To me, they're entirely straighforward repairs and not at all difficult, you remove a few screws and bolts and then swap out the parts, then tighten the screws and bolts again, and you're done. But I guess when you've never done anything like it, your concept of it can be a bit different.
>> No. 40196 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 3:00 pm
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bike-school-696x444.jpg
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>>40194

Otherlad, here. I get what you're saying, there's a lot of chance and money involved, but all hobbies have a certain barrier to entry. These things are rarely impossible as much as they are impractical, and only you can decide whether the trade-offs are worth it from your starting position. Musical instruments are noisy and expensive, for example, but if you're passionate about learning something you can usually find a way to make things work.

Since it's a bank holiday, perhaps you lads will indulge me, since I have experience getting into hobbies I have no business being involved in. Basically, I never learned to ride a bicycle as a kid, but in my early 20s I decided I wanted to ride motorcycles. I plotted out, step-by-step, what I needed to do in a big spreadsheet. It was bloody humbling. I started out by purchasing a second-hand bicycle and learning to ride it at a charity largely aimed at children and the elderly. I'm sure the person I spoke to initially thought it was a practical joke, but I shit you not, some kind soul out there was generous enough to push a fully grown man balancing on two wheels as he learned how to ride a fucking bike. I was embarrassed, but it felt exhilarating when he let go and I rode for the first time.

Every step has been like that, but I'll spare you both every detail. With absolutely no precedent and only the guidance I sought out myself, I managed to rent a garage ten minutes away from my parents house, started riding a little Honda scooter to work to get used to my local roads, and then later upgraded to a cheap 125cc bike to practice with gears. I bought some plastic picnic tables from B&Q, some tools, and a Hayne's manual, and learned my way around basic maintenance. I bought little football agility cones to test myself. I passed my category A test and eventually found my arse on an 800cc sports tourer, which I happily ride now in my 30s.

I suppose the point to sharing this is to say that none of it would have happened without those painful and inconvenient first steps. Yes, I know lads that had rode motocross since they were 13 or could hop on their dad's spare bike as they pleased, but working this stuff out is a pleasure in itself. It definitely taps into the "I'll get it done somehow" mindset that you need in life, sometimes.
>> No. 40197 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 3:22 pm
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>>40196

This.

You can either makes excuses all your life why you can't do A or can't do B because you were never shown or taught how to do them or you don't have the money (which, unless you're completely skint, probably isn't 100% true), or you can decide to start dabbling in things. And then maybe take it further to develop into an actual skill or skillset.

I learned to cook with no prior experience one day during uni when I had an almost fatal intestinal tract condition known as pseudomembranous colitis. While recovering from it, it meant that campus cafeteria food was off limits, because it tended to give me violent diarrhea. Something about food there not being constantly kept at temperatures that prevented the growth of bacteria and pathogens. No problem for somebody with a healthy gut, but pseudomembranous colitis disrupts your gut flora to such an extent that you pretty much cannot tolerate any food that you haven't freshly cooked yourself. Not even take aways. Take aways are actually some of the worst food when you have that condition.

Anyway, I knew fuck all about cooking, my mum was a stay at home housewife and was a terrific cook but never really showed us kids how to cook while we were growing up. I taught myself everything from how to cook and prepare vegetables to marinading your various meats or even how to whip up a roast, the whole what-have-you. And these days, I'm decently skilled at most home cooked dishes you'll find in the average household.

I'm a firm believer that anybody can do almost anything, with the right amount of practice. Your brain and your talents are far more malleable than you think. And practicing a skill so you'll become good at it often isn't just a matter of simply not having the means or the time or a proper teacher or mentor. It's a matter of wanting to overcome obstacles.
>> No. 40198 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 3:51 pm
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>>40196
>>40197

That's fine but doesn't mean there isn't a higher barrier to entry than there used to be.
>> No. 40199 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 4:06 pm
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>>40198

I know you've been on about this for several posts now, and maybe you really believe that.

But just because having practical technical skills is less common than it used to be, which I'll give you, doesn't always mean they're prohibitively more difficult to pick up. Just look at things like Skillshare. There are still ways, and you could even argue that with the Internet, they've actually become easier to get into.

I've been a hobbying grease monkey for over 20 years, but on some repairs, I would still be lost without the Internet. For example, you really need to know a few specifics about an engine in order to be able to successfully swap a timing belt so the engine doesn't fuck itself when you turn it over afterwards. Before the Internet, that information was difficult to come by for the average person if you didn't somehow have the workshop manual for that particular engine. But now, all that knowledge is readily available to anyone.
>> No. 40200 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 5:00 pm
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>>40199

For the sake of argument, I will chip in and say it's also possible that some aspects about learning technical skills have become easier, while other aspects have become more difficult. Information accessibility is better, now, and I'd have been fucked at many steps along my bike-riding project without search engines. I even looked up a video on how to open a Givi top box (it's not as obvious as you might think).

Where things are more challenging, though, is doing it all without a mentor. I'm proud of the fact I was able to figure things out by myself, but I'd be lying if I said I thought it was easier that way. Having the mental and emotional wherewithall not to become discouraged when things go wrong, and to plough on and take a best guess in the face of uncertainty, is a very hard thing to do. A good mentor can smooth out that process and tell you what to expect, allow you to avoid the non-obvious pitfalls, and offer a bit of encouragement.
>> No. 40201 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 5:16 pm
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>>40199

They are clearly difficult enough to pick up that significantly fewer people do it, which is what we were discussing.
>> No. 40202 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 6:15 pm
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While there are real practical difficulties to picking up a hobby, I think a counter-intuitive reason is also how many things have gotten easier. Tinkering with a car is a lot more appealing than day drinking and watching 1 of the 4 channels your telly receives. But once you've got instant access to everything from incredibly specific pornography genres to arguments about masculinity on an anonymous messageboard to videos of other people tinkering with their cars, then even if you want to get into tinkering with your car you'll have a job getting away from the internet. It's too easy to find fun (or at least mildly entertaining) things to do to stave off boredom, never hitting the threshold necessary to make the effort of tinkering worth it.
(Of course, nearly every commercial website is designed to encourage this. You messing around with a car in your driveway isn't going to pay their server bills or drive up engagement figures.)
>> No. 40203 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 6:21 pm
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I don't know quite how this thread has veered off into some weird pedantic debate about how easy or how hard it is to learn practical skills nowadays, but I think there's plenty worth considering with the likes of that Tate fellow, and for what it's worth, I think not bringing that kind of thing up in schools is, while it might not feel like it, probably the right move.

Frankly it's not like kids ever listen to what teachers tell them isn't a good thing to get involved with, is it? I mean do you think it would have stopped Are Shamima fucking off to Syria if her school had maybe had one of those special assemblies to say "Hey by the way ISIS are kind of dicks, mmkay? Definitely don't go to Syria and join them no matter how much it sounds like they are really offering you the purpose in life your teenage mind desperately yearns for."

And Shamima is a good example because just look at the difference when it's boys versus girls. It fully betrays the cynical "bigotry of low expectations" that even the most sincere of fisherpersons carry forward in their views and attitudes to the world. There's nobody more sexist than a lot of fisherpersons, who think they are fighting for women's equality but are really just fighting for women to be sheltered and coddled in a slightly different, less transparently infantile way than the Old Days- They still think women should have more leniency and lower standards; and they still apply the same old completely straight faced traditional expectations and standards of masculinity to men and boys. So that's why when it's a bloke like Tate making young lads into sexists, it's their own fault and it's men's own problem to solve it. That's why Poisonous Muscularity verbatim carries a "victim blaming" pattern of logic that would be instantly decried if it were used toward women, and sincerely instructs men to essentially man up and sort out their own problems, because only a loser and a nerd would fall for being such an un-manly non-man like one of those lot, you know, the in-cels and Emm Are Ays, the neckbeard virgin pathetic creeps that they are.

You get the drift.

Nobody will ever learn the fundamental lesson. If you don't provide a way for people to identify with your ideological movement, if you constantly scapegoat and alienate one particular demographic, they will turn against you. It's really not rocket science is it. It doesn't matter how right you are, it wouldn't matter if the spirits of Jesus and Ghandi and fucking Albert Einstein or whoever else came from the heavens to tell humanity that yes, men really are that privileged, and so should just suck it up and keep quiet until we have finished beating the final boss of Equality. It still wouldn't go down well, because that just is not how people work.

You have to offer people a reason to support you, and that is what fisherpersonry, and broadly the liberal political "agenda" in general, if you want to call it that, does not grasp. And that is precisely why people like Tate will keep coming up to plague them, and will keep being bafflingly popular for reasons the liberal sorts themselves can simply never grasp.

Anyway I think it is broadly true that the best route to happiness and healthy self esteem is to cultivate that somewhat stoic, mindfulness oriented attitude towards yourself where you actively practice self-love and self-respect, Cultivate your own skills and learn how to centre your sense of worth within, not on external validation. But one does have to acknowledge it is true that modern society makes that harder than ever to do, because that's is literally what the entire advertising and marketing machine or consumer capitalism has been trying its level best to do for the last 70 years. You've all seen Century of the Self I am sure, right?

Anyway, the point is that I think that has a lot to do with the reason we find ourselves in today's milieu with identity politics and the gender wars and so on. People have been conditioned to seek their self-worth and self-esteem via external validation, external re-enforcement, because that makes them much more malleable consumers. That's why they so often take refuge in identity politics, both to the left and the right. If there's anything they feel insecure in or vulnerable about, they seek somebody, or a social group, who promises or enables to world around them to be altered, instead of having to work on themselves. Young lads will flock to a person like Tate because he offers them some validation to be a straight white male in a world that seems to loathe and constantly vilifies a straight white male's very existence, and really that's no different to a trans teenager seeking refuge in a safe space online community that tells them it's okay to be a pronoun person in a world that routinely tells them they are abominations.

So yeah I mean. Honestly, it's all fucked up, but guess what. Capitalism innit.
>> No. 40204 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 6:30 pm
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>>40202

>You messing around with a car in your driveway isn't going to pay their server bills or drive up engagement figures.


It just might. Sites like Instructables.com seem to get by fine.

https://www.instructables.com/search/?q=changing%20brakes&projects=all
>> No. 40205 Anonymous
1st May 2023
Monday 6:41 pm
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How about this: One of you lads who's handy with a wrench, do what this bloke does.
https://www.youtube.com/@DadhowdoI
But instead of being "dad", be that chubby bloke down the pub, an uncle who addresses the camera as "mates".

Actually looking at his channel he does teach you a lot of DIY stuff but that doesn't mean there's no market for it, with the right attitude.
>> No. 40227 Anonymous
13th May 2023
Saturday 12:50 am
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>>40204
>Sites like Instructables.com seem to get by fine.
Genuinely, even though I had heard of this site, I had never visited it, and yet just now I made my own ice cream because seeing you mention it inspired me to try something.

https://www.instructables.com/3-Ingredient-Chocolate-Ice-Cream-No-Machine/

It was a piece of piss, any bugger can do it, and I can tell already from licking the wooden spoon and whisk beaters that it's going to be delicious. Although the ingredients I bought turned out not to be the same amounts as in the recipe, and I don't like wasting food. I don't have a healthy diet at the best of times, but even I thought I was pushing it when I drank the remaining third of a tin of condensed milk rather than throw it away.
>> No. 40228 Anonymous
13th May 2023
Saturday 2:04 am
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>>40204

Likewise, iFixit seem to have figured out a solid business model based on teaching you how to fix your own stuff for free, then selling you parts and tools.

https://www.ifixit.com/
>> No. 40229 Anonymous
13th May 2023
Saturday 11:33 am
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>>40227

Good on you, lad.

My fusion reactor is still in its early stages.

https://www.instructables.com/Build-A-Fusion-Reactor/


something, something, 1.21 jiggawatts
>> No. 40629 Anonymous
15th July 2023
Saturday 12:58 pm
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/14/met-police-undercover-officers-fine-men-cat-calling-women/

Is catcalling really a big problem in London?
>> No. 40630 Anonymous
15th July 2023
Saturday 2:22 pm
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>>40629
>CCTV operators in Redbridge now run specially targeted women’s safety shifts which involve identifying lone women walking home late at night and checking the nearby area for threats.
>They can also deploy officers to make sure they are safe, and to speak to any men who may be acting suspiciously.

Imagine taking a stroll one night and you get stopped by a load of cops on bikes who start rapidly asking you where you're going and where you live and generally trying to get you to kick off like bouncers do. You tell them to fuck off and suddenly you find yourself being bundled into the back of a police van as a rapist.

It's the same with all those signs you get on the underground telling you not to look at women as some cack handed solution.
>> No. 40631 Anonymous
15th July 2023
Saturday 3:24 pm
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>>40630
We live in a (failing) optics based society. The rights of man, and woman, are being eroded solely for the sake of show. There was a very brief window back in the 90s and early 00s where it looked like things were getting better, like the grand experiment had been justified. The most egregious racism and sexism had been eliminated, more and more people were judged on merit rather than birth, more than at any other point in history. There was also an understanding that people were allowed to like and dislike things, you could be a bit racist, a bit sexist, but the line was marked as intended, you can't beat people up for being different, and you can't use positions of power to discriminate against them.

Everything since then has been an optics based solution to a solved problem. It would be nice if armies gathered up their gear and went home when the war was won, but they never do. The battles raged on, suddenly the line wasn't physical abuse, it was the insinuation of physical abuse, then it was the belief that physical abuse may occur, then it was emotional and mental abuse, then financial abuse, and now it's staring.

I know the other lad is going to write an essay on why exactly non-consensual looking is the worst thing since Genghis Khan, but I simply do not care. The simple fact is it does not end here. You might ask what evidence I have to back up this statement, and I refer you back to my timeline of the law around definitions of abuse. I don't know where we're going, but I don't like it.

And to make a specific and BRILLIANT point which I usually try to avoid as it tends to distract from the central theme but in this case I can't resist, are women really going to feel safer being followed around dark alleys by police officers given very recent history?

I should point out, even though it seems obvious, that talking about some kind of golden age in the 90s is very brit-centric, plenty of countries had it far worse than us at the time and indeed still have it much worse than us today. America comes to mind here. The poor, fat bastards. That said, I live here, not elsewhere.
>> No. 40632 Anonymous
15th July 2023
Saturday 4:35 pm
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>>40631
>The most egregious racism and sexism had been eliminated, more and more people were judged on merit rather than birth, more than at any other point in history.
I believe this is the point at which Graham pulls the lever to dump you out of the chair.
>> No. 40633 Anonymous
15th July 2023
Saturday 5:15 pm
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>>40632
That's funny because it references a current popular entertainment programme in which people beg for approval by embarrassing themselves in front of millions of strangers.
>> No. 40634 Anonymous
15th July 2023
Saturday 10:39 pm
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>>40633
You were content enough to embarrass yourself in front of the two of us, so it seemed like a good point of reference.
>> No. 40637 Anonymous
16th July 2023
Sunday 10:24 pm
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>>40634
You seem like exactly the sort of nasty bastard who would benefit from the infantilisation of civilisation.
>> No. 40638 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 11:51 am
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>>40632

This kind of response proves his point very well, and moreover, demonstrates how and why things have gone this way so rapidly over the last decade.

See how he was talking about optics? That's you, that is. You couldn't resist making that kind of snarky little jab, without engaging any of the substance of his post, because on places like Rudgwick or Twiter, that would get you a load of virtual back pats. Everyone would make a display of agreement, and you'd feel confident you are therefore in the right; just as in your metaphor, you just take it as granted and self evident that dismissing this person has the majority moral support.

But it's all fake. It's not true. You live in a bubble world where people having the right attitudes is all that matters, you are unconcerned altogether with real life outcomes. You support and legitimise things that actively make shit worse, because and even sometimes purely so that you can have a good circlejerk over it on social media.

But the real world just goes on without you.
>> No. 40639 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 12:02 pm
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How dare you make silly jokes on an imageboard. If you don't spend all Saturday debating me that only proves why the country's gone to the dogs. I'm a serious thinker, respect my opinions.
>> No. 40640 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 12:15 pm
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>>40639

This isn't really one of the most light hearted threads, in case you've not noticed.
>> No. 40641 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 1:18 pm
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>>40639
>You were content enough to embarrass yourself in front of the two of us, so it seemed like a good point of reference.

That's not a joke, it's not funny. It's just social policing. You're straightforwardly telling him he's out of line and gross, and everyone thinks he's gross and out of line, so he'd better shut up if he knows what's good for him.
>> No. 40642 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 5:54 pm
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>>40641
>You're straightforwardly telling him he's out of line and gross
If he genuinely thinks that egregious discrimination is over and people are being judged on merit, he straightforwardly is out of line. The idea that we've somehow fixed the worst bits of society and the cream can now rise is patent nonsense. It's like standing outside and saying the sky is really green with pink polka dots.
>> No. 40643 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 11:47 pm
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>>40642
I never said what you said I said. I don't like you enough to put energy in to helping you understand my point, though, I think you don't need help, I think you're doing it on purpose.
>> No. 40644 Anonymous
17th July 2023
Monday 11:59 pm
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>>40643
> I think you don't need help, I think you're doing it on purpose

+100
>> No. 40645 Anonymous
18th July 2023
Tuesday 12:55 am
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>>40643
>>40644
I don't know why you two are soggying eachother's biscuits but it's weird.
>> No. 41151 Anonymous
4th October 2023
Wednesday 5:09 pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN6fHDQ6IZQ
>> No. 41159 Anonymous
4th October 2023
Wednesday 8:55 pm
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>>41151
It must be weird to be a woman who has been mugged. Would such a hypothetical woman feel the way I feel about this, which is that it's useless and they should focus more on muggings? Or would they be more supportive of this campaign?
>> No. 41160 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 12:57 am
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https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/male-psychology-magazine-listings/landmark-research-study-finds-clear-evidence-of-pro-women/anti-men-bias

Should women, as a gender, be doing more to tackle this bias?
>> No. 41161 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 8:53 am
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>>41160

Most have been indoctrinated to think that men are the problem. It'd be useless. At best, they'll parrot the narrative that "toxic masculinity hurts men too".
>> No. 41162 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 11:22 am
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>>41160
>>41161
It was an implicit association test. There’s nothing you can do to get rid of it. The only purpose of those experiments is to prove that people really are prejudiced even when they think they aren’t. And even then, the link is pretty tenuous. That’s before we even mention that the site you linked to clearly has an agenda.
>> No. 41163 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 12:46 pm
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>>41161
>Most have been indoctrinated to think that men are the problem.
Yeah! What they need to realise is that ultimately, women are raping and abusing themselves!
>> No. 41164 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 12:53 pm
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>>41163

Rape: The only crime
>> No. 41165 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 1:05 pm
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>>41163

You are obviously making no effort to understand the problem.
>> No. 41166 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 1:22 pm
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>>41165
Not him, but the problem is fairly well-understood. Women aren't getting raped because they're contributing to it. They're getting raped because men have a socialised attitude of entitlement. Such as when rapists claim a woman was "dressed provocatively", or when they claim a woman "offered no clear sign she didn't want it".

But maybe you're right, maybe instead of men not raping women, maybe women should try harder to not get raped.
>> No. 41167 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 1:37 pm
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>>41166

I thought we dealt with you in the Russell Brand thread, simplad.

But you're missing the whole point. It's not the fact that some men do rape women or otherwise have sexist and toxic attitudes towards them. Quite unfortunately, it happens, and it really shouldn't, ever.

The point is a generalised belief that we're all rapists and that all of us have negative attitudes towards women.

Well, I don't rape women, and I don't act sexist around them. And neither do most blokes. It seems unfair to paint all men with that kind of broad brush, and I believe men need to complain when it happens.
>> No. 41168 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 3:14 pm
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>>41166

>They're getting raped because men have a socialised attitude of entitlement.

That's a very nice unfalsifiable hypothesis you've got there ladm8.

I'd personally say people get raped (and mugged, and murdered, and subjected to genocide, and trapped in their homes while they are bombarded with chemical weapons, or whatever else it might be), because a small percentage of other people are wrong 'uns who don't care about right or wrong. I'd say the reasons people do any of these things are manifold, deeply layered and complex.

Honestly it doesn't piss me off reading views like yours, I just find it pitiable.

Like, you genuinely think you're helping, but you have no idea how entirely impotent your screeching is, and it's a bit tragic to behold. It's like when during the black death those people went around flogging themselves to earn God's forgiveness. They earnestly thought they were doing the right thing, but they were mistaken, because in reality the plague had nothing to do with god, it was caused by a bacteria. Your convictions are purely and entirely an article of faith, not evidence or reason.
>> No. 41169 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 3:27 pm
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>>41168

So... rape is caused by bacteria, then?
>> No. 41170 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 3:41 pm
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>>41169

Men are already taught to not rape. Everyone agrees rape is wrong. Rapists are violent criminals and wronguns, no amount of shaming normal men about they're very bad harassers and probably rapists too is going to change the behaviour of a tiny minority of violent criminals.

Do you honestly imagine men walk around thinking they're entitled to any woman they fancy? That's so divorced from reality I can't imagine you actually believe it.
>> No. 41171 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 3:48 pm
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>>41170

I'm not simplad. I just felt like making a silly joke.


>Do you honestly imagine men walk around thinking they're entitled to any woman they fancy?

My brother once masturbated onto my stick insects because I wouldn't let him watch Thundercats. It didn't kill them but I didn't want them after that. And if they do, it's a delusion that will sort itself out over time if somebody's not completely thick. Live and learn. In year 10, I thought I had a chance with the fittest lasses at our school. Didn't take long for me to realise that I was hopelessly punching above my weight.
>> No. 41172 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 3:49 pm
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>>41171

>My brother once masturbated onto my stick insects because I wouldn't let him watch Thundercats. It didn't kill them but I didn't want them after that.

wtf kind of word filter is this. All I said was that I was agreeing with >>41170 lad.
>> No. 41173 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 8:11 pm
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>>41170
But it's not just criminal scum. Many women report being sexually assaulted or raped by perfectly nice-seeming men. The adverts are aimed at those men, who are not psychopaths but merely clueless about the difference between "ooh, don't touch me there, you naughty boy, tee hee" and "help, stop raping me, you fucking rapist".

By conflating the two, you are saying that many perfectly normal men really are irredeemable wrong 'uns, and that's exactly why you're angry at the advert; because it did precisely that.
>> No. 41174 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 8:27 pm
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>>41173

Not wanting to really get into it now, but I think I've read somewhere that when women were given questionnaires in surveys where they were asked if they had experienced sexual harrassment, the options listed included some behaviours that you might consider a bit rude or even slightly offensive, but not really think of as harrassment by most people's standards.

Which does two things. First, it suggests to survey subjects that some relatively mild offensive behaviours actually count as sexual harrassment, while also getting disturbingly high statistical numbers of prevalence of sexual harrassment.

I think on one of those questionnaires, "being witness to a person telling a sexually explicit joke and feeling uncomfortable because of it" was counted as sexual harrassment. I don't know, but unless that joke was directly directed at you, most women I know wouldn't feel harrassed. What I mean is, there's a difference between somebody telling a joke about another woman's big knockers, and somebody actually joking to you that your own knockers are big.
>> No. 41175 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 9:38 pm
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>>41173

Well, you see, this is where I have to disagree. I'm not going to come at it from an angle of "but those poor blokes just got confused/they were drunk/it's hard to see the line" or whatever, because that debate has been had to death around here. However- If it's the nice men (or as you say perfectly nice seeming), then really is it asking that much for women to actually take a bit of agency in preventing it?

And you will counter "but that's victim blaming stop blaming women for being victims of horrible rapists", but I thought it was perfectly nice men? Surely it'#s more effective to teach women to say "stop, that's actually out of order" than it is to broadcast a vague and non-specific message to 50-% of the entire population which is, by the nature of its vagueness and non-specificity, going to reach abso-fucking-lutely nobody, much less the people it needs to reach?

You could say "oh but those men might get nasty, women don't feel safe to say no", to which I must pedantically counter- But I thought it was the perfectly nice men? If they'#re going to get violent when a woman says no, then they're obviously fucking not the perfectly nice men, are they, so we are back to the root of the argument that it's innefective because rapists are fucking rapists, and they are going to commit rape no matter how much more illegal you make it, or how much more posters you put up on the tube saying "remember: don't do rapes, raping is naughty".
>> No. 41176 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 9:56 pm
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>>41175
>If they'#re going to get violent when a woman says no, then they're obviously fucking not the perfectly nice men
No, but they seem perfectly nice up to that point.
>> No. 41177 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 10:06 pm
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>>41176

So what's a public awareness campaign going to do to stop them?

That's the point you div. They're already comfortable being deceptive. In fact I'd wager it's chaps exactly like simplad who often fall into that category- They learn how to say all the right things and give all the right signals as a modern, liberal, progressive, woman respecting fisherbloke, and slip past a woman's radar.

You don't stop them by just generally promoting the idea of not doing rapes, any more than you can make an ad campaign about how mugging isn't nice. Just think about it- What about a public ad campaign raising awareness about how harmful stabbing people can be.
>> No. 41178 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 10:11 pm
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>>41175

>Surely it'#s more effective to teach women to say "stop, that's actually out of order" than it is to broadcast a vague and non-specific message to 50-% of the entire population which is, by the nature of its vagueness and non-specificity, going to reach abso-fucking-lutely nobody, much less the people it needs to reach?


Yeah, good luck with that. You're more or less spot on, but the way it works, it is up to a woman entirely to decide if your advances are daring (in a positive way) and arouse her interest, or if the exact same behaviour from another lad is creepy or even a criminal offence. And yet, we're somehow supposed to be able to read a lass's mind and know which it is. True, there's always a subjective element in whether or not somebody feels victimised, but a lack of clear goalposts can sometimes make it impossible to navigate that whole minefield. And by that I don't mean the obvious realisation that you don't just physically force yourself onto somebody who is saying no. Or even isn't.

You can't win as a lad. And many blokes have realised this, to the point that they're keeping any and all everyday interactions with women to a minimum, so that no situation can be misconstrued as harrassment. Which, in turn, women are starting to notice, so now you've got entire women's web forums complaining that chivalry is dead and that men no longer make an effort. What goes around comes around, I guess.
>> No. 41179 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 11:02 pm
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>>41178

I had a lass moaning at me a bit ago that she can't find anyone to do the rough CNC play she's into because they're all scared of getting in trouble if a lass turns around and accuses them of being a rapist.

I quietly agreed with her that it's a ridiculous state of affairs, while internally I could imagine the fisherpersons screaming on Twitter about how it shouldn't be permissible evidence that her Fetlife and acrobat is full of pictures and short stories about how much she loves being choke-fucked and forcefully used, and that it's harmful to victims if you're allowed to submit the dozens of text messages talking in detail about wanting you to do exactly that.

It's a terrible time to be a sexual deviant, really.
>> No. 41180 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 1:06 pm
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>>41179

> It's a terrible time to be a sexual deviant, really.

Evidently, the 70s were a better time.
>> No. 41181 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 1:29 pm
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>>41177
God, you're so gormless.

Plenty of sexual harrassment happens because the blokes doing it don't realise that's what it is. The ad you're moaning about doesn't even mention rape, so comparing it to a hypothetical "anti-mugging" ad campaign doesn't track. Harrassment often takes place without the perpetrator thinking there's anything wrong with it in the first place, not being considerate, not thinking, you know, how you live your entire life. No one pulling out a knife and going "gimme' your fucking phone!" thinks their actions are victimless, they just want someone's phone. The advert explains what it's about very clearly, it tells you it's "not banter, it's not harmless", it doesn't mention or reference rape once, but you've clearly got your own bag of spuds so you're pretending it's about something completely different.
>> No. 41182 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 2:40 pm
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>>41181

>Plenty of sexual harrassment happens because the blokes doing it don't realise that's what it is.

But a good amount of it is also not because blokes are genuinely oblivious to it being harrassment, but because the definition of what counts as harrassment has been expanded over the years, making it kind of hard to keep up on what's a no-no that month. And that also ties in with the young generation being hypersensitive to anything and everything that's even mildly offensive and which wouldn't have raised anybody's eyebrows just a generation ago.
>> No. 41183 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 2:48 pm
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I recently saw a mature woman in a blue dress, she had the most incredible thick, shaved legs and a brilliant figure. I thought to compliment how wonderful she looked but I hesitated because of this thread.

Phwoooah great legs luv
>> No. 41184 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 3:18 pm
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>>41182
>And that also ties in with the young generation being hypersensitive to anything and everything that's even mildly offensive and which wouldn't have raised anybody's eyebrows just a generation ago
You need to spend less time online nodding along to what other berks say and spend some time talking to actual people.

>but because the definition of what counts as harrassment has been expanded over the years, making it kind of hard to keep up on what's a no-no that month.
No, it's not, it's dead easy. Regardless, please make up a story about how your mate's dead sister's cousin got locked up for being nice to a woman, it'll be a laugh to read.

I can't really be arsed going back and forth because you're just going to complain and cry about nothing, then say "simp" over and over because it's a funny word you heard somewhere online.
>> No. 41185 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 3:35 pm
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>>41184

>please make up a story about how your mate's dead sister's cousin got locked up for being nice to a woman

I'm on it, I'll get back to you.

I just wonder what you get out of this battle you've been fighting on .gs the past few weeks. Why engage in angry shouting with us three here on .gs. Do you think that's going to change anything?
>> No. 41186 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 3:38 pm
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>>41184
I'm not the lad you're responding to but I'm having trouble following both of your threads of logic.

Are you saying that the legal system isn't weighted in favour of the accusations of women? Evidence proves the contrary, unfortunately, as much as I'd like to come in to this conversation as non-partisan. It's just one of those discrepancies between the genders that exists. Some blokes do take that fact and act as if they're not even allowed to look at a woman nowadays though.
>> No. 41187 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 3:39 pm
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>>41184
>>31749

>asked you out for a drink

Is harrassment according to these surveys. It could be harrassment, if it's the sixth time today, or the guy won't take no for an answer, but do you not see how fuzzy this all gets?
>> No. 41188 Anonymous
6th October 2023
Friday 4:09 pm
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>>41186

> Some blokes do take that fact and act as if they're not even allowed to look at a woman nowadays though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61263393

>A poster campaign has drawn attention to the issue of "intrusive staring" on public transport, warning travellers it can constitute sexual harassment.

Most blokes will still understand that there's a difference between glancing at a stranger in public like a normal person would in a socially appropriate way, and fixating on their boobs or arse inappropriately. But it's just another piece of the puzzle where the goalposts are being moved as to what is potentially illegal behaviour and what isn't. Because again, where do you draw the line. You're not solving the problem of where to draw the line by moving the threshold of illegal behaviour ever closer.


>>41187

I was in a club one time and a lass who was in an obvious freeloading mood that night pretty much shoved her tank topped boobs in my face at the bar and asked me "Hey, don't you want to buy me a drink". So I said, what do I get in return for it. And she said, "nothing, I'd just like a drink". You had to admire the gall, but what if I said I felt harrassed by her. And she was obviously doing more than just asking for a drink by forcing her tits on me.

She looked quite fit, and normally I would have, but something about the way she very overtly just wanted me to pay for her drink and then fuck off just rubbed me the wrong way, so I said no and just turned around and left.

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