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|>>|| No. 12576
Is cultural appropriation even possible when it comes to cooking?
|>>|| No. 12577
I don't think so. I don't get the offence over cultural appropriation at all, but particularly not when it comes to food.
|>>|| No. 12579
No, absolutely not. You might offend someone by cooking their national dish 'wrong' but 'offend' in that case just means 'slightly annoy'. Unless they're italian, in which case you'll never hear the fucking end of it.
I'm not particularly convinced cultural appropriation is anything other than blackface or literally pretending you're from somewhere you're not (I'm including all the americans who tell me they're irish here)
The point of food, art, music, dance, and all other parts of a culture should surely be to be freely shared and practiced with anyone, rather than keeping it segregated and telling people they're 'not allowed' to make rice and beans or play a zither or do flamenco if they're not from the place it originates. What a fucking boring world to live in, that you can't be influenced or inspired or even just able to replicate something wonderful you've discovered from a distant land, or more accurately in this day and age, your neighbour three doors down.
Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise. This is the closest I'll ever get to defending Jamie Oliver.
|>>|| No. 12582
Broadly agree, but I think there are also more subtle iterations of what you might call 'cultural appropriation' (though can't say I really like the term) that are valid.
I think problems arise a) when someone profits massively from something specific that they did not invent, or to take something from a culture they do not belong to, particularly if they monopolise it and prevent anyone from the original culture doing so, b) when someone deliberately cheapens the culture they're taking from for the sake of mass marketing (this actually gets on my tits, it's a long and ugly road from ingeniously simple peasant food to Mars Incorporated asking you 'whensa your Dolmio day?'), c) when a culture has been so close to eradicated that any further 'borrowing' by more pervasive cultures risks destroying or permanently distorting the original altogether, as with indigenous Americans.
Obviously, these things really need to be taken on a case by case basis. I suppose what I'm getting at is, while the ideal you're expressing is absolutely correct -- human cultures borrow from one another and develop the same ideas in different ways, and always have -- there are still considerations to be made when you introduce real world politics and power. Sometimes things can be distasteful but morally acceptable, or vice versa.
|>>|| No. 12583
I HAVE VERY FORTHRIGHT OPINIONS ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLY NICHE ISSUE AS WELL.
All this saging is a bad omen.
|>>|| No. 12584
I think the Jamaicans have suffered enough without being referred to as niche. First Marco Pierre White cooking rice and peas in a racist manner and now this.
|>>|| No. 12586
I just fucking hate the Dolmio puppets, alright? I HATE THEM AND THEIR FELT GUTS
|>>|| No. 12587
The only issue here is that it has a white persons name and picture as the branding, If you called it Nana Mojo's and had a picture of an obese black woman on the packet no one would give a shit.
|>>|| No. 12589
Audible mirth. This is a bad effort, even as a joke obese black granny name.
|>>|| No. 12590
>Unless they're italian, in which case you'll never hear the fucking end of it.
If you'd stop putting sugar in a fucking Bolognese I'd stop, but you keep insulting my ancestors, so here we all are.
|>>|| No. 12591
Isn't spaghetti bolognese an example of fusion cuisine rather than actual Italian food?
I'm sure it was created by Italians in America, the same with Germans in America creating hot dogs because Seppos didn't like all the weird würst sausages.
|>>|| No. 12592
>Obviously, these things really need to be taken on a case by case basis. I suppose what I'm getting at is, while the ideal you're expressing is absolutely correct -- human cultures borrow from one another and develop the same ideas in different ways, and always have -- there are still considerations to be made when you introduce real world politics and power. Sometimes things can be distasteful but morally acceptable, or vice versa.
I think you're spot on and I don't really disagree at all with that. Perhaps I was a bit too dramatic in my post to get that across, but you're fully right when you say it should be on a case-by-case basis.
The recent E3 thing was a perfect example. Sony got a white bloke to play japanese flute at the conference, and people were calling that appropriation. The defendants of it pointed out said white bloke was one of the only masters of the instrument alive today, and had dedicated much of his life to the craft, white or not. But either way I think the appropriation comes from a huge corporation using a niche cultural art to sell their video games. It doesn't particularity matter that Sony is a japanese company, they're still using something quite interesting and beautiful and using it to grease their infernal industrial cogs.
I feel the same way whenever UK companies exploit whatever might be left of our culture.
|>>|| No. 12593
A traditional ragu alla Bolognese is served with tagliatelle, is a relatively dry sauce and is usually made with a mix of meats. Spaghetti Bolognese was adapted for English tastes and the limited availability of Italian ingredients back in the 70s.
|>>|| No. 12594
Spag Bol is not even really italian to start with, so by pointing that out you've sort of short yourself in the foot.
There's something insidious about the 'proper' way to make any italian food, that somehow even manages to surpass the French. A frenchman might have an opinion on the best way to make Beef Bourginon, but he understands that even within his own country there is more than one way to make it. Italians for some reason love to shout at you about how IT'S NOT CARBONARA IF YOU PUT GARLIC IN IT! Which is just a little bit silly, especially when it's said the way that an italian grandma says it, with such christ-powered malice and conviction.
I understand that there is cause to be annoyed when someone puts cream in carbonara or nestles a dollop of sauce on top of plain, soft spaghetti but the sheer exacting traditionalism of following 'THE' recipe is mental, particularly when every italian has their own recipe anyway, and obviously theirs is the only correct one.
I had to hear this shite quite often from an italian cook who I used to work with, so maybe I'm just fed up of it because of her (probably, tbh). Eventually I got sick of it and couldn't wait for every Sunday to roll around so I could criticise her Yorkshire puds. "no no, this is not a Yorkshire! This is a cake! My grandmother is rolling in her grave!" and all the shit I'd hear from her if I dared look at a meatball the wrong way.
I didn't really notice this post becoming a rant, but there you go. Blame Stefania.
|>>|| No. 12595
>It doesn't particularity matter that Sony is a japanese company, they're still using something quite interesting and beautiful and using it to grease their infernal industrial cogs.
That has nothing to do with cultural appropriation then, that is you considering something to be somehow sacred. You are just the millennial equivalent of old people complaining about shops being open on Sunday. Come to think of it most cultural appropriation arguments are.
|>>|| No. 12596
Just try asking a bunch of northerners what these things are called. The arguments make Northern Irish politics look reasonable.
|>>|| No. 12597
Shit like this puts me in mind of the thing about language evolving. Every time you moan about some silly word the young 'uns are using nowadays some smart arse points out how language evolves and that's just a new meaning for the word etc- 99% of people recognise that creamy, cheesy ham and mushroom sauce to be what carbonara means. So that's what a carbonara is.
|>>|| No. 12598
I'm in agreement with you despite my post perhaps not sounding that way. I was trying to say that even though the Sony thing wasn't cultural appropriation, it's still a bit naff.
|>>|| No. 12599
I feel a similar way about the treatment Disney films and other general Hollywood rubbish gives to traditional fairy tales and folklore.
I can hardly exactly say I find it offensive, but you just know there are plenty of sheltered Yanks out there who literally think that's what European history was like. Then they come to visit the real place and expect the continent to basically be a theme park full of majestic castles and unspoiled forest.
|>>|| No. 12601
That was otherlad, M7, I knew what you were getting at.
I don't know why, it's important to me for you to know.
She does blow that Muppets pig out of the water, you have to admit.
|>>|| No. 12602
Why is this site so fucking white? Posts about political correctness gone mad are now being made on /nom/ of all places. I'm so fucking bored of this. The mods should do something. Wordfilter cultural appropriation to circus tricks or something.
|>>|| No. 12605
Yes, which makes it doubly insulting, and the joke better.
Although clearly not obvious enough to not fly straight over >>12594's head. Mamma mia!
|>>|| No. 12606
I feel stupid now for not realising it was a joke, but I do assume any Italian comment about traditional recipes is fully sincere after a lifetime of working with italian chefs.
Anyway, I'm going to English up a pot of sacrificial penne just to get back at you. It's literally going to be mush. I might even put it in the slow cooker.
|>>|| No. 12607
My mate told me the other day about "curry pasta", which is a meal he's invented involving a jar of Patak's and some fusilli. I think we can both look past our differences in this thread and agree that eating his creation willingly is beyond the fucking pale.
|>>|| No. 12609
Fucking hell that's distressing.
I suspect that even the best curry in the world would taste decidedly 'council' mixed with pasta, let alone Patak's.
I've seen a housemate years ago regularly make a similarly themed stir fry. It was diced chicken breast that she seemed to cook for about 20 minutes in the pan, a bag of beansprouts, some frozen 'stir fry veg mix' and about half a litre of chip shop curry sauce.
Smelled great obviously, but I never dared try it.
|>>|| No. 12614
I think I could cope with pasta and curry, but I don't think I could mix curry with cheddar cheese.
|>>|| No. 12617
That's true, she's terrified of hot foods, even the mildest chicken tikka you can imagine.
|>>|| No. 12618
I've never really understood the appeal of hot curries. It might just be the ones I've tried but it largely seems like it's adding heat just for the sake of it as it doesn't add much to the flavour.
|>>|| No. 12621
So it's more like a dick waving contest? Machismo about how much heat you can tolerate?
|>>|| No. 12622
For some maybe. For me it is more like chasing the dragon. I want to feel that perfect heat like I did the first time.
|>>|| No. 12623
The sensation of heat in the mouth releases endorphins in the body, which as I'm sure you know is something a lot of people enjoy.
There's probably some element of macho bollocks for some people, but I think others like myself just enjoy the sensation.
|>>|| No. 12624
Also, different chillis do add lots of flavour, but you don't tend to notice it until you build up tolerance. One of my favourite snacks is just whole raw Birdseye chillies. It was something an Indian lad I worked with used to do all the time so I appropriated it off him. Chillies taste fantastic though, I think.
|>>|| No. 12625
>It was something an Indian lad I worked with used to do all the time so I appropriated it off him.
Insidious casual racism is taking over.
|>>|| No. 12626
This is why I don't like eating spicy foods around people, because I'm worried It will appear as though I'm trying to look "hard". My entire personality exists around my laissez-fair outlook and it's a lot of effort to maintain that.
|>>|| No. 12627
>My entire personality exists around my laissez-fair outlook and it's a lot of effort to maintain that.
I would think that eating a sufficiently spicy curry while exhibiting no outward effects from it would bolster that image.
|>>|| No. 12629
>The chef and entrepreneur Levi Roots has described Jamie Oliver’s decision to launch a jerk rice dish as a mistake, as a row over cultural appropriation widened.
>Oliver was called out on the product by the shadow equalities minister, Dawn Butler, the daughter of Jamaican immigrants, who questioned whether the chef knew what jerk was. His “punchy” jerk rice dish contains garlic, ginger and jalapeños, whereas traditional jerk seasoning – which was developed by escaped African slaves on the Caribbean island – relies principally on two ingredients: allspice and scotch bonnet peppers.
>During his appearance on ITV’s Good Morning Britain on Monday, Roots said he had already shown Oliver how to make “the real deal” jerk chicken during a segment for Oliver’s YouTube channel filmed several years ago. Roots said: “I do think it was a mistake by Jamie – either by him or by his team. Maybe he wasn’t actually involved in this,” he said.
Yet if you look at the recipe for what Oliver and Roots cooked together:
>3 cm piece fresh ginger , peeled
>2 spring onions , trimmed and finely sliced
>1 jalapeno chilli , finely sliced
Remember, kids. Calling a recipe 'jerk' even if it includes untraditional ingredients is fine if Levi Roots stands to gain from it. Calling a recipe 'jerk' with untraditional ingredients if Levi Roots doesn't stand to gain from it is a 'mistake'.
|>>|| No. 12630
You're full of shit mate. Their recipe also contains the ingredients said to be the distinguishing requirement:
>1 tablespoon allspice berries
>2 scotch bonnet chillies
Levi said in 2016 when cooking the recipe that you can't call it jerk without allspice (though he uses the West Indian term pimento).
|>>|| No. 12631
Surely this becoming national news is going to increase sales of the bloody rice beyond their most optimistic of hopes. That'll learn 'em.
|>>|| No. 12632
Nobody complains when African Uncle Ben profits off Latin American Mexican rice. It's one rule for POC, and another for poor old whitey.
|>>|| No. 12633
>he uses the West Indian term pimento
Oh my days. Pimento isn't a spice. Pimento is a pepper. Have a word with yourself, lad. You watch a Levi Roots video and all of a sudden you're an expert on Jamaican cuisine. Seriously, you need to sort yourself out. Using Levi Roots as your go-to Jamaican, just like using David Baddiel as your go-to Jew for all matters anti-Semitic. It's bad enough referring to him as West Indian; calling them Indians is derogatory to the extreme. I bet you call Native Americans 'Red Indians' too, you're that backwards. I bet instead of dub music you listen to scrub music because that's all you are, a scrub. Sitting there being a scrub and sucking your teeth like a bad man.
|>>|| No. 12634
I'm sure he means pimenta.
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>Allspice, also called pimenta,[a] Jamaica pimenta, or myrtle pepper, is the dried unripe fruit (berries, used as a spice) of Pimenta dioica
|>>|| No. 12636
I know full well he does, but it was such a rookie mistake to make. The kind of thing a scrub would say. I bet he also boasts to people about how he used to eat at Nando's before it was popular and he was the only white boy in there.
|>>|| No. 12637
I'd prefer to think of cultural appropriation as complete bollocks, but then you've got whitey reading a sentence on Wikipedia and thinking he can then educate natives how to speak their language.
Why are you living in a TLC song?
|>>|| No. 12638
Fucking hell, you lot take your pimintos seriously don't you
|>>|| No. 12641
I would have put money on that being a destiny's child song. In fact, I was not aware they were different groups until this very moment.
|>>|| No. 12644
Genuinely not being funny but I was with a black girl once and from certain angles in bed her face did look like it could be a belong to a black bloke and I found I had to focus on her hair. I'll preempt the inevitable jokes; she was most definitely a lady. Anyway why have people suddenly started complaining about this sort of thing? Has Lloyd Grossman been pilloried yet for not actually being of Thai or Italian ethnicity? I swear it's become a perverse contest to see who can be the most offended as some sort of racially aware moral one-upmanship.
|>>|| No. 12645
Fuck white people with dreadlocks.
I don't give a shit about food, I'll eat what the fuck I like.
|>>|| No. 12646
Everyone has a mix of features we perceive as masculine and feminine, I suppose. Throw in race as a factor, where we may be less familiar, and you get those kind of perceptions.
Reminds me a bit of how people aren't as good at guessing age outside their own race (or at least, the race of the people they see the most), because we don't have as much of mental bank of the more subtle features to draw from.
|>>|| No. 12647
People just like to complain these days. It's sort of become a bit of the hobby, being offended on the internet. I think it gives them a sense of community and belonging. Apparently Gordon Ramsay's new show is racist because he's going around the globe learning about various styles of cooking before competing with a local chef to make one of their speciality dishes.
I give it a few days before someone complains about the lack of black contestants in this year's Bake Off.
|>>|| No. 12648
There are three brown ones and a Malaysian transsexual. They'll be alright.
|>>|| No. 12649
>three brown ones
I count two. Antony and Rahul. Darkest after that is Ruby but I think she's just caked in foundation.
|>>|| No. 12651
She doesn't have the great big desi Concorde nose. Pretty sure it's foundation; her face looks a lot oranger than the rest of her.
|>>|| No. 12652
And I'm pretty sure when she describes being part of an Indian family she's not recounting how she learned to apply makeup.
|>>|| No. 12653
Being Indian doesn't necessarily mean you're brown. Would we say that Idris Elba must be white because he's British?
|>>|| No. 12657
> Reminds me a bit of how people aren't as good at guessing age outside their own race (or at least, the race of the people they see the most), because we don't have as much of mental bank of the more subtle features to draw from.
That's my excuse, officer.
|>>|| No. 12658
Am I the only one that thinks cultural appropriation is always okay?
Not only okay, but an actual complement. If somebody is trying to copy another culture, like the Dolmio shit, than It's a direct compliment to the host of the culture that people are trying to mimic your shit. Even if they do it badly.
I don't get all offended when the yanks get shit faced for St. Paddy's day while throwing on leprechaun hats and all. People need to quit their bitching.
|>>|| No. 12659
>If somebody is trying to copy another culture, like the Dolmio shit
Dolmio was originally made by Italians in Australia. Just be glad they didn't try putting Vegemite or pea soup in it.
|>>|| No. 12662
It's not always OK. Al Jolson was a mensch and did a great service to the many black performers he worked with, but his blackface performances are obviously unacceptable to modern audiences.
|>>|| No. 12663
It seems a strange standard to hold him to really. Blackface wasn't considered racist at the time he wasn't doing it to be racist, and the American black community of the time considered him something of a hero for doing it. If anything it throws doubt on taking such an arbitrary stance on the matter (blackface=racism). I'm certainly not about to protest for my right to black face, but in his time blackface could be used as a device to draw attention to black social causes rather than just to ridicule them.
Of course I doubt you can deliver the history lesson necessary to everyone to make them appreciate what he was doing and the virtues of blackface, and I doubt there is anyone who has investment in making that case.
|>>|| No. 12664
There's a reasonable case to be made that Jolson's blackface performances were well-intentioned and helped introduce segregated white audiences to black culture, but it's absolutely clear that blackface is unacceptable today. In a modern context, adopting someone else's racial identity for entertainment is blatantly disrespectful and implicitly racist.
The arguments over Jamie Oliver's rice seem a bit silly, but they differ from blackface in degree rather than type. Calling something "jerk" that is nothing of the sort implies a casual disregard for Jamaican culture.
I find this image to be profoundly irritating, and I haven't suffered from the legacy of centuries of slavery and oppression. While I have no time for people who want to get offended on someone else's behalf, I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to anyone who says that their own culture is being disrespected.
|>>|| No. 12665
>I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to anyone who says that their own culture is being disrespected.
I agree with most of your post but this conclusion I consider to be the path to madness. It is built on the premise that the individual shouldn't making a judgement for themselves on events they have not directly experienced themselves but defer to others. (Stop me if you feel that is a strawman but I think that is a fair analysis).
It invites two villains into a Diarchy, the terminally offended, whose victim complex means they can infer and construct a narrative of discrimination out of nearly anything. And the cultural apologist, who will insist that we not hold others to the stands that we hold ourselves.
Both have been on the rise in strength lately in the public arena, and I think it is the willingness to defer our own judgement and take their word that has empowered them.
|>>|| No. 12666
>it's absolutely clear that blackface is unacceptable today
You know the quote that goes along with this image, presumably? I would respectfully suggest you are thinking in, if you'll forgive the pun, unhelpfully black and white terms.
|>>|| No. 12667
I don't think we have to bow to the whims of the loudest and unreasonable voices, but I think we should at least listen when people respectfully say "this is hurtful to me". I don't think I am qualified to make a judgement on many things. I don't know what it's like to be a woman or an ethnic minority. I've only experienced life through the prism of being a straight-ish white man. My world view is blinkered in all sorts of ways that are imperceptible to me.
I do know that many people who talk about people like me often get it badly wrong. I know that when I read about my own industry in the newspaper, it's usually uninformed bollocks. I see all sorts of people talking absolute shite on social media about stuff that I'm a bit of an expert on. I try to remain open to the possibility that my opinions of stuff I'm not massively well informed about might be equally wrong. On a huge range of social and cultural issues, I just don't have the background knowledge to say anything with any degree of confidence.
I don't know the quote, but my understanding is that the character you're referring to is a parody; the joke only works because of the cultural unacceptability of blackface. I'm happy to discuss the issue further if you'd like to elaborate on your point.
|>>|| No. 12669
> course I doubt you can deliver the history lesson necessary to everyone to make them appreciate what he was doing and the virtues of blackface, and I doubt there is anyone who has investment in making that case.
It's just one little symptom of a huge problem.
In the present day there are a great number of forces, some intentional and some not, moving to re-write, censor or forget history. And a the main thrust of that is to re-frame everything in black-and-white (sorry) terms. And part of this is just simple human nature.
Every historical figure is now evil or a saint. Few people seem able or willing to comprehend that other people could be capable of both good and bad actions, just as few people are willing to believe that they themselves could be capable of doing evil were they to find themselves in the same situation.
>adopting someone else's racial identity for entertainment is blatantly disrespectful and implicitly racist.
Can we make an exception where the entertainment is a joke about being racist?
|>>|| No. 12670
>adopting someone else's racial identity for entertainment is blatantly disrespectful and implicitly racist.
Yes it is, and racism is okay, for as long as It's funny enough, and the audience has a sense of humor. The problem is when there hyper sensitive types who can't take a joke. The film is relevant, I'd recommend it, for as long as you can laugh at the piss taking of a sub section of white Western culture.
>I haven't suffered from the legacy of centuries of slavery and oppression
Chances are historically, your race/ethnicity has at at least one point in time. Why don't we see the Irish or the Scottish complaining about oppression I wonder, their historic slavery is hardly a secret. Everyone has seen Brave Heart right? You don't see them throwing on a teary at the existence of Willy in the Simpsons being a cliche Scotsman.
The truth is, the real oppression hasn't really been between races throughout history, It has been between the wealthy and powerful minority, and the poverty stricken toothless majority. I feel like people are slowly trying to re-write history to "white/men=bad". If people start believing that trollop, it won't end well. We don't need to give white people collectively a reason to feel scared or angry. And let's not assume that the lives of white men are necessarily better than other sexes and races. What happened to human beings laughing to themselves, fuck me.
|>>|| No. 12671
The problem with race is that the civil war is a defining part of the story of America's creation as a nation. They're never going to get over it, it would be like asking us to get over not liking the French, or telling the Germans they're allowed to be militaristic again.
Can't shake the feeling America is exporting their shit race relations to the rest of the English-speaking world. I always get the impression that there's a big undertone of that when you see British discussion of race, that there's more outrage over George Wallace than Enoch Powell. People getting angry about colonialism, statues of Rhodes, whatever - fair enough, I mean, we actually did that, that's our history of doing not very nice things. But slavery and segregation in the South of the USA? What were Brits supposed to do, politely ask Canada to burn the White House down a second time?
|>>|| No. 12672
>What were Brits supposed to do, politely ask Canada to burn the White House down a second time?
Never say never.
|>>|| No. 12673
Do you really watch the film 'White Chicks' and think, 'Oh no, my race is under attack, this will fuel more of that widespread anti-white violence'? Because that's incredibly insecure.
|>>|| No. 12675
Some of that just seemed to be black people in early film rather than a negative potrail of them which makes me question the point of the montage, is it the role they played potentially reflecting the reality of the time which he took grevance with? That isn't racist to portray that's just uncomfortable history.
|>>|| No. 12676
I think the point he's making is that Hollywood spent decades producing overtly racist propaganda, depicting black people as essentially subhuman. The grinning picaninnies, the cannibals with bones through their noses, the docile house negroes. Hollywood wasn't merely passively portraying the attitudes of the time, but playing an active role in perpetuating racist attitudes and justifying the worst excesses of a systematically racist society. Any discussion of how the media portrays race can only be meaningful if it's informed by that context.
|>>|| No. 12677
> Hollywood spent decades producing overtly racist propaganda, depicting black people as essentially subhuman. The grinning picaninnies, the cannibals with bones through their noses
For a person talking about informed context you don’t seem to know the context of what you are talking about.
That has literally nothing to do with Africans, that is a portrayal of the people of Papua New Guinea. And It is accurate, it was certainly accurate in the 1940s and 50s when that portrayal was most prevalent after exposure to them by Americans from the second world war, The gentlemen in the picture is described by Wikipedia as “a resident of Boga-Boga” a description I'm sure you would presume to be racist.
There is a disease called Kuru that caused an epidemic in the late 50s in Papua New Guinea, it is spread by eating the brains of the infected, I presume that is explanatory enough.
I’m sure ignorant racists started twisting it into an attack on the black people of America, and the black people of America now presume it is an attack on them, so you can hardly be blamed for being swept along by the idea it is an attack on them.
It is weird for us to accept in the west because it seems like ancient history to us, or at least something of the times of Magellan but there are still Stone Age societies in the world, in Asia, the Americas and Africa. And In the early 20th century there were a lot of them, there obviously was a lot of racial prejudice at the time but the idea of the tribesman shaking a spear and chasing off outsiders isn’t some racist propaganda, it is something that still happens.
|>>|| No. 12678
The entirety of that post highlighted the ridiculousness of being offended by such things. Did you even read it?
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